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FullofQuestions
2010-07-06, 11:47 PM
I have a gamer that says since the book does not say when you attack that you can do it while moving. I am pretty sure the book considers an attack and a move two different things to do at two different times. What do you have to say?

FullofQuestions
2010-07-06, 11:49 PM
I forgot to mention this is DnD 4E

Kylarra
2010-07-06, 11:53 PM
They are two distinct actions. There are certain powers that allow you to move and then attack, but as a general rule, they are distinctly different. You don't get to pause a move action to attack and then resume your move action.

Meta
2010-07-06, 11:54 PM
I forgot to mention this is DnD 4E

You can not attack in the middle of a movement unless the power states specifically that you can or the attack is a free action as free actions can be taken at any time

NecroRebel
2010-07-07, 12:00 AM
I suspect that your player goes under the name Fenrazer here, since someone posted about this exact question in this other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159120) :smallsmile:

Anyway, as I said there, the ability to move then attack then move is something that is covered by specific powers. The Walk, Run, Shift, and Crawl actions (basically, the ones that cover basic movement) also do not allow you to take an action to attack during the middle of them, and since you basically can't move otherwise unless you have a power that says you can, and you can't interrupt those powers unless they say you can either, you can't.

So, except for specific exceptions, you can't attack in the middle of a move. Even most powers that are exceptions are stuff like Evasive Strike (PHB1 pg 105) that let you move or shift as part of the standard action for the attack, so it's more like you move using your move action, then use the movement-enabling power as your standard after the move is entirely finished.

Meta
2010-07-07, 12:18 AM
I suspect that your player goes under the name Fenrazer here, since someone posted about this exact question in this other thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=159120) :smallsmile:

Anyway, as I said there, the ability to move then attack then move is something that is covered by specific powers. The Walk, Run, Shift, and Crawl actions (basically, the ones that cover basic movement) also do not allow you to take an action to attack during the middle of them, and since you basically can't move otherwise unless you have a power that says you can, and you can't interrupt those powers unless they say you can either, you can't.

So, except for specific exceptions, you can't attack in the middle of a move. Even most powers that are exceptions are stuff like Evasive Strike (PHB1 pg 105) that let you move or shift as part of the standard action for the attack, so it's more like you move using your move action, then use the movement-enabling power as your standard after the move is entirely finished.

Phoenix Dance Monk Attack 25
Daily. Fire, Implement, Psionic, Radiant
Standard Action
Melee 1
Effect: You shift your speed and make the following attack
once against each enemy you move adjacent to during the shift.
Target: One enemy
Attack: Dexterity vs. Fortitude Hit: 3d10+ Dexterity modifier damage, and you knock the target prone.
Miss: Half damage. Effect: The target takes fire and radiant damage equal to 5+ your Strength modifier.

Just an example that there are a few that let you attack mid-move

FullofQuestions
2010-07-07, 12:52 AM
First off, I would like to apologize. I did not realize my buddy had posted the same question, more or less.

Secondly, I would like to thank everyone for their answers.

Meta
2010-07-07, 01:55 AM
First off, I would like to apologize. I did not realize my buddy had posted the same question, more or less.

Secondly, I would like to thank everyone for their answers.

You're quite welcome. And I thought of one interesting caveat that would be a flavorful and entertaining way to attack on the run. If you readied an action as something like "I will use X power when I enter Y square" and then had an ally push, slide, pull you, your attack would be resolved as soon as you hit that square during the middle of that movement. I have never seen this but I believe RAW supports it

NecroRebel
2010-07-07, 02:20 AM
You're quite welcome. And I thought of one interesting caveat that would be a flavorful and entertaining way to attack on the run. If you readied an action as something like "I will use X power when I enter Y square" and then had an ally push, slide, pull you, your attack would be resolved as soon as you hit that square during the middle of that movement. I have never seen this but I believe RAW supports it

The only problem I see with that is that completing readied actions is an immediate reaction, not an interrupt. This means that except for another creature's movement, which is specifically called out as an exception, your readied action occurs after the triggering action entirely finishes. This... Is kinda weird either way, but it technically means that if you get moved out of range of your readied action by the forced movement, it probably wouldn't actually trigger.

And you can't use immediate actions on your turn at all, from my reading of the rules, so no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger during your own turn. That's unfortunate, because it was the first thing I thought of when you mentioned readied actions as a way to pull this off :smallannoyed:

Meta
2010-07-07, 09:41 AM
The only problem I see with that is that completing readied actions is an immediate reaction, not an interrupt. This means that except for another creature's movement, which is specifically called out as an exception, your readied action occurs after the triggering action entirely finishes. This... Is kinda weird either way, but it technically means that if you get moved out of range of your readied action by the forced movement, it probably wouldn't actually trigger.

And you can't use immediate actions on your turn at all, from my reading of the rules, so no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger during your own turn. That's unfortunate, because it was the first thing I thought of when you mentioned readied actions as a way to pull this off :smallannoyed:

Hmm, how about with a hero that has good defenses against OAs. Ready an action as "Attack when this monster attacks me" and then be slid past them generating an OA? By RAW then, you'd attack as soon as they attacked you right? This relies on how the DM plays though.

FullofQuestions
2010-07-07, 10:18 AM
The only problem I see with that is that completing readied actions is an immediate reaction, not an interrupt. This means that except for another creature's movement, which is specifically called out as an exception, your readied action occurs after the triggering action entirely finishes. This... Is kinda weird either way, but it technically means that if you get moved out of range of your readied action by the forced movement, it probably wouldn't actually trigger.

And you can't use immediate actions on your turn at all, from my reading of the rules, so no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger during your own turn. That's unfortunate, because it was the first thing I thought of when you mentioned readied actions as a way to pull this off :smallannoyed:

'no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger'. What if it wasn't on your turn? If someone slid you through square X during their turn and you had a readied action for doing something upon entering square X, would it happen seeing how it is not your turn, and sliding is not consider a move action anyway?

Meta
2010-07-07, 11:03 AM
'no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger'. What if it wasn't on your turn? If someone slid you through square X during their turn and you had a readied action for doing something upon entering square X, would it happen seeing how it is not your turn, and sliding is not consider a move action anyway?

Well since a readied action is an immediate reaction, rather than an interrupt it happens after the action that triggered it comes to an end. So the forced movement would finish and then your readied action would come into play

NecroRebel
2010-07-07, 12:24 PM
Hmm, how about with a hero that has good defenses against OAs. Ready an action as "Attack when this monster attacks me" and then be slid past them generating an OA? By RAW then, you'd attack as soon as they attacked you right? This relies on how the DM plays though.

Well, forced movement doesn't provoke OAs, so it'd have to be a Leader power that let another party member move. Since movement is specifically called out as something that can, in fact, be interrupted by an immediate reaction, I'd say that you could actually do it this way. Your readied action would trigger after the enemy's opportunity attack resolved unless you worded the readied action "As soon as I move into this square...," which you wouldn't, as mentioned, be able to trigger on your own turn but would work if you moved willingly (not push/pull/slid) into that square.

At least, that's how I interpret it. Exactly how readied actions work with your own movement isn't clear, IMO.


'no readying an action, moving, and having the readied action trigger'. What if it wasn't on your turn? If someone slid you through square X during their turn and you had a readied action for doing something upon entering square X, would it happen seeing how it is not your turn, and sliding is not consider a move action anyway?

The problem is that sliding is not considered a move action, but nor is it considered movement. If you could move during someone else's turn, I think, such as if the party Warlord used Knight's Move on you, you would have your immediate action available, so it might work. This seems a bit wonky, so it also might not work.

Hm... Here's the relevant passage that I'm considering here, from PHB1 268.


If a creature triggers your immediate reaction while moving (by coming into range, for example), you take your action before the creature finishes moving but after it has moved at least 1 square.

I think, rereading it, that since the creature triggering your immediate reaction isn't moving, it doesn't work. Except that you're a creature, too, and are moving, so if you're able to be considered the triggering creature, it does work. I guess it's how you interpret it. I'm not sure how in this case.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-07, 12:34 PM
The problem is that sliding is not considered a move action, but nor is it considered movement.

Sliding is, by definition, a form of movement.

NecroRebel
2010-07-07, 12:45 PM
Sliding is, by definition, a form of movement.

Is it? Well, yes, of course, but does the wording I quoted for immediate reactions work only for moves, or all movement including shifts and forced movement?

Actually, you're probably right. It probably does include forced movement and not just the-sort-of-movement-you-do-if-you-walk moves.

The problem of whether or not your own movement change in position can trigger your readied actions is still open to interpretation, as I see it.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-07, 12:53 PM
Is it? Well, yes, of course, but does the wording I quoted for immediate reactions work only for moves, or all movement including shifts and forced movement?
Since it specifies "a creature", and you are a creature too, I'd say it does work. Except, of course, during your own turn.

I would not say that RAW is unambiguously clear on this, but this strikes me as the most reasonable interpretation. Readied actions are uncommon enough, and low-powered enough, that they don't need further restriction.

NecroRebel
2010-07-07, 12:58 PM
Since it specifies "a creature", and you are a creature too, I'd say it does work. Except, of course, during your own turn.

I would not say that RAW is unambiguously clear on this, but this strikes me as the most reasonable interpretation. Readied actions are uncommon enough, and low-powered enough, that they don't need further restriction.

Yeah, and given that using this trick to attack while moving delays your turn in the initiative order, which can be a big deal, and takes direct party cooperation, it's probably balanced with using same-level powers that simply let you attack midmove through whatever method.