NWN optimization discussion

[taltamir]

I would like to consult some of the experts in this forum about NWN1 char op.
NWN char op is very different than PnP, for one thing, as far as I can tell fighter is the best class, wizard is the worst.

Here are some reasons:
1. MASSIVE XP penalties for each party member, familiars, summons, animal companions, regular companions, etc are all considered summons. A wizard with a summoned animal and familiar will literally get 1/3 the XP of one without.
2. Supreme Monty haul, even major artifacts are often found (which can alter balance btw, especially in the various custom modules people make... in one I got a staff of the magi only usable by wizard... so wizards were the best class). My fighters are using +10 swords of godslaying, amulet of immunity to level/ability drain, poison, disease, rings of regeneration, AC that is off the hook due to various enchanted items (and odd stacking rules), immunity to mind effects, high SR, etc etc.
3. SR affect ALL spells, get hit by a fireball? an SR roll against anyone hit by it, only those who fail SR take damage (after their reflex save of course).
4. Lots of bosses are plain immune to magic for no reason. (also have true sight, and a bunch of other immunities resistances... only way to hurt them is to do enough physical damage to overcome their DR)
5. No flight
6. No utility spells other than knock (worthless, since with one item that does 1 point of any elemental damage you can just bash anything, even as a wizard, with no ill effect).
7. must learn spells only from scrolls, massively increasing costs.
8. No full casting PrCs (then again, even the martial PrCs suck, you are better off with a straight fighter).
9. Almost every module has severe rest limitations. (which doesn't bother fighter, he has an item of regen from fairly early on, just stand around for a minute and you are at full health).
10. no terrain control.
11. hordes and hordes of enemies to fight
12. Forced into small paths you cannot leave and must face monsters head on, no guile, no trickery, no shooting them where they cannot reach you (say, by flying)... just cast at them while they wail on you.
13. combat modes (such as combat casting) take 1 round to take effect when toggled on or off, and automatically turn off whenever you move.
14. Pseudo real time, there is still initiative and turns, but they are more "behind the scenes"... as a result you lose actions if you do anything by go into "attack mode" (hit things with your sword until they die)
15. Items of "x/day magic spell" usable by anyone, every fight is a wizard on the side with those. Items come in all levels (eg: dominate 3/day items not uncommon)
16. ANYTHING can be crit with a weapon... doors, boxes, undead, etc.
17. Spells cannot crit.
18. Bags of holding seriously nerfed.
19. STR determines carry capacity, become burned and move sloooooly, ruins the game... have to drop items, which hurts a lot due to the value of items.
20. Always on haste, true sight, freedom of movement, regeneration, immunity to a variety of spells, harmful effects, and entire schools are plentiful and cheap (ish)
21. plentiful potions of very powerful speals (heal potions, literally; I carry several dozen with every fighter... only it heals ALL damage, not a puny 100HP + 10HP per CL)
EDIT: 22. Magical items cannot be suppressed by dispel, disjunction doesn't exist.

Now, all that isn't to say there aren't some nerfs to fighters either:
1. power attack is a -5 to attack for +5 damage, no "chose how much", no "double damage if using two handed weapons"
2. no reach weapons. (doubles as a benefit since huge monsters don't have reach either)
3. No material component costs for any spells, so stoneskin is now free.
4. Various upgraded spells exist, like greater stoneskin, premonitions (super stoneskin), isaac missile storm (super magic missile; with a twist, it automatically splits the missiles amongst all target in an area, making it best attack spell against single opponents, and useless against grouped oponents)

So... how does one go about optimizing for NWN? My extensive experience thus far has been to make a fighter. Get great cleave ASAP (hordes of monsters, it REALLY helps, from level 1 to level 40).
Both sword and board max AC build and double handed max damage are viable, I prefer double handed with pimped out str. You are doing enough to cut through the defenses of any mage (and disrupt their spells btw), as well as down them in a hit or two. You are decked from head to toe in super buffs, immunities, etc... for what you don't, you can use some of the countless potions you acquire (literally hundreds of potions, on the rare occasion when I need them, i just go through and use one of each type).

For wizards, it is possible to optimize them quite a lot. Never use familiars or summons, and avoid henchmen unless supremely important to plot.
Isaac missile storm spell is a key ingredient, for most mooks you will simply fight as a fighter. Use your daily buffs to overcome your shortcoming (stone skin, flaming weapon (custom nwn spell, +tons of fire damage to melee weapon), mage armor, etc). Although a fighter has access to all of them from X/day items. You aren't as effective with the sword as a fighter, but they are mooks, and you have the same monty haul gear. The bosses just need to be isolated and spammed with highest damage spells you have, such as isaac greater missile storm. (that one has no real defense against, and even enemies that are immune to all other spells tend to be vulnerable to those).

Now, what about other classes you ask?
Well, middling spells (which are meant mostly as buffs) are utterly worthless. Oh look, my paladin 5 can now cast cure minor wounds... too bad he already has boots of always on haste, ring of regeneration, etc. By the time you get them they are already obsolete.
Druids are majorly screwed since animal companions drain massive amounts of XP and are worthless. Shapechange doesn't absorb your magic items / doesn't let you attack with your artifact level sword and is worthless.
Clerics can't persist, but actually are not too bad.
Barbarians lack the stamina of fighters (rage is limited use a day) and don't have nearly as many feats, but they are not bad... a paladin or a barbarian that acts as a fighter can do well for himself...
actually, everyone acts as a fighter.

EDIT: also, enemy AI is stupid and uses spells poorly.

Ok, so, I shared my experiences with NWN... now, prove me wrong :).
Anyone has awesome builds for NWN? find something I am missing? etc.

[Surrealistik]

Palamonkasorc all the way personally (38 sorc/1 paladin/1 monk).

Assuming purely vanilla rules though, Wizard 20/Sorc 20 is the best build in terms of raw power since it has the most win buttons (Bigbies, Timestop, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm) in terms of spell slots.

[taltamir]

Palamonkasorc all the way personally (38 sorc/1 paladin/1 monk).

Assuming purely vanilla rules though, Wizard 20/Sorc 20 is the best build in terms of raw power since it has the most win buttons (Bigbies, Timestop, Isaac's Greater Missile Storm) in terms of spell slots.

1. isaac's greater missile storm requires that you isolate the boss, cast greater spell breach on him first, and you are still doing inferior damage. Worthless against grouped oponents due to automatically splitting the missiles between them (getting inferior damage to fireball when you have 3+ enemies within a 15 or 20 foot RADIUS circle)
2. timestop: worthless in NWN
3. Bigbies: worthless in NWN

None of those are I-win buttons. the fighter in NWN has a better I win, its called "consistent infinite damage"... 5 attacks a round for 30-50 damage per hit.
The wizard has nowhere to run and hide, the fighter closes in fast with his haste, the wizard MUST stand perfectly still to cast spells, meaning the fighter closes in and disrupts the spells. The wizard will not down the fighter with those.

Finally, the wizard and fighter are NOT fighting each other, they are fighting massive hordes of monsters / mooks.

Basically, you are applying PnP logic to a game that is decidedly different then PnP.
In vanilla I had literally millions in the bank, and was immune to almost anything. Elemental damage was reduced (greater ring of the master, elemental resistance 15/- to all elements and +1HP regeneration per round), Isaac missile storm isn't really cast by computer mages, and if it was, while it is the one spell that could hurt me, I am thankfully capable of quaffing heal potions (heals ALL damage) and have enough HP to soak a few of those. Oh, and they need to overcome my SR.

[Cespenar]

I once used a Paladin/Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple build, maxed out strength, used two handed weapons and buffing with sorcerer spells. It had fared well, as far as I remember.

[MickJay]

druid 5/monk 1-2-6/shapeshifter is pretty good, the humanoid forms absorb all items (though you don't get bonuses from monk then), other forms benefit from some of the items and monk bonuses.

fighter/weaponmaster (two-handed sword) is another strong build

monk/fighter/weaponmaster focused on kamas gets up to 10 attacks per round, high crit rate, powerful crits.

Clerics get relatively powerful as well, thanks to buffs, and they're not too bad at dealing damage/crowd control with spells, either.

Red dragon disciple is neither here nor there, he gets some interesting bonuses and powers, but no game breaking effects. Could be used with Paladin or Blackguard with good results.

Certain stealth builds (usually involving at least the first level of shadowdancer) are interesting, but also situational.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Pure monk is pretty nasty in NWN, surprisingly.

Flamestrike is broken in NWN, possibly as good or better than Isaac's Greater Missile Swarm.

Fighter/Weapon Master Greataxe is quite nasty too, but scythe and greatsword might be better. Sadly there's no falchion outside of hack packs (which usually have problems with the weapon master class).

Paladin/Blackguard gets godly saving throws.

[Douglas]

Fighter/Weapon Master Greataxe is quite nasty too, but scythe and greatsword might be better. Sadly there's no falchion outside of hack packs (which usually have problems with the weapon master class).
Just use a scimitar or rapier. The extra half strength bonus to damage isn't all that much, NWN Power Attack isn't better with two-handers, and the extra AC from a shield can be significant and animated shields aren't available. Meanwhile, having a 10-20/x3 crit is incredible, and if you can add Devastating Critical to the mix it becomes ridiculous.

[Timberwolf]

I always did pretty well with a Sorceror / Red Dragon Disciple in NWN1. It was by no means my favourite, just my favourite arcanist. It catered to my idiosyncratic style, basically that you may bounce your spells off the big nasty (like the Maker, he could be very tough) but there was very little that would stand up to repeated whacks with a longsword. The RDD raised your AC, hit dice and everything else to make you useful in a melee. It also meant you didn't burn spells on weak stuff.

I liked Cleric the best, 20 levels of straight Cleric, while not, perhaps, the most exciting, does make you fairly nasty in a fight. Team Cleric (me and the elf) were pretty much unstoppable, with her healing and me packing multiple examples of the nastier offensive spells. "Hello Klauth the Red Dragon" *Harm*, *one swing of the sword* Hello fat stash of loot."

I guess, for Hordes of the Underdark, fun could be had with the PRC, but I rather liked having maxed out spells.

Rogue / Assassin / Shadowdancer is one of my favourites. Unfortunately, it means that no matter how much you try, you can't actually damage the big bad at the end of HoTU. Fortunately, I owned 50 potions of heal and Use Magic Device was one of my best skills.

[taltamir]

Pure monk is pretty nasty in NWN, surprisingly.

It actually is (just as long as you aren't trying to play too "monk-ish" in RP... give him a greatsword of godslaying +10), fast movement gets ridiculously good very soon, they get best SR, can use a weapon effectively. They are no fighters, but they are good...
Most of all, they have the benefit of atrocious AI. I had a discussion like that with a DM after I had just played lots of NWN...

Me: Monks are good because <insert tactics, abilities, etc>
Him: Why would any opponents behave in a way that lets you do that?
Me: well the AI is ... *smack forhead*, duh, the AI... with you controlling opponents this will never work.

BTW, in regards to builds... I am actually looking for char op, that is, most powerful builds possible.
I play wizards, monks, paladins, rangers, rogues, etc in NWN all the time, if you know how to, you can play almost any class. The question is, what is the "most powerful" in:
1. official campaign (super monty haul)
2. Common rules used in custom modules (eg: limited resting, custom items, significantly less items and gold than official campaign).

Actually, let me share some builds:
Human fighter:
STR: 18
Dex: 8
Con: 16
Wis: 8
Int: 12
Cha: 8

max out HP with con, max out STR, human for extra feat and skills and because I really can't associate with half orc.
Int: just enough to get important skills.

equipment:
full plate +5 (8+5AC), if you can, mithral to increase max dex bonus.
Weapon: Greatsword +5 (at least)
Belt: Giant strength +6 (at least. there is +8 and higher); keep spare belts with immunity to fear + death effects, and with SR.
Depending on the gear you find, you might want a belt of agility, which is +dex AND FOM rolled into one.
Bracers: +6 dex (compensates for your poor natural dex)
Amulet: of greater health (Immunity to disease, Immunity to poison, immunity to ability or level drain)
Boots: of haste.
Rings: 1 ring of the master (1/round regen, +all elemental resistances) or regen
Ring of protection +5
Also keep as spare a ring of haste (if you need to swap out gear), and rings of greater resistance to <element>
Helmet: immunity to mind effect (hopefully one with + true sight)
Cloak: freedom of movement

Haste: on boots, cloak, ring, bracers, or wherever you find it (available in all of these).

one of the keys to success is to keep a good amount of "spares" for important things... for example, I like to keep a ring of haste, boots of haste, and cloak of haste. So if I need to swap out a ring slot for 45/- acid reduction for fighting the black dragon, I can still get haste elsewhere.

And potions... potions of everything, especially potions of heal.

Skills:
You can max out 4 (2 from class, 1 from int, 1 from human)
lore (need to identify stuff), persuade if good as CC (you want non ****ty quest resolutions) or intimidate (class) if evil, tumble as CC (+1 to AC for every 5 skill points, plus, tumbling), discipline (resist trip, disarm, etc)

Feats:
level 1: Power attack, cleave, Skill focus (persuade)
level 2: greatcleave
level 3: toughness
level 4: weapon focus
Level 6: Knockdown, weapon specialization
Level 8: improved knockdown (req: int 13, BAB 7)
Level 9: improved critical
level 10: blind fight (lots of concealed / invisible enemies)
level 12: I am not quite sure what to take for those 2 feats, kinda ran out...


suggestions welcome.

Now, it is tempting to get 13 dex to qualify for the whirlwind chain, but considering the way the game works I don't consider that whole chain worthwhile, too many feats invested and you don't get enough back... also, you want to down enemies one by one, not spread out your attacks. And how often do you get surrounded by 5+ enemies (since you are making 5 attacks a round) who are any match and who will not be obliterated via pure DPS and great cleave.

Damage: well, 18str + 5 from levels + 6 (at least) from item puts you at a +9 str mod. times 1.5 for two handed you get at 13 bonus from str, +5 enhancement +a bunch of d6s for elementals +2 from weapon specialization + a bunch from flaming weapons (via item of x/day) and as many other buffs you can get... +base damage of weapon (2d6 from greatsword, averages as 7)
27 physical + a bunch of elemental. everything doubled on a crit, which happens on a 17-20, so 1/5 times.... you attack 5 times a round, and first two at full attack bonus.

Attack: +9 strength +BAB (so, 20 at level 20), +5 (at least) enhancement, +2 weapon focus = 36+ attack bonus.
oh, I forgot the haste bonus to attack... that too... and + a ton of bonuses you get from items of x/day (eg: prayer 1/day, bless 1/day, etc)

you hit a lot, you hit often, and you hit for lots and lots of damage.

[Surrealistik]

1. isaac's greater missile storm requires that you isolate the boss, cast greater spell breach on him first, and you are still doing inferior damage. Worthless against grouped oponents due to automatically splitting the missiles between them (getting inferior damage to fireball when you have 3+ enemies within a 15 or 20 foot RADIUS circle)
2. timestop: worthless in NWN
3. Bigbies: worthless in NWN

None of those are I-win buttons. the fighter in NWN has a better I win, its called "consistent infinite damage"... 5 attacks a round for 30-50 damage per hit.
The wizard has nowhere to run and hide, the fighter closes in fast with his haste, the wizard MUST stand perfectly still to cast spells, meaning the fighter closes in and disrupts the spells. The wizard will not down the fighter with those.

Finally, the wizard and fighter are NOT fighting each other, they are fighting massive hordes of monsters / mooks.

Basically, you are applying PnP logic to a game that is decidedly different then PnP.
In vanilla I had literally millions in the bank, and was immune to almost anything. Elemental damage was reduced (greater ring of the master, elemental resistance 15/- to all elements and +1HP regeneration per round), Isaac missile storm isn't really cast by computer mages, and if it was, while it is the one spell that could hurt me, I am thankfully capable of quaffing heal potions (heals ALL damage) and have enough HP to soak a few of those. Oh, and they need to overcome my SR.

No I am not. I assume you are referring to the original NWN. If so, what I have previously stated are basically the strongest power builds possible.


Haste: Two spells per round.
IGMS: 40d6 magic damage with 20 caster levels. With maximize that's 240 magical (the kind basically nothing resists) damage per casting. With empower that's an average of 210 magical damage per casting.
Haste + IGMS = up to 480 magical damage per round which will always hit and never be resisted.
Each Timestop: 9 seconds or 3 spells during which your opponent can do nothing, and you can do anything, including casting additional timestops or using spell breaches/disjunctions as required. Obviously, this allows you to chain Time Stop durations together with time to spare, allowing you to do up 480 irresistible damage without any interruptions, actions or responses permitted on behalf of your opponent, while setting up the next 9 seconds of happyfuntime. The moment the world thaws from your Time Stop chain, you will be doing thousands upon thousands of magic damage and there is absolutely nothing your opponent can do but weep about the end to come.


Bigbies, Crushing, Forceful and Grasping also often translate into free actions while simultaneously doing damage and having a far longer duration vis a vis with Timestop, but on the flip side are less reliable (some creatures resist/are immune to it as I recall) and only affect a single target.

As long as your opponent isn't immune to/doesn't resist magic damage, IGMS, and you can beat its SR, you will flat out win, because basically nothing in the NWN game or any of its expansions has enough HP to withstand a Timestop chain/IGMS barrage.

Also, a fighter or hell, any build lacking Timestop has essentially no chance against such a character for obvious reasons, if you're concerned about PvP at all.

[taltamir]

No I am not. I assume you are referring to the original NWN. If so, what I have stated are basically the strongest power builds possible.


Haste: Two spells per round.
IGMS: 40d6 magic damage with 20 caster levels. With maximize that's 240 magical (the kind basically nothing resists) damage per casting. With empower that's an average of 210 magical damage per casting.
Haste + IGMS = up to 480 magical damage per round
Each Timestop: 9 seconds or 3 spells during which your opponent can do nothing, and you can do anything, including casting additional timestops. Obviously, this allows you to chaining Time Stop durations together with time to spare, allowing you to do 480 damage without any interruptions, actions or responses permitted on behalf of your opponent, while setting up the next 9 seconds of happyfuntime. The moment the world thaws from your Time Stop chain, you will be doing thousands upon thousands of magic damage.


Bigbies, Crushing, Forceful and Grasping also often translate into free actions while simultaneously doing damage and having a far longer duration vis a vis with Timestop, but on the flip side are less reliable (some creatures resist/are immune to it as I recall) and only affect a single target.

As long as your opponent isn't immune to/doesn't resist magic damage, IGMS, and you can beat its SR, you will flat out win, because basically nothing in the any NWN game has enough HP to withstand a Timestop chain/IGMS barrage.

That is a HUGE "as long as". A well built and equipped fighter 20 might deal only half that damage per round... but nothing is immune to the damage he is dealing (they might have some DR, but he bypasses that). He can also do it all day long, and does not need to isolate the boss...

I know the trick you suggest and it is THE attack I use against bosses, I stated that you should spam missile storms in my first post. However, you:
1. have a limited amount of them per rest period.
2. CAN NOT aim them properly, you chose a LARGE area and they are split equally between everyone in the area... So, if it isn't immune, and you bypass its SR, and there are NO other targets anywhere near it to draw off the damage... then and only then do you obliterate it. And you do, indeed, obliterate with such a combo.
Oh, and you need to start off with greater spell breach to get rid of their magic mantle (it also helps alot against the SR btw)

When you make such a build, are a one trick pony, whose trick is more difficult to get to work. This is the staple arcane caster build though, and I have always used it.
Also, I don't enjoy sucking for the first 10-15 levels of my career before I even get my one trick.

PS. I got plenty of fighters with isaac missile storms via items of X/day (can be used by anyone)

The isaac missile storm thing ruled in that one module where I got the major artifact staff of the magi. cast it all day, then recharge it with dozens of X/day items that cast spells to top it off, keep casting all day. with it you just don't care about spell slots and have as much stamina as you want... Generally speaking though, stamina is a huge deal, and artifacts are typically weapons (usually a longsword, ugh!), that was the one and only time I saw a wizard geared artifact in a module though...

Although in vanilla you DO get to rest at will, every time you rest ALL your buffs disappear and you must manually recast them all, one by one by one... so it is EXTREMELY tedious. instead of playing you:
1. fight one battle
2. rest (breaks immersion too)
3. spend a few minutes minute and countless mouse clicks recasting all your daily buffs
*rinse and repeat.

[Zevox]

3. SR affect ALL spells, get hit by a fireball? an SR roll against anyone hit by it, only those who fail SR take damage (after their reflex save of course).
Er, that's completely normal. Fireballs are supposed to work that way in 3.X D&D. Now, I don't recall if NWN1 failed to include the fact that some spells ignore SR, but that example is a bad one if it did.


4. Lots of bosses are plain immune to magic for no reason. (also have true sight, and a bunch of other immunities resistances... only way to hurt them is to do enough physical damage to overcome their DR)
I do not remember this, and I know I played wizards and sorcerers through NWN on a few occasions. I actually mostly remember having a very easy time as a Sorcerer in Hordes of the Underdark due to all the uber defensive buffs I had that lasted hours upon hours each - nothing could touch me for most of that game.

Zevox

[Surrealistik]

That is a HUGE "as long as". A well built and equipped fighter 20 might deal only half that damage per round... but nothing is immune to the damage he is dealing (they might have some DR, but he bypasses that). He can also do it all day long, and does not need to isolate the boss...

I know the trick you suggest and it is THE attack I use against bosses, I stated that you should spam missile storms in my first post. However, you:
1. have a limited amount of them per rest period.
2. CAN NOT aim them properly, you chose a LARGE area and they are split equally between everyone in the area... So, if it isn't immune, and you bypass its SR, and there are NO other targets anywhere near it to draw off the damage... then and only then do you obliterate it. And you do, indeed, obliterate with such a combo.
Oh, and you need to start off with greater spell breach to get rid of their magic mantle (it also helps alot against the SR btw)

When you make such a build, are a one trick pony, whose trick is more difficult to get to work. This is the staple arcane caster build though, and I have always used it.

It is also vastly more powerful than anything the Fighter brings to the table and completely impossible to stop. Furthermore the Sorc/Wizard build has insane amounts of spell slots, which when supplemented by items, should prove more than enough.

If you want even more staying power though, Flame Arrow has got you covered as a level 3 spell that can do up to 40d6 per cast (though more practically 36d6 since you'll want to multiclass a bit), and since each hit applies separately, it easily chews through mantles.

For crowd control Firebrand is great; 15d6 to everything in a huge area of effect, and it's a level 5 spell. Sunburst: basically blind everything permanently in another ridiculously huge area of effect, pick off at your leisure. Want more? Evard's Black Tentacles with Empower are absolutely abusive since both the number of tentacles and the damage they deal are empowered, and it even ignores SR! The math:

(1d4 + Caster level tentacles (max 20)) * 1.5 = ~34 tentacles. Each deals (1d6 + 4) * 1.5 = ~11 bludgeoning damage. 34 * 11 = 374 average damage in the area of effect, and this can be for up to 20 rounds! If you're small sized, or have bludgeon resistance or DR of 15 or better (10 minimum), you can lure enemies into the area all day and not worry. Just one casting will take care of all the mooks you want, and if you need more, go ahead and spam em.

Then of course there's always Epic Warding + Energy Buffer and Acid Sheath + Death Armour + Elemental Shield which is a safe, SR penetrating way of having your enemies dash themselves to pieces (works on magic immune enemies).




The isaac missile storm thing ruled in that one module where I got the major artifact staff of the magi. cast it all day, then recharge it with dozens of X/day items that cast spells to top it off, keep casting all day. with it you just don't care about spell slots and have as much stamina as you want... Generally speaking though, stamina is a huge deal, and artifacts are typically weapons (usually a longsword, ugh!), that was the one and only time I saw a wizard geared artifact in a module though...

The problem with item casting:

It's not maximized, it's not empowered, and its caster level caps at 15 I believe which means not only does it do 10d6 less damage, but it also is likely to be seriously challenged by enemy spell resistance.

[taltamir]

Er, that's completely normal. Fireballs are supposed to work that way in 3.X D&D. Now, I don't recall if NWN1 failed to include the fact that some spells ignore SR, but that example is a bad one if it did.

oops. odd, I remembered for some reason that it was different, yap, SRD confirms what you said...
a bit of google shows that there are spells that bypass it (mystils acid spells)


I do not remember this, and I know I played wizards and sorcerers through NWN on a few occasions. I actually mostly remember having a very easy time as a Sorcerer in Hordes of the Underdark due to all the uber defensive buffs I had that lasted hours upon hours each - nothing could touch me for most of that game.

Zevox

Hordes of the underdark was epic though... and yes, the AI couldn't touch my wizard either... but the question is whether that is the best build type.. so, was the mage MORE powerful then a fighter playing the same game.


It is also vastly more powerful than anything the Fighter brings to the table and completely impossible to stop. Furthermore the Sorc/Wizard build has insane amounts of spell slots, which when supplemented by items, should prove more than enough.

If you want even more staying power though, Flame Arrow has got you covered as a level 3 spell that can do up to 40d6 per cast (though more practically 36d6 since you'll want to multiclass a bit), and since each hit applies separately, it easily chews through mantles.

For crowd control Firebrand is great; 15d6 to everything in a huge area of effect, and it's a level 5 spell. Sunburst: basically blind everything permanently in another ridiculously huge area of effect, pick off at your leisure. Want more? Evard's Black Tentacles with Empower are absolutely abusive since both the number of tentacles and the damage they deal are empowered, and it even ignores SR! The math:

(1d4 + Caster level tentacles (max 20)) * 1.5 = ~34 tentacles. Each deals (1d6 + 4) * 1.5 = ~11 bludgeoning damage. 34 * 11 = 374 average damage in the area of effect, and this can be for up to 20 rounds! If you're small sized, or have bludgeon resistance or DR of 15 or better (10 minimum), you can lure enemies into the area all day and not worry. Just one casting will take care of all the mooks you want, and if you need more, go ahead and spam em.

Then of course there's always Epic Warding + Energy Buffer and Acid Sheath + Death Armour + Elemental Shield which is a safe, SR penetrating way of having your enemies dash themselves to pieces (works on magic immune enemies).

those are nice spells, but you are still limited by your spell slots. You have to rest often and that means extremely tedious rebuffing (if you are even allowed rest). And you suck for the vast majority of your career... Hordes of the underdark is the only campaign where you get to play epic.
the original NWN campaign as well as shadows of undertide both started you on level 1 and you didn't get to high levels till the very end of the game.
And the officially sanctioned by bioware host of community modules can be found here:
http://nwvault.ign.com/Files/modules/HallOfFame.shtml
These are the hall of fame modules, the ones considered the best of the best. and most are better than the official campaign by a good bit. None that I have played as of yet get you into epic.

So what modules are you playing where you run around as a level 40 character? who doesn't care about having to actually REACH level 40 via countless hours of slaughter and questing?

There are, however, some great mage builds, as well as monk based builds (for SR), as well as shifter and more... all built towards PvP... because there is a strong community of online MMORPG "persistent world" servers&modules for NWN (I played some, didn't stay for long).
But I asked specifically for builds for:
1. official campaigns (that is, original NWN, shadows of undertide, and hordes of underdark)
2. general custom campaigns. (eg: the stuff on hall of fame... typically includes rest limitations)
EDIT: oh yes, and EVERY premium module released (I bought them all). Including the canceled ones (hex coda)

However, if people here want to discuss PvP builds for the MMO servers... fine by me. I will not object and find the whole thing fascinating.


The problem with item casting:

It's not maximized, it's not empowered, and its caster level caps at 15 I believe which means not only does it do 10d6 less damage, but it also is likely to be seriously challenged by enemy spell resistance.
Yes, so for the really tough boss fights I pulled out my maximized greater isaacs missile storms, while the hordes of other creatures just got blasted into oblivion by not as maxed out castings from the staff.

[Surrealistik]

those are nice spells, but you are still limited by your spell slots. You have to rest often and that means extremely tedious rebuffing (if you are even allowed rest). And you suck for the vast majority of your career... Hordes of the underdark is the only campaign where you get to play epic.
the original NWN campaign as well as shadows of undertide both started you on level 1 and you didn't get to high levels till the very end of the game.

Trust me, between buffed summons and Empowered Evards (which you get access to well before epic levels) lasting many rounds and being able to quickly paralyze and gib even relatively powerful enemies with ease, spell slot counts generally won't be a problem.

I will admit, arcanists aren't that great at the lower levels, but the moment you start getting decent summons (3rd level spells for the Dire Wolf/Skeletal Chieftan)? They begin to overtake the fighters.


So what modules are you playing where you run around as a level 40 character? who doesn't care about having to actually REACH level 40 via countless hours of slaughter and questing?


Hitting L20-30 is enough to gain access to the best goodies with solitary exception of Epic Warding I believe. Some are accessible even before then (Empowered Evards).


There are, however, some great mage builds, as well as monk based builds (for SR), as well as shifter and more... all built towards PvP... because there is a strong community of online MMORPG "persistent world" servers&modules for NWN (I played some, didn't stay for long).
But I asked specifically for builds for:
1. official campaigns (that is, original NWN, shadows of undertide, and hordes of underdark)
2. general custom campaigns. (eg: the stuff on hall of fame... typically includes rest limitations)

The Palamonkasorc and Sorc/Wizard build are basically the best things going for any epic level campaign. As for lower powered ones, barring the least powered, they're still extremely solid though I'm not sure if they're the true, de facto optimal.


Yes, so for the really tough boss fights I pulled out my maximized greater isaacs missile storms, while the hordes of other creatures just got blasted into oblivion by not as maxed out castings from the staff.

Sure, it's a great mook killer, but it ain't no original recipe casting. Just sayin'.

[taltamir]

Trust me, between buffed summons and Empowered Evards (which you get access to well before epic levels) lasting many rounds and being able to quickly paralyze and gib even relatively powerful enemies with ease, spell slot counts generally won't be a problem.

Never, EVER EVER! user summons. Summons are a HUGE XP drain. Modules that are play tested as ending at level 11? I get to level 19 at the end just by not using summons or henchies.
And wizard 19 is better than wizard 11, level 10 henchmen with crap AI, and the singular summon the wizard can concurrently have. (and control over said summons is crap)... trust me, you don't want to do it.
You are better off buffing yourself to invulnerability to enemies.


Most if not virtually all of the hall of fame builds are actually considered jokes by the hardcore NWN powerbuilders (yes they exist, there are arena/pvp servers and of course munchkinism creeps into even the RP servers), either being inferior instances of truly optimal builds (think the palamonkasorc necromancer is one such instance) or suboptimal builds period.

Reread what I said, I did NOT say hall of fame CHARACTERS, I said hall of fame MODULES. That is, the actual game thing your character is supposed to play in.


Hitting L20-30 is enough to gain access to the best goodies with solitary exception of Epic Warding I believe. Some are accessible even before then (Empowered Evards).
Only two modules ever got me to L20-30:
1. Hordes of the underdark
2. Sex and the single adventure (a satirical NC17 module where you START as epic level)


Sure, it's a great mook killer, but it ain't no original recipe casting. Just sayin'.
It made the wizard viable because I used it to slaughter Aleph mooks a day, while using my OWN spells only on boss fights. I LOVE wizards, I want to play one in every game due to RP reasons (and if not, then druids or clerics, and if not, then paladin and monks, and maybe barbarians), I am just extremely dissatisfied at how much more effective classes. I am left with a stormwind choice... do I "roleplay" a wizard... or do I play a fighter to not suck.

[Surrealistik]

Never, EVER EVER! user summons. Summons are a HUGE XP drain. Modules that are play tested as ending at level 11? I get to level 19 at the end just by not using summons or henchies.
And wizard 19 is better than wizard 11, level 10 henchmen with crap AI, and the singular summon the wizard can concurrently have. (and control over said summons is crap)... trust me, you don't want to do it.
You are better off buffing yourself to invulnerability to enemies.

Ah yes, that's right. Still, self buffs + persistent AoEs like Firewall and Evard will see you through easily without requiring too much resting.


Reread what I said, I did NOT say hall of fame CHARACTERS, I said hall of fame MODULES. That is, the actual game thing your character is supposed to play in.

Oops, misread that. Anyways, like I said, self buffs + persistent AoEs makes for a powerful, and restless caster build that works very well at lower levels.

[taltamir]

do you mean spamming AoE?

Persist is only available in NWN2, not NWN1.

EDIT: or maybe, do you mean AoE with duration; that do damage for many rounds?
cause it is indeed hilariously fun to drop multiple of those on a group... but not many compare to the DPS of a well built fighter.

I would totally concede that your build would work great in PvP online modules. Much better than pure fighter... especially because those tend to be extremely low on items, with custom items too to be more like PnP (eg, boots of haste are 10 rounds a day, not always on, and cost a lot more).

But what exactly is your sorc doing from level 1 through 10? heck, what about 10 through 15?

PS. found an interesting thread when I googled gem of true sight NWN (I always have several of those on my person, they are cheap and small; can be used by a fighter) http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=630754&forum=42

[Surrealistik]

do you mean spamming AoE?

Persist is only available in NWN2, not NWN1.

EDIT: or maybe, do you mean AoE with duration; that do damage for many rounds?
cause it is indeed hilariously fun to drop multiple of those on a group... but not many compare to the DPS of a well built fighter.

Yes. Firewall, darkness, cloud of bewilderment and the like. While not all of these will deal damage, some are essentially win buttons (darkness, and high DC bewilderment for example), allowing you to use your buffed weapon to whack an opponent to death at your leisure.


But what exactly is your sorc doing from level 1 through 10? heck, what about 10 through 15?

As above. It's surprisingly effective.


PS. found an interesting thread when I googled gem of true sight NWN (I always have several of those on my person, they are cheap and small; can be used by a fighter) http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic.html?topic=630754&forum=42

Not sure if the findings in that thread remain applicable as of patch 1.69.

[taltamir]

Yes. Firewall, darkness, cloud of bewilderment and the like. While not all of these will deal damage, some are essentially win buttons (darkness, and high DC bewilderment for example), allowing you to use your buffed weapon to whack an opponent to death at your leisure.

a fighter can whack opponents to death at his leisure without these. and doesn't have to worry about enemies being immune, or running out (at low levels you have very few spell slots). I didn't say casters can't kill monsters, I said fighters do it better (easier / safer / quicker).

[Khosan]

I was always a fan of Fighter 4/Rogue X/Shadowdancer 1 builds. Hide in Plain Sight was kind of overpowered, especially once you pumped your Hide/Move Silently high enough.

Sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, hide, and so on and so forth.

It's not terribly effective at low levels (before you get HiPS really), but it's pretty simple after that.

[dresdor]

I always played fighters or clerics...but a fighter with cleric henchman (in campaign) or fighter with plenty of potions (multiplayer) worked out the best.

[Trazoi]

I was always a fan of Fighter 4/Rogue X/Shadowdancer 1 builds. Hide in Plain Sight was kind of overpowered, especially once you pumped your Hide/Move Silently high enough.

Sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, hide, and so on and so forth.

It's not terribly effective at low levels (before you get HiPS really), but it's pretty simple after that.
That was one of my favourites too. Rogues have the advantage that your character can deal directly with all the traps. And while humans might be technically stronger, the build works well with halflings too. Or elves if you substitute Champion of Torm for Fighter, then you don't have to bother actively searching for traps.

[Surrealistik]

a fighter can whack opponents to death at his leisure without these. and doesn't have to worry about enemies being immune, or running out (at low levels you have very few spell slots). I didn't say casters can't kill monsters, I said fighters do it better (easier / safer / quicker).

I completely disagree because of recurring AoE save or suck. Basically, you get multiple chances to instantly win the encounter, and it works versus masses of mobs. Then there are buffs like greater stone skin and premonition that make you basically invulnerable, and are fairly long-lasting.

Immunities only begin to really become an issue later on when you gain access to the truly powerful spells, whereupon they are no longer a problem.

I'm not sure if arcanists are 'the best' for PvM at low levels (I'd say the cleric probably is), but they can sure beat out basic fighters when played properly.

[Khosan]

That was one of my favourites too. Rogues have the advantage that your character can deal directly with all the traps. And while humans might be technically stronger, the build works well with halflings too. Or elves if you substitute Champion of Torm for Fighter, then you don't have to bother actively searching for traps.

The most difficult fight I remember was the Dracolich in HoU, I think. A big part of that was probably that it had some Spot/Search checks that just rocked everything else I'd encountered up until that point.

EDIT: Though immunity to sneak attacks probably didn't help either. I may or may not have had a similar problem with the Maker.

Anything with immunity to sneak attacks/critical hits I could handle, but then you toss in the whole 'I can see you' bit and it goes from 'This is going to take a while' to 'Jesus, where are my potions'.

[taltamir]

Reread what I said, I did NOT say hall of fame CHARACTERS, I said hall of fame MODULES. That is, the actual game thing your character is supposed to play in.

First, I would like to apologize that the above sounds terribly condescending of me. I honestly don't recall if that was my intent when I posted it, but that is what it sounds like, so maybe I was (at least subconsciously), it was rude and I apologize (and no, this isn't in response to anyone pointing it out to me in PM :P)

Anyways, I decided to actually do a playthrough with the fighter build I suggested above. I started a SoU campaign with it, and my intent is to then move it to HoTU and play it as well. Goal is to go from fighter 1 to 40.
I just finished chapter 1 and went to interlude in SoU. What I can say thus far:
1. SoU has fairly small supply of magic items, and they are not very powerful. Oh, there are powerful magics, to be certain... but I am still only with +1 gloves (I do have some really neat items elsewhere though, but mostly fairly tame)... ended with 12k GP.
So this is very different than the first official campaign of NWN.
2. I really really want to get deekin as a henchman, he is awesome and it breaks my heart to tell him no (because he isn't worth the XP penalty :P)
3. Every combat encounter is a breeze, I rested 6 times, and only because I Was too cheap to use potions. Combats that were extremely difficult as any other class are supremely easy as a fighter. It is a downright massacre, I literally down entire rooms in a round (5-10 enemies converge, great cleave kicks in, everyone dies). J'ana went down in two hits, the dragon was a joke, his minions were easy... I remember running away from the bulls and having to trick their AI to lose them and rest (multiple times) as a caster. as well as quaffing a lot of potions... as fighter I just slaughtered them (I had to use a potion of cure moderate, the ONLY potion I had to use in battle in the entire playthrough).
4. high strength meant lots of carry capacity so that was also a breeze.

anyways, combat is a breeze, gameplay is better (no resting and rebuffing every minute, no slowness from overburden and running to town every 5 minutes; I literally ran out of room in the inventory before running out of carry capacity once)

I will keep you updated on what goes on further... also, still hoping for suggestions for level 13+ feats.

[MickJay]

For high damage output (which is all it comes down to, really - if you kill it quick enough, it can't hurt you), go with a weaponmaster build with a greatsword. Sure, you don't start with very high strength due to dex and int requirements, and if you want to sneak in a level of paladin in there somewhere it gets even more complicated, but in return you get a character that, by level 16, deals on average 40-70+ damage per attack, and once you boost strength enough with epic feats, you can pick the two feats that autokill opponents on critical hits (which you'd be doing half of the time by then). Add great cleave on the way and knockdowns and there are very, very few things that could cause you problems if you pick items granting immunities. Beside the choice of feats and stats, it's also a very easy class to play - you just go up to things and beat them up (without much difficulty), without having to worry about choice of spells, frequent resting, encumbrance and so forth.

Dracolich is trivial if you're playing a cleric - Heal, smack, wait until it respawns, heal, smack...

Ninja'd by op! :smallbiggrin:

pure fighter is good, but by the time you finish WM prestige class, fighter falls far behind with pure damage output. The only real downside of WM is that you need almost all of your feats to qualify for it put into a relatively ineffective Whirlwind, and it takes a lot of time afterwards to get PA, cleaves and knockdowns. I usually go with luck of heroes, weapon focus, dodge, mobility, spring attack, expertise, weapon specialization and whirlwind by level 6, and go for WM at 7. After finishing the PrC at 16, you can pick the other feats and continue with pure fighter for the remaining 24 levels. For early levels, You can also skip luck of heroes and early specialization and pick power attack and cleave.

[Flickerdart]

The problem with Weapon Master is that as soon as something is immune to critical hits, you're dead in the water, essentially losing out on 10 character levels' worth of class features.

[taltamir]

@MickJay, I am curious, how does a level of paladin help the damage output (paladin provides nice immunities and persuade as a class skill, but I don't see it helping damage)

@Flickerdart, an important observation

@MickJay, if you are going weaponmaster, why not scythe for the 4x on crit, or scimitar for the extra crit range?

I made some errors in my original post:
1. I said everything is critable, well, you can crit objects, and crit a lot of monsters that are immune to crit in PnP... however, there is an "immune to crits" ability... its just not applied to enough things.

2. I said SR applies to all spells, even fireball. I was wrong on two counts. A. Fireball should be affected by SR by RAW PNP, B. some spells are not affected by SR, such as mystil acid spells ignore SR (According to random posts found by googling).

There were, of course, omissions as well. Such as "you heal 100% of your HP every time you rest", etc. anyways, just wanted to clear the air.

[MickJay]

@paladin, not for damage, but for those immunities, to patch up the low saves a little

greatsword has both high damage and standard crit range - scythe crits only on 20s, so the maximum range is 17-20, while greatsword's is 15-20. True, scimitars or rapiers (or kukris) can get you 13-20, but the base damage is much lower, and you become almost useless against opponents with critical immunity. Basically, greatsword is the most balanced/universal weapon.

@flickerdart you're still left with ki damage and an extra +1 to attack (which, admittedly, is next to nothing). Yes, you lose a few feats that a fighter would gain, but you can pick them on later levels anyway, and you are almost twice as effective at eliminating everything that isn't immune to critical damage.

[taltamir]

@paladin, not for damage, but for those immunities, to patch up the low saves a little

greatsword has both high damage and standard crit range - scythe crits only on 20s, so the maximum range is 17-20, while greatsword's is 15-20. True, scimitars or rapiers (or kukris) can get you 13-20, but the base damage is much lower, and you become almost useless against opponents with critical immunity. Basically, greatsword is the most balanced/universal weapon.

All good points, although the average base damage isn't that much lower. it goes from 7 for greatsword to 4.5... but if you include the str multiplier then you are right. I confused NWN1 and 2, in NWN1 if you wield a one handed weapon and leave the other hand "free" it will NOT wield said weapon with two hands for 1.5x str to damage. So you lose additional points to damage there, which compound to the base damage loss to be quite severe loss of damage overall.

[Miklus]

It seems that the OP knows more about this already than most...

I admit to beeing a noob in comparison, but I agree that you can't go wrong with a greatsword. I tried to build Roy Greenhilt just for laughs. It works really well. Although I did multiclass him to paladin after 4 levels of fighter. There is only one problem: He can't disable traps. But as he says "I got plenty of hit points!". 98 acid damage to the face :smallbiggrin:

I think Thog would do really well to. Sure, the greatsword does more damage on average, but the greataxe has a better chance of really big hits that can overcome damage reduction. And it is the big monsters that give you problems, not the token mooks.

I also tried to build Miko...That did not work out. I tried to make her a dex-based fighter with Finesse, ambidex and two-weapon fighting. Am I right in thinking that fighting with two weapons just sucks? She had huge problems overcoming damage reduction on monsters. Her AC sucked too, even with wisdom bonus from monk levels. She could not remove traps either, but lacked the HP to tough it out. So she had to tow that Toni Undergarments fellow around. Talk about an odd couple. I didn't get very far with that build.

Not to hijack the thread but I am curious, could you make Miko work at all?

[Surrealistik]

Gotta go with Clericzilla really. It's ridiculously versatile, can take on anything, has incredible staying power and isn't FUBARed by immunities or True Sight.

Travel or War or Strength/Trickery cleric is basically the best low to mid PvMer around. Throw in extended Divine Power and the mess of other buffs it can use, including Improved Invisibility and Haste, and you have basically got an unstoppable Clericzilla.

[taltamir]

I admit to beeing a noob in comparison, but I agree that you can't go wrong with a greatsword. I tried to build Roy Greenhilt just for laughs. It works really well. Although I did multiclass him to paladin after 4 levels of fighter. There is only one problem: He can't disable traps. But as he says "I got plenty of hit points!". 98 acid damage to the face :smallbiggrin:
Works especially well if you have any form of regen... traps? I laugh at your "traps".
Also, in NWN1 there is no "breaking" mechanism, you can just bash anything with a lock with no harm... (its stupid though that NWN2 does have the break mechanism... when you use a crowbar to open a lock you aren't smashing a chest to bits with hammer... but as far as it is concerned you just did smash a chest to bits with a hammer)


I think Thog would do really well to. Sure, the greatsword does more damage on average, but the greataxe has a better chance of really big hits that can overcome damage reduction. And it is the big monsters that give you problems, not the token mooks.
I once actually did probability calculations for the crits, damage, etc and calculated greatsword to have overall greater DPS than greataxe. But you can roll a higher max damage on the axe, which can help in some situations.


I also tried to build Miko...That did not work out. I tried to make her a dex-based fighter with Finesse, ambidex and two-weapon fighting. Am I right in thinking that fighting with two weapons just sucks?

It does suck. Two handed > One handed (redeemable via shield) > double wielding (double sided weapon or two weapons are the same) > unarmed.
That being said, there are some tricks you can make, up to and including a two handed fighting build that gets infinite attacks per round (literally) due to some bugs in the PnP rules.

In NWN however, the best you can do is drop 4 feats on it and wield a light weapon offhand and a medium one in main hand for a -2 on all attacks, and two attacks with off hand... of course, your off hand does significantly worse damage. you lose out on str 1.5x, you lose out on to hit... you could have used those 4 feats to actually get yourself some good damage and not suck...
Monks can also be made viable in PnP via special tricks (namely, use their impressive natural defenses, complemented by UMD and WBL to make the WBL based pseudo-wizards that are really tough to kill)

Basically you want to be either a sword and board or a two handed weapon wielder.

Anyways... I got further in SoU... I got money coming out of my nether regions but shops simply have crap item selection, if any... its not that I have no money, its that I have nothing to buy... this is very different then others in the series. I did find some minor rewards... that being said, I do have a nice list of immunities... not as big as I wanted though, I am still missing on regen, haste, and total immunity to all mind affecting (I did buy a robe of FoM for 20K GP, and I got an amulet of health... actually got several through various quests and drops and sold a bunch).

Also, SoU does has rest limitations... for some reason I thought it was just in most the premium modules and custom content, but even the official campaigns have rest limitations.

However, they are not too critical, just tedious (thus far), you can just run somewhere "safe" and rest.

[Rollory]

I haven't seen this posted yet:

http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_builds.html

Whirling Death, Reliable Archer, and Undead Lord are particularly worth looking at, IMO. Dragon Savant can actually get Dragon Shape much earlier than they have it listed there - I think I got it in the low 30s, don't remember exactly.

The downside of most of those is that they take a long time to become superpowered. If you want something that will be powerful while leveling, battle clerics are definitely a good way to go (make them half-orc and stick a level of barbarian on there early on for a little extra power - through most of the single-digit levels, your attack bonus will be twice what a normal melee character of a comparable level would be).

I also particularly like gnome sorceror with greater spell focus illusion, transmutation, and silent spell. Specific tactics will be left as an exercise for the reader. I'll just say that everything rolls a 1 on a fort save sooner or later.

[Trazoi]

Am I right in thinking that fighting with two weapons just sucks?
It's good for rogue builds; if your character can do sneak attacks then you'll do a lot of damage in your first round. And if you're playing a ranger you'll get the feats for free, so why not? Otherwise I'd agree it's just for character flavour, or the off-chance that you'll find two weapons with awesome magic effects (which sometimes makes sense for pure spellcasters; it doesn't matter what your wizard is holding).