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katans
2010-07-07, 02:48 AM
There I was again on a french board discussing full attacks and why melee types are mostly screwed, and someone made the following suggestion: how about granting everybody an extra move action each round? Casters don't get much from an extra move action, apart from moving around or changing the target of a sustained spell, but it would allow melee types to move and full attack in one round. Of course, stuff like charging, pouncing, spring attack etc. would have to be fixed as well, but there goes the basic idea.

Could a caster break this extra advantage easily, making the whole point moot? Or would it be an easy fix to grant melee types a bit more of punch while not granting that big of an extra edge to casters?

Thanks for your replies.

BR
Katans

Wings of Peace
2010-07-07, 02:52 AM
It might help in the capacity that you can now safely make both a retreat and a charge for PA damage boosting? But overall the caster if he sets his mind to it will still rape.

Mr.Moron
2010-07-07, 02:59 AM
Well, It'd certainly go a long way to solving the mobility problems traditional melee tend to face. Ultimately though, it's like putting roller skates on a bear and asking how/if that will change how it measures up to, I dunno, a volcano that erupts Lava T-Rexes with laser-chainsaws for teeth.

Optimystik
2010-07-07, 02:59 AM
Casters could indeed make good use of this (move and summon.)

Psychic Warriors already get this :smalltongue:

HunterOfJello
2010-07-07, 03:27 AM
Travel Devotion Feat: Once again proving that only casters can have nice things

IonDragon
2010-07-07, 04:13 AM
You could then Concentrate on two spells, take a five foot step and cast. Spells such as Manyjaws or Flaming Sphere or Call Lightning.

Boci
2010-07-07, 05:02 AM
Could just make full attacking a standard action. Factotum is the only class that might be OP with that mechanic.

katans
2010-07-07, 05:04 AM
But overall the caster if he sets his mind to it will still rape.

Oh, I'm well aware of that, but at least now the melee types will be able to full attack more often, making them a bit more decent at what they're supposed to do.


You could then Concentrate on two spells, take a five foot step and cast. Spells such as Manyjaws or Flaming Sphere or Call Lightning.

In my Player's Handbook, concentrating on a spell is still a standard action. YMMV.

Runestar
2010-07-07, 05:38 AM
There is a feat which lets you maintain concentration as a move or swift action if you succeed on a concentration check.

Boci
2010-07-07, 05:40 AM
In my Player's Handbook, concentrating on a spell is still a standard action. YMMV.

Swap two move actions for a standard?


There is a feat which lets you maintain concentration as a move or swift action if you succeed on a concentration check.

Isn't that a skill trick?

nedz
2010-07-07, 08:04 AM
Theres the Marshal ability which does something similiar to this called Grant Move Action. Its use is very limited though, 1/day per 4 Marshall levels, and its out of sequence.
Has anyone used this ?
What was the effect ?

Person_Man
2010-07-07, 09:18 AM
You can Demoralize an enemy with a Move Action with the right equipment. With a modest investment (Intimidate Skill, Never Outnumbered Skill Trick, and the Imperious Command feat) it can be quite a potent combo (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=911167). Plenty of casters have Intimidate as a class Skill.

With the Winged Warrior (RotW) feat you can creates a 20 ft cloud centered on you as a Move Action. Against those within the cloud, you have partial concealment and casters need to make a Concentration check to cast, and against those outside the cloud you have total concealment (and thus no line of site).

You can use the Goad feat as a Move Action. Useful if you want to protect a friend or set off an AoO combo.

You can use the Combat Panache feat as a Move Action to impose your Cha bonus as a To-Hit penalty against one enemy for attacks against you until the end of the encounter.

With the Extraordinary Concentration feat you can maintain Concentration as a Move Action, which keeps some very potent spells going.

Suffice to say, it's not hard to find ways to abuse this as a caster.

balistafreak
2010-07-07, 11:35 AM
The question is, do casters "abuse" it more?

The move action will obviously benefit both sides, but the question is whether it helps melee types more and therefore helps close the gap Marianna Trench of power difference. Kind of like a good splatbook.

jiriku
2010-07-07, 11:44 AM
I think I'd fall into the "full attack as a standard action" camp. I mean, this was the norm in AD&D. It's not much of a stretch.

OTOH, an extra move action can be used to, you know, move. Increasing everyone's mobility by 50% makes ranged combat less useful, giving archers another kick in the gut. More mobile characters need bigger battlefields to fight in, which means your physical map grid that you're all gathered around might not be big enough any more. My old group used to play on an 8x4 piece of flocked plywood gridded with 1" squares, and even with a board of that size, we often wished for more room. Increased mobility also means that everyone is moving 50% faster, which makes movement simulate real-world movement less well (many people won't really care about that).

lsfreak
2010-07-07, 01:34 PM
I agree with just making full attacks standard actions, rather than giving universal extra move actions. Extra actions can a) be easily abused, b) still favor casters, c) stretch suspension of disbelief even more.

Optimystik
2010-07-07, 02:02 PM
The problem I have with full attacks as standard actions - why would you ever not full attack, then? How would you represent the time difference between landing a single, highly-mobile strike (e.g. via Spring Attack) and simply running up to wail on the enemy? How would it affect the Scout? And while the change would buff melee classes, wouldn't it also buff summons?

zugschef
2010-07-07, 03:08 PM
i'd do it the other way round: increase casting times, because the main problem with casting is that most spells only take a standard action to cast.

on top i'd get rid of the "cast defensively"-option.

lsfreak
2010-07-07, 03:15 PM
i'd do it the other way round: increase casting times, because the main problem with casting is that most spells only take a standard action to cast.

on top i'd get rid of the "cast defensively"-option.

The problem is that there's still a huge difference between full attacking and standard-action attacks. Spells conflate the problem, but it's a problem no matter how long spells take to cast. Melee is still forced to either do a full attack and work at 100% efficiency, or move and work at a fraction of that, going from as many as 9-10 attacks down to 1.

zugschef
2010-07-07, 03:19 PM
The problem is that there's still a huge difference between full attacking and standard-action attacks. Spells conflate the problem, but it's a problem no matter how long spells take to cast. Melee is still forced to either do a full attack and work at 100% efficiency, or move and work at a fraction of that, going from as many as 9-10 attacks down to 1.
but if a spell takes a full round or longer to cast and you can't cast defensively the caster is in much greater danger to be attacked and fizzle his spell. -> the gap closes and casters are much more dependent on their non-caster buddies to protect them while casting.

Defiant
2010-07-07, 03:31 PM
Theres the Marshal ability which does something similiar to this called Grant Move Action. Its use is very limited though, 1/day per 4 Marshall levels, and its out of sequence.
Has anyone used this ?
What was the effect ?

Used this once, for excellent effect. It was early on, and I won initiative. I used my grant move action to allow everyone to move into position. They proceeded to destroy the enemy, thanks to flanking and positioning.

However, it's not always useful, it's more situational than you think, and the best application of it comes from the Marshal getting a high initiative (hopefully alongside his allies also getting high initiatives).

Gnomo
2010-07-07, 05:17 PM
Would it balance it a little bit if you make it into a feat and it spends your swift action:

Fast Movement
Benefit: You can move up to your land speed as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may take Fast Movement as a fighter bonus feat.

This will only grant the movement, not the extra move action and prevent most cheese presented in the thread so far. But i may add that this extra move idea is very similar to a Salient Divine Ability.

ericgrau
2010-07-07, 05:22 PM
You need to make sure the move actions are consecutive or it becomes a free spring (anything) for melee and casters alike. Personally I like the strategy involved in the trade-off between single+move and full+no move. I'd rather beef up melee in general, if you think they need it, rather than eliminating that trade-off.

Defiant
2010-07-07, 05:24 PM
Would it balance it a little bit if you make it into a feat and it spends your swift action:

Fast Movement
Benefit: You can move up to your land speed as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may take Fast Movement as a fighter bonus feat.

This will only grant the movement, not the extra move action and prevent most cheese presented in the thread so far. But i may add that this extra move idea is very similar to a Salient Divine Ability.

That would make the scout broken (though I'm sure there are high-op ways out there to get movement as a swift action anyways).

dextercorvia
2010-07-07, 05:53 PM
This is almost exactly what Travel Devotion does except that is only for 10 rounds 1/day unless you have turn attempts to burn.

And, IIRC, you may take the feat again to gain extra uses. Not as efficient as having turn attempts, but you don't lose any levels that way. Fighters don't exactly lack for feats (though you might have to move the order around).

Fax Celestis
2010-07-07, 05:58 PM
I would rather see the 5' step replaced with an X' step, where X = 1/2 your speed.

Defiant
2010-07-07, 06:00 PM
Haha, "step" :smalltongue:

nedz
2010-07-07, 06:19 PM
Would it balance it a little bit if you make it into a feat and it spends your swift action:

Fast Movement
Benefit: You can move up to your land speed as a swift action.
Special: A fighter may take Fast Movement as a fighter bonus feat.

This will only grant the movement, not the extra move action and prevent most cheese presented in the thread so far. But i may add that this extra move idea is very similar to a Salient Divine Ability.

This is like Pounce, only better.
I note from the pre-reqs suggested that its easier to get.
Not only can you do the obvious full-attack trick, but you could Fast Move and then Double Move every round; so +50% movement also.

Runestar
2010-07-07, 08:42 PM
What if we reworked the full-attack to use up only a standard action, say like a melee manyshot? This would allow melee to move and still make the equivalent of a full-attack, similar to martial adepts.

Zovc
2010-07-07, 09:40 PM
The problem I have with full attacks as standard actions - why would you ever not full attack, then?

If you're a Warblade who wants to get his/her maneuvers back? :smallwink:

Darrin
2010-07-07, 10:55 PM
The problem I have with full attacks as standard actions - why would you ever not full attack, then? How would you represent the time difference between landing a single, highly-mobile strike (e.g. via Spring Attack) and simply running up to wail on the enemy? How would it affect the Scout? And while the change would buff melee classes, wouldn't it also buff summons?

Why exactly would using full attack every time be a problem? Seems to me it solves more problems than it creates. Melee characters become more mobile and much more deadly... and they desperately need a boost to even pretend to keep up with spellcasters. Spring Attack actually becomes somewhat useful rather than a waste of three nearly useless feats. Scouts become much more viable melee scrappers, rather than "I coulda been a rogue" wannabes. Summons... ok, that may be a concern, but they still need a full round to cast, and you can nerf them on the first round by limiting them to one attack or give them the staggered condition.

It does make the full-round attack useless, but you can change that to "standard attack plus one extra attack at full BAB".

Runestar
2010-07-07, 11:26 PM
If you're a Warblade who wants to get his/her maneuvers back? :smallwink:
Warblades can refresh their maneuvers as part of a full-attack. :smallsmile:

IonDragon
2010-07-07, 11:31 PM
In my Player's Handbook, concentrating on a spell is still a standard action. YMMV.

You are correct. However (and this is what was messing me up) directing a Flaming Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flamingsphere.htm) or IIRC Manyjaws is in fact a Move Action (AFB)

jiriku
2010-07-08, 02:26 AM
The problem I have with full attacks as standard actions - why would you ever not full attack, then? How would you represent the time difference between landing a single, highly-mobile strike (e.g. via Spring Attack) and simply running up to wail on the enemy? How would it affect the Scout? And while the change would buff melee classes, wouldn't it also buff summons?

You would always full attack. Again, old-schoolers will remember this from AD&D. This favors people with high base attack or multiple weapons, but I hear those people could use the help.