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Parra
2010-07-07, 10:10 AM
As well all know, its a fairly classic set-up having the Evil Wizard/Fiend/BBEG try to tempt the heroes away from the good side to try and join Team Evil, usually through bribes, trickery, the promise of power and other standard fare.

But how does the Saint/Angle/BBGG tempt an evil player to joining Team Good?

Specifically, in my own campaign, the party is an out and out evil group. Paladins of Tyranny, Clerics of Hextor, Tiamat worshiping druids, Assassins and other unsavoury types abound.
There main adversary is going to be a (slightly modified) Solar who, for various reasons, isn't going to kill them on sight (at least not right away) and is going try to redeem at least some of the party.

But Im absolutely stumped as to how I would go about it.
Any suggestions?

Edit:
Additional info:

The Campagin: Planescape 3.5 Plenty of plane hopping going on.

The Party:
1. Paladin of Tyrranny Ordained Champion of Hextor, Lex.
One of the most forceful personalites in the group and the most organised. He seeks essentially to carve the biggest Empire possible in Hextors name (perferablly over as many dead Heironous followers as possible), with the hope of securing his 'rightful place' at Hextors side.
He is probably the toughest one in the group try to redeem, so he probably wont be who I go after. However if he gets an inkling that someone else in the group is turning against him, I have no doubt he will stike hard against them.

2. Monk of Hextor, Sun Tzu.
Essentially Lex's lap dog, anything Lex does is all good in Sun Tzu's book. Is of the firm belief that every situation can be resolved with the liberal application of fire, though thats most reigned in by Lex. He doesnt seem to have any personal goals beyond 'get more powerful'.
Hard to redeem because of his close partnership with Lex.

3. Cleric of Hextor, Marcus.
If its possible to avoid exerting himself he will, similar to Lex & Sun Tzu he seeks to gain power and become the living embodiment of Hextor. However his extreme lazyness and apathy to doing any actual work (all in character) will probably prevent him from achieving greatness.
I believe that if I caused him to become disillusioned enough with Hextor then he might be swayed, but it would be hard to do consider Lex's zeal.

4. Ping Ping the kobold druid.
In a break from the Hextor theme, Ping Ping worships Tiamat and believes that dragons are the perfect physical embodiments of elemental forces. His goal is simple, sacrifice as many Metallic Dragons to Tiamat as possible. He is using the rest of the group to help get them, which there happy to do becuase of the promise of the dragon horde.
He ultimatly wants to become a true (green) dragon himself.
Oddly this guy is... not quite anti-Hextor, but certainly mistrustful of Lex/ While they agree on many points, Lex's goal of empire building doesnt mesh well with Ping Ping's.
He might be redeemed, but it would be a hard sell and would have to involve dragons somehow.

5. The Assassin, Mist.
Easily the most cloak n dagger party member. Definatly resents Lex's dominance in the group and while he is the groups other most forceful personality he is also one of the least vocal. He is all aboard with Lex's empire building goal, but I know he is looking of leveage to steer the group to his own agenda (not sure what that is yet tbh).
Definatly the voice of reason in the group and tends to curb most of there more excessive plans.
Probably the most open in the group to a old fasion redemption/temptation plot.

6. The Highspeed Meatshield, Amy.
Of the group she is definatly the least evil. Stangely how a typical meatshield she seeks knowledge and wants to learn about everything. Not entirely sure why yet as she is also one of the quieter players but also one of the most easily led.

7. It Go Boom Now? Sorcerer Nezuraty
Unfortuantly a pretty 2D charcter, just goes with the flow of the group. Doesnt cae what they are doing so long as he isn't getting screwed over.
No long term goals that Im aware of. Probably the player i need to work on most to get more involved and in-depth with the game.

The groups in generals goal's:
Long Term: Carve the Biggest Empire possible
Mid Term: Gather a vast army, hire themselves out as mercs until they can move to the long term goal.
Short term: Slave trade. Find as many weakly/undefended towns as they can, capture who they can (slaughtering the rest) and sell the slaves as fodder to Devils (very specfically Devils, given the groups mostly Lawful disposition) thereby ammassing a big enough fortune to support a large army.

Their Enemy:
A solar who is the physical embodiment of The Greater Good (as opposed to a specific God). He led the orginal combined forces of the Heavens against the fiends way back when the multiverse was still young. After they got there rears firmly handed to them he became know as 'The Shame of the Heavens'
His ultimate goal is to bring the combined forces, of the Heavens (kicking and screaming if neccessary) back into the Blood War and defeat the Fiends once and for all and thereby redeem himself in the eyes of his peers.
Part of that involves using a slightly modified Emerald Legion (as found elsewhere on this site) as the main weapon in his crusade. The problem is that they are hidden and locked away on one of Pandamoniums Layers.

Where does the group fit into this?
Well.... they (and there ancestors before them) were selectivly bred by the Solar to act as the final component in creating an Artifact that will allow him to access and control the Emerald Legion. However he only needs 3 of them and they need to be willing (he wont be telling them that ofc). If he needs to use mind control abilities he will, but he would prefer them to be willing.
He has interacted with the group on a number of occasions (though they dont realise he is a solar) and he has sent them off on various missions collecting parts to make said Artifact, with the added bonus that it is 'enriching there souls in preperation for the sacrifice'

If this sounds a little evil for a solar, well your not wrong. But I figure that sometimes in order to achieve a Greater Good its neccessary to do a little evil.
Besides its my game and I say its ok :smallbiggrin:

As an aside, there are 2 other forces seeking to influnce the group. Both Devils and Demons are trying to bring them under thier control, but I have there plans down to a T. Its all interconnected.

Prodan
2010-07-07, 10:15 AM
Offer peace, stability, and serenity.

2xMachina
2010-07-07, 10:17 AM
Promise of the Good afterlife?

Parra
2010-07-07, 10:18 AM
Offer peace, stability, and serenity.

Why would a power hungry Paladin of Tyranny find that appealing?

or an Assassin out to make a name for himself and get rich at the same time?

or any of ther other evil sterotypes?

balistafreak
2010-07-07, 10:19 AM
Usually it's something along the lines of:

Your goal is better acheived through good. (Unless their goal is hedonism and evil unto itself, which describes a great deal of Evil parties. :smallannoyed:)

Good feels good. (Again, you probably have an evil party because they take pleasure in villainy, so yeah.)

Something compels you so that you must be good. (Be good or you don't go to heaven. Usually not very much a deterrent.)

Your described party is evil; with all due respect, you're probably screwed from the get-go. Unlike in real life, where people (usually) at least superficially consider what they're doing, in the game they'll just say "Screw it, I'm evil for the ev-lulz" and steamroll your pathetic attempts at converting them without a thought, because they are playing this game not for the sake of playing it, but to be evil. So yeah.

Saph
2010-07-07, 10:19 AM
Personal loyalties, for a start. Everybody who isn't a cartoonishy evil villain has SOMETHING they care about and treat well - family, loves, etc. Try to generalise from that.


Your described party is evil; with all due respect, you're probably screwed from the get-go. Unlike in real life, where people (usually) at least superficially consider what they're doing, in the game they'll just say "Screw it, I'm evil for the ev-lulz" and steamroll your pathetic attempts at converting them without a thought, because they are playing this game not for the sake of playing it, but to be evil. So yeah.

. . . but yeah, it's quite likely that if you're playing an evil campaign they ARE all going to be cartoonishly evil villains.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-07, 10:20 AM
we have cake? also

Our women are WAY HOTTER

Good=Angels: long blonde hair, large fantastic. . . . eyes. . . and skin that makes babys look like sandpaper. . .


Evil=Marilith: scales, dirty, claws, and . . . well the snake tail for a backend kinda poses a problem. . .

LongVin
2010-07-07, 10:20 AM
You offer them cookies and candy. And tell them the forces of good have unlimited supplies of the two.

Revlid
2010-07-07, 10:21 AM
If the Heterodynes managed to tempt Lucrezia (admittedly, something appears to have gone horribly wrong at some point afterwards), I'm sure you can.

Prodan
2010-07-07, 10:23 AM
Why would a power hungry Paladin of Tyranny find that appealing?

or an Assassin out to make a name for himself and get rich at the same time?

or any of ther other evil sterotypes?

Let me answer your question with a question: Why would a hero find the temptations of evil appealing?

Shademan
2010-07-07, 10:23 AM
angelic tits?
*slap'd*
I'm sooorryyyyy!

srsly tho' more info on the characters please. RP info. no mechanics needed

2xMachina
2010-07-07, 10:24 AM
Look hot?

That managed to convert a always CE with subtype to LG...

kamikasei
2010-07-07, 10:26 AM
If all they want is power or evulz or whatever, then it won't work. If they're more three-dimensional characters who have values and goals and things they love and hate, then you have the opportunity to appeal to their better natures, which is harder than playing on their dark sides but certainly possible.

The thing is, you're not saying "come to the Light Side and you'll get something awesome!". You're saying "you can stop doing evil, and be forgiven if you work to make amends - you're not so far gone that you have to keep going. You can have people at your back and not constantly fear they're sharpening knives. The things you accomplish will take on a life beyond yours, and you'll be happier and more fulfilled. Do the right thing."

If the character has no qualms about the evil they do, never gets tired of being in a dog-eat-dog situation, and doesn't care about their own image of themselves and believing that they're in the right... then such a pitch won't find much purchase.

chiasaur11
2010-07-07, 10:27 AM
It doesn't.

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 10:27 AM
Remind them that the afterlife (generally) tends to suck for Evil characters- their deities tend to do horrible things to their souls, or trade them away to night hags or devils (which may end up with the soul being tormented to the point of destruction and transformed into a lemure.

Plus- good has its own rewards to offer. Less infighting, generous divine blessings, and so on.

Lord Loss
2010-07-07, 10:32 AM
If all they want is power or evulz or whatever, then it won't work. If they're more three-dimensional characters who have values and goals and things they love and hate, then you have the opportunity to appeal to their better natures, which is harder than playing on their dark sides but certainly possible.

The thing is, you're not saying "come to the Light Side and you'll get something awesome!". You're saying "you can stop doing evil, and be forgiven if you work to make amends - you're not so far gone that you have to keep going. You can have people at your back and not constantly fear they're sharpening knives. The things you accomplish will take on a life beyond yours, and you'll be happier and more fulfilled. Do the right thing."

If the character has no qualms about the evil they do, never gets tired of being in a dog-eat-dog situation, and doesn't care about their own image of themselves and believing that they're in the right... then such a pitch won't find much purchase.

This. Although, I'd have to say that instead of tempting evil, Good redeems it.

Chrono22
2010-07-07, 10:34 AM
Love. Unfortunately this isn't a tool that's readily available to an adventuring party, as they seem to use almost solely destructive powers to achieve their goals.

Totally Guy
2010-07-07, 10:43 AM
Use some Game Theory (http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1899)! That ought to set them on the right path. :tongue:

gallagher
2010-07-07, 10:46 AM
we have cake? also

Our women are WAY HOTTER

Good=Angels: long blonde hair, large fantastic. . . . eyes. . . and skin that makes babys look like sandpaper. . .


Evil=Marilith: scales, dirty, claws, and . . . well the snake tail for a backend kinda poses a problem. . .

that was my first idea. the second idea involves the chaotic neautral bard/rogue slipping a highly addictive drug into their brownies, and tell the evil person that there are plenty more on the good side.

also, the good side has job security. there is a significantly lower statistic of betrayal amongst the good and pure of heart

Ormagoden
2010-07-07, 10:46 AM
1. Get good guys to trust you
2. Send them dreams of loved ones being murdered
3. Allow them to confide their emotions in you
4. Empower their emotions so they are less rational
5. Use loss of loved ones to fuel anger
6. Make sure you're there to pick up the pieces and provide council
7. Temp the good guy with promises you cannot fulfill
8. Send Anakin to kill Jedi babies
9. ???
10. Intergalactic profit!


Strike that! Reverse it!

kamikasei
2010-07-07, 10:48 AM
This. Although, I'd have to say that instead of tempting evil, Good redeems it.

Yes. I would say that, for characters who aren't just card-carrying Evil Just Because villains, they would probably like to be good. They'd like to think they're good people, and not have to go through too many mental gymnastics to justify that to themselves. The trick is to first get them to admit that what they're doing isn't good, if they're denying that to themselves - and then get it across to them that just because they've been doing evil doesn't mean they themselves are irredeemably evil people who have to keep doing evil because they're too tainted to do or deserve good.

This is hard to do. Love and forgiveness are the keys. Both are difficult to portray if a player isn't interested.

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 10:51 AM
Good Feels Good might be a part- it feels nice when people are looking at you in admiration instead of fear, and gratitude can be enjoyable to experience.

balistafreak
2010-07-07, 10:53 AM
Good Feels Good might be a part- it feels nice when people are looking at you in admiration instead of fear, and gratitude can be enjoyable to experience.

This is not true for a cartoonishly-evil character. He'll view any suggestion of this as a threat to his sanity, not as something postive.

... is it clear enough that I hate evil parties? :smallannoyed:

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 10:57 AM
Cartoonishly evil isn't going to like the suggestion, true.

However, an "I'll try anything once" villain might be willing to do something "good" just to see what it feels like.

And if the player's willing to play along, it could be the beginning of a path to improvement.

Coidzor
2010-07-07, 10:58 AM
Beefcake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148945) and cheesecake (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148957), mostly.

Bagelz
2010-07-07, 11:00 AM
Temp them with something they do not have.
You temp goody goodies with sex wealth anything pleasurable that they have been depriving themselves of.

What feels good that your bad guys have been depriving themselves of?
Emotional ties with other people?
Are they so evil that children run a way screaming? (while extremely entertaining, it is also lonely).
Do people point at them and tell they are good for nothing scoundrels? do they need a little positive reenforcement? ("great job slaughtering that nobleman, it was almost artistic").
Do they get jealous when the "good guy" foils their plans and everyone cheers for him? Just once wouldn't they like someone to do something for them without threating their wellbeing?
Are they tired of always being on the run and not being able to take a vacation?

CockroachTeaParty
2010-07-07, 11:01 AM
Interestingly, you could try having the party suffer at the hands of an even greater evil. If they are truly hurt, wronged, betrayed, etc., perhaps even by people they thought were allies, that might seed the questioning of the benefits of evil. Also, if the Good guys repeatedly offer them the chance for salvation and forgiveness, perhaps they will begin to wonder how many chances they have before the Heavens unleash the big guns. Eventually, the Greater Good will be to stop the party from doing their thing in order to save innocents, and that's when that Solar's composite longbow of Doom comes into play.

The Book of Exalted Deeds gives Good some interesting big guns. Maybe toss an Apostle of Peace at them. Maybe after a casting of End to Strife, the party will be forced for a few moments to not fight. Perhaps in the absence of violence as a viable option, they'll be forced to talk... and realize things they might have been using violence to ignore or mask.

Of course, if they repeatedly refuse and stick to their guns, I'd gladly unleash glowing, golden, exalted, righteous pain on their asses, accompanied by a triumphant boys' choir.

Edit: Oh, and take a look at Sanctify the Wicked. It's a good last resort.

Person_Man
2010-07-07, 11:02 AM
Read some Plato. Worldly things which Evil seeks - power, money, sex, status - are (by themselves) empty. When you spend too much of your life seeking them and/or when you finally attain them, they isolate you from any real love or friendship, because people fear you and/or are sycophants and/or you are isolated from others because of it. And all of the fruits of Evil will eventually turn to dust. From the highest pontiff and leader to the lowest pauper and mook, we are all united in death (and potentially judgement and the afterlife). Whatever Evil can offer you, it will eventually lead to your unhappiness and ruin. Thus, a reasonable person will seek Good.

Aroka
2010-07-07, 11:17 AM
You need to get personal. If the characters are deep and realistic, they're not just Evil-aligned because they love murder and mayhem and have no consciences; there needs to be some kind of conscience to appeal to. They need personal hooks to pull at, people in their lives, and the like. Maybe the terror in the eyes of a child witnessing them at their evil deeds will get to one; maybe another will come to realize what he really wants isn't money and power, but somewhere to belong; and so on and so on. It can be corny, but it doesn't have to be.

Good Evil-aligned characters are way more complicated to play than your typical D&D characters - they need more involved personalities, backstories, and environments that enable some kind of internal conflicts. Evil characters who just out-and-out enjoy being monsters are dull and hard to craft interesting plots for.

Edit:


Read some Plato. Worldly things which Evil seeks - power, money, sex, status - are (by themselves) empty. When you spend too much of your life seeking them and/or when you finally attain them, they isolate you from any real love or friendship, because people fear you and/or are sycophants and/or you are isolated from others because of it. And all of the fruits of Evil will eventually turn to dust. From the highest pontiff and leader to the lowest pauper and mook, we are all united in death (and potentially judgement and the afterlife). Whatever Evil can offer you, it will eventually lead to your unhappiness and ruin. Thus, a reasonable person will seek Good.

This. So much this.

The most important thing for Evil-aligned PCs is motivation; they need something to aim for, some reason they're willing to go so far and do such horrible things. Let them achieve it, then show how empty and pointless it is. Let them enjoy their victories, then turn them to ash in their mouth.

They achieve what they seek, but it wasn't worth the price.

The ambitious and greedy become powerful and wealthy, but everyone fears or hates them, they are obeyed only grudgingly, and the more they exert their power, the more everyone detests them. Money can't get them emotional satisfaction, acceptance, respect, or love.

The mightiest warrior destroys his enemies, but the defeated aren't alone, while the shameless, gloating winner is. Death upon death wears on the soul and achieves nothing.

And at the end of it all, what do they have to look forward to? Endless eternities suffering in some kind of hell, the plaything of powers infinitely more powerful, with no hope of ever rising above it (in all the eternities that have passed, only a miniscule, statistically insignificant fraction of all fiends have risen to real power in their hierarchies).

If your players aren't at least open to this sort of introspection and character-examination, though, it's not likely to work.

Maerok
2010-07-07, 11:28 AM
Read some Plato. Worldly things which Evil seeks - power, money, sex, status - are (by themselves) empty. When you spend too much of your life seeking them and/or when you finally attain them, they isolate you from any real love or friendship, because people fear you and/or are sycophants and/or you are isolated from others because of it. And all of the fruits of Evil will eventually turn to dust. From the highest pontiff and leader to the lowest pauper and mook, we are all united in death (and potentially judgement and the afterlife). Whatever Evil can offer you, it will eventually lead to your unhappiness and ruin. Thus, a reasonable person will seek Good.

I never really liked Plato's arguments about all that. It sounds a lot like ugly people saying 'beauty is on the inside'. :smallbiggrin:

Choco
2010-07-07, 11:29 AM
The Book of Exalted Deeds gives Good some interesting big guns. Maybe toss an Apostle of Peace at them. Maybe after a casting of End to Strife, the party will be forced for a few moments to not fight. Perhaps in the absence of violence as a viable option, they'll be forced to talk... and realize things they might have been using violence to ignore or mask.

Of course, if they repeatedly refuse and stick to their guns, I'd gladly unleash glowing, golden, exalted, righteous pain on their asses, accompanied by a triumphant boys' choir.

Edit: Oh, and take a look at Sanctify the Wicked. It's a good last resort.

The Mercy, Prisoners, and Redemption section on page 28 of Book of Exalted deeds basically has a mechanic where a good character spends time talking to a neutral/evil prisoner. It is diplomacy vs modified Will save, and if the prisoner fails they move 1 step closer to good. Can be repeated as long as the prisoner stays a prisoner (and thus have no choice but to talk to you, or at least listen). So if you got enough time, and/or a high diplomacy score, you could go around turning balors and pit fiends good.

Aroka
2010-07-07, 11:37 AM
I never really liked Plato's arguments about all that. It sounds a lot like ugly people saying 'beauty is on the inside'. :smallbiggrin:

Apt, considering beauty is a shallow and arbitrary social construct...

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 11:57 AM
So if you got enough time, and/or a high diplomacy score, you could go around turning balors and pit fiends good.

Unfortunately, it states specifically that this method does not work on Outsiders with the Evil subtype.

If one of the characters is a Paladin of Tyranny- maybe the DM should homebrew a "Whiteguard" class as a mirror of the Blackguard- which requires you to have friendly contact with a good outsider, and grants you a celestial servant?

PId6
2010-07-07, 11:59 AM
Offer them power and the ability to strike down all their enemies.

Also cake.


If the Heterodynes managed to tempt Lucrezia (admittedly, something appears to have gone horribly wrong at some point afterwards), I'm sure you can.
Considering how that's going, maybe the Solar should just smite them after all?

Frosty
2010-07-07, 12:01 PM
Unfortunately, it states specifically that this method does not work on Outsiders with the Evil subtype.

If one of the characters is a Paladin of Tyranny- maybe the DM should homebrew a "Whiteguard" class as a mirror of the Blackguard- which requires you to have friendly contact with a good outsider, and grants you a celestial servant?
If you wish to tempt evil with it, make sure to not require 2 useless feats as prereqs like Skill Focus (charity work) and Improved Overrun.

jseah
2010-07-07, 12:01 PM
^most of the above:

Once the evil caster hits 17th, it's too late. He gets Mindrape (which is [Evil] btw) and has all the love and friendship and community support that he could want.
It's even real, since moving them back takes the equivalent of Mindrape.

Also, immortality (and perhaps even eternal youth?) is easy.

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 12:05 PM
Maybe we should be looking at reasons for the players to want to play characters moving in the direction of Good?

Munchkin- there is some moderately cheesy stuff in the BoED
Real Roleplayer- playing a character on the way to redemption is challenging.

Any others?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-07, 12:06 PM
Maybe we should be looking at reasons for the players to want to play characters moving in the direction of Good?

Munchkin- there is some moderately cheesy stuff in the BoED
Real Roleplayer- playing a character on the way to redemption is challenging.

Any others?

Your Real Roleplayer example is a subtype of "I want to play a character that has an actual personality". People change :p

2xMachina
2010-07-07, 12:09 PM
Edit: Oh, and take a look at Sanctify the Wicked. It's a good last resort.

Ah, Mindrape solves everything

Choco
2010-07-07, 12:11 PM
Unfortunately, it states specifically that this method does not work on Outsiders with the Evil subtype.

You right, I glossed over that part. Should still work fine on the mentioned party though :smalltongue:

Solar takes them prisoner, has a chat with them every day until they either turn or they escape. Though some players may not like the forced alignment shift, so make sure it would be cool with them first.

Severus
2010-07-07, 12:38 PM
Interestingly, you could try having the party suffer at the hands of an even greater evil. If they are truly hurt, wronged, betrayed, etc., perhaps even by people they thought were allies, that might seed the questioning of the benefits of evil.

This.

The problem of evil is that every friend is a friend of convenience. Their life and after life will be a continuous struggle against greater and greater powers trying to crawl up the power chain, and every step up they take someone else will be still be more powerful, and still dumping on them.

Have their gods or more powerful evils take notice of them and demand they do things that they don't want to do for no pay. They're the minions after all and should just shut up and take it. Mock them if they complain and tell them that if they want fair then they should go find a paladin.

etc. Even the biggest evil around isn't happy, since everybody is gunning for him/her/it and therefore he must always watch his back and try to take out anybody that might be getting close to challenging him. If the party is getting powerful, greater evils may start giving them suicide missions to try to eliminate them.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-07, 12:40 PM
Interestingly, you could try having the party suffer at the hands of an even greater evil. If they are truly hurt, wronged, betrayed, etc., perhaps even by people they thought were allies, that might seed the questioning of the benefits of evil.

Or they might go even deeper into a now-angsting-paranoid evil. Expecting evil people to associate with evil people "because they're evil" is kinda horrible.

unre9istered
2010-07-07, 12:57 PM
Step 1: get evil character to fall in love with good character.
Step 2: show evil character that the good character will always reject them for being evil.

This will have one of 2 results:
a) Evil character repents for the sake of good character.
b) Evil character kills good character for rejection and dedicates their lives to destroying all that is good.

It's not fool proof but it makes for good roleplaying if you can pull it off. Make sure the evil character has some reason not to kill the good character right off though, otherwise this plan won't get far. It helps if the good character is less powerful that the evil one (to avoid jealousy or inferiority problems). It may also help if the good character manages to help the evil character in some way out of the goodness of their heart, probably against something even more evil.

How to work this on a whole party I have no idea.

Delusion
2010-07-07, 01:02 PM
Guilt trip them?

Caphi
2010-07-07, 01:06 PM
Step 1: get evil character to fall in love with good character.
Step 2: show evil character that the good character will always reject them for being evil.

So keep your head up, Billy buddy...

Dairun Cates
2010-07-07, 01:14 PM
Oh, you can get even the comic book villainy guys if you know what you're doing. You'll need:

-Clever thinking
-Audacity
-Patience

Of course, you'll ideally want a lawful evil character for this and want to initially impress them and give the "enemy of my enemy speech". Then it's a matter of just slowly changing things over time. Don't believe it can happen? Play Soul Nomad.

Another_Poet
2010-07-07, 01:21 PM
What has worked many times in real life is to offer amnesty. Evil guys will accept the offer if they have already made their fortune (bandits/pirates), or if they feel their cause is hopeless (rebels/terrorists) or if it seems like their evil leader is about to get taken down hard (minions).

Assuming of course that their evil overlord won't somehow get is revenge on them for leaving.

Parra
2010-07-07, 01:23 PM
All good points so far.

More info on the group and the game so (will update the orginal post too):

The Campagin: Planescape 3.5 Plenty of plane hopping going on.

The Party:
1. Paladin of Tyrranny Ordained Champion of Hextor, Lex.
One of the most forceful personalites in the group and the most organised. He seeks essentially to carve the biggest Empire possible in Hextors name (perferablly over as many dead Heironous followers as possible), with the hope of securing his 'rightful place' at Hextors side.
He is probably the toughest one in the group try to redeem, so he probably wont be who I go after. However if he gets an inkling that someone else in the group is turning against him, I have no doubt he will stike hard against them.

2. Monk of Hextor, Sun Tzu.
Essentially Lex's lap dog, anything Lex does is all good in Sun Tzu's book. Is of the firm belief that every situation can be resolved with the liberal application of fire, though thats most reigned in by Lex. He doesnt seem to have any personal goals beyond 'get more powerful'.
Hard to redeem because of his close partnership with Lex.

3. Cleric of Hextor, Marcus.
If its possible to avoid exerting himself he will, similar to Lex & Sun Tzu he seeks to gain power and become the living embodiment of Hextor. However his extreme lazyness and apathy to doing any actual work (all in character) will probably prevent him from achieving greatness.
I believe that if I caused him to become disillusioned enough with Hextor then he might be swayed, but it would be hard to do consider Lex's zeal.

4. Ping Ping the kobold druid.
In a break from the Hextor theme, Ping Ping worships Tiamat and believes that dragons are the perfect physical embodiments of elemental forces. His goal is simple, sacrifice as many Metallic Dragons to Tiamat as possible. He is using the rest of the group to help get them, which there happy to do becuase of the promise of the dragon horde.
He ultimatly wants to become a true (green) dragon himself.
Oddly this guy is... not quite anti-Hextor, but certainly mistrustful of Lex/ While they agree on many points, Lex's goal of empire building doesnt mesh well with Ping Ping's.
He might be redeemed, but it would be a hard sell and would have to involve dragons somehow.

5. The Assassin, Mist.
Easily the most cloak n dagger party member. Definatly resents Lex's dominance in the group and while he is the groups other most forceful personality he is also one of the least vocal. He is all aboard with Lex's empire building goal, but I know he is looking of leveage to steer the group to his own agenda (not sure what that is yet tbh).
Definatly the voice of reason in the group and tends to curb most of there more excessive plans.
Probably the most open in the group to a old fasion redemption/temptation plot.

6. The Highspeed Meatshield, Amy.
Of the group she is definatly the least evil. Stangely how a typical meatshield she seeks knowledge and wants to learn about everything. Not entirely sure why yet as she is also one of the quieter players but also one of the most easily led.

7. It Go Boom Now? Sorcerer Nezuraty
Unfortuantly a pretty 2D charcter, just goes with the flow of the group. Doesnt cae what they are doing so long as he isn't getting screwed over.
No long term goals that Im aware of. Probably the player i need to work on most to get more involved and in-depth with the game.

The groups in generals goal's:
Long Term: Carve the Biggest Empire possible
Mid Term: Gather a vast army, hire themselves out as mercs until they can move to the long term goal.
Short term: Slave trade. Find as many weakly/undefended towns as they can, capture who they can (slaughtering the rest) and sell the slaves as fodder to Devils (very specfically Devils, given the groups mostly Lawful disposition)thereby ammassing a big enough fortune to support a large army.

Their Enemy:
A solar who is the physical embodiment of The Greater Good (as opposed to a specific God). He led the orginal combined forces of the Heavens against the fiends way back when the multiverse was still young. After they got there rears firmly handed to them he became know as 'The Shame of the Heavens'
His ultimate goal is to bring the combined forces, of the Heavens (kicking and screaming if neccessary) back into the Blood War and defeat the Fiends once and for all and thereby redeem himself in the eyes of his peers.
Part of that involves using a slightly modified Emerald Legion (as found elsewhere on this site) as the main weapon in his crusade. The problem is that they are hidden and locked away on one of Pandamoniums Layers.

Where does the group fit into this?
Well.... they (and there ancestors before them) were selectivly bred by the Solar to act as the final component in creating an Artifact that will allow him to access and control the Emerald Legion. However he only needs 3 of them and they need to be willing (he wont be telling them that ofc). If he needs to use mind control abilities he will, but he would prefer them to be willing.
He has interacted with the group on a number of occasions (though they dont realise he is a solar) and he has sent them off on various missions collecting parts to make said Artifact, with the added bonus that it is 'enriching there souls in preperation for the sacrifice'

If this sounds a little evil for a solar, well your not wrong. But I figure that sometimes in order to achieve a Greater Good its neccessary to do a little evil.
Besides its my game and I say its ok :smallbiggrin:

As an aside, there are 2 other forces seeking to influnce the group. Both Devils and Demons are trying to bring them under thier control, but I have there plans down to a T. Its all interconnected.

Psyx
2010-07-07, 01:30 PM
"But how does the Saint/Angle/BBGG tempt an evil player to joining Team Good?"


Sanctified feats?


Safety. They've made a lot of enemies and live their life looking over their shoulder. Wouldn't it be nice to be able to relax? Come over to Team Good and live in the stunning white marble golden city, sunning yourself by the pool, protected from foes by the proximity of 300 paladins just down the road.

Parra
2010-07-07, 01:31 PM
I quite like Sverus and CockroachTeaParty's ideas.

Given a block of the group are very pro Hextor, if Hextor sent them on a mission with a low chance of success it could really shake them. If Im offering an alternative at about he same time, it might start to cause some cracks, as well as giving the non-Hextors something to work with

PId6
2010-07-07, 01:37 PM
I'd say, go for the kobold, the assassin, and the meatshield. Show the kobold how powerful a metallic dragon can be (aka have his ass handed to him by one), and then offer him the chance to become that type of dragon if he starts serving good.

For the assassin, make sure one of Lex's complex plans backfire bigtime (possibly related to said metallic dragon), and then have the solar offer him the chance to lead his own team of minions for his own agenda, saying that he can lead far better than Lex can.

For the meatshield, offer knowledge from whatever libraries she wants, and tell her how good likes to spread knowledge while evil hides and destroys it. Maybe maneuver Lex into destroying a library or something to get the point across. Also wait until the other two are turned, so they can peer pressure her a bit.

Severus
2010-07-07, 01:37 PM
I quite like Sverus and CockroachTeaParty's ideas.

Given a block of the group are very pro Hextor, if Hextor sent them on a mission with a low chance of success it could really shake them. If Im offering an alternative at about he same time, it might start to cause some cracks, as well as giving the non-Hextors something to work with

Yeah, I think having Hextor step on Lex might be a wake up call to the group. Maybe he decides he likes another champion more this week. Maybe they aren't building the empire fast enough and need to do the impossible RIGHT NOW.

Evil gods shouldn't engender kind feelings in their followers. They should be feared and dreaded. Their worshippers should do things to turn aside their wrath rather than to win their affection.

Heroes don't like playing scared. It isn't typically what people want out of a D&D game. So if you push them with this, they're likely to rebel... and then you have your opening.

my .02 anyway.

Person_Man
2010-07-07, 01:55 PM
I never really liked Plato's arguments about all that. It sounds a lot like ugly people saying 'beauty is on the inside'. :smallbiggrin:

Lets put this directly into a D&D context with a little thought experiment (which borrows directly from Plato again).

Lets say you had a magic ring. Whenever you wear this ring, everyone sees you as the most "beautiful" person on the planet (from their perspective, since standards of beauty vary widely from culture to culture and from person to person). At first, you really enjoy having the ring. You have sex with whoever you want to have sex with as often as you want to have it. Everyone wants to get to know you, just to be seen near you. Everyone compliments and admires you, even on aspects of your intelligence and personality which have nothing to do with your outward beauty. You get elected to any public office you seek. You are given any job or position you apply for. You quickly accumulate vast amounts of wealth through little effort, and can buy or take anything you want. You can do almost anything without consequences.

How long do you think that would make you happy? Would you bother to go out and adventure since you're already rich, famous, and powerful? If you did adventure, would it bring you any joy since your enemies would just join your side or easily be defeated by your numerous allies? Do you think you could have any meaningful long term relationship when everyone on the planet is willing to indulge all of your fantasies? Could you ever trust anyone you spoke to in any fashion, knowing that they only want to speak to you because of the way they think you look? When would you wear the ring, and when would you take it off? How would you deal with the disparity you feel in your life between the "beautiful" you and the "real" one? Would you live in fear that someone may try to take your magic ring from you? Would you try to make yourself happier by helping others with your fame/power/money? Couldn't you do that right now anyway, without the ring?

I think the answers are pretty self evident. A certain amount of beauty/money/power/etc is desirable to buy-off unhappiness. You need to be good looking enough to have friends and attract a partner, have enough money to buy necessities and entertainment, and have enough power to prevent harm from coming to you and the people you love. But beyond that point (which is admittedly different for different people), having more doesn't really add to your happiness, and instead detracts from it.

So Evil is essentially pointless. And that's the most compelling argument for Good.

Lord Vampyre
2010-07-07, 03:12 PM
Alright, if you want to get your party to begin a cycle of redemption, you have to answer these questions for yourself: Why are the players playing evil characters in the first place? What caused their characters fall to evil? Were they ever good?

If the answer to the first question is that the players are playing evil characters for the sake of playing evil, they won't consider redemption. Most people want power for a particular reason. Anakin Skywalker wanted it so he could thwart death and suffering of his loved ones. Except in the process he caused the death and suffering of his loved ones. You have to appeal to the characters and the players. Make sure they have a good background that tells you why their characters are evil.

Evil more than Good needs history, unless they're just playing pyscho or sociopaths. Crazy people are similar to Outsiders, there is no reasoning with them. If the characters have depth you can appeal to their better judgement.

Here is a tactic that I've used before that has had varying degrees of success. First you give them the empire they seek. Second you create a greater evil that they have to defend their empire from. The only place they can look to for help is the Solar. The Solar is willing to help protect the innocent within the empire. In the process of protecting their empire, they forced to go on missions that cause them to commit acts of kindness, such as saving children.

In the end, they defeat the Really BBEG, but they then have to face the Solar. If they have truly repented their ways, the Solar lets them live. If not, they end up in a larger battle with the Solar, who has decided to make them account for their actions.

After the first Act of Good the party commits, have the Paladin's God abandon him. This will make him seek a way to replace that lost power. If he looks to the light, the rest of the party will probably follow along.

Shademan
2010-07-07, 03:27 PM
But personman, that sounds like a ring of charm everyone. Even if you were the most beautiful creature I had ever gazed upon I could stab you if you were annoying

Coidzor
2010-07-07, 03:29 PM
Considering how that's going, maybe the Solar should just smite them after all?

Yeah. Those guys doing that Homebrew Tome series hit the nail on the head when they said that, well, turncoats are inherently distrusted by both sides, even though they're valuable when they do get 'em.

And really, the best recourse is, as ever, a thinuan dagger.

JohnnyCancer
2010-07-07, 03:40 PM
Do something in the vein of It's a Wonderful Life and show them how the world would be better if they were heroes or didn't exist or somesuch. Maybe the Solar introduces them to the being who has the position Lex wants, a bitter shell of an outsider serving at Hextor's side.

Parra
2010-07-07, 03:42 PM
Why are the players playing evil characters in the first place? What caused their characters fall to evil? Were they ever good?

well the players are playing evil characters as a change of pace from playing the good guys in pretty much every other campaign over the last... 15? years. While there has been the occasional evil party member before, never have they done the full evil group.
As characters 3 of them tried to start off as non-evil (tho stil non-good) but very quicky migrated to evil early in the campagin.

Im trying to think of this as the classic fiend tempts the good guy, and while the good guy is sorly tempted (or goes evil for awhile) ultimatly return to being good. Only mirrored.

Ultimalty I would like 1-3 party members secretly on-side with the solar for a while, but once the solars plan starts to blossum that they betray the solar and help there still evil friends

JonestheSpy
2010-07-07, 03:52 PM
Yeah, I think having Hextor step on Lex might be a wake up call to the group. Maybe he decides he likes another champion more this week. Maybe they aren't building the empire fast enough and need to do the impossible RIGHT NOW.

Evil gods shouldn't engender kind feelings in their followers. They should be feared and dreaded. Their worshippers should do things to turn aside their wrath rather than to win their affection.

Heroes don't like playing scared. It isn't typically what people want out of a D&D game. So if you push them with this, they're likely to rebel... and then you have your opening.

my .02 anyway.

Yeah, this sound pretty right. Considering that much of the party is devoted to an evil god, they're not likely to switch sides unless something disrupts their devotion to that god, other than the somewhat stereotypical Revelation of Conscience.

Speaking of the Revelation of Conscience, you might take a page from Dickens and find some way to show them the unfortunate results of their evil path. With all the planes-hopping, a jaunt to the future and back doesn't seem that outlandish.

Oh, and speaking of planes-hopping, perhaps your kobold can meet a race of kobolds dedicated to Bahamut instead of Tiamat and be impressed by their general-kickassedness, not to mention their improved status in a world where other races actually like them instead of regarding kobolds as obnoxious vermin.

Person_Man
2010-07-07, 03:59 PM
But personman, that sounds like a ring of charm everyone. Even if you were the most beautiful creature I had ever gazed upon I could stab you if you were annoying

And then I'd be even more unhappy, thus proving my point! :smallamused: Feel free to replace "beautiful" with rich, popular, powerful, or any similar Evil goal. They're all equally self defeating after you get past a certain point.

Shademan
2010-07-07, 04:01 PM
And then I'd be even more unhappy, thus proving my point! :smallamused: Feel free to replace "beautiful" with rich, popular, powerful, or any similar Evil goal. They're all equally self defeating after you get past a certain point.

And they all end up being stabbed by some guy with to much spare time and supervillain ambitions.

doliest
2010-07-07, 04:03 PM
First, be specific. You need three? Aim for three.

Blast-Mcwizard would be easy. Make him paranoid. Good does NOT mean nice. Have the forces of good do everything in their power to make him think the group is out to get him and they'll protect him.

The assassin? Good builds empires too. Lure him in with promises. Show him that alliances and empires based in Good don't usually try to assassinate their leaders, nor are they as likely to crumble because he takes a nap.

Ping-Ping? Tough, but either swap his idea set somehow, or more likely, get him to feel that the Demons and Devils's loss in the blood war would help Tiamet or grant him his Wish.

Lord Loss
2010-07-07, 04:18 PM
I'd have them be captured by good characters and forced to work with a good team, one of which is a female that a PC will fall in love with. From then on, use the mentioned redemption by love tactic.

AvatarZero
2010-07-07, 04:28 PM
Depends on which version of evil you're playing with. I think there are two main versions. One is: evil is heartless and merciless, happy to slaughter everyone in their way if it serves their interest. The other is: evil is vicious and sadistic, inflicting misery and suffering for it's own sake.

If you're a good guy and you're dealing with a type 2, you're stuck. Nothing can change a person who doesn't want to be changed, short of magic, torture/brainwashing, and really, unrealistically idealistic settings.

Type 1 is more interesting. Evil has the advantage of being able to do whatever they want, all the time. But Good has the advantage of being able to sacrifice itself for others. A blood-soaked warlord might think he's the most powerful warrior ever to live because of his evil, but when he fights a Paladin who will literally keep fighting until his last breath if that's what it takes, and he realises he's not strong enough to do the same, then suddenly the strength of Good is tempting. An overlord who rules with fear probably thinks he's a powerful person, but when that Paladin comes back and rallies people to overthrow him with nothing but a smile and hope, then the same thing might happen to him.

More cynically, there's the fact that in DnD, a psychopath can do exactly what they always do - murder people horribly - but by killing the people everyone wanted him to kill, he gets presents instead of jail time. That's always a good one.

hamishspence
2010-07-07, 04:28 PM
And then I'd be even more unhappy, thus proving my point! :smallamused: Feel free to replace "beautiful" with rich, popular, powerful, or any similar Evil goal. They're all equally self defeating after you get past a certain point.

There was a rather entertaining Brian Jacques short story where the kid (a chronic liar) sells his soul to the devil in return for everyone believing every word he says.

While he likes it at first, he gets bored of it really fast- since getting everything you want without working for it, is ultimately unsatisfying. He does manage to swindle the devil at the last minute though.

Endarire
2010-07-07, 04:43 PM
In a world where there is no absolute authority on morality, I fail to see the point. D&D's morality is mostly based on what common humans (out of character) like and dislike.

Undead: Evil because we want our dead bodies to STAY DEAD.
Assaulting/Lying/Cheating/Stealing/Killing...: We wouldn't want people killing us.

Even if we accept the stereotypical versions of evil, then in D&D, so long as you're faithful to your patron deity, pantheon, or ethos, you're rewarded in the afterlife. You followed that cause because you wanted to and you had great faith that it was real. Otherwise, you would have picked a different cause.

Coidzor
2010-07-07, 04:46 PM
And they all end up being stabbed by some guy with to much spare time and supervillain ambitions.

Who gets stabbed by the next guy on down the line, yeah.

Shademan
2010-07-07, 04:54 PM
Who gets stabbed by the next guy on down the line, yeah.

just another friday night...
anyways! back on topic:
I think the knowledge seeker MIGHT be the only one with a chance for redemption. the rest?...eeeh...unlikely. but at least you must OFFER it

LibraryOgre
2010-07-07, 04:58 PM
I think balistafreak is right in talking about "I'm in it for the evilulz" type of D&D evil characters, but we have a somewhat similar situation in our campaign.

Our enemy is a Deva vampire (4e). He knew my deva Avenger/Paladin in a previous life, and our deva shaman as well. He's working with a raksasha. Each time he visits us, I offer the same thing: He can come back. His trip into evil need not be eternal, but he can come back to the light and be accepted by it. If the character was formerly good, it is likely to be a temptation.

Recently, a friend of mine and I were talking about the abortion of reason, logic and characterization that is the Grand History of the Forgotten Realms book, especially the "Tyr kills Helm" thing at the end. GHotFR comments that this broke the Triad (the three LG deities in the Forgotten Realms), which makes no sense, because the Triad isn't Helm, Tyr, and Ilmater... it is Tyr, God of Justice, TORM, God of Duty, and Ilmater, God of Mercy. That lead me to say:

Lawful Good is based on three pillars: Justice, Duty, and Mercy. Without all three, you cannot have Lawful Good. Too much devotion to Duty, without Mercy or Justice, pushes you towards LN. Too much devotion to Mercy without Justice or Duty pushes you towards NG. Too much Justice without Duty or Mercy pushes you towards true neutrality.

In my opinion, the characteristic far too many people forget in talking about Good is Mercy. Even in the D&D universe, Evil is not absolute and unwavering... the evil can become good. But it MUST be shown Mercy to be allowed to develop into Good. Justice will come. Duty should be adhered to. But without Mercy for the evil... without being willing to stay your hand, to let a threat to YOU survive and repent... Good diminishes into Neutrality.

In some ways, a Solar will be bad at this; until they grow more powerful, this party is unlikely to be a threat to him, and them receiving "mercy" from him won't interpret it as such. "I can squash you like a bug but won't" is what an evil person would say to anyone they viewed as "useful". "You could be a threat to me but I will let you survive to repent" is good... sometimes naive, certainly, but good.

If you want this story to go the way you want it to, the players will need to be on-board. And some of the characters may never redeem. But if the party is out for the evilulz (which is my new favorite word), then you're going to get nowhere with the redemption angle.

Lord Vampyre
2010-07-07, 05:16 PM
Undead: Evil because we want our dead bodies to STAY DEAD.


This one isn't exactly true. Most undead tend to eat living sentient beings. This why they are generally considered evil There are a few neutral undead in 3rd edition, although extremely rare.

Umael
2010-07-07, 05:39 PM
Got to agree with the whole "if the players are in it for the mindless fun of being evil" then you are going to have a hard time of it.

However, it might be possible to get this to work IF you willing to play hardball (and the players are willing to roll with it).

First of all - divide and conquer.

You got Lex and Sun Tzu, but the rest of the group isn't that tight. Marcus isn't too likely to betray Hextor, but if you can get into his head it could come as a complete surprise. Ping Pong and Mist have their agendas which might interfere with Hextor's plans, while Amy and Nezuraty seem to be just along for the ride (although for different reasons).

As DM, you have the right to ask the players questions about their characters that get inside their heads. Why are they "evil", what triggered it, what do they want, and so on. Perhaps Lex wants to be recognized as the most powerful because he dealt with abuse in his life.

For example, let's say that Lex wants the recognition. What happens if Marcus gets the recognition instead?

It is also fair to set things up so that the various plots put the PCs at odds. Give the PC's a plot hook that says that Hextor (or clerics of Hextor) can gain power by sacrificing a dragon in a ritual. A few NPC Hextor followers find out there is a young metallic dragon nearby and plan to subdue the dragon. The fight is expected to be nasty, so they get some help, including the PCs and a very young chromatic dragon. Unfortunately, the fight does not go well and either the dragon escapes, or is killed, or is even rescued. Because the ritual is time-sensitive, the NPCs turn on the chromatic dragon and use it instead (which should piss off Ping Pong).

Don't forget that Evil has some of the same motivators as Good does. Even if she is twisted, psychotic, and untrustworthy, she's still your mother - so are you going to save her when the forces of Good capture her? What about if someone was Evil? Maybe dear Mom IS Evil, but she still cares for the PC. Once they care about her, you've got some leverage.

One more idea - romance with Good.

Someone mentioned the idea of what would happen if they fell in love with someone who was Good. Imagine what would happen if the group came across a Good Crusader who helped save them because she was idealistically naive about who they are (or if she comes to realize, she comes to believe that they can be redeemed).

At first, it will probably be weird - "Doesn't she realize we're the bad guys?" - but she did help save them from the Fleshraker Pack, so that's something. Later they might find it funny - "She doesn't get it! She thinks we're nice and stuff!" Her social clumsiness and naivety while believing in them give the PCs some help from time to time. Maybe they get in trouble with the local law and she has them released after vouching for them. Maybe she gives them access to some key information that helps Hextor's plans (and the plot).

Then she professes her love, or makes it clear that she is in love. Or maybe the group as a whole has come to find her endearing.

That's when it happens.

They hear of a nasty demon or other threat let loose, and that the creature crossed paths with her. The reports say the monster is still out there, leaving a trail of destruction, but there is no word from her. If they don't go looking, having an NPC priest ask them to find her because she had something of plot-worth with her.

When they arrive, they find her. Or what's left of her. Her beautiful face was mauled, and by the expression on it, she was still alive when it happened. The signs show that the monster didn't just defeat and kill her, but tormented her for fun, like a sadistic cat with a mouse. Go into graphic detail if your group can stand it.

For added insult, her soul was stolen by the demon and it carries her soul with it everywhere, a shining bauble for its amusement.

Hopefully the PCs will have vengence in their hearts and are able to track the demon down and destroy it, saving her soul. While she cannot be ressurrected by normal means, her soul thanks the group for freeing her before going on to her eternal reward. If any of the PCs have fallen in love with her, remind them (even have the demon do it) that if they die, they will never see her again.

Play it up.

Word of caution - tread carefully - this one can backfire in more ways than one. But if you pull it off...

Severus
2010-07-07, 05:46 PM
You can do almost anything without consequences.



I guess I'm outting myself as Evil, cause this sounds pretty damn sweet to me :smallsmile:

Seriously, I'm sure I'd grow bored with it, but it would take me quite a while....

Andion Isurand
2010-07-08, 01:13 AM
Evil Overlord List (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilOverlordList)

19. I will not have a daughter. She would be as beautiful as she was evil, but one look at the hero's rugged countenance and she'd betray her own father (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HighHeelFaceTurn).

///////////////////////////////

....My favorite. :smallbiggrin:

Saurus33
2010-07-08, 02:02 AM
It seems odd to me that everyone is assuming that all evil people (and by extension, all evil everything) is much like a normal good person, except damaged in some way. It is entirely possible to be a realistic character and still be irredeemable.

For example; IRL psychopaths. Many of them have the ability to have everyone believe them, much like the child who sold his soul earlier. So far as I know, they don't get tired of it. Generally, they enjoy their power and grow contemptuous of those around them, who they manipulate so easily.

For a mystical example, the various gods (good and evil) in D&D. Ao, who has ultimate actual god powers, hasn't stepped down or committed suicide from boredom, so the idea of not getting bored with power is supported within the setting.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 02:58 AM
Lawful Good is based on three pillars: Justice, Duty, and Mercy. Without all three, you cannot have Lawful Good. Too much devotion to Duty, without Mercy or Justice, pushes you towards LN. Too much devotion to Mercy without Justice or Duty pushes you towards NG. Too much Justice without Duty or Mercy pushes you towards true neutrality.

In my opinion, the characteristic far too many people forget in talking about Good is Mercy. Even in the D&D universe, Evil is not absolute and unwavering... the evil can become good. But it MUST be shown Mercy to be allowed to develop into Good. Justice will come. Duty should be adhered to. But without Mercy for the evil... without being willing to stay your hand, to let a threat to YOU survive and repent... Good diminishes into Neutrality.

I most definitely agree with this- I've seen far too much "being merciless toward the Evil is normal for LG"

And quite a few "mercy to the evil is evil- because it's incompatible with justice" claims- sometimes from Terry Goodkind fans.

Thajocoth
2010-07-08, 03:47 AM
Good cares about others. Evil cares only about itself. (On average)

Evil tempts Good by being nice while offering what they need to help others at a price from themselves.

So Good can tempt evil by being abrasive offering what it needs to help itself in exchange for being Gooder...

Which ultimately means... Good can threaten to smite evil if it doesn't straighten up...

Zen Master
2010-07-08, 04:01 AM
Join Team Good: Just as much power - without the backstabbing. Join today, and gain access to the afterlife paradise of your choice.

The Blood War - is it your idea of a good time? If in doubt, call 555-celestial-recruitment, NOW.

Team White Hats - you don't even have to kill anyone to join. Sign up now!

And so on. I find it much harder to see the hidden lure in evil.

Join Team Evil: We'll screw you over for ever and ever - but give you short term rewards, right now!

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 04:20 AM
Surely if they're plane-hopping it'd be fairly easy to simply point out what the afterlife of an evil individual actully entails. That alone should be enough to redeem most people.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 04:30 AM
It varies a bit. While generally unpleasant, some evil gods make the afterlife for their followers a bit better than that for "run-of-the-mill" evil people of that alignment.

LE people generally go to Baator and are turned into lemures via torment, "death" and resurrection with none of their memories.

However, some of the LE gods that make their homes in Baator, ensure their followers don't meet this fate- transforming them into fiendish versions of their mortal selves. So Kurtulmak's followers become fiendish kobolds, and Sekolah's fiendish sahuagin.

Still- Kurtulmak's realm is massively overcrowded and unpleasant even for kobolds to experience. And Sekolah's followers have to stay near him, following precise rules of where they move- and one false movement and they are eaten by him.

In Pandemonium, Erythnul slaughters everything that strays near him, including his followers.

Zen Master
2010-07-08, 06:38 AM
It varies a bit.

While I agree with the descriptions you give, I still view afterlife for evil people differently.

Basically, whatever happens to you - either becoming a lemure, or a fiendish something or other, or whatever - is the perfect hell for you. And in no way desirable.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 06:47 AM
Depends on the setting. In some "all evil characters go to places of punishment" makes sense, in others, it makes more sense for evil deities to at least try and make the afterlife a bit better for their followers.

In Faerun, those rejected by their deity for their actions (the False) are punished for all eternity- appropriate punishments for their crimes in life- but by Kelemvor (who does use contracted devils to carry out some of these punishments)

Actively opposing the worship of the gods, gets The Wall.

The notion that in core campaigns, the evil afterlives are heavens for the evil characters, rather than hells, doesn't really make much sense in the context of the existing info, though I have seen people claim it.

Samurai Jill
2010-07-08, 07:04 AM
...But how does the Saint/Angle/BBGG tempt an evil player to joining Team Good?
You can't. If you need to be bribed- i.e, tempted- you're missing the point.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 07:08 AM
True- but if the evil characters have a reason to do "good" acts, and to avoid doing evil acts:

(maybe they can't achieve their goal without the help of Good beings who can't be forced to cooperate, and won't do so, without the evil characters behaving themselves)

then it's possible that the characters might enjoy being hailed as the heroes, rather than despised as the villains, if the period of cooperation goes on long enough.

paddyfool
2010-07-08, 08:11 AM
You need to be good looking enough to have friends

Strange basis for friendship...

Overall, this is a tricky one. Movies which I've seen that have had good redemptive arcs typically started with a character that wasn't all that bad to start with, and had them redeemed through either some initial decent impulse on their own part and its consequences (Leon) or the decent acts of others (The Mission). Books may get a little more involved, since they can more easily have the protagonist get repeatedly shafted by the bad side.

If you want to redeem them, try the following:
1) As previously suggested, get various Evil factions to shaft them, especially those that they view to be friends (Hextor).
2) Give the party opportunities to benefit personally from doing good deed X, and if they do it, almost everybody loves them etc.
3) Give the party opportunities to benefit from allying with good faction Y. Say, for instance, one of the slaves is an exalted healer who'd be a very useful healbot for them if they could get him onside somehow...
4) Get people they are attached to to suffer from their actions. Maybe have close family or close friends turn up among the slaves they're shipping. Ensure these people bear copious evidence of suffering. If released... some will be pathetically grateful. Some will be disturbingly keen to get in on the good side of their now "powerful" friend, but will ultimately be untrustworthy allies (see 1). Some will be deeply hurt that someone they trusted, maybe even loved, was involved in this, and beg them to give it up. And some others, of course, will be bitterly resentful.

Samurai Jill
2010-07-08, 08:25 AM
If you want to redeem them, try the following:
1) As previously suggested, get various Evil factions to shaft them, especially those that they view to be friends (Hextor).
2) Give the party opportunities to benefit personally from doing good deed X, and if they do it, almost everybody loves them etc.
3) Give the party opportunities to benefit from allying with good faction Y. Say, for instance, one of the slaves is an exalted healer who'd be a very useful healbot for them if they could get him onside somehow...
4) Get people they are attached to to suffer from their actions. Maybe have close family or close friends turn up among the slaves they're shipping...
All this establishes is that you can be bribed. Or, conceivably, coerced.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 08:33 AM
First step in the process. If the character gets to like doing "good" deeds for the admiration and applause, they may eventually start doing them for their own sake.

A straight jump from Evil to Neutral can't be expected to occur- it's a slow process- Evil- slightly less Evil, even less Evil, until finally the character's personality begins to resemble that of a Neutral character.

dspeyer
2010-07-08, 10:40 AM
Point out that evil empires don't last. Once the emperor weakens or dies, everyone turns on eachother and it's anarchy within a generation. The empire is nearly forgotten. Since D&D tends to have a longer history than reality, it could easily be entirely forgotten. Lead them (without revealing yourself) to the ruins of an empire built by someone just like them. Rub their noses in the pointlessness of it. Remember that empires built on legitimacy and common interest last for centuries.

As for the druid, he's already committed to nature and balance, isn't he? Send him visions of what a world with chromatic dragons unchecked by metallics would look like (i.e. on fire).

LibraryOgre
2010-07-08, 10:48 AM
You can't. If you need to be bribed- i.e, tempted- you're missing the point.

I disagree. Temptation... the thought that following a given line will improve things for you... works fine for good. Bribes and coercion (i.e. "Be Good and we'll give you a million dollars/a good afterlife" or "Be Good or we'll beat you up/torture you for eternity") doesn't instill goodness so much as obedience.

The thing is, the temptation has to serve the purposes of good... which is harder for an evil person to get. The temptation of evil is immediate and evident. "Take the gold. No one will notice, and you'll be rich!" It can even be subtle. "Take the gold. You can use it to help the poor/your dear old mother/finance your crusade against evil."

Good's temptations? Harder to manage. "Give him a gold. It will improve his life." It doesn't carry much advantage for the person doing so, and the more subtle "Give him a gold; he'll be loyal to you" isn't really good... you're still seeking your own advantage, though you are giving one to him, at the same time.

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 11:01 AM
There is one very easy way to get them to turn their back on evil. It simply requires you too... make them do evil.

I don't mean the go pillage that town evil

I mean cut babies out of pregnant women, perform vivisection on victims without proper tools or painkillers, rape little girls and boys, etc.

These acts will be so unspeakably evil that the Players will be disturbed by them. Have someone they are working for, perhaps a high priest of Hextor order them to do these kinds of things repeatedly.

Suddenly, all the characters are going to suddenly discover that evil isn't so glamorous. Additionally, you could throw in the corruption mechanic from Heroes of Horror. The evil they do starts to become so bad that they start having to excise pieces of their own flesh.

Person_Man
2010-07-08, 12:14 PM
A certain amount of beauty/money/power/etc is desirable to buy-off unhappiness. You need to be good looking enough to have friends and attract a partner...


Strange basis for friendship...

Not really a basis. More of a starting point. People who are perceived as attractive have an easier time meeting new people, especially people of the opposite sex. (Studies have shown that they also have an easier time getting jobs, selling any product, or negotiating, but that's another topic). Conversely, people who are perceived as ugly have a harder time. Once you get past the "first impression" factor, then relationships depend on many different factors. And there are certainly many unattractive people with many high quality relationships, and attractive people with no true friends or lovers. But it would be naive to believe that appearance doesn't play an important factor in relationships, especially for young people.

Steward
2010-07-08, 12:41 PM
I mean cut babies out of pregnant women, perform vivisection on victims without proper tools or painkillers, rape little girls and boys, etc.

These acts will be so unspeakably evil that the Players will be disturbed by them. Have someone they are working for, perhaps a high priest of Hextor order them to do these kinds of things repeatedly.

I can think of a couple of problems with this plan. The players might refuse, risking the whole "Railroading" thing come in. Do you really want to be the DM who commands his players to simulate child molestation?

If you're too over the top, they might not be able to take the situation seriously. They might turn into a Belkar-esque character, where the gratuitious violence and depredation is so extravagant that it becomes cartoony and unreal.

And there's always the somewhat disturbing possibility that they might enjoy RPing such a character...

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 01:07 PM
If they enjoy such characters, then the DM has more immediate and important problems then advancing a story.

The railroading thing makes sense insomuch as they serve someone else. Thus while they may refuse to do it, it would put them at odds with their deity which might move convenient into the shafted by some evil faction suggestion of the other players.

Coidzor
2010-07-08, 02:10 PM
I mean cut babies out of pregnant women, perform vivisection on victims without proper tools or painkillers, rape little girls and boys, etc.


Nah. Make and take pregnant women and transform them into a special type of undead with the half-aborted foetus as part of the zombie-like monstrosity, able to leap out like a demented kangaroo's joey.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 02:16 PM
These acts will be so unspeakably evil that the Players will be disturbed by them. Have someone they are working for, perhaps a high priest of Hextor order them to do these kinds of things repeatedly.



I think the nastiest thing I could think of for a villain to do to somebody- was give them a item that grants them regeneration, an ordinary table knife and fork, and use a high-end spell like True Domination from Spell Compendium, to make them start eating themselves.

While avoiding some of the more disturbing things people can do, it is almost as nasty as it gets. If the enemy of the "heroes" is the kind of villain who does this, even pretty villainous characters will be shocked.

Imagine them walking into the Big Bad's throne room, standing by his throne is a bloodstained skeleton with a few organs inside its ribcage, holding a knife and fork. The flesh begins to grow back, until a healthy person is standing there. The villain says "Send him back to his cell, bring him back tomorrow to begin eating again. Day 500 is over, 1000 more to come"

Not pleasant- even if they don't have to witness the eating part.

Parra
2010-07-09, 04:37 AM
If they enjoy such characters, then the DM has more immediate and important problems then advancing a story.

Its not that my players would enjoy doing horrible things, but some of them would be as willing to perform those acts as I would be to describe them.

However this idea has got me thinking; as they do plan on selling the slaves to Devils, I can simply have the devils perform all sorts of nastiness on the slaves in a place where the party can witness. Depending on the depravations I can probably un-nerve the playes a little.

aje8
2010-07-09, 12:52 PM
Don't have time to read the entire thread, so sorry if this was already mentioned.

The way to tempt people to good is the same as to tempt them to evil:
POWER.

A villan offers them power, then a little more and then a little more as he soley turns them to evil

In the same way, the Solar (being a very powerful figure with Wish acess) can offer them power.... but in exchange they have to follow moral rule X. Then, when they're in a bad situation and need a bit more, he offers them a little bit more power but now they have to act ethically in Y situation. This contiues until they're essentially following a mini-Paladin code to keep all their powers.

Make the powers things the players really want or things that could get them out of a given situation. They're all about to die in a collapsing cave? Solar offers them Teleport 1/day as an SLA as long as they agree never to harm children. They need a particular spell to overcome a particular obstacle? Solar offers to teach the caster that spell if he agrees to never harm those who haven't harm him with this spell.

This may seem a little bit tricky and underhanded for good, but I can definitley see the logic that it's for their own good, even if the methods are not entirley pure. Once your forced to wear a mask of good for long enough your face grows to fit it. See Peter from Ender's Game for an example of this.

hamishspence
2010-07-09, 01:44 PM
Given that, according to the OP, this particular Solar is definitely on the sneaky side, I can see this being the way to go.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-07-09, 06:48 PM
While there are a lot of good ideas floating around this thread, there are also several flawed arguments that also will affect the quality of some of these arguments.

Evil will inherently turn on Evil
The issue here is that Evil often works quite well with Evil. Especially in the cases of lawful evil, where they know that constant inner turmoil leads to weakness and will tear an organization apart from the inside. Organizations like these have a clear hierarchy and set of rules, and many Evil leaders can actually inspire honest loyalty and even love in their followers. We have to assume that a church as old and powerful as Hextor's is doing something to encourage cohesiveness and cooperation so it doesn't fall apart every time one of those "more organized and thus superior good churches" goes on a crusade. Which leads me to my next point:
Evil and its products are not sustainable
How has Hextor and his church lasted so long in this case? To use a real life example, let's look old empires based on the subjugation of surrounding nations and slave labor (Persia, Rome, Egypt). And these nations lasted a bit longer than the lives of single rulers, IIRC. While arguably not evil empires, (and most of the people making up these empires wouldn't be considered evil in any case) one nation taking over others by force simply to gain more power and resources (and spending lives to do it) seems to be the very definition of D&D evil. Perhaps the leaders are doing it for an ultimately good cause, but does that make the genocide you committed any less evil? And this leads to the next issue:
Evil is hollow
Again, Evil can do evil for good reasons. Maybe they want to protect those they love. Perhaps they want to make the world a genuinely better place (albeit for the people that are part of their group). Possibly they want to put an utter and irrevocable end to the church of X and all of its followers because of a recent "holy crusade" that tore apart their homeland. Or they simply find appeal in playing god (who needs to worry about a crappy afterlife when you can just go Lich?). With the possible exception of the last one, these are all extraordinarily powerful reasons for someone to be Evil, and not something that can be just swept under the rug because "Good is Good, so why would you want anything else?" Evil has many very similar draws to Good, which leads into my next point:
Evil cares for nothing except itself
As stated above, Evil can care about many things outside of personal power/wealth/status/etc. Loved ones, communities, and religion are all things that Evil people will often make great sacrifices to protect, the only difference is how they go about it. And if you say that the difference is the level of selfishness, I beg to differ. What "Good" nation would not rather completely decimate another nation rather than live in slavery and oppression? It's us or them, and for both Good and Evil, the answer is usually them. Good itself is inherently selfish because 99.9% of the time it is done so the perpetrator can feel righteous, generous, and, well, good. Or it is done to get into the completely awesome afterlife and avoid eternal damnation, but I'll get to that later.
Evil gods care nothing for their followers
While this may be true in many cases and is highly campaign dependent, I personally don't think that this is a very feasible concept. Slaughtering your followers, housing them in some ghetto of an afterlife, or trading them off to Demons for favors, while good for short term goals, is a bad way to run a business. Once word gets out, which seems inevitable in a world with spells such that allow contact with extraplanar beings and even travel to these other realms of existence, these gods are going to lose followers fast. And wouldn't you think that Good would do its best to point these things out to followers of Evil? And once the smear campaign has run its course, it would be pretty easy for the forces of Good to mop up. As this hasn't happened in most campaigns, it seems unlikely that Evil is that stupid.

[/rant]

That being said, I agree with many people that you should pull out Good's ultimate weapon: Guilt.

Then you can use some of my stuff to send 'em back to the side of Evil :smallwink:.

Rising Phoenix
2010-07-09, 07:18 PM
As said earlier if the player does not want to play good, then their character won't turn good. It doesn't matter what you try.

That said, the things I try are:

1) Start describing their evil acts in more horror and sorrow. Mothers weeping their dead children and cursing them, children rising up and yelling at them etc. They are still human and some may have backgrounds involving tragedy. Use them.

2) Have an Angel of Truth visit them. Ensure that they cannot fight it but talk with it. There are as many truths in this world as there creatures, but there's only one real truth. Have it show that to them. For example to the Paladin of Tyrany show him how his empire will be and how it will be after his death (probably broken up/ destroyed) and how it will look like if he chose the good path.

3) For the Kobold, have him witness an awesome battle involving a metallic dragon. Make him see that they too are perfect elemental emodiments. More importantly, however, they treat him with respect, with kindess unlike his chromatic "allies".

4) What other have suggested in this thread. Love can be the most potent 'blade' or 'spell'.

Twilightwyrm
2010-07-12, 03:06 PM
This is an interesting question, to which I believe I might have an answer. The idea would be to essentially take the Buddhist approach (that a person can be brought to greater good by good actions, even if the intent was partially a selfish one, until they see the benefit of taking good actions for good's sake). The strategy you want to employ is essentially the same for the Solar as it would for most any other villain trying to do the opposite, albeit with a group such as this it would call for significantly more subtly. First, you need to recognize that you are going to need to convert the PCs in both an in game and meta game sense. The idea is to get the Solar to set them up in positions where the results of their actions visibly contribute to the greater good, despite their own material gain or selfish intent, and how the people effected are better for the good they've done. Ironically selfishness can be just as much a tool here to "tempt" the characters to good so to speak as it often is to "tempt" someone to evil. Further, you will want them to see several instances in which the incompetence, the mistrust, and, this part is important, unnecessary suffering of evil is exposed, contrasted with the competence, trust, and ultimately, effectiveness the "good" side exhibits. After all, let's face it, evil people are considerably more likely to fight with other evil people, and thus the mistrust and paranoia can easily lead to the sort of incompetence, in this case shown to be the same "weakness" the same evil people claim to wish to rid themselves of. While showing these two things, you can have the PCs "good" actions slowly reap them benefits normally bereft from evil characters, such as the trust, friendship, and most importantly acceptance (on this note, do not have everyone be quick to turn on the characters if/when they find out they are evil. Allow the people the wisdom to see that despite their purportedly evil nature, the fact is that these people aided them in a time of need). Now, unless the actual players of the PCs are evil people themselves, which I doubt they are, these things will hopefully appeal to them, and thus make them more likely to let their character's devotion to evil waver. This let's their characters ultimately become "disillusioned" with any benefits of being evil, making them more likely to take good action because the prospects look better there. Also, on a related note, try to make the source of "good" a less extreme one, such as perhaps worshipers of Ehlonna, or even some good leaning neutral deity such as Obad-Hai. The characters are less likely to be suspicious of the reactions of a group of good natured villagers than they are from the Clergy or Heironeous or Bahamut. If you want more suggestions, I can give them, but this is the general idea.

ArcanistSupreme
2010-07-12, 03:12 PM
Contrary to popular belief, Evil is not totally bereft of trust, friendship, and acceptance. Thus, offering these things may fall flat.