OOTS #733 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Ajadea]

Poor Durkon...all things move at the speed of plot, and looks like he got on the wrong side of it.

[luv2breformed]

I do like how Durkon consistently only acts according to his alignment. Good comic!

[Salty]

Heh, that one was pretty good. I could see one of my players doing that. :smallamused:

[SPoD]

Ha. They didn't wind walk into the city then. :smalltongue:

Yes, they did. It says so in the first panel: Roy thought they could legally Wind Walk into an alleyway, but since he has been arrested for doing exactly that, he apparently could not. He feels that they should have posted signs telling him such was illegal.

[Agi Hammerthief]

thehe

at least he they used the words better than Nale

[Vemynal]

that was win xD, Roy has gotta be so pissed!

[The Giant]

Ha. They didn't wind walk into the city then. :smalltongue:

This is proof that no matter how much dialogue I devote to explaining something that happened off-panel, there will always be someone who misunderstands. *sigh*

They did Wind Walk into an alleyway. Roy is bitching because he got arrested for it, indirectly.

[Ron Miel]

Durkon was technically breaking the law too, being without papers. If he feels that way, why doesn't he surrender himself?

[sihnfahl]

Durkon was technically breaking the law too, being without papers. If he feels that way, why doesn't he surrender himself?
Because he found the legal loophole.


that was win xD, Roy has gotta be so pissed!
Why would he be? It's just about SOP for the OOTS by now.

:roy: I keep hoping it doesn't happen, but it does anyway. Oh well.

[Acero]

sooo. no Durkon breaking into the jail and killing stuff?

[Moklok]

Poor Giant lol.

[Ezlo]

Yay Drukon solo adventure time? Been a while since he's had the spotlight I must say.

[JonestheSpy]

This is proof that no matter how much dialogue I devote to explaining something that happened off-panel, there will always be someone who misunderstands. *sigh*


Damn you, laws of statistics!

Actually, I think that's an excellent argument for not worrying too much about explaining things explicitly - no matter how much trouble one takes, someone will always miss it.

[B.I.T.T.]

Ooops. Perhaps the Cleric class's mathmatical requirements aren't stringent enough.

Good comic.

[Exitus]

I take it Durkon's Intelligence is a bit lower than his Wisdom? Or at least his common sense...is that a separate stat from Wisdom now?

[Defiant]

Had me laughing for a good while there :smallbiggrin:

[jzimbert]

What a hypocrite. Durkon broke the law just as surely as Roy and Belkar. He should turn himself in to the proper authorities.

[sihnfahl]

What a hypocrite. Durkon broke the law just as surely as Roy and Belkar. He should turn himself in to the proper authorities.
And if he found the legal loophole that said he didn't break the law?

[sol-decentguy]

Hang in there Roy hang in there. Wow a whole strip without Belkar talking about killing (there might be others I just don't know them off hand)

-3 stars I would be incarcerated here again
classic

[Geoffron X]

Ah, sending jokes, you will never get old:smallbiggrin:

[Sc00by]

WooHoo! Plot explination! :smallwink:

I think Roy and Belkar will be cooling their heels for some time...

[denthor]

Cute comic now Durkon has to walk to the palace. I wonder who the two that were running late for a family reunion are. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)

Look at the panel before the sign no check accepted.

[zql]

I would totally buy Belkar's guidebook to the jail cells of the world.
And I love to count the words in every usage of the Sending spell, so this comic make my day!


It is me or Roy's right arm looks a little too long in panel 6?

[Thorcrest]

Very Good Comic, as usual.

It will be nice to see more of Durkon in the upcomiing story arc.

[Shale]

This is proof that no matter how much dialogue I devote to explaining something that happened off-panel, there will always be someone who misunderstands. *sigh*


It's my theory that some people just look at the pictures and make up the dialog for themselves.

Edit:


Cute comic now Durkon has to walk to the palace. I wonder who the two that were running late for a family reunion are. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)

Look at the panel before the sign no check accepted.

You do realize that was right before the party fought Nale (Elan's brother) to rescue Julia (Roy's sister), right? The family reunion was a year ago in-comic.

[Engine]

Lawfulness at its best from Durkon.
Lambasting friends and foes alike = bad karma. Poor Roy, I like him so much. But I like when he's so pissed, too.=P

Go Durkon! Keep doing mistakes that fit perfectly in the plotline!:smallbiggrin:

[Hardcore]

Note that now Rich can give Durkon lots of time with Roy and Mister Obnoxious incarcerated. Sort of a variant of how he used Roys death earlier.

[the Riddler]

Belkar's comments are made of awesome.


[Edit: Holy Quackamoly! First page! :smallbiggrin: ]

[rewinn]

And if he found the legal loophole that said he didn't break the law?

:durkon:It be dependin on how the statute be worded.

"You can't *enter* the city without papers"

or

"You can't *be* in the city without papers"

Either way, Durkin *was* in noncompliance with the law, but per the 2nd wording would now *be* in compliance. Lawfuls do not necessarily have to turn themselves in for inadvertant violations, and it may be that EOB doesn't bother chasing down violators who are now in compliance.

[HeseMCMXCI]

What a hypocrite. Durkon broke the law just as surely as Roy and Belkar. He should turn himself in to the proper authorities.

As Celia told us in #282, alignments are things we aim for. Durkon can see that in the circumstances he cannot give himself in, so he breaks the law, after all, getting the papers was a bit of a formality. BUT he thinks he can get roy and belkar out of jail without breaking in so he wouldn't be able to live with his conscience if he did this. Well, at liest it's how I see it :smallbiggrin:

[hamishspence]

I wonder if they'll meet Haley's dad in prison?

Might depend on if Tyrinaria was replaced by the Empire of Blood two years ago, or not.

[rman]

And the fourth wall continues to take a beating.
"Do what I do ...."

[Nilan8888]

This is proof that no matter how much dialogue I devote to explaining something that happened off-panel, there will always be someone who misunderstands. *sigh*

I thought Mauve was being sarcastic. Was I wrong on that?

[derfenrirwolv]

Durkon isn't miko. I'm pretty sure that he realizes that not having papers < destruction of state property + assaulting an officer + assisting a jail break. He'll forgive a little break, but not go THAT far to correct it.

[Iferus]

One week in jail. I say they will wait it out.

[Fargazer]

A week? Isn't that how long the celebration's supposed to laugh?

Is it just me or is Roy acting more and more unlawful lately.

[sihnfahl]

A week? Isn't that how long the celebration's supposed to laugh?
No, it was three days.


Is it just me or is Roy acting more and more unlawful lately.
He's acting lawfully. That doesn't necessarily mean he has to follow the laws of the country he's in.

[dsavereide]

Roy is fundamentally lawful isn't he? But he has no qualms asking Durkon to break them out, presumably by killing guards. Does that mean because EoB is an evil empire, acts of violence are good in his view.. but not to Durkon because of the fact it's the clergy that are the guards? Durkon seems to believe that anyone that serves God is good, regardless of which God it is.

The good news is, Belkar now has a chance to show his jail breaking skills.

[Bongos]

All Durkon has to do to break them out is use is stone shape spell again. Of course knowing Durkon, he'd probably end up using it on the wrong cell by accident.

[derfenrirwolv]

[QUOTE=dsavereide;8869889]Roy is fundamentally lawful isn't he? But he has no qualms asking Durkon to break them out, presumably by killing guards.



I'm pretty sure Roys plans don't involve the guards dying. More like a lightning blast to the wall or something. He's asking DURKON to get them out, NOT Belkar.

Roy isn't particularly lawful. He might barely qualify. Durkon on the other hand is VERY lawful, hence the difference even within the same alignment.




Does that mean because EoB is an evil empire, acts of violence are good in his view.. but not to Durkon because of the fact it's the clergy that are the guards? Durkon seems to believe that any one that serves God is good, regardless of which God it is.

I don't see any evidence of that. Durkon isn't following here because of good or evil he's following because its the law.


The good news is, Belkar now has a chance to show his jail breaking skills

[Faltenin]

I like how Belkars first thoughts are for Mr Scruffy. Awww....

[rewinn]

It's my theory that some people just look at the pictures and make up the dialog for themselves.

Edit:



You do realize that was right before the party fought Nale (Elan's brother) to rescue Julia (Roy's sister), right? The family reunion was a year ago in-comic.

Then there's Roy's reunion with his dad, and Elan's reunion with HIS dad.

So "the TWO of you are running late for a PAIR of family reunions" is truer than I thought!



One week in jail. I say they will wait it out.
:elan:That totally violates the Law of Plot!

Durkon going to th'palace and talking with Elan's dad might be a hoot. Sure, Dad can get the prisoners sprung ... for a price.

[AgentofOdd]

Roy is fundamentally lawful isn't he? But he has no qualms asking Durkon to break them out, presumably by killing guards.Assuming he's careful, a single Stone Shape spell could get them out without any unnecessary damage.

Also, I'm hoping he uses that emergency sending scroll (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) he kept around.

[Inkling]

Heh heh... "Whoopsie!" :smallbiggrin:

[dps]

Told ya that Durkon wouldn't go up against lawful authority and break 'em out.

[factotum]

Then there's Roy's reunion with his dad, and Elan's reunion with HIS dad.

So "the TWO of you are running late for a PAIR of family reunions" is truer than I thought!


For them to be running late the reunions would have to be happening quite soon, so it's far more likely the reunions in question were Roy with Julia and Elan with Nale (considering they met up like that in Cliffport not long after leaving the Oracle).

[Scarlet Knight]

:belkar: 1) "clown" 2) 'fool" 3) "idiot"...

opps, sorry, didn't see the other thread....

[TheBlackShadow]

Tsk. Well done Durkon, NOW how're you going to contact Haley? :smallannoyed:
{Scrubbed}

[pendell]

Damn you, laws of statistics!

Actually, I think that's an excellent argument for not worrying too much about explaining things explicitly - no matter how much trouble one takes, someone will always miss it.

I respectfully disagree. I appreciate the time the Giant takes to explain things to his audience. I occasionally miss things.

I didn't greatly react to this strip, other than being annoyed at Durkon. Still, I'm glad to see a quick update, and I'm glad to see that there wasn't another Cloisterfudge to block sending or whatever for umpteen zillion strips again.

Oh, and I'm ALSO happy that for once , people accepted that this is just a comic. No one read into it some subtle slap at modern politics, or existing countries, or the color of rhododendrons.

Personally, I think that the Giant is making fun of my local Fairfax County Board of Supervisors, who have some very uptight and legalistic people on it. Then I remember that he lives in New Jersey and doesn't know who these people are.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[rewinn]

For them to be running late the reunions would have to be happening quite soon, so it's far more likely the reunions in question were Roy with Julia and Elan with Nale (considering they met up like that in Cliffport not long after leaving the Oracle).
Non sequitur. Remember, the Oracle is the Oracle and looks at time a bit differently from some. More to the point, the sentence is deliciously fully of ambiguity: are they EACH late for a pair of somethings, or is there one pair of somethings for which (the pair) the two of them are, collectively, late?

The Oracle loves to speak the truth in ways that messes with your head!

I have no idea whether this was planned when the Oracle scene was drawn, but what-the-heck. Imagine what the Inklings would have made of a sentence constructed like that!

[Mauve Shirt]

:smallsigh: Jeez, apologies for misreading the comic and commenting before rereading. Next time I'll wait til there are at least 30 pages in the comic thread before posting so I at least don't get called an idiot by the freaking Giant.

[The Recreator]

Hmm… I think Durkon's qualms about busting Roy and Belkar out have less to do with breaking the law and more about resisting the local authority. If one thinks about it, the law is powerless without some method of enforcement, be it the honor system or secret police.

Since Durkon hadn't been caught without his papers yet, he could still bring himself back within the bounds of the law without causing any disruption. However, using Stone Shape or Gaseous Form to free Roy and Belkar would not only be breaking another law, but there would be no way for Durkon to hide the fact that a law had been broken again or to "unbreak" the law otherwise. The trio would then be forced to hide any time any law enforcement showed up… not a good situation to be in if your goal is to approach the local palace and save your friends from a bounty hunter (who themselves are a form of law enforcement, given that this was a bounty placed by the state).

So really, Durkon's just forsaking his buddies in the present to invest in the Order's future.:smallbiggrin:

[CoffeeIncluded]

Ah, that moment of dawning comprehension. :smallbiggrin:

[Mastikator]

Durkon is on a quest to save the metaverse from an epic lich to release a godkilling monster and he's worried about not breaking the laws of some evil empire?

It's times like this when I worry that lawfulness is a mental debilitation.

[denthor]

It's my theory that some people just look at the pictures and make up the dialog for themselves.

Edit:



You do realize that was right before the party fought Nale (Elan's brother) to rescue Julia (Roy's sister), right? The family reunion was a year ago in-comic.


You may be right.

[denthor]

:smallsigh: Jeez, apologies for misreading the comic and commenting before rereading. Next time I'll wait til there are at least 30 pages in the comic thread before posting so I at least don't get called an idiot by the freaking Giant.


there is a bright side to that at least you now know the Giant reads your posts.

[Da'Shain]

Here's hoping that Durkon's time on his own will lead to some development for him. Not that he's boring, but of the Order's members he's definitely the blandest.

[The Pilgrim]

Wasn't V supposed to contact Durkon with a Sending anyway? She should have already prepared by now.

[St Fan]

That's official, Belkar is the king of the last-panel gag. This one really cracked me up.

No, a vital question just occured to me: with this one, that's how many face-palms for Roy since the start of the comic?

[St Fan]

Wasn't V supposed to contact Durkon with a Sending anyway? She should have already prepared by now.

Yes, and possibly (we don't know exactly how long ago it was). I don't like to speculate much on the next strip, but...

... I have the feeling that V's sending will come just next to Durkon's, to keep up with the trend of sending jokes.

[Solara]

That poor fourth wall, they didn't even get a chance to patch it up after the last time. :(

[derfenrirwolv]

Hmmmm... V limited to 25 words, what are the chances that he can memorize it enough times to say "hello" ?

[CarpeGuitarrem]

That was an epic, epic fail. Well-played.

[Joerg]

So Durkon still has no good head for numbers. :smallbiggrin:

It's almost surprising that he could count his words exactly all four times.

[LuPuWei]

I like how explicitly Rich used panel 1 to clear up almost every forum question from the last week.

Also
:belkar: "Would be incarcerated again" FTW!

Hope its not prophetic.

[Wou]

I'm not very good at D&D rules, so maybe someone can clear this up for me:
In previous strip we've seen Durkon breaking his meditation before replenishing all his spells, so could he theoretically rest for, I dunno, 10, 15, 30 minutes and regain just one sending?

[Tobimaro]

Ah, that moment of dawning comprehension. :smallbiggrin:

And all it cost was 4 sending spells. :smallsmile: I just hope that Durkon can learn more than Nale (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html).

[Wardog]

Durkon is on a quest to save the metaverse from an epic lich to release a godkilling monster and he's worried about not breaking the laws of some evil empire?

It's times like this when I worry that lawfulness is a mental debilitation.

Alternatively, as The Recreator suggested, if you have to operate openly within the jurisdiction of an evil empire, its probably a good idea to avoid unnecessary conflicts with the authorities.

[Raging Gene Ray]

:smallsigh: Jeez, apologies for misreading the comic and commenting before rereading. Next time I'll wait til there are at least 30 pages in the comic thread before posting so I at least don't get called an idiot by the freaking Giant.

You mean that post WASN'T sarcasm?

I was just appreciating the irony of the creator of smarmy characters like Roy and Belkar not picking up on sarcasm. Especially since tonguey here => :smalltongue: is a dead giveaway.

[Optimystik]

there is a bright side to that at least you now know the Giant reads your posts.

Aww, aren't you sunny. :smallsmile:


I'm not very good at D&D rules, so maybe someone can clear this up for me:
In previous strip we've seen Durkon breaking his meditation before replenishing all his spells, so could he theoretically rest for, I dunno, 10, 15, 30 minutes and regain just one sending?

Not unless he purposefully left some slots empty.


Recent Casting Limit

As with arcane spells, at the time of preparation any spells cast within the previous 8 hours count against the number of spells that can be prepared.

He needs to wait at least 8 hours before he can re-prepare his slots. Even worse, Durkon appears to prepare spells in the morning, so the Time of Day restriction will apply to him even if he does twiddle his thumbs or immediately sleep for 8 hours.

[JonestheSpy]

I'm not very good at D&D rules, so maybe someone can clear this up for me:
In previous strip we've seen Durkon breaking his meditation before replenishing all his spells, so could he theoretically rest for, I dunno, 10, 15, 30 minutes and regain just one sending?

No, you have to rest for 8 hours, then spend time meditating to load up on spells.

[derfenrirwolv]

No, you have to rest for 8 hours, then spend time meditating to load up on spells.

Nope. Arcane casters have to do that. Clerics just memorize at a set time, but any spells they cast in the previous 8 hours count= (obscure rule, but there)

Time of Day

A divine spellcaster chooses and prepares spells ahead of time, just as a wizard does. However, a divine spellcaster does not require a period of rest to prepare spells. Instead, the character chooses a particular part of the day to pray and receive spells. The time is usually associated with some daily event. If some event prevents a character from praying at the proper time, he must do so as soon as possible. If the character does not stop to pray for spells at the first opportunity, he must wait until the next day to prepare spells.

http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Divine_Spells

[Nilan8888]

I was just appreciating the irony of the creator of smarmy characters like Roy and Belkar not picking up on sarcasm. Especially since tonguey here => is a dead giveaway.

Agreed. Apparently when we think the Giant's finally one step behind, he's really just two steps ahead.

[Seraphem]

i would totally buy Belkar's book......

not that I would need it or anything...:smallwink:


And as to the Durkon breaking the Law debate, while he was inside the city limits without papers he was breaking the law, first thing he did upon realizing this was to stop breaking it, and get papers. Breaking someone out of jail though is something once you do, you can't undo.

[brionl]

Since Vaarsuvius was preparing Sending too, we'll probably be hearing from him pretty soon. He'll probably manage to avoid passing any useful information to Roy too. :)

[Akiasoak]

Well, at least Durkon failed to nearly blind someone this time...........................
:smallannoyed:.........but it's something to build on.

[Secris]

I don't get the "Durkon is a hypocrite" thing when it comes to getting his papers instead of turning himself in. He's not scolding Roy for not having his papers, he's merely saying he won't knowingly break the law to get them out of jail. Turning himself in for not having his papers would be Lawful Stupid when he could instead just stop breaking the law by getting said papers.

Turning yourself in when your accidental lawbreaking has harmed no one and instead taking the steps to cease breaking the law is the smart but still lawful thing to do. I wouldn't even call it a loophole as some have, he's making an effort to obey the laws immediately after finding out his was breaking them.

[Mastikator]

Alternatively, as The Recreator suggested, if you have to operate openly within the jurisdiction of an evil empire, its probably a good idea to avoid unnecessary conflicts with the authorities.

Very true. But it Durkon didn't say that springing them out would only lead to more trouble instead of less, he said they technically DID break the law and they technically SHOULD be in jail for it. His priorities are obviously out of whack.

[Blaznak]

Sigh. Belkar gets the best lines :)

[Francis Davey]

On the question of Durkon's alleged law-breaking, we don't know what the law is, and so we don't know whether he has or has not broken it (let alone whether or not it would be required of a lawful good character to turn themselves in).

To illustrate what I mean, there is a statutory offence in England of "being found drunk in any highway or other public place". What makes it an offence is the being found, merely being drunk is not enough, someone has to find you. I know, its odd (and over a century old), but you could easily imagine a super-bureaucratic state like the EOB making it criminal not to have papers when asked for them but for it not to be criminal not to have them. From what we've seen it sounds like the kind of place that is quite literal about the way it applies its rules.

[Larkspur]

No, a vital question just occured to me: with this one, that's how many face-palms for Roy since the start of the comic?

Is someone counting? There should be a count. Or a drinking game.


you could easily imagine a super-bureaucratic state like the EOB making it criminal not to have papers when asked for them but for it not to be criminal not to have them. From what we've seen it sounds like the kind of place that is quite literal about the way it applies its rules.

Welllll, it's illegal to rent a room to someone without papers, so I suspect it's illegal to not have them, rather than simply to fail to produce them.

Regarding Durkon, there's a big difference between knowingly breaking the law by busting someone out of prison and accidentally breaking the law but fixing the problem as soon as you learn about it. It's the difference between driving with a burnt out brake-light and running a red light- there's nothing hypocritical about his position.

[Random832]

:smallconfused: uh. since when does Sending allow a response... and why haven't we ever seen it used before now? Is this, like a Pathfinder thing?

[Hendel]

I would love to have a copy of Belkar's book of incarceration. "Would be incarcerated again," priceless!

[Kish]

:smallconfused: uh. since when does Sending allow a response...

Since 3.0 edition at the very latest. Check the SRD.

(Don't know about 1ed or 2ed offhand, don't care about 1ed or 2ed.)

and why haven't we ever seen it used before now?

What do you mean? There are a lot of spells that aren't used much in the comic. Nale used Sending. If you mean, why wasn't it used for something more like two-way communication when Nale used Sending on Roy, the answer is: Because Nale, who is in love with the sound of his own voice, only wanted to know that Roy would show up, which Roy told him he would; there weren't 25 words worth of message Nale had any interest in hearing from Roy.


Is this, like a Pathfinder thing?
No. Or, rather, it may, or may not, be in Pathfinder, but it's definitely in 3.xed.

[DabblerWizard]

Belkar's comment about rating jail cells like hotels made me laugh. :smallbiggrin:

Durkon's moral inhibitions will prove to be quite comical, I should hope.

[Hithros]

Whee, after the fact realizations. Well, I haven't seen any trees around, so hopefully Durkon can get there quickly/safely enough...though I kinda doubt that.

[The Vanishing Hitchhiker]

If Belkar's been paying enough attention to Roy's side of the conversation, I've a feeling he's got a better guess about that sigh than he lets on. :smallbiggrin:




No, a vital question just occured to me: with this one, that's how many face-palms for Roy since the start of the comic?
Is someone counting? There should be a count. Or a drinking game.

If this thread's not up by tomorrow, I'll be very disappointed in us all.

[RndmNumGen]

But doesn't Durkon have a scroll of sending prepared for such an emergency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)?

[derfenrirwolv]

But doesn't Durkon have a scroll of sending prepared for such an emergency (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html)?

Quite possibly not. The fiends aren't exactly the most reliable witnesses.

[The Giant]

:smallsigh: Jeez, apologies for misreading the comic and commenting before rereading. Next time I'll wait til there are at least 30 pages in the comic thread before posting so I at least don't get called an idiot by the freaking Giant.

Apologies, it was not my intention to call you an idiot. If you were being sarcastic, then you were in fact poking fun at the very phenomenon that I was also commenting on, so double apologies there.

[The_Weirdo]

On helping Belkar with his task in the last panel:

STEP ASIDE! I'm a translator!

Blockhead, booger, buffo, bugger, clown, cretin, dimwit, dolt, doodle, dupe, dunce, fool, git, idiot, ignoramus, imbecile, jackass, mooncalf, moron, nincompoop, ninny, oaf, schmuck, simpleton, softhead.

Thank you, and good night!

*Leaves. Triumphantly. Carrying a LARGE HAM (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LargeHam).*

[Izual]

This is proof that no matter how much dialogue I devote to explaining something that happened off-panel, there will always be someone who misunderstands. *sigh*

Then don't devote so much dialogue to that. Frankly, it seems that more and more often the comic devotes a lot of time to explain minutiae like whether they windwalked into the city and tedious paperwork. Also, the characters seem more constricted by their alignment and I think the story and the quality of the character development rather suffers from that.

[Bongos]

Originally Posted by Mauve Shirt View Post
Jeez, apologies for misreading the comic and commenting before rereading. Next time I'll wait til there are at least 30 pages in the comic thread before posting so I at least don't get called an idiot by the freaking Giant.


Apologies, it was not my intention to call you an idiot. If you were being sarcastic, then you were in fact poking fun at the very phenomenon that I was also commenting on, so double apologies there.

Awwww, group hug guys!:smallredface:

[ekedolphin]

Belkar almost never fails to crack me up. The lampshade hanging about the number of times he's been incarcerated; his daybook calendar to figure out how in what order he'll serve time between Azure City and the Empire of Blood. (The former, though, has since been occupied and renamed Gobbotopia, so I wonder if that sentence even applies anymore?)

Offhand, I'm trying to think of the number of times Belkar has been incarcerated. In chronological order:

The first time we see him in Start of Darkness.

Tied up and incarcerated with Haley, Elan and V in the Bandit's Camp; and unsuccessfully hung.

Tossed into solitary by Miko upon their arrival in Azure City.

Put back into jail (this time in the anti-magic cell) after his fight with Miko, in Azure City.

...did he really go this long without being imprisoned again? I'm amazed. (Though he was briefly trapped with the cleric when Blind Pete ratted them out)...

And now this. So that makes #5, by my reckoning.

[tomandtish]

Belkar almost never fails to crack me up. The lampshade hanging about the number of times he's been incarcerated; his daybook calendar to figure out how in what order he'll serve time between Azure City and the Empire of Blood. (The former, though, has since been occupied and renamed Gobbotopia, so I wonder if that sentence even applies anymore?)

Offhand, I'm trying to think of the number of times Belkar has been incarcerated. In chronological order:

The first time we see him in Start of Darkness.

Tied up and incarcerated with Haley, Elan and V in the Bandit's Camp; and unsuccessfully hung.

Tossed into solitary by Miko upon their arrival in Azure City.

Put back into jail (this time in the anti-magic cell) after his fight with Miko, in Azure City.

...did he really go this long without being imprisoned again? I'm amazed. (Though he was briefly trapped with the cleric when Blind Pete ratted them out)...

And now this. So that makes #5, by my reckoning.

Origin of PCs, actually.

Love the strip. Durkon would be the perfect cleric “if he only had a better head for numbers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0034.html)”.

[sihnfahl]

(The former, though, has since been occupied and renamed Gobbotopia, so I wonder if that sentence even applies anymore?)
He has a ... different sentence coming up, presumably.

But, yes, it applies. If they succeed before the time on the clock runs out, Roy'll make him serve.

[the_tick_rules]

Belkar would make a nice jail reviewer. Or a security consultant, he knows how to get out of them.

[ekedolphin]

Origin of PCs, actually.

Right, that's what I meant. I have the other book on the brain since I only recently bought it.

[Teddy]

Poor Durkon. He certainly doesn't have a head for numbers.

[Kaytara]

Yay! Some more juicy Lawful Good vs. Lawful Good alignment and personality clashing goodness! :D

Funny, though. I thought being able to come up with x^n synonyms for regular words was more up V's street. :D The elf must be rubbing off on him. XD

[Killer Angel]

Every single sentence by Belkar is pure comedy gold. :smallbiggrin:

[snikrept]

Of course Durkon won't turn himself in.

He's not being hypocritical. His position is not that his party-mates are lawbreakers and deserve to be in prison. His position is that he won't fight the cops and break down the jail, which is a bit more extreme of an action than merely being in town without papers.

Discounting alignment, he's also right. There really *is* a good chance he can get them out without violence, and assaulting the jail would likely bring the whole place down around their ears.

[Elhoim]

Damn you, laws of statistics!

Actually, I think that's an excellent argument for not worrying too much about explaining things explicitly - no matter how much trouble one takes, someone will always miss it.

But there is people who appreciate that, the consistency and details in the history. So because someone can't read we must be left without them?

[Lkctgo]

Durkon's getting smarter. BWAHAHA!

[Cire II]

Amazing strip I laughed at nearly every panel and I love Roy's face in the second last panel.




Blockhead, booger, buffo, bugger, clown, cretin, dimwit, dolt, doodle, dupe, dunce, fool, git, idiot, ignoramus, imbecile, jackass, mooncalf, moron, nincompoop, ninny, oaf, schmuck, simpleton, softhead.



This list is just great by the way I didn't think there where so many synonyms for buffoon but there you go.

[Dalek Kommander]

Roy is fundamentally lawful isn't he? But he has no qualms asking Durkon to break them out, presumably by killing guards.

The only creatures that are "fundamentally" lawful in the D&D universe are extra-planar beings native to lawful-aligned planes.

And the fact that Roy doesn't even think of trying to go through legal channels before asking Durkon to attack a police department shows that Roy's dedication to law isn't even particularly strong by fallible mortal standards.

To be charitable, you could argue that he was allowing his dedication to GOOD override his dedication to law, but no matter how you slice it he just wasn't thinking very lawfully.

[Bongos]

In San Francisco our jail gets 5 stars. Eat that Empire of Blood. Perhaps we can arrange for a visit from Belkar.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/san-francisco-county-jail-1-san-francisco

[cc_kizz]

I'm still amazed at how their conversations were exactly 25 words each! I count them every time.

And more on Durkon. Durkon was breaking the law. When you're breaking the law, do you continue breaking the law to find a cop or do you stop breaking it? Durkon left the city and at that point stopped breaking the law. Technically, however, defacing public property (is that a valid concept here) was probably illegal too, but he couldn't know that for sure. :smallwink:

[brionl]

I'm still amazed at how their conversations were exactly 25 words each! I count them every time.

And more on Durkon. Durkon was breaking the law. When you're breaking the law, do you continue breaking the law to find a cop or do you stop breaking it? Durkon left the city and at that point stopped breaking the law. Technically, however, defacing public property (is that a valid concept here) was probably illegal too, but he couldn't know that for sure. :smallwink:

I'm sure he wouldn't have made a big 'ol hole in the wall unless he was going to use another stone shape to close it up.

As for Durkon "already breaking the law so he might as well bust out Roy & Belkar." (the other guys, not cc_kizz) If you notice that your driver's license has expired and you have broken the law by driving, does that mean you might as well go rob a bank too? No, you go and renew your driver's license.

[Barstro]

Since Vaarsuvius was preparing Sending too, we'll probably be hearing from him pretty soon. He'll probably manage to avoid passing any useful information to Roy too. :)

:vaarsuvius: "Ah, Sir Greenhilt, I have a message to convey to you of such importance that must forbid you to waste time replying to my sendings."

:vaarsuvius: "Please avoid any other distractions at the present time so that you can give my words the unquestionable importance that they rightfully deserve without interference."

:vaarsuvius: "Fortunately, our capture resulted in a most fortunate circumstance and I was fully able to prepare eight sendings today without any unnecessary wasted spell slots."

:vaarsuvius: "Elan, Haley, and I are at the castle of the Empire of Blood. You three need to come here immediately; details in the next sending."

*Oh, for crying out loud!* :roy: "Belkar and I have been arrested for not having the proper paperwork when we entered the city looking for you. We'll be here a week."

:vaarsuvius: "Have no fear. I shall contact Durkon and advise him of your current unfortunate predicament that the halfling undoubtedly inflicted upon you. Just a moment."

:vaarsuvius: "Ah, Durkon, I have an important message to convey to you of such importance that must forbid you to waste time replying to my sendings."

:vaarsuvius: "This is my penultimate sending of the day, so I must keep this especially brief. Sir Greenhilt and Belkar have been arrested and require rescue."

:vaarsuvius: "As I am otherwise detained, it is your onus to free them from incarceration and accompany them to the castle in the Empire of Blood."

[FeanorFireHeart]

I'm sure he wouldn't have made a big 'ol hole in the wall unless he was going to use another stone shape to close it up.

As for Durkon "already breaking the law so he might as well bust out Roy & Belkar." (the other guys, not cc_kizz) If you notice that your driver's license has expired and you have broken the law by driving, does that mean you might as well go rob a bank too? No, you go and renew your driver's license.
yup, pretty much. Miko on the other hand might go turn herslef in but thats because she was taking the lawful good to an extreme. Its like unknowingly going way over the speed limit and realizing it after the fact. do you slow down or do you drive over to the police station and turn yourself in? You just slow down.

[Warren Dew]

Then don't devote so much dialogue to that. Frankly, it seems that more and more often the comic devotes a lot of time to explain minutiae like whether they windwalked into the city and tedious paperwork.

I like the filling in of the detail. Surely taking half a panel to explain it is better than taking an entire strip to show it would have been?


Also, the characters seem more constricted by their alignment and I think the story and the quality of the character development rather suffers from that.

I thought it was a great strip specifically because it illustrated the difference between Durkon's strictly lawful alignment and Roy's borderline neutrality. That's what made it funny.

Of course, perhaps we're missing some influence on Roy from Belkar here, as well.

[Gift Jeraff]

Wasn't V supposed to contact Durkon with a Sending anyway? She should have already prepared by now.

"...my Sending spell to contact Sir Greenhilt." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0726.html)

Of course, V should know better than to prepare more than 1 Sending spell in such a situation (or Blackwing should be wise enough to advise him/her to do so), but still, it's V...The V is for verbose...

[Red XIV]

I thought it was a great strip specifically because it illustrated the difference between Durkon's strictly lawful alignment and Roy's borderline neutrality. That's what made it funny.
Unfortunately it also shows that Durkon seems to place a greater emphasis on the Lawful half of his alignment than the Good part. After all, this is an explicitly Evil government that he wants to go along with, just because it's the law.

[Eohlas]

:vaarsuvius: "Ah, Sir Greenhilt, I have a message to convey to you of such importance that must forbid you to waste time replying to my sendings."

:vaarsuvius: "Please avoid any other distractions at the present time so that you can give my words the unquestionable importance that they rightfully deserve without interference."

:vaarsuvius: "Fortunately, our capture resulted in a most fortunate circumstance and I was fully able to prepare eight sendings today without any unnecessary wasted spell slots."

:vaarsuvius: "Elan, Haley, and I are at the castle of the Empire of Blood. You three need to come here immediately; details in the next sending."

*Oh, for crying out loud!* :roy: "Belkar and I have been arrested for not having the proper paperwork when we entered the city looking for you. We'll be here a week."

:vaarsuvius: "Have no fear. I shall contact Durkon and advise him of your current unfortunate predicament that the halfling undoubtedly inflicted upon you. Just a moment."

:vaarsuvius: "Ah, Durkon, I have an important message to convey to you of such importance that must forbid you to waste time replying to my sendings."

:vaarsuvius: "This is my penultimate sending of the day, so I must keep this especially brief. Sir Greenhilt and Belkar have been arrested and require rescue."

:vaarsuvius: "As I am otherwise detained, it is your onus to free them from incarceration and accompany them to the castle in the Empire of Blood."

This is just pure brilliance. :D I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to this does happen in the next page.

[FeanorFireHeart]

Unfortunately it also shows that Durkon seems to place a greater emphasis on the Lawful half of his alignment than the Good part. After all, this is an explicitly Evil government that he wants to go along with, just because it's the law.

your assuming Durkon knows its a lawful evil kingdom. Regardless its still lawful and he will obey the law of getting papers and not killing cops/guards and break out his buddies from jail.

and on top of that, just because the government/warlord for the empress is lawful evil, the guards or bureaucrats who enforce the laws may be themselves chaotic/lawful good and are just trying to make money to feed their lizardfolk/human families. But its okay for Durkon to come in hammer blazing and kill them all for doing their jobs without a slight bit of evil overtones.

[SoC175]

I wonder who the two that were running late for a family reunion are. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0330.html)
Roy meeting Julia and Elan meeting Nale a few some hundred strips ago

[ApplesauceMage]

I'm still amazed at how their conversations were exactly 25 words each! I count them every time.


Agreed. Very impressive -- they sounded completely natural, yet kept to precisely 25 words. (I made an account a minute ago just to voice my admiration.)

[Trixie]

Durkon is on a quest to save the metaverse from an epic lich to release a godkilling monster and he's worried about not breaking the laws of some evil empire?

It's times like this when I worry that lawfulness is a mental debilitation.

Yeah, how could someone actually follow the law when they could CLEANSE BURN KILL! the whole time? :|

Ah, right, we're talking about someone actually good, not about Xykon or Nale. Next question? :P

...

And a side comment - huh, Durkon actually did something that could be called LG since... I'm not sure, but it has to be a good 200-300 strips. Huh. Though I agree, his scolding of Roy was a hypocrisy of the highest grade.

I begun to forget he is supposed to be LG :smallsmile:

[Mastikator]

It's possible for Durkon to get them out without having to kill anyone. Upholding the laws of and evil empire which may not even last a week is not as important as saving the metaverse.

But yes, since your strawman brought it up; Killing everyone in the EOB would be worth it if it were vital to stop Xykon. It's an infinitesimal sacrifice compared to letting Xykon finish his quest.

[didub]

This is the best one in awhile, Rich! Great job. I love how they use exactly 25 words each time.

On another note, if you can see a person's image when they cast sending, couldn't they pantomime messages for free? (of course not really, just an interesting thought. I'm such a nitpicker)

[NegativeFifteen]

Dungeons and dragons, meet the loophole called sign language.

[xyzchyx]

Dungeons and dragons, meet the loophole called sign language.Nope. The spell description says that the caster can send a short message of 25 words or less. It says nothing about the recipient being able to see the person doing the sending.

[Red XIV]

Yeah, how could someone actually follow the law when they could CLEANSE BURN KILL! the whole time? :|

Ah, right, we're talking about someone actually good, not about Xykon or Nale. Next question? :P

...

And a side comment - huh, Durkon actually did something that could be called LG since... I'm not sure, but it has to be a good 200-300 strips. Huh. Though I agree, his scolding of Roy was a hypocrisy of the highest grade.

I begun to forget he is supposed to be LG :smallsmile:
Putting the fate of all existence on hold to obey the laws of an Evil empire doesn't strike me as Lawful Good. More like Lawful Stupid. Being LG doesn't mean that you ignore being Good when it gets in the way of being Lawful.

[FeanorFireHeart]

As far as we know Roy, Durkon and Belkar dont know its evil! they havnt come into contact with anything resembling evil in the empire yet. Even the whole papers concept can be in a lawful good kingdom.

[Darthteej]

As far as we know Roy, Durkon and Belkar dont know its evil! they havnt come into contact with anything resembling evil in the empire yet. Even the whole papers concept can be in a lawful good kingdom.

They are in the western continent, I think that in-and-of iteself qualifies it for being evil, or at least that's how Roy thinks of it.

[The_Weirdo]

Amazing strip I laughed at nearly every panel and I love Roy's face in the second last panel.



This list is just great by the way I didn't think there where so many synonyms for buffoon but there you go.

Thank you. It was based on a judicious use of Babylon and then a good selection of those that would mean the "kind" of Buffoon Belkar wanted to convey (as in, idiot rather than jester). Plus, well, when it comes to the English language, I'm just that good. ;)

(Brazilian here).

[St Fan]

Thank you. It was based on a judicious use of Babylon and then a good selection of those that would mean the "kind" of Buffoon Belkar wanted to convey (as in, idiot rather than jester). Plus, well, when it comes to the English language, I'm just that good. ;)


Though one of the synonyms is Latin, and a few are French.

But as is said...
"English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark allies, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

[hamishspence]

But yes, since your strawman brought it up; Killing everyone in the EOB would be worth it if it were vital to stop Xykon. It's an infinitesimal sacrifice compared to letting Xykon finish his quest.

This might be the mindset of a Lawful Evil "sacrifice lots of people to save the world" hero (a bit like Ozymandias)- but not Durkon.

[factotum]

Nope. The spell description says that the caster can send a short message of 25 words or less. It says nothing about the recipient being able to see the person doing the sending.

The fact they can in the comic is presumably a short-cut to make it obvious who's sending the message--it would be a bit painful if it had to flash up a DURKON SENDING subtitle every time!

[Barstro]

They are in the western continent, I think that in-and-of iteself qualifies it for being evil, or at least that's how Roy thinks of it.

Spoken like a true Easterner. Why don't you just go back to Fenario?

[Mastikator]

This might be the mindset of a Lawful Evil "sacrifice lots of people to save the world" hero (a bit like Ozymandias)- but not Durkon.

Good thing that in both scenarios a lot of people don't need to be sacrificed. Durkon could very easily save his friends without harming anyone. He's not letting them stay in prison for consequential reasons but for deontological reasons. This is problematic when the fate of the universe hangs in the balance. He's putting the universe at unnecessary risk over a technicality. Am I the only one who can see that he's taking lawful stupid to the next level!?

[Shale]

He's only putting the universe at risk if a jailbreak would end this sidequest any faster. All he has to do is go to the palace and talk to Haley and Elan.

[rman]

Breaking them out could also end up delaying the main mission more than it helps. It would at a minimum place a bounty on their heads and result in pursuit by a number of bounty hunters.

Being hunted by an LE empire for escaping jail could add a complication they don't need.

[Kish]

Good thing that in both scenarios a lot of people don't need to be sacrificed. Durkon could very easily save his friends without harming anyone. He's not letting them stay in prison for consequential reasons but for deontological reasons. This is problematic when the fate of the universe hangs in the balance. He's putting the universe at unnecessary risk over a technicality. Am I the only one who can see that he's taking lawful stupid to the next level!?
You are, unfortunately, not the only person who is assuming that jailbreaking Roy and Belkar is somehow obviously the right thing to do.

You're the only person, to my knowledge, who has yet posted that mass murder to stop Xykon would be a good idea, but you're certainly not the only one who believes that. And you're the only person so far who appears to be offended by the idea that the entire concept of following the law doesn't get obliterated by an end which justifies any means, but I'm sure you're not actually the only one who believes that, either.

[Mastikator]

Durkon could leave the country, designate a sanctuary when preparing Word of recall (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Word_of_Recall), then go back in, say that he know Roy and wishes to speak to him, cast Hold Person on the guards, and teleport Roy and himself out. No harm done. There is absolutely no good reason not to do this. Thwarting Xykon's plans is more important than "not breaking the law", especially when doing so doesn't even cause harm.

Why are you so set on focusing your attention on a scenario which doesn't exist (genocide) when you should be acknowledging that Durkon could do the right thing but chooses to do the lawful thing?

[Shale]

And then they still have to go get Haley, Elan and V, only now all three of them are wanted men. That means combat when they try to find their teammates - even though those teammates have done nothing wrong and could be "broken out" with a good Diplomacy check - persona non grata status in the Empire of Blood and more encounters with Gannij-and-Enor types as long as they're on the Western Continent, likely whenever it would be least convenient. Not to mention that in the time it would take to do all that, especially if he hasn't prepared Wind Walk twice and Word of Recall once today, Durkon could just get this whole thing sorted out.

[Mastikator]

The authorities don't know that Elan, Haley and Varsuvius are the friends of Roy and Durkon (and Belkar). Roy and Durkon can flee the empire, then commune with Haley and Varsuvius via Sending, who can in return explain their situation that Elan has been reunited with his dad, who is a general and can probably pardon Roy and Durkon (or convince/bribe/confuse the empress). Then when this is over and its the next day Elans dad will introduce them to Gigard Drakentooth.

All this without having to wait a week, AND without having to resort to violence. But nooooooo, the law is more important than the friggin universe.

At least Shojo realized that there are more important things than following the law and upholding promises. To bad he's dead.

[hamishspence]

All Durkon has to do is go straight to the palace and talk to Tarquin. Elan can ask Tarquin to pardon Roy & Belkar, or suspend their sentence, and in a whole lot less than a week, Roy & Belkar will be out.

And if they don't offend the Empire by jailbreaking, this might actually benefit them. Tarquin appears to know who Girard is- he might have useful info.

[Mastikator]

Touché.

10 characters.

[rewinn]

The authorities don't know that Elan, Haley and Varsuvius are the friends of Roy and Durkon (and Belkar). Roy and Durkon can flee the empire, then commune with Haley and Varsuvius via Sending, who can in return explain their situation that Elan has been reunited with his dad, who is a general and can probably pardon Roy and Durkon (or convince/bribe/confuse the empress). Then when this is over and its the next day Elans dad will introduce them to Gigard Drakentooth.

All this without having to wait a week, AND without having to resort to violence. But nooooooo, the law is more important than the friggin universe...
:durkon: Who be this gen'ral of which ye speak?

[Mastikator]

:elan: my dad. He has dinosaurs!

[rewinn]

:elan: my dad. He has dinosaurs!
:durkon: Och laddie, I dinna ken yer da has dinosaurs until after I go to the palace. When I have sech knowledge, then I may optimize my actions as desired by the inhabitants of the Discussion Forum.

Na dooobt yer da has tha Tyrannis-saurus?

[Kish]

Why are you so set on focusing your attention on a scenario which doesn't exist (genocide)

Probably for the same reason you chose to bring up said genocide. If you didn't want to debate it, might I suggest that you should have simply said "he doesn't have to kill anyone" instead of making grand statements about the moral viability of killing everyone in the Empire?


when you should be acknowledging that Durkon could do the right thing but chooses to do the lawful thing?
I feel no obligation to acknowledge anything you want me to acknowledge. Durkon disagrees with you about what the right thing to do is. I don't know that what I'd do if I was the one in that situation would agree with either one of you, but if you want to convince me you're right and Durkon's wrong, you need to make a better case than demonstrated willingness to repeat your opinion.

[Darcy]

Given the EOB's fairly effective law enforcement system and military prowess, I get the feeling that a one-man jailbreak attempt would not be ideal. I can understand Roy & Belkar's frustration at being locked up but I have faith in Durkon's methods.

Also, since they're imprisoned for being there illegally, it strikes me that they would want to get them out of there sooner rather than later. No?

[Darcy]

Durkon was technically breaking the law too, being without papers. If he feels that way, why doesn't he surrender himself?

It's a question of practicality. Durkon discovered he was supposed to have papers & didn't, and chose, rather than to hand himself over to custody or to continue to sneak around, to quietly get the legal documents necessary to be able to move freely throughout the city. Being an armoured cleric, and probably not the best at sneaking around and avoiding the fuzz, this is a sensible way to accomplish the tasks ahead of him with the least difficulty.

Breaking Belkar & Roy out of the prison right then & there would probably make it harder, not easier, to track down the rest of the crew- killing all those guards, breaking the cell, running away from and/or killing the other guards who have since discovered the dead guards in the broken-into-jail, etc... he's got things to do.

That said, I wish he could've just said "I've got more urgent things to do than break you guys out of jail at the moment- I'll get you when I can" rather than "well, I'd love t' break ye out with physical force, but o' course that's against th' law, an' I've got a respect fer th' law, bein' a cleric an' all..." Like, we know.

[Kish]

I don't think it has anything to do with being a cleric. It has to do with being Awfully Lawful, being a dwarf, and being Durkon.

[trevon26]

{Scrubbed}

[Beren]

I would suspect that Durkon wouldn't feel that he needed to compromise his values and break his buddies out of jail, even though the fate of the universe is at stake, because he has faith that his god will see him through if he acts according to the values that his god (supposedly) represents. We, as readers, may know that his god is rather careless and doesn't pay too much attention, but Durkon probably figures that he's got it all planned out and under control.

Also, though we don't know what the laws are in the EOB, but I don't think I've ever actually heard of anyone in any country ever getting an additional charge of "not turning themselves in" added to their other crimes. So, I think it'd be more of a matter of conscience (good/evil) than of law (law/chaos), and I doubt Durkon's conscience is bothered horribly that he violated a minor law that he didn't even know about. If he murdered someone, yeah, but for something like this? Meh.

[Boogastreehouse]

Given the EOB's fairly effective law enforcement system and military prowess, I get the feeling that a one-man jailbreak attempt would not be ideal.

They're very high-level characters. If they surprised the authorities, they could probably break out of a jail pretty easily. Once the jailbreak had occurred, of course, the authorities would have time to call in their high-level resources: military champions, powerful wizard trouble-shooters kept on retainer, bounty-hunters; the works.

The actual jailbreak, though, would probably be a piece of cake.


The elf must be rubbing off on him. XD

Sorry, the thread dedicated to those kinds of speculations got locked.

[The_Weirdo]

Though one of the synonyms is Latin, and a few are French.

But as is said...
"English doesn't borrow from other languages. It follows them down dark allies, knocks them over, and goes through their pockets for loose grammar."

Well, yeah, but the fact remains. Plus, let me bask in arrogance for a bit. I love being arrogant. :smalltongue:

(In my culture, arrogance is a bit more acceptable than in yours...)

[Irbis]

It's possible for Durkon to get them out without having to kill anyone. Upholding the laws of and evil empire which may not even last a week is not as important as saving the metaverse.

But yes, since your strawman brought it up; Killing everyone in the EOB would be worth it if it were vital to stop Xykon. It's an infinitesimal sacrifice compared to letting Xykon finish his quest.

There's a word summing up the behavior you propose: Chaotic Evil.

Ok, two words. Doesn't change the point much.