View Full Version : More gish help.

2010-07-07, 08:45 AM
I've never played a true gish, and I would like to try it for once. I commonly play a swordsage which seems close to a gish. As for books, I have core, PH2, CWar, CAdv, ToB, and ToM. I personally would like to stay away from wizards and clerics if possible. And important note, DM houserules: Says that your starting class should always have the most levels. And you can only mutliclass once, if I smile and ask real nice I may be able to get a total of three class, but I already know two of them would have to be base classes.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-07, 09:06 AM
Go for a Dimond Mind focused Warblade / Psion. Take two levels of warblade per psion level. Psion won't hurt to bad as a supporting roll for the loss of manifester level. Use it for those nice low level buffs like inertial armor and force screen. Consider picking up expansion or the self healing power with expanded knowledge to get them as level 2 powers. I wouldn't try for this far after 6th level, as the power loss will just cripple you. After 9th I would just go full warblade and forget the psion side.

Another option that has more power is a warblade / dread necromancer that goes into JPM from ToB. Take tomb tainted for free self healing, and DR is always nice. Plus you look into maybe useing your negative energy touch attack to use your warblade strikes, turning most of your attacks into touch attacks. That would allow you to dump strength and take weapon finesse for dex to the attacks. You loose the ability to add str to damage, but that is worth a touch attack. Your strikes + punishing stance does enough damage anyway.

Ruby Knight Vindicator is a great class. That takes divine spellcasting for entry. Cleric is your best bet, but you said to avoid that. The class is really good though, and cleric is a great class to stack with warblade.

In general Warblade is a better Gish class that swordsage. The warblade has the high HD and full BaB that you need to make up for the physicaly weaker casting side. That being said there are some good swordsage / cleric / ruby knight vindicator builds.

Keld Denar
2010-07-07, 09:10 AM
You are really limited to make a "good" gish, who gets 9th level spells and 16+ BAB. You could go like, Fighter1/Sorcerer6/EK10/Sorcerer+3.

Really, you kinda need CMage for Abjurant Champion. There is a reason it appears in every gish build ever. Full BAB, full casting, and increases your defenses nicely. Also, the 3 classes thing kinda hurts you.


Alternatively, Ardent8/Swordsage1/Ardent+2/Swordsage+1/Ardent+2/Swordsage+1/Ardent+2/Swordsage+1/Ardent+rest.

Take Practiced Manifester and you'll still end up with full Ardent casting progression, you'll just be 4 powers short, but you'll still get your normal alotment of 9th level powers.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-07, 09:22 AM
There is also the Bardblade, useing 4 levels of bard and song of the white raven.

BUt really the above is right. If you really want to gish well, take abjurent chamption. Take warblade and full acrance casting class (preferably wizard) into JPM with one level of warblade, then finish out with abjurent champion for full casting with a side of warblade. This will give you great defences for very cheap.

2010-07-07, 09:44 AM
I don't have any books with psions. So I can't use them. I don't have the dread necro either. I can try looking at warblades, but I have no experience with them. And where is the RKV located again?

EDIT: And like I said in the first post, I'm limited to my classes looking like this: Class1x/Class2x... Just two classes.. Maybe three but it would be a matter of luck.

2010-07-07, 09:48 AM
I don't have any books with psions. So I can't use them.

Psions are available free on the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/psion.htm), along with just about everything else from the XPH. Take a look!

I don't have the dread necro either.

You can find these in Heroes of Horror.

I can try looking at warblades, but I have no experience with them. And where is the RKV located again?

Both of these are in Tome of Battle, and Warblades (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) are online for free as well, along with every maneuver. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20061225a)

2010-07-07, 09:51 AM
Ok, I can look at the RKV again. And like I said, I know about warblades, just never used one, I prefer the swordsage but I shall still look. And do you know if the tomb of horror is online as well? And glancing at the psion link.... This seems slightly confusing at first..

2010-07-07, 09:52 AM
Sorcerer/Binder/Anima Mage? Just using the material in core and Tome of Magic, you can do a lot of interesting things.

2010-07-07, 09:57 AM
I think I like it. Binders are my second favorite class. Hm.. primary class: sorcerer or binder? And to whom should my feats go..

2010-07-07, 10:01 AM
And do you know if the tomb of horror is online as well? And glancing at the psion link.... This seems slightly confusing at first..

It's just like magic, only it uses points instead of slots and has no verbal/somatic components. This means that, even though they lack armor proficiency, if you get said proficiency later you can wear heavy armor and manifest without worry.

The Psion Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1036.0) and The Basics (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/psionicPowersOverview.htm) can get you started.

EDIT: As for HoH - parts of it are online, but the Archivist was released, not the Dread Necro I'm afraid.

2010-07-07, 10:04 AM
Ok.. psions have my attention for now.. I shall do some in depth reading soon

2010-07-07, 10:31 AM
I think I like it. Binders are my second favorite class. Hm.. primary class: sorcerer or binder? And to whom should my feats go..

Sorcerer 5/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10. Take the Improved Binder feat to gain entry into Anima Mage. This way you're only giving up 1 caster level in exchange for some useful vestiges.

Potentially good feat choices:

Arcane Strike: Burn arcane spells to gain an untyped bonus to hit and damage (ie, you can burn multiple spells at once). Complete Warrior pg 96.
Mobile Spellcasting: If a spell is a Standard Action, you can make a Concentration check to move as part of the same action. Comp Adventurer pg 111.
Winged Warrior: As a Move Action you can create a hemisphere of concealment (for those in the cloud) and total concealment (for those trying to look into the cloud) around you. Cast a Standard Action spell, use Mobile Spellcasting to move away from your enemies, and then use your Move Action to activate this feat and prevent counter attack. Requires that you have wings (Dragonborn, Raptorian). Naberius vestige also offers the ability to Disguise Self at will (or you can cast it yourself, or buy a Hat of Disguise), so you can potentially create an area of total concealment around you and an enemy, kill the enemy inside the sphere, and then emerge from the sphere looking like the enemy you killed. It will be a round or two before his friends Spot the difference. Just another fun combat trick. Races of the Wild pg 153.
Improved Familiar: Familiars share your BAB, have 1/2 your hit points, and can share spells. This feat can make your Familiar even better, giving you an excellent tag team partner or mount. Complete Warrior pg 100.
Combat Panache: Offers several maneuvers. The main benefit is that you can make an Intimidate check (Move Action) to impose your Cha bonus as a penalty to hit against one enemy until the end of the encounter. In addition, after an enemy hits you, you can make a Bluff check to play dead. So if you’re close to death and afraid of multiple attacks before you can heal or run away, this will make your enemies ignore you for until you choose to get up. The only downside is that the feat requires 8 ranks in Bluff, Intimidate, and Perform, so you won't be able to gain access until ECL 12ish. PHBII pg 93.
Imperious Command: When you Demoralize an enemy (using Intimidate), they Cower for the first round and are Shaken on the next. Ridiculously useful against certain enemies. With Fearsome Armor (same book) you can Demoralize as a Move Action. Drow of the Underdark pg. 50.
Staggering Strike: When you Sneak Attack with a melee weapon, your enemy must Save or be Staggered for 1 turn, which prevents them from making a full attack or any other action that requires a full round (summoning, metamagic for spontaneous casters, etc). Several Vestiges offer Sneak Attack or Sudden Strike (which qualifies for Sneak Attack feats). Comp Adventurer pg 112.
Insane Defiance: As an Immediate Action when you are targeted by a Mind Affecting spell or spell like ability, you can take a point of Wis damage to redirect it to another target. Dahlver-Nar offers immunity to Wis damage, and Naberius can heal any ability damage. Elder Evils pg 13.
Dark Speech: A potent low level Fear effect that loses effectiveness as your enemies gain hit die. Can also raise caster level by 1, effect item hardness, or command a Swarm. Deals Cha damage to you each time you use it, so you need to bind Naberius. Elder Evils pg 12.
Dark Whispers: Augments Dark Speech, making it Confuse enemies with higher HD then you. Elder Evils pg 12.
Slave to Evil: Gives you evil aura. As you gain hit dice, benefits improve. Stronger aura can improve Spell Resistance against Divine spells by 5, and can prevent Divine spell casting. I would only take this at ECL 15+. Requires Chosen of Evil feat. Elder Evils pg 14.
Energy Substitution (Cold) + Lord of the Uttercold: Now any Energy spell you cast can be 50% Cold damage and 50% Negative Energy. Bind Acererak. You are now immune to Cold and healed by Negative Energy. (Note, you can also accomplish this with the Tome Tainted Soul feat and magic items that grants resistance to Cold damage). Move into the middle of combat, dump an Uttercold Fireball with you and your enemies in the radius, and heal yourself while damaging them. For bonus points, Summon Undead and do the same to them and/or take the Undead Familiar feat. Complete Arcane pg 80.
Contagious Paralysis: Anyone who touches someone that you paralyze with a Supernatural ability must Save or be paralyzed as well. Acererak grants a supernatural paralyze ability that lasts multiple rounds. Paralyze an enemy, and then you or an ally can Bull Rush them into other enemies. Libris Mortis pg 25.

And as always, the standard Metamagic abuse feats (Quicken Spell, Extraordinary Spell Aim, Enlarge Spell, etc.) are good ideas, though I tend not to take them until ECL 12 or higher.

2010-07-07, 01:50 PM
Bard 6/ Crusader or Warblade 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Jade Phoenix Mage 8 - 17 BAB, 9th level spells, IL 16