4E Reflex/Line of Effect issues...

[Fenrazer]

I'm not sure whether this has been discussed or not, but say I were attacking a square that somebody is in with Burning Flux, which attacks Reflex. If the person who is being attacked is missed, does that mean they got out of the way? And if it DOES miss, then does that mean they moved out of the range of the blast? How is this determined?

EDIT: also, does concealment matter against an area power? If I have line of effect to the square that somebody is in, but they have concealment, does that matter?

[Mystic Muse]

How is this determined?

By rule of Cool.

Alternatively, ask your DM.

[Excession]

Perhaps the blast doesn't fill the entire 5-foot cube, and they just ducked.

[Fenrazer]

Got it! Alternatively...Does it say anything concerning attacking while moving? I could not find anything that covers that, so I feel it should be allowed, but my DM and I are in a debate. I say that if its not covered that it should be allowed, and he says that if it is not covered by the rules that it is not allowed. Very rules heavy. Let me know.

[NecroRebel]

There's no rules that say that they move aside and out of the area of the blast. They just don't get hit by the attack. What exactly that means happened isn't clear, but it probably was due to them managing to duck into a dip in the earth or hollow in the wall, or maybe they got their shield between the blast's center and their body, or perhaps they just managed to roll with it just right so that it didn't actually hurt them, or somehow they saw small gaps in the explosion and managed to cunningly dodge through them.

At higher levels, it might even mean that they temporarily stepped into another dimension just as they were about to be burned. Really, it doesn't matter how they did it, just that they did it. This issue has been around for all editions of D&D AFAIK, since there's always been explosion-type attacks that could be dodged even if it's going off right next to you, and the only real way to deal with it within the rules is to basically handwave it.



Edit: Attacking while moving is the purview of some specific powers. Normally, moving takes a move action and attacking takes a standard action, and you can't "pause" a move action mid-move in order to take your standard action, so unless you have a power that lets you move then attack, attacking while moving isn't possible.

[Fenrazer]

Attacking while moving is the purview of some specific powers. Normally, moving takes a move action and attacking takes a standard action, and you can't "pause" a move action mid-move in order to take your standard action, so unless you have a power that lets you move then attack, attacking while moving isn't possible.

Understood. I wasn't sure. I couldn't find anywhere that it says you cannot pause, but I didn't see it as pausing but more like firing on the run, like in the action films where the guy shoots a gun while running and jumping.

[Meta]

Understood. I wasn't sure. I couldn't find anywhere that it says you cannot pause, but I didn't see it as pausing but more like firing on the run, like in the action films where the guy shoots a gun while running and jumping.

By RAW, the only action that can you can take during other actions is a free action

[Fenrazer]

Got er captain! Thank you very much.

EDIT: Any feedback or input on the Line of Effect stuff?

[Thajocoth]

By RAW, the only action that can you can take during other actions is a free action

Well, and a No Action... But that's splitting hairs...

[NecroRebel]

EDIT: Any feedback or input on the Line of Effect stuff?

Probably would've been more efficient to put that in your last post in the thread instead of the first, since people tend to skip over the original once they've already answered the questions therein... :smalltongue:

Anyway, note that we are, very specifically, talking about concealment here, and not cover. On page 281 of Player's Handbook 1, it says that concealment applies only to melee and ranged attacks. Bursts and blasts Close and area attacks are not melee or ranged attacks, thus concealment doesn't apply to them. Cover, on the other hand, does, as is explained on page 280.

[Meta]

Well, and a No Action... But that's splitting hairs...

Good catch, that is correct. No actions really need to be explained more in upcoming rules updates. As far as I know, these can be taken even while unconscious and since attacks granted by a warlord for instance don't say "one ally may make an MBA as a free action" but rather "one ally may make aN MBA." Well I'm sure you can see the silliness

[Meta]

Probably would've been more efficient to put that in your last post in the thread instead of the first, since people tend to skip over the original once they've already answered the questions therein... :smalltongue:

Anyway, note that we are, very specifically, talking about concealment here, and not cover. On page 281 of Player's Handbook 1, it says that concealment applies only to melee and ranged attacks. Bursts and blasts are not melee or ranged attacks, thus concealment doesn't apply to them. Cover, on the other hand, does, as is explained on page 280.

Ahh there's a feat that let's bursts and blasts ignore cover and i just read over it... PHB 3 maybe?

[Mando Knight]

Perhaps the blast doesn't fill the entire 5-foot cube, and they just ducked.

Or they dodge into an interdimensional void for the exact time it takes for the attack to blast through.

Or, more boringly, if it's a Fighter, for example, he raises his shield just in time and the blast flows around it.

[Gralamin]

Got er captain! Thank you very much.

EDIT: Any feedback or input on the Line of Effect stuff?

Concealment is ignored by Area and Close powers (See Concealment p281). In addition, with such powers, Cover is determined from the origin square (The "Middle" of an area, or your square for a close.

[NecroRebel]

Ahh there's a feat that let's bursts and blasts ignore cover and i just read over it... PHB 3 maybe?

Well, specific trumps general, and a feat lets you do something that you couldn't otherwise. So I'm not quite sure what your point is... Normally, cover applies to area and close attacks. Feats and powers ignoring that doesn't change the general rule.

[Meta]

Well, specific trumps general, and a feat lets you do something that you couldn't otherwise. So I'm not quite sure what your point is... Normally, cover applies to area and close attacks. Feats and powers ignoring that doesn't change the general rule.

Ohh, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, you were spot on, I was helping the OP if he wanted to get around that pesky cover

[NecroRebel]

Ohh, I wasn't trying to prove you wrong, you were spot on, I was helping the OP if he wanted to get around that pesky cover

Ah. My mistake then; I assumed you were taking umbrage of some sort with my statement :smallredface:

[Fenrazer]

So should zone be treated the same as area?

EDIT: NOOB question. Nevermind. =-]

[Meta]

Ah. My mistake then; I assumed you were taking umbrage of some sort with my statement :smallredface:

Not a problem sir, twas good teamwork methinks

[Kurald Galain]

say I were attacking a square that somebody is in with Burning Flux, which attacks Reflex. If the person who is being attacked is missed, does that mean they got out of the way?
No. It means that you have a huge explosion and a big smoke cloud with pieces of scenery flying everywhere, and then when the smoke clears the bad guy is still standing there completely unharmed. Just like in DBZ :smallbiggrin:



EDIT: also, does concealment matter against an area power? If I have line of effect to the square that somebody is in, but they have concealment, does that matter?
No. All blast and burst powers ignore concealment and total concealment. Cover is another matter, and is calculated from the origin square of the blast or burst. Yes, you can hit somebody that is not in your line of effect, as long as there's LOE from the origin square, so you can hit people around the corner in this way.