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Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 12:07 AM
I was looking at the Hummingbird familiar (dragon 323) which uses stas given for the thrush in the DMG...

and aside from my assertion that hummingbirds should have a Good manuverability rating, not average...

a 40 ft fly speed seemed rather low...

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So I went about on the net a bit and it turns out that that birds roughly have an average crusing speed roughly between 20-40 mph which is 29.33-58.67 feet/sec.

Another source stated 8-23 m/s which is 26.24-75.46 feet/sec

These airspeeds have little or no relation to size.

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A round lasts six seconds, and a move action is roughly half that.

That means the statistical flight speed given for birds as a whole in general should vary between 90 and 180 ft (or between 80 and 225 ft)

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The speed for Hummingbirds lands pretty much in the middle at around 100 to130 ft. when cruising. (equals 25-30 mph... with predator escape speeds exceeding 50 mph)

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Although, even before this rough estimate, it has been my assertion that many of the airspeeds given for bird creatures in general should should be much greater. I thought I might as well share what I found out while looking into this.

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-07, 12:12 AM
Hummingbirds should have perfect maneuverability, really. Have you ever seen one in real life? I swear, they all look like they are computer animated, even though they are before your eyes in reality, right there.

Math_Mage
2010-07-07, 12:13 AM
So...it doesn't matter whether it's an African or European swallow? :smalleek:

Flying does tend to be faster than running. But flight is good enough already.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 12:23 AM
Well, perfect manuverability means you can ascend a strait vertical at full speed and fly backwards at full speed.

While hummingbirds can fly backwards, I'm pretty sure its not as fast as forward flight.

Thankfully, good manuverability includes the ability to hover.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-07, 09:27 AM
A round lasts six seconds, and a move action is roughly half that.

That means the statistical flight speed given for birds in general should vary between 90 and 180 ft (or between 80 and 225 ft)

Nooooooo, a round lasts six seconds, and a move action is an unstated fraction thereof. The only capacity we can measure by is the full-run action, since it consumes the whole round (and therefore the whole six seconds). Given a 40' fly speed, a run action will move you 160', or just under 18mph.

Give a bird the Run feat and this speed increases to 200' in six seconds, or 22.5mph. For a hummingbird, who generally top out around 35mph, this is low. Give them a fly 60' (Good) and the Run feat, and they'll hit 35 MPH whenever they take a run action.

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 09:39 AM
There's also Hustling (taking two move actions per round, can only be done for an hour without risk of fatigue- do it for 2 hours and fatigue sets in)

If we're looking at long distance travel though, it'll have to be one move action per round.

How fast do hummingbirds fly when on migration? How about bigger birds?

Maybe peregrine falcons should get the Power Dive feat from Draconomicon?

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 06:11 PM
In a more recent study, Calder and Jones (1989) using arrival and departure masses and rates of gain from Rufous Hummingbird banding data, determined that a 747 mile (1,202 km) flight of a Rufous appears to have been possible. At an airspeed of 43 km/h, the Rufous was able to travel 747 miles in 28 hours or two 373-mi (601 km) legs in 14-hour days apiece, depending on unknowns of tailwinds & successful refueling points.

43 km/h = 26.72 mph = 39.19 ft/sec

erikun
2010-07-07, 06:22 PM
I feel compelled to point out that most birds glide or soar in the air - that is, they spread out their wings and allow the updraft to keep them aloft while flying. Hummingbirds cannot do this, and fly more like insects. A hummingbird is unlikely to reach the same top speeds as most birds, especially if those speeds are during diving.

Not my expert opinion, but something I'm noticing.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 06:41 PM
Ruby-throated Hummingbird
(http://www.hummingbirds.net/rubythroated.html)

Physical Description
Average length: 3.5 inches (8.9 cm)
Average weight: 1/8 ounce (3.1 g)
Body temperature: 105°-108°F (40.5°-42.2°C)
Wing beats: 40-80 per second, average about 52
Respiration: 250 per minute
Heart rate: 250 beats/min resting; 1200 beats/min feeding
Flight speed: 30 mph (48 kph) normal; 50 mph (80 kph) escape; 63 mph (101 kph) dive

ericgrau
2010-07-07, 08:17 PM
You may double move while flying but not run. So a creature's move speed is 1/2 of its top speed. Thus a bird's movements speed should be between 45 and 90 feet. A D&D hawk has a fly speed of 60, a couple others are 40.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-07, 08:30 PM
You may double move while flying but not run.

That's only for the fly spell. The actual flying condition carries no such terms.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 08:36 PM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm
look under "Movement Modes"


Fly

A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load. (Note that medium armor does not necessarily constitute a medium load.) All fly speeds include a parenthetical note indicating maneuverability, as follows:

* Perfect: The creature can perform almost any aerial maneuver it wishes. It moves through the air as well as a human moves over smooth ground.
* Good: The creature is very agile in the air (like a housefly or a hummingbird), but cannot change direction as readily as those with perfect maneuverability.
* Average: The creature can fly as adroitly as a small bird.
* Poor: The creature flies as well as a very large bird.
* Clumsy: The creature can barely maneuver at all.

A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

I guess by RAW, hummingbirds have good manuverability.

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from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040706a


Run

A creature using natural flying speed can use the run action. As with any other run action, the creature must move in a straight line. A flyer using the run action cannot gain more than 5 feet of altitude, but it can lose any amount of altitude, and it gains the normal bonus movement for the altitude lost (5 feet per 5 feet descended, a maximum of twice its normal flying speed.) For example, a harpy could use the run action to fly 320 feet in a straight line. While doing so, it could not gain more than 5 feet of altitude.

ericgrau
2010-07-07, 09:43 PM
That's only for the fly spell. The actual flying condition carries no such terms.

If so then your speed would be 1/4th of a real bird's top speed, or 20-45 feet, because it's assumed the real bird's top speed is measured while running.

EDIT: Thanks to Andion Isurand for finding that flying creatures can run. So if anything the SRD birds seem unusually fast. Though I checked the eagle and at 80 feet it seems right on.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-07, 09:50 PM
If so then your speed would be 1/4th of a real bird's top speed, or 20-45 feet, because it's assumed the real bird's top speed is measured while running.

...did you not read this?


Given a 40' fly speed, a run action will move you 160', or just under 18mph.

Give a bird the Run feat and this speed increases to 200' in six seconds, or 22.5mph. For a hummingbird, who generally top out around 35mph, this is low. Give them a fly 60' (Good) and the Run feat, and they'll hit 35 MPH whenever they take a run action.

ericgrau
2010-07-07, 09:55 PM
Then hummingbirds have a speed of 80 feet. Eagles are also about the same speed by the SRD, which is accurate. Other birds tend to be slower. Owls are 40 feet, or 18 mph, while real ones range from 12-50mph. Plausible at least as the SRD owl is size tiny. All the birds can all dive at twice the mentioned speed but so can birds by RAW. Ravens seem a bit slow for some reason, as crows at least are supposed to fly at 30 mph and they're only listed as 40 ft.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 10:06 PM
A running monk with a 90 ft. speed (without and with the Run feat)

( 90 * 4 * 10 * 60 ) / 5,280 = 40.90 mph
( 90 * 5 * 10 * 60 ) / 5,280 = 51.14 mph

speed * run * rounds * minutes / mile in feet

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If a hummingbird's average crusing speed is 25-30 mph...

25 mph = 36.67 ft/s
36.67 ft/s * 6 seconds = 220.02 ft per round
220.02 per round / double move = 110.01 ft speed

30 mph = 44.00 ft/s
44.00 ft/s * 6 seconds = 264.00 ft per round
264.00 per round / double move = 132.00 ft speed

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If you use the numbers given above for the Ruby-Throated Hummingbird...

( 110 * 4 * 10 * 60 ) / 5280 = 50.00 mph
( 110 * 5 * 10 * 60 ) / 5280 = 62.50 mph

speed * run * rounds * minutes / mile in feet

Rising Phoenix
2010-07-07, 10:11 PM
I feel compelled to point out that most birds glide or soar in the air - that is, they spread out their wings and allow the updraft to keep them aloft while flying. Hummingbirds cannot do this, and fly more like insects. A hummingbird is unlikely to reach the same top speeds as most birds, especially if those speeds are during diving.

Not my expert opinion, but something I'm noticing.

Actually that largely depends on the genus/family belongs to. Eg.:

Eagles and Buteo Buzzards (Hawks in North America): Soaring/ Gliding
Swans, Geese and Ducks: Power flight
Procelariforms (Albatrosses, petrels etc): dynamic soaring
Doves: power flight ('clipped' wing strokes etc)
Ciconiforms (Storks, Ibis, Herons et al) and Cranes: Mixture of soaring and power flight.
Passerine Birds: most use 'bounding' flight (burst of wingbeats followed by wingbeats closed next to the body). But this being the largest bird family almost all the modes of flight are to be found in this group.

As to size in relation to flight speed. It doesn't matter. A White Throated Needletail (roughly the size of a blackbird) can easily reach speeds of 80 k even 100 k. Whereas an owl as already mentioned is much slower.

Also most birds on migration fly much much faster as has satellite tagging has revealed... and they have huge amounts of stamina....

Bar-tailed Godwit flies from Alaska to New Zealand in a 10 day non stop flight:

http://alaska.usgs.gov/science/biology/shorebirds/barg.html

Cheers,

R.P.

ForzaFiori
2010-07-07, 10:25 PM
Can't you only run for a short amount of time though? The statistics given are AVERAGE movement, which to me, seems as though it would be simply a double move, not a run action. So at a fly speed of about 40'/second, and 6 seconds, means 240' per round, or 120' move actions. since it can keep the speed up for quite some time (in fact, one could even say that it should be able to go at 240' move speed, since hummingbirds can fly pretty much all day, and since that is their average speed, I would assume they could keep up that speed for a good while, even longer than you can hustle in DnD, and MUCH longer than running) However, if all birds were given such speeds, while humans have a roughly correct speed of 30, flying would be outrageously broken.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-07, 10:30 PM
However, this is only for birds, whose bodies are designed for these speeds... you already have dragons traveling at higher speeds. All the other creatures who gain flight simply dont have the body shape or mechanics for it.

Flying in and of itself is not broken if these speeds are limited to those with natural bird bodies and forms. You could give birds an additional extraordinary ability that would allow them to overcome hustle limitations.

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http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/publications/nonpwdpubs/young_naturalist/animals/animal_speeds/index.phtml

There is a nice chart on this page comparing many animal speeds, on land and in the air.

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running speed of human commoner at 1st level
30 x 4 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 13.63 mph
30 x 5 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 17.05 mph (with Run feat)
35 x 5 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 19.89 mph (and Dash feat)

running speed of human barbarian at 1st level
40 x 4 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 18.18 mph
40 x 5 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 22.73 mph (with Run feat)
45 x 5 x 10 x 60 / 5280 = 25.57 mph (and Dash feat)

During Usain Bolt's World record 100m sprint (9.58) at the 2009 Athletic Championships in Berlin, Usain covered Bolt reaches his top speed of 12.27 m/s or 27.45 miles per hour at the 65 meter mark.
see here (http://wiki.answers.com/Q/In_MPH_what_is_the_fastest_a_human_has_ever_run)

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http://www.unitarium.com/speed-calculator

Speed Calculation - suppose we want to calculate Usain Bolt average speed during his world record winning 100 m sprint race in Berlin August 16, 2009 (this is default calculation displayed when you enter the page). What do we know?

We want to calculate Bolt's average speed
The distance was, of course, 100 meters
Bolt ran the distance in 9.58 seconds.

So, we have to (1) check the radio button 'Compute Speed', (2) input 100 as a value of distance and set units of the distance to meters. (3) input 9.58 seconds into Time input box (be careful of time notation, to set seconds you have to type ::9.58 or 0:0:9.58, 9.58 with no colons ':' means 9.58 hours, with one preceding colon means 9.58 minutes).
Calculator answers in input box labeled 'speed'. Note, that you can choose desired unit of speed and, for example, if you set units to yards per second, you get the answer: Bolt ran 11.42 yards per second during the race. Setting meters per second, you get 10.44 mps; miles per hour - 23.35 mph; kilometers per hour - 37.58 kmh; etc.

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A first level human barbarian with the right two feats can win olympic gold.

Saintheart
2010-07-08, 12:22 AM
Be a king. They're supposed to know these kinds of things. :smallbiggrin:

faceroll
2010-07-30, 09:09 PM
I feel compelled to point out that most birds glide or soar in the air - that is, they spread out their wings and allow the updraft to keep them aloft while flying. Hummingbirds cannot do this, and fly more like insects. A hummingbird is unlikely to reach the same top speeds as most birds, especially if those speeds are during diving.

Not my expert opinion, but something I'm noticing.

That's so wrong. I see hummingbirds glide all the time. I've never not seen a bird species capable of flight not set its wings out and glide on them. It's part of what makes flight so efficient and allows for a bird smaller than your fist to fly 300 miles in 2 days.


You could give birds an additional extraordinary ability that would allow them to overcome hustle limitations.

If there's one thing D&D 3.5 was lacking, it was accurate bird migration modeling. :smallbiggrin:

Sindri
2010-08-01, 02:00 AM
It's clearly impossible to Run all day; I could see birds getting an extraordinary ability to double move infinitely (though most birds glide for the majority of their time in the air, which seems a lot more casual than a hustle), but that still means that a bird going 30 MPH for an extended period would need a movement rate of (30mph /2[double move] * 5280[feet per mile] /60[minutes per hour] /10[rounds per minute]) = 132 feet per round, per move action. Dragons can do this, but birds cannot by RAW. I generally houserule speeds to more reasonable numbers, because at the speeds listed in the monster manual, it's nearly impossible to stay in the air with real world physics.

The problem here is that the writers didn't bother to figure out realistic numbers for most animals; they decided whether something was about the same as a human, slower, faster, or a lot faster, and the most they ever gave was just enough that you can't walk alongside it. For example, race horses have been recorded at 55 mph. A light horse with the Run Feat and the Dash feat maxes out at just shy of 37 mph, meaning that the best horse ever in game can pull off 2/3 of real life speeds. Once you get into swimming, burrowing, and especially flight it gets far worse very quickly.
In short, the game writers cared more about playability that realism, and left it up to us to change things if we cared enough to. Which is what game designers should do.

Psyx
2010-08-01, 05:20 AM
"In short, the game writers cared more about playability that realism, and left it up to us to change things if we cared enough to. Which is what game designers should do."

This. 40' Good is what I'd go for as a GM. Maybe 50' if you bought the pizza that week.

Andion Isurand
2010-08-01, 02:48 PM
(80 * 5 * 10 * 60) / 5 280 = 45.4545455

even the Valenar Riding Horse comes up shy.

looks like we need a list of real world animal movement speeds per type of animal