immediate 5 foot step(3.5)

[stenver]

Would a feat, that grants the ability to 5 foot step with someone else, once a round, even when you already 5 foot stepped on your round be good for melee types?

To top it off, it would also give the ability to make defensive castings impossible.

That way, casters cant really cast in melee without putting themselves into danger.

Or if a feat is too much for it, maybe give it for free altogether?

Example:
Brute 5 foot steps near a caster and attacks him.
Caster decides to 5 foot step away, and cast a spell, but suddenly the brute follows him! He cant cast defensively either and moving away also provokes AoO. Way to learn to stay away from melee, as fragile casters should.

[PId6]

The feat is pretty useful, since it allows for both screwing casters and for getting into reach of enemies. The defensive casting nerf shouldn't really be in there when Mage Slayer is already a feat though.

[Eldan]

Hmm. Technically, you could just five-foot-step away from that guy who just charged you, thereby negating the charge...

Or: enemy declares full-attack. I make a five-foot step. Full-attack wasted?

That actually seems to screw quite a bit with a lot of melee builds.

[stenver]

No, i said that you can only 5 foot step with someone else. So if someone full charges you, you dont get a 5 foot step. If he full charges you and then 5 foot steps, you get that 5 foot step afterwards.

Mage slayer is not good enough, given how little number of feats a character gets.

[QuantumSteve]

I seem to remember a feat that let's you 5 ft step towards an enemy that 5 ft steps away, but it uses up your 5 ft step next turn.

This feat is much more powerful, and I can already see a few flaws. One in particular is the ability to completely avoid full attacks.

Round 1 Enemy moves up and attacks.
You full attack then 5 ft step away.
Round 2 Enemy 5 foot steps toward you, you immediate step away. Enemy can't move since he already 5 ft stepped.

Alternatively,
Round 2 Knowing he can't 5 ft step, Enemy moves up and attacks
You full attack and 5 ft step away.

I like the concept (especially against mages) but I think it needs a little more thought

[PId6]

Increase the number of feats then. I go with 2 feats at 1st level, and one every odd level after that.

[2xMachina]

Psion wins this though.
Inconstant location. What's that? You're next to me? I'm swift move without provoking AoO.

EDIT: 6th lvl, lasts 10 rounds.

[Snake-Aes]

There are two or three maneuvers in Tome of Battle that do exactly that. When an enemy moves away of withdraws, you can follow up to your movement as an immediate action(you must end adjacent to the guy that moved). I don't know about other sources of such movement.

[unre9istered]

I thought there was a feat that let you take a 5' step if someone adjacent to you took one. The only version I can find is Pursue, from the Eberron Campaign Setting, which requires an action point, so it only works if your using those.
A second 5 foot step per round is a big deal though, if you can do it as often as you want without some kind of resource expenditure (i.e. action points as above) that seems too powerful to me. As someone already said, take Mage Slayer to block defensive casting.

[nedz]

You can do it with Exploit Adjustment and Opportunistic Tactician both from Dragon 340.
The first generates an AoO when someone you threaten takes a 5' step, and the second allows you to take a 5' step after an AoO.
You can replace Opportunistic Tactician with Sidestep from the Minitures Handbook, both do prettty much the same thing.

[Saph]

It's called Step Up (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#step-up), and it's a feat in Pathfinder. It's actually pretty good if you expect your melee fighter to face casters or ranged attackers on a regular basis (or anyone who might try to get away from you, really).

[Psyx]

"To top it off, it would also give the ability to make defensive castings impossible."

Why?

That's way too good, especially when mageslayer isn't even remotely as good.
Saying 'you get too few feats' doesn't really cut it as a reason for making a feat that's better than already established ones.

[2xMachina]

So that you can't say melee don't get nice things?

[Khellendross]

I recall seeing a feat or skill trick or something that does just that. Maybe it was in pathfinder but there is a feat that does that. Also there is a maneuver that allows you to make one when someone attacks you as an immediate action avoiding the attack all together called shifting defense but it used one of your AoO for the round(I like this one mixed with combat reflexes for some good defense). Then there is a white raven stance that allows for 10' steps basically. Says you can make two 5' steps.

[Saph]

I recall seeing a feat or skill trick or something that does just that. Maybe it was in pathfinder but there is a feat that does that.

Pathfinder. Step Up (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#step-up).

[Khellendross]

Pathfinder. Step Up (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#step-up).

Thank you Saph, I knew I saw one. I missed your post where you already said it.

[Person_Man]

How to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5707409). Selections you might find pertinent:

Evasive Reflexes feat grants you a 5 ft step in place of any attack of opportunity. ToB.
Wizard Alternate Class Feature lets you give up your Familiar for an Immediate Action 10 ft transportation limited times per day. PHBII.
Flicker mystery lets you move 5 ft per mystery-user level as an Immediate action. Standard Action to cast, but it lasts rounds/level. Probably the best and only good thing about playing a Shadowcaster. Tome of Magic.
Sidestep feat grants you a 5 ft step after any attack of opportunity (in addition to the attack), but only once per round, and it requires Dodge, Mobility, Dex 15, and ranks in Tumble, OR 2 levels of Tactical Soldier. Miniatures Handbook.
Cunning Evasion feat gives you a 5 ft step and a free Hide check (usually part of a Move Action) whenever you use Evasion. PHBII.
Celerity spells grant you a Move, Standard, or Full Round Action as an Immediate Action, though you are Dazed the next turn. PHBII.
Wolf Pack Tactics Tiger Claw stance gives you a free 5 ft step after every successful melee attack. ToB.
Eternal Blade capstone (ECL 20) lets you take your turn as an Immediate Action without changing your place in the Initiative count (ie, you get to interrupt an enemy and get two turns in one round) once per encounter. ToB.


So as you can see, what you want already exists within certain limitations.

I would also add that there are several pre-existing methods of locking down an enemy in the way you desire. Some combination of Knight abilities, Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, Grapple, Trip, harpoon, net, lasso, and/or debuff effects combined with any of the above should accomplish what you wish.

[Gametime]

"To top it off, it would also give the ability to make defensive castings impossible."

Why?

That's way too good, especially when mageslayer isn't even remotely as good.
Saying 'you get too few feats' doesn't really cut it as a reason for making a feat that's better than already established ones.

Defensive casting being eliminated would go a long way towards making casters less dominant, at least at low-to-mid levels. By high levels, it's trivial to stay out of reach anyway.

And hey, it would give you a reason to pump Concentration past +14. Let's see you make those Concentration checks equal to damage suffered!

[2xMachina]

How to get Pounce or Free Movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5707409). Selections you might find pertinent:

Evasive Reflexes feat grants you a 5 ft step in place of any attack of opportunity. ToB.
Wizard Alternate Class Feature lets you give up your Familiar for an Immediate Action 10 ft transportation limited times per day. PHBII.
Flicker mystery lets you move 5 ft per mystery-user level as an Immediate action. Standard Action to cast, but it lasts rounds/level. Probably the best and only good thing about playing a Shadowcaster. Tome of Magic.
Sidestep feat grants you a 5 ft step after any attack of opportunity (in addition to the attack), but only once per round, and it requires Dodge, Mobility, Dex 15, and ranks in Tumble, OR 2 levels of Tactical Soldier. Miniatures Handbook.
Cunning Evasion feat gives you a 5 ft step and a free Hide check (usually part of a Move Action) whenever you use Evasion. PHBII.
Celerity spells grant you a Move, Standard, or Full Round Action as an Immediate Action, though you are Dazed the next turn. PHBII.
Wolf Pack Tactics Tiger Claw stance gives you a free 5 ft step after every successful melee attack. ToB.
Eternal Blade capstone (ECL 20) lets you take your turn as an Immediate Action without changing your place in the Initiative count (ie, you get to interrupt an enemy and get two turns in one round) once per encounter. ToB.


So as you can see, what you want already exists within certain limitations.

I would also add that there are several pre-existing methods of locking down an enemy in the way you desire. Some combination of Knight abilities, Thicket of Blades, Mage Slayer, Grapple, Trip, harpoon, net, lasso, and/or debuff effects combined with any of the above should accomplish what you wish.

Should add inconstant location for the psionic. 10 rounds, swift action teleport your speed.

[stenver]

But as we all know, casters are too good. If defensive casting would be impossible, then they really wouldnt be that good, they would actually have to be careful.

The only exception to defensive casting could be touch spells.

But no longer can a mage run right into the fight and then just 5 foot step away every time. He would have to focus more on defense and more on staying far away.

At low levels, its a big deal.
At high levels, not so much, but still a little.

So Step Up feat combined with eliminated defensive casting could weaken casters well.

After all, defensive casting, what the hell is that? I cant even imagine that. As the magic description says: Somatic spells require very precise hand movement. So what. How more precise can you be while defensive.




[URL="http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5707409"] Selections you might find pertinent:

Yes, but none of those let you step up right after the caster steps away or are very class specific.

Being limited to 1 5 foot step on your turn and 1(!) 5 foot step when it is not your turn turn IF that someone steps away, isnt too powerful

[Milskidasith]

Casters are borked because of the spells, not because they can casually walk up to melee range and avoid attacks. Not that they can't, but generally it's not worth the resources to put yourself at risk like that.

Besides, Greater Mirror Image is better than a five foot step anyway. And what's to stop Casters taking this feat to avoid the five foot steps of melee full attackers? It's just as bad for melee as it is for casters, except casters can be at ranged anyway.

[Fax Celestis]

There is a feat that does this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#step-up). See also: Evasive Reflexes in ToB.

Benefit: When an opponent gives you a chance to make an attack of opportunity, you can instead immediately take 5-foot step.
Special: Evasive Reflexes can be used in place of Combat Reflexes to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. You can take both this feat and Combat Reflexes.

[Milskidasith]

There is a feat that does this (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/feats.html#step-up). See also: Evasive Reflexes in ToB.


That only works if you have a method to get an AoO when the opponent five foot steps.

[Fax Celestis]

Thicket of Blades?

[Milskidasith]

Thicket of Blades?

While that does work, obviously, it doesn't change the feat being suggested is, while similar in purpose, not exactly the same as the feat you posted, so labeling it as such is a misnomer.

This feat: When the opponent makes a five foot step only.

Linked feat: When the opponent provokes an AoO only.

While the two may overlap, they have situations where only one or the other applies (non ToB'd five foot step and moving through your threatened area, to give an example for each).

[ericgrau]

5 foot stepping away from melee opens up a caster to a full attack next round. He's better off moving away and taking the attack of opportunity.

[Curmudgeon]

5 foot stepping away from melee opens up a caster to a full attack next round. He's better off moving away and taking the attack of opportunity.
Or taking a 5' step and casting a spell that will prevent the full attack ─ like Wall of Force.

[stenver]

except with this feat, he really cant move away, because melee man is right behind him.

I dont see how casters benefit from it so much, after all, they usually dont need to 5 foot step after an enemy

[2xMachina]

Evade your opponent melee who does this?

5' step.
Melee follows
Caster immediately 5' steps away again and laughs.

[Psyx]

Best way of following up on a pacing caster that I've used was most certainly my Assassin taking a level in Summoner. Step...cast*BAMPH*stab

[Saph]

From watching it in action, Step Up is actually pretty good against casters if you can get close enough.

Caster's action: 5-step away.
Melee immediate action: Activate Step Up. 5-foot step, follow.

The caster is now kind of hosed. Since he's taken a 5-foot step, he can't move again on his turn (and having Step Up himself doesn't help, because Step Up only works on enemies moving away from you). So the caster has to defensively cast, which is much harder in Pathfinder.

The full combo would be something like Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip + Step Up + some way to make defensive casting harder. That way if the enemy moves away and takes the AoO, you trip them and stop them moving, and if they 5-foot step, you follow. Best of all, it works against more than just casters. Playing an anti-caster build is generally a bit pointless because you very rarely fight only humanoid spellcasting enemies - normally you fight stuff from the Monster Manual. But lockdown builds work equally well against anything with SLAs and anything that relies on ranged attacks.

[Thinker]

Would a feat, that grants the ability to 5 foot step with someone else, once a round, even when you already 5 foot stepped on your round be good for melee types?

To top it off, it would also give the ability to make defensive castings impossible.

That way, casters cant really cast in melee without putting themselves into danger.

Or if a feat is too much for it, maybe give it for free altogether?

Example:
Brute 5 foot steps near a caster and attacks him.
Caster decides to 5 foot step away, and cast a spell, but suddenly the brute follows him! He cant cast defensively either and moving away also provokes AoO. Way to learn to stay away from melee, as fragile casters should.

Unless you're talking about gishes, clerics, druids, and the like, spellcasters generally avoid melee anyway. They also have fairly reliable defenses beyond AC (miss chance and the like). The spellcaster's ability to cast is not the problem; the problem lies with the variety and strength of their spells. If you really want to balance the core casters, you would have to specifically target the spells that make them so powerful and rewrite them, while fixing the problem of spellcasters improving geometrically, while everyone else does so linearly.

I don't see this as being a balancing factor for casters since most of the game is not PvP unless you give the feat to all of your monsters and have them target casters (in which case you may as well just tell your players not to play casters). If you're worried about spellcasters ruining your game, just talk to your players. If you only do pvp, fight spells with spells. If this is merely a thought exercise, I recommend just using the Pathfinder feat for future discussion.

[Person_Man]

Yes, but none of those let you step up right after the caster steps away or are very class specific.

Well, if it's class specific, then that's a good reason to play that class. Not everyone should get an automatic "casters lose" button to press.

Having said that, there are many other options that people have listed.

Use a net, razor net, lasso, (all touch attacks) or harpoon. Once your enemy is hit, they are entangled and can't move away from you unless they beat you on a Strength check. When used in conjunction with armor spikes, spiked gauntlets, unarmed strikes, TWF, Multi-Weapon Fighting, or natural weapons, it's an effective way to keep your enemy within your threatened area.

Or you can use Grapple.

Or you can use Thicket of Blades + Evasive Reflexes.

Or use status effects (Dazed, Stunned, Paralyzed, Cowering, and maybe Nauseated depending on how you read it). If you have a weapon or ability that imparts such an effect, and you Pounce on your enemy, chances are that your target will fail one of their Saves.

You can also box in casters with Summoned monsters and walls. They can't step into an occupied square.

The point is, there are plenty of existing tactical options for accomplishing the stated goal.