3.5 Gestalt Sorc/X Build

[AaaronRZ]

We start at level 6 and I've never played a pure caster before so I decided "Why start now". I am not opposed to it, but I just have never really felt like the type so I decided I would try to make a character with Sorcerer spells and run with it the best I can.

We start with a 36 point buy and I was thinking 8str, 14dex, 16con, 10int, 10wis, 18cha. Good idea/bad idea/why?

My class selection thus far is as follows:

Sorc 1/Pal 1
Sorc 2/Pal 2
Sorc 3/Monk 1
Sorc 4/Fighter 1
Sorc 5/Fighter 2
Mystic Wanderer 1/Paladin 3 (I would have to convince the DM to let me qualify without 2nd level of divine spells)


Current Feat Ideas:
Level 1 - Maximize Spell
Human Bonus - Extend Spell
Level 3 - Quicken Spell
Level 4 - Improved Initiative - Fighter Bonus
Level 5 - Iron Will - Fighter Bonus
Level 6 - Ascetic Mage

Assumming 13k starting money... charisma cloak +2, bracer of armor +2 , gloves of dexterity +2 is 12k of my money. That leaves me 1k for various odds and ends.

Without spells my stats are as follows 21 charisma (+5) 16 dexterity (+3). All other stats as originally started.

Armor 26 = Base 10 + Dex 3 + Bracer 2 + Monk AC bonus 1 + Wis Modifier (Ascetic Mage now CHA) 5 + Mystic Wanderer + 5 also for CHA.

Initiative 7 = 3 dex + improved initiative 4

My melee is fairly obsolete although my BAB is high I could prolly stab things if nothing else was available, my CHA score should give me plenty of bonus spells and an arsonal capable of controlling a battle.

Saves seem a mess to me, but as per rules to simplify it:
Paladin (3) 3/1/1, Monk (1) 2/2/2, Sorc (2) 0/0/3 makes
5 Fort 3 Reflex 6 Will, Paladin Bonus 5 to all and Base 3 Fort 3 Ref 0 Will, Iron Will.
13 Fort, 11 Reflex, 13 Will

I'm not sure If I'm missing anything else important, but I would love to hear feedback on how to improve this build, maybe the melee classes are just whack for this build and I would love to hear that also. I'm undetermined on a melee weapon if any as well.

[gallagher]

seems rather MAD. you need a decent CON, DEX, and WIS, and a beefed up CHA. you cant afford a bad STR, and you wont have INT worth crap. in the event that you run out of spells, instead of a crossbow you can use a longbow

[gallagher]

honestly, i would think that you would go with a Sorc(x)//Pal 2/divine Bard (x-2). the whip will help deliver touch spells at range, you will have good CHA synergy, and you will have good social skills and SP. also, glibness.

[Milskidasith]

I've never heard of Mystic Wanderer.

Anyway, this seems rather odd. The level in Monk is worthless, you aren't taking gishy PrCs, you're asking to enter a PrC before you're ready, you're taking random levels in fighter... besides the 2 levels of paladin, there's just no synergy here at all, and you're even sacrificing good hit die and BAB with your monk level.

EDIT: Mystic Wanderer doesn't even progress sorcerer casting. Why would you take sorcerer levels?

[IonDragon]

You don't need Iron Will.

The reason for taking Monk in a build like that is to boost saves and AC, not to increase your combat ability (which honestly, Rogue would do better).

Don't take Fighter unless you REALLY NEED the feats for something. Take something more fun like Druid maybe. Try to focus in on two - three stats. You've got Cha from being a Sorcerer and Paladin, Wis from having Monk. Medium levels of Druid with Natural Spell will allow you to cast your Sorcerer spells while in Wild Shape, give you Divine Spellcasting and overall tons of utility.

[AaaronRZ]

I did Monk and Mystic Wanderer basically to add my CHA twice to my armor for survivablity.

Fighter was sort of random, although I obviously went after the bonus feats I could get from there. One to get Iron Will to qualify for Mystic Wanderer and Improved Initiative may be just for my comfort zone as I'm accustomed to playing just melee classes. Is there an alternative you might suggest to any of the paths I have tried to take?

I guess If I were to go straight caster style it would come down to Sorc X/Bard X and add PRCs down the line.

As per stats what would you reccomend I change if anything? remove 2 CHA so I can add more points accross the board?

[IonDragon]

You need to zero in on exactly what you want to do. If one of those is adding Wis to AC as an Armor Bonus, then you're not going to need it since you've got Mage Armor and plenty of spells/day to cast it with. Throw in a Rod of Extend Spell, Lesser and you've got an all day armor buff of 4 - 6 (Depending on if you spring for the more powerful one from CMage, I think. Definitely in the SpC)

If you're going for a Gish, do you want to be a melee combatant who uses his self only spells to buff? Or do you want to be a spellcaster who can hold his own if it breaks down into a melee fight?

Bear in mind your action economy. You don't get a second turn to use all of those cool abilities you picked up. You're best off
a) trying to be better at what your main class already does
b) taking other classes to balance out your main class' weaknesses
c) having your other class be there for versatility (i.e. Wizard, Druid, Cleric)

EDIT: Monk adds WIS not CHA to armor. Paladin adds CHA to saves.

[Milskidasith]

I did Monk and Mystic Wanderer basically to add my CHA twice to my armor for survivablity.

That's not good. AC sucks compared to many tricks sorcerers get, and losing caster levels is not that great.


Fighter was sort of random, although I obviously went after the bonus feats I could get from there. One to get Iron Will to qualify for Mystic Wanderer and Improved Initiative may be just for my comfort zone as I'm accustomed to playing just melee classes. Is there an alternative you might suggest to any of the paths I have tried to take?

Most anything is better than taking fighter levels to qualify for a PrC that's going to weaken you by losing sorcerer levels.


I guess If I were to go straight caster style it would come down to Sorc X/Bard X and add PRCs down the line.

As per stats what would you reccomend I change if anything? remove 2 CHA so I can add more points accross the board?

No, you want to do sorcerer/stuff that gives you good BAB, hit die, and non will saves (paladin is a good choice for a two level dip). You want to have a good chassis and get passive abilities, not gestalt so you get good spellcasting, mediocre BAB, bad hit die, with both sides being purely active.

If you want to take the PrC to get charisma to AC twice, then take it on your non sorcerer side at least, though it's really, really not worth a feat because the abilities are so minor.

[The Shadowmind]

If you are outside of core I recommend the Hexblade class from Complete Warrior, it is a bad active side of gestalt but decent as a passive side. CHA to saves versus other spells/SLA's, D10 HD, good BAB, half caster:smallfrown:, a familiar that you could swap out for a dark companion, but I really suggest getting the hexblade fix it you want to use it.

[Milskidasith]

Hexblade offers BAB, HP, and a bonus to saves against spells, but it doesn't really offer good saves otherwise, and you can get good saves with Paladin as well (though multiclassing between them is a good double dip for Cha to saves against spells). It would be better to drop it at two, or maybe three for mettle since you'll be making saves.

A Hexblade 3/Paladin 2/Abj Champ X/Sorcerer 5/Something X would be a very good gish, however.

[AaaronRZ]

Thanks for the advice guys to start I am going to remove my 3rd level of Paladin and move Mystic Wanderer there for now and continue on with Sorcerer 6 on the right side.

Is human paragon 2 a viable replacement for fighter 2 to get 2 more charisma or is that also a dead end path to take? Also are the spell feats I took the options most others would take?

[Milskidasith]

Thanks for the advice guys to start I am going to remove my 3rd level of Paladin and move Mystic Wanderer there for now and continue on with Sorcerer 6 on the right side.

Is human paragon 2 a viable replacement for fighter 2 to get 2 more charisma or is that also a dead end path to take? Also are the spell feats I took the options most others would take?

Mystic Wanderer isn't good at all.

The most help I can give you at this point without building the character is that A: you need to figure out the role you're going for (If it's a caster, why all the random martial dips? If it's a gish, why monk and fighter for irrelevant feats for a divine caster PrC?), and B: you should probably read a guide, because, no offense, it is a lot easier for you to read a guide and understand what you need for a gestalt character than it is for us to say "Take this" and hope you understand why it's good.

[AaaronRZ]

I am looking up everything via google or through my downloaded source books to better understand any advice.

I am just having a little trouble breaking out of my melee class mold and needing to survive. Mystic Wanderer is out for now if I find the need to need to survive at higher levels I may revisit this path. How about Arcane Devotee in place of Mystic Wanderer at 6?

Arcane Devotee requirements:
Patron: Must have a patron deity
Alignment: Must be within 1 step of that of your patron
Must be able to cast arcane spells
Spell Recovery: Must recover your spells at the same time clerics of you patron pray for theirs
Knowledge (Religion): 5 ranks
Spellcraft: 8 ranks
Share Spell feat

I could qualify for this at my 6th level and progression as follows:
Class Features

Edited copyrighted text, it was the class abilities for Arcane Devotee.

If I understand this correctly by the time I made it to level 5 Sorc/5 Arc Devotee I would be casting level 7 spells?

[Wings of Peace]

I realize stat bonuses to different things seems like a good idea, but as an Arcanist honestly you can beef up your AC easily with levels in Abjurant Champion and Spelldancer for persistent buffs. That will more than make up for not having 3x sources of bonus from your Charisma and it will free your second side more.

[Andion Isurand]

Oops... wrong thread

[IonDragon]

Dragon Skin
Greater Mirror Image
(Greater) Mage Armor
Shield
Scintillating Scales

Get a Glyphseal, Greater(MiC) and stick Shield and Dragon Skin in there with Arcane Fusion(CMage, IIRC). Put that glyph on one of your spell component pouches, of which you should have 2+. Now you can reach into that pouch as a free action when casting a spell on the first round of combat while casting and automatically buff you AC by about 10.

I should also point out Mirror Image grants you miss chance which is much more powerful than AC.

[Milskidasith]

I am looking up everything via google or through my downloaded source books to better understand any advice.

I am just having a little trouble breaking out of my melee class mold and needing to survive. Mystic Wanderer is out for now if I find the need to need to survive at higher levels I may revisit this path. How about Arcane Devotee in place of Mystic Wanderer at 6?

How does Arcane Devotee help you survive? If you want a spellcaster/melee character, please read a guide for gishes, because it seems as if you're randomly throwing classes out there at this point (monk, fighter, arcane devotee, human paragon, etc) with no real rhyme or reason.


SNIP

You can't post copyrighted material on to the boards.


If I understand this correctly by the time I made it to level 5 Sorc/5 Arc Devotee I would be casting level 7 spells?

You can't qualify as a sorcerer five (you need eight ranks of knowledge religion and fourth level spells in both Arcane Devotee classes), and I have no clue how you think you could cast seventh level spells at level ten.

[AaaronRZ]

Arcane Devotee wasn't persay going to help me survive, I just noted I had trouble getting away from surival move with my class choices. However, I was going to remove Mystic Wanderer, which I considered a survival class for a new class.

Arcane Devotee requirements:
Patron: Must have a patron deity
Alignment: Must be within 1 step of that of your patron
Must be able to cast arcane spells
Spell Recovery: Must recover your spells at the same time clerics of you patron pray for theirs
Knowledge (Religion): 5 ranks
Spellcraft: 8 ranks
Share Spell feat

I haven't located anywhere on the net or source material where I need to be able to cast anything other then arcane spells.

I can qualify for knowledge religion 5 at level 2 paladin.

Arcane Devotee seems like it fits in pretty good at this point unless my logic is off.

I only briefly considered Human Paragon, but just as a replacement for fighter so I could take advantage of the +2 stat, which I would have used on charisma. Idea was bad and off the radar.

Hexblade 3/Paladin 2/Abj Champ 1//Sorcerer 5/Arcane Devotee 1

Looks like the direction I am going to head for now and continue to advance Abj Champ and Arcane Devotee. It gives me pretty good combat capabilities as well as a lot of diversity with spontaneous divine spells and turn/rebuke undead. Any future advice for PRC's also would be greatly appreciated.

Also to start out 18 charisma or 16 charisma and distribute my point buy out more? Current stats for 36 point buy are again: 8str, 14dex, 16con, 10int, 10wis, 18cha

[Milskidasith]

Arcane Devotee wasn't persay going to help me survive, I just noted I had trouble getting away from surival move with my class choices. However, I was going to remove Mystic Wanderer, which I considered a survival class for a new class.

Arcane Devotee requirements:
Patron: Must have a patron deity
Alignment: Must be within 1 step of that of your patron
Must be able to cast arcane spells
Spell Recovery: Must recover your spells at the same time clerics of you patron pray for theirs
Knowledge (Religion): 5 ranks
Spellcraft: 8 ranks
Share Spell feat

I haven't located anywhere on the net or source material where I need to be able to cast anything other then arcane spells.

Those aren't the requirements for Arcane Devotee. In both the PGtF and the FRCS (the only two sources I have for Arcane Devotee) you need fourth level arcane casting. What book is the version you are using from?



Hexblade 3/Paladin 2/Abj Champ 1//Sorcerer 5/Arcane Devotee 1

Looks like the direction I am going to head for now and continue to advance Abj Champ and Arcane Devotee. It gives me pretty good combat capabilities as well as a lot of diversity with spontaneous divine spells and turn/rebuke undead. Any future advice for PRC's also would be greatly appreciated.

Arcane Devotee offers little, in the versions I have. I don't know of any other version, unless you are using an old book.

[Iferus]

Also remember you can't have two PrC's at once. one of your two class levels has to be a base class at every level.

[Wings of Peace]

If you're not completely sold on Sorcerer could I actually recommend:

Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Spelldancer 1/Legacy Champion (Abjurant Champ) 10//Duskblade 20

This will net you full BaB and some nifty ability on the Duskblade side, and allow you to qualify for all of your prestige classes easily on the Wizard side, which, with that build will be more than capable of becoming a melee or casting monster since eitherway all of your buffs will be persistent.

It's not completely casting centric but you mentioned melee which this will allow you to do.

[AaaronRZ]

Thanks!

Wings of Peace this is the type of build in concept that seems to really appeal to me, I am going to have to look up most of the PrCs so I can better understand what I may be playing. I am assuming this build would be more oriented with INT rather then CHA?

[Wings of Peace]

Thanks!

Wings of Peace this is the type of build in concept that seems to really appeal to me, I am going to have to look up most of the PrCs so I can better understand what I may be playing. I am assuming this build would be more oriented with INT rather then CHA?

Yes, it requires you to prepare your spells but once you get a fell for the build it won't be any real handicap, espcially with the extra skill points.

Abjurant Champion gives you bonus AC equal to your levels in it when you cast an Abjuration that boosts ac. For example Shield cast with five levels of Abj. Champ gives +9 AC.

Here is a link to a post I made in another thread that outlines different sources of AC bonus for you: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8783503&postcount=37

Spelldancer lets you take Con damage to mitigate the metamagic costs of spells. The idea with this is that you can thus protect yourself from Con damage with magic and then use the Persistent metamagic on virtually all of your buffs to make them all last 24 hours.

Legacy Champion your DM may or may not allow as one of the pre-reqs is a legacy item, but if you can get it then it's levels can be applied to your Abj. Champ levels for boosting your spellcasting further and also the bonus to ac that you get.

Aside from scouring for damage boosting spells, look in your copy of Spell Compendium at the spell Wrath Strike. You will persist Wraithstrike such that not only are you attacking at full BaB but every attack is a touch attack.

Edit: Note that the AC bonuses on that URL I linked you to will be different for you because your effective Abj. Champ levels will be higher.

[gorfnab]

If you're worried about your AC with a sorcerer you could go with a Stalwart (Complete Mage) Battle Sorcerer (Unearthed Arcana). It's usually not recomended unless you really need the AC and HP. Otherwise 1 level of Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) and the feat Master Spellthief (Complete Scoundrel) will let you be able to cast spells while wearing light armor. Another option would be to buy a +X Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt and a +X Twilight Mithril Buckler.