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View Full Version : Does Protection From Evil... (D&D 3.5)



Alaris
2010-07-06, 07:31 PM
One of my players brought me a question that will determine if he takes a specific feat or not.

Does Protection from Evil block Suggestion?

The spell is a mental control spell, but doesn't seem to be ongoing in the sense of allowing further orders. I'm trying to determine if it would... but any ideas on your end? Arguments for or against?

Thanks, Playground!

JeminiZero
2010-07-06, 07:52 PM
The exact wording given here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Protection_from_Evil) is:


The barrier blocks any attempt ... to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person).

Whether or not Suggestion counts as ongoing control is not important. Blocking ongoing control is only PART of the overall effect of blocking ANY attempt to exercise mental control over the creature.

For simple one off questions like these you might try the RAW thread.

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 07:54 PM
Debatably no. Suggestion doesn't give ongoing control like Dominate or Charm does. Its like a 1 time push, rather than a continuous drive.

The only counter-arguement I can think of is that the task suggested isn't something that can be performed instantaneously, and thus its "ongoing", but I've also had DMs rule that a dominated character who receives a Prot Evil mid-Dominate is still forced to carry out their last command to the best of their ability. Just because you turn a car off doesn't mean that it stops rolling.

So, yea, my best interpretation is that no, it doesn't block Suggestion on the grounds that its only a 1-time exertion of will, not ongoing control.

The Glyphstone
2010-07-06, 08:10 PM
Debatably no. Suggestion doesn't give ongoing control like Dominate or Charm does. Its like a 1 time push, rather than a continuous drive.

The only counter-arguement I can think of is that the task suggested isn't something that can be performed instantaneously, and thus its "ongoing", but I've also had DMs rule that a dominated character who receives a Prot Evil mid-Dominate is still forced to carry out their last command to the best of their ability. Just because you turn a car off doesn't mean that it stops rolling.
So, yea, my best interpretation is that no, it doesn't block Suggestion on the grounds that its only a 1-time exertion of will, not ongoing control.

See, now that's just unfair really...Pro. Evil in mid-Dominate isn't turning off the car, it's being shoved into the passenger's seat mid-drive then managing to grab control of the steering wheel again. Just because someone was driving the car for you for a few minutes doesn't mean you have to now replan your trip to their intended destination.

I'm going to fall behind the 'It does', because Suggestion is an Enchantment (Compulsion) and it does have a duration (1 hour/level or until completed), though you can't change the orders once given, so the 'ongoing' part is iffy.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-06, 08:13 PM
Any attempt to excise mental control.

It doesn't matter if it is ongoing. If you go and do a magical compulsion on the person, it's blocked.

It doesn't "block a long-lasting effect", it blocks the control from reaching you at all.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-06, 09:37 PM
Are fear effects mental control? It's not like you're ordering the victim to run away: they just are.

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 09:42 PM
No, fear is [Mind Affecting] but not any sort of control.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-06, 09:43 PM
Ah, but is Confusion or Insanity mental control? The caster has no control over what the victim does...

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 09:45 PM
Nope, neither of those two abilities are mental control. The caster can't dictate the actions of the target, they simply do whatever the table tells them to do.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 10:01 PM
Does Protection from Evil block Suggestion?

I'm with the Yes camp on this one.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-06, 10:02 PM
I'm with the Yes camp on this one.

As am I. I can't see any reason it wouldn't so far.

Optimystik
2010-07-06, 10:06 PM
Yes Suggestion, no Confusion.

Runestar
2010-07-06, 10:51 PM
If you go with the 3.0 FAQ, no, spells such as suggestion, insanity and irresistable dance are not blocked, because they do not involve ongoing control.

The 3.5 FAQ entry is even more ridiculous, because its protection extends even to spells such as daze and sleep. :smallsigh:

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 10:53 PM
And people wonder why the Sage has no cred...

Mystic Muse
2010-07-06, 10:56 PM
And people wonder why the Sage has no cred...

I can't speak for others, but I know why he has no cred.

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 10:57 PM
I can't speak for others, but I know why he has no cred.

Because he's drunk? It's the drinking, isn't it? I knew we should've made him go through AA.

Mystic Muse
2010-07-06, 11:00 PM
Because he's drunk? It's the drinking, isn't it? I knew we should've made him go through AA.

:smallsigh: of course not. It's because he's a Twilight fanthing.

I say thing because he's also an Alien. And not the cute kind either. The ones from the Alien series that burst out of your chest.

This is in addition to the fact that he's the unholy Son of Gnorga and Papa Smurf. I'm not trying to insult Twilight here. I just wanted to come up something utterly ridiculous.

Runestar
2010-07-06, 11:06 PM
For reference, here are the 2 separate entries.

3.0 FAQ

The second function of the protection from evil spell blocks any attempt to possess the warded creature or to exercise mental control over the creature. What, exactly, counts as mental control?

“Mental control” includes all spells of the school of Enchantment that have the Charm subschool, such as animal friendship, charm person, and charm monster. It also includes some Enchantment spells of the Compulsion subschool if those spells grant the caster ongoing control over the subject; such spells include dominate person and dominate monster.

Compulsions that merely dictate the subject’s action at the time the spell takes effect are not blocked. Such spells include command, hold person, geas/quest, hypnotism, insanity, Otto’s irresistible dance, random action, suggestion, and zone of truth.

And the 3.5 version (make sure you have nothing in your mouth).

What exactly does the second effect of protection from evil do, anyway?

The Sage feels your pain. While the first and third effects of protection from evil are relatively straightforward, the second is less clear. The key phrase that defines this particular effect of the spell is as follows: “ . . . the barrier blocks any attempt to . . . exercise mental control over the creature
(including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject . . .).”

(The spell also blocks attempts to possess the creature, but effects that accomplish this are so few as to barely be worth mentioning.) The first part of this phrase describes the basic criteria by which the DM should judge protection from evil’s effect: If the incoming effect attempts to exercise mental control over the creature, protection from evil likely suppresses that effect.

The parenthetical portion of the phrase provides two specific examples (pointed, obviously, at rules elements of the PH) to help judge what exactly is meant by that: 1. Enchantment (charm) effects. Simple enough—protection from evil automatically suppresses any enchantment (charm) effect, such as charm person or enthrall.

2. Enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject. This is where adjudication gets trickier, because you have to decide what “ongoing control” means. The Sage recommends a broad definition, which includes any non-instantaneous effect that prevents the target from exercising full control over its own actions.

Examples would include the obvious (such as command or dominate person), but also the less obvious, such as daze, sleep, and Tasha’s hideous laughter. Such effects would be suppressed for as long as protection from evil lasts on the target.

There are still plenty of enchantment (compulsion) effects that don’t grant the caster ongoing control over the subject. Heroism, crushing despair, mind fog, power word blind, rage, and touch of idiocy are examples. Protection from evil has no effect on such spells.

But what about mental control effects that aren’t enchantment effects, such as psionics? In such cases, the DM must use the rules and his own best judgment in concert to adjudicate the effect. Psionic powers of the telepathy discipline are the equivalent of enchantment spells, for example, and thus are affected in the same way. Nonspell effects that closely mimic enchantment spells should be treated as if they were spells of the appropriate subschool (charm or compulsion).

grarrrg
2010-07-06, 11:14 PM
Does Protection from Evil block Suggestion?


That all depends, does Suggestion target?
Protection does four things:
Prevents Damage from X
Cannot be Enchanted by X
Cannot be Blocked by X
Cannot be Targeted by X

Just remember DEBT and you'll be fine.:biggrin:

Keld Denar
2010-07-06, 11:16 PM
Ewwwww, you just got MtG in my D&D! Take it out! Take it out!

Coidzor
2010-07-06, 11:16 PM
Ewwwww, you just got MtG in my D&D! Take it out! Take it out!

That's what she said!

The Glyphstone
2010-07-06, 11:21 PM
That's what she said!

"Got protection?"
"Against what color?"

:smallbiggrin:

lesser_minion
2010-07-07, 07:08 AM
I would argue yes -- the suggestion does remain there, so it could be thought of as ongoing mental control.

Additionally, since the mental control is only exercised at casting, it would also fail to have any effect once the protection from evil ends.

However, I wouldn't call it clear cut.