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Zieu
2010-07-08, 01:10 AM
I did a search that turned up nothing closely related, and did a quick skim of the Real World Weapon Questions thread to no avail.

I'm at a juncture in my campaign where we've arrived in a big city and I need to take advantage of the opportunity to get caught up in terms of weapons and equipment. The idea of a Scottish claymore came to mind, but I couldn't think of a specific example that would parallel its stats. The closest I could come to was a Greatsword, but...

Claymores can be one-handed or two-handed.
- The one-handed version weighs about 2 or 3 pounds
- The two-handed version weighs about 5 to 5.5 pounds

If my DM approved this as a weapon choice, what would be some likely stats for it based on its size/weight? D8's, D10's or D12's?) Crit range, martial or exotic, etc?

Thanks.

gallagher
2010-07-08, 01:12 AM
Bastard sword

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-08, 01:12 AM
When you say one-handed claymore, do you mean the basket-hilted backswords?

Zieu
2010-07-08, 01:19 AM
When you say one-handed claymore, do you mean the basket-hilted backswords?

Well it's really a shorter, lighter claymore, but then again I'm using Wikpedia as my only source so far.

EDIT: @Gallagher - Well I considered a Bastard sword previously, but the reason I didn't think it was a good match for the claymore was that it's a "hand-and-a-half" sword; not big enough to warrant two-handed use, but not small enough to be one-handed either. The claymore I have in mind is either one or the other stats-wise, not a weird middleground like the bastard sword.

Grumman
2010-07-08, 01:24 AM
The claymore I have in mind is either one or the other stats-wise, not a weird middleground like the bastard sword.
Longsword or Greatsword, then.

gallagher
2010-07-08, 01:25 AM
Well it's really a shorter, lighter claymore, but then again I'm using Wikpedia as my only source so far.

EDIT: @Gallagher - Well I considered a Bastard sword previously, but the reason I didn't think it was a good match for the claymore was that it's a "hand-and-a-half" sword; not big enough to warrant two-handed use, but not small enough to be one-handed either. The claymore I have in mind is either one or the other stats-wise, not a weird middleground like the bastard sword. have it without the feat, and it is two handed. THF is better than sword and board anyway.

though if you want to take EWP for a sword, you might as well spring for a jovar. its a better greatsword

Zieu
2010-07-08, 01:31 AM
have it without the feat, and it is two handed. THF is better than sword and board anyway.

though if you want to take EWP for a sword, you might as well spring for a jovar. its a better greatsword

I can't find it in the PHB -- what makes the jovar better?

Sindri
2010-07-08, 01:41 AM
A Scottish claymore is a greatsword. If you want a lighter weapon, everything from bastard sword to longsword to shortsword to rapier to falchion is available to you. There have been a great many weapons throughout history in widely disparate cultures that are similar in appearance and identical in usage and function, and for your convenience D&D has simplified it into a few archetypes, to which you can assign your own names. A bastard sword is also a katana; a short sword is simultaneously a very long knife, a gladius, and whatever else you want; a greatclub is both the stereotypical caveman weapon and that tree the ogre ripped up and hit you with. It really doesn't matter if you want to call your rapier an épée, or your javelin a jarid, or your hand axe a tomahawk, and in some cases you should rename your weapon (a falchion is a relatively light, one handed weapon).

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-08, 01:49 AM
Longsword or Greatsword, then.

This. Why the need of specific stats? :smallconfused:

kpenguin
2010-07-08, 02:01 AM
Indeed. A claymore is a greatsword in the same manner that a katana is a bastard sword. There is no reason to come up with new unique stats for it.

Leon
2010-07-08, 02:32 AM
As others have Said, Greatsword for a big two hander, bastard for the middle range and longsword for the one hander

Apply what ever name is appropriate to what your looking for and roll onwards.

I like to re-flavor the Great club (and its mental image of a large lump of wood) into the much more refined War Staff - a evolution of the humble quarter staff.

Jeff the Green
2010-07-08, 02:48 AM
Like everyone's said: Highland claymore = great sword; basket-hilted claymore = long sword. Though if I were going with the basket-hilted version, I'd say it had a built-in buckler to represent the basket-hilt.

The only real-life weapons that really would need something other than reflavoring are really funky ones like the macahuitl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macuahuitl). Even khopeshes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khopesh) can be scimitars and chakrams (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chakram) darts.

Andion Isurand
2010-07-08, 02:52 AM
I can't find it in the PHB -- what makes the jovar better?

Jovar: Named for the layer of Celestia on which the city
of Yetsira sits, the exotic weapon known as a jovar is the
preferred weapon of the Heavenly City’s archon guards.

Planar Hanbook (pg. 68)

An exotic 2hander.

Just like a greatsword, but with a 18-20/x2 crit range.

Prime32
2010-07-08, 04:37 AM
You realise that the word "claymore" literally means "greatsword", right?

paddyfool
2010-07-08, 04:45 AM
Agreed with prior posters. Also, if you're worried about weight... the weights for all of the swords in the PHB are too heavy, so I either wouldn't worry about it, or fluff it as including the weight of a big fancy scabbard, a belt or harnass to hold the blade and scabbard, oil, whetstone etc.

Spiryt
2010-07-08, 04:48 AM
Agreed with prior posters. Also, if you're worried about weight... the weights for all of the swords in the PHB are too heavy, so I either wouldn't worry about it, or fluff it as including the weight of a big fancy scabbard, a belt or harnass to hold the blade and scabbard, oil, whetstone etc.

And a mule to carry this stuff, and still perform Leap attack. :smallbiggrin:

Murdim
2010-07-08, 05:24 AM
A Scottish claymore is a greatsword. If you want a lighter weapon, everything from bastard sword to longsword to shortsword to rapier to falchion is available to you. There have been a great many weapons throughout history in widely disparate cultures that are similar in appearance and identical in usage and function, and for your convenience D&D has simplified it into a few archetypes, to which you can assign your own names. A bastard sword is also a katana; a short sword is simultaneously a very long knife, a gladius, and whatever else you want; a greatclub is both the stereotypical caveman weapon and that tree the ogre ripped up and hit you with. It really doesn't matter if you want to call your rapier an épée, or your javelin a jarid, or your hand axe a tomahawk, and in some cases you should rename your weapon (a falchion is a relatively light, one handed weapon).
There's something that always bugged me. The D&D3,5 short sword is a piercing, gladius-like weapon. Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent ?

TurtleKing
2010-07-08, 05:32 AM
The Arms and Equipment guide as a list of D&D weapons and the real world equilavents. The Scottish claymore is a Greatsword. P 12 and 13 is where you can find the conversions for the weapons.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 05:32 AM
"or fluff it as including the weight of a big fancy scabbard, a belt or harnass to hold the blade and scabbard, oil, whetstone etc."

...And about a dozen bricks, in the case of the greatsword.


"Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent ?"

There's the cutlass; it's just not in the DMG.

I once wanted a character to use a pair long stilettos for character reasons (1d4 18-20/x3), but the GM was resistant to me essentially using kukri which did pierce instead of slash because it 'wasn't in the rules'. After some head scratching, I got him to agree instead to halfling-sized rapiers with bigger handles. Go figure.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 05:43 AM
Its quite common for weapons to be basically similar to other weapons, but doing a different damage type. The Planar Handbook has a martial weapon that's identical to the short sword in nearly every way- except it does slashing damage instead of piercing damage.

paddyfool
2010-07-08, 06:20 AM
"or fluff it as including the weight of a big fancy scabbard, a belt or harnass to hold the blade and scabbard, oil, whetstone etc."

...And about a dozen bricks, in the case of the greatsword.

A 3lb discrepancy isn't all that bad - big swords need big scabbards, after all. And the carrying limits are sufficiently forgiving for high Str characters that it makes no real game difference anyway, even if you do keep a careful track of this.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 06:24 AM
In the 2nd ed Arms and Equipment Guide, the claymore fell somewhere between the bastard sword and the greatsword in capabilities.

Did Scottish warriors ever wield the claymore of the large kind, in conjunction with a shield, or was it just a little too big to be wielded like that by anyone?

If too big- it should be a greatsword.
If a sufficiently skilled character could wield it in one hand- it should maybe be a bastard sword.

snoopy13a
2010-07-08, 06:24 AM
There's something that always bugged me. The D&D3,5 short sword is a piercing, gladius-like weapon. Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent ?

Would those fall under the scimitar?

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 06:27 AM
Planar Handbook had the straightblade- a martial slashing shortsword.

The cutlass used to be both piercing and slashing (in FRCS and Dragon 318) but became slashing only, in Stormwrack.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-08, 06:32 AM
The cutlass used to be both piercing and slashing (in FRCS and Dragon 318) but became slashing only, in Stormwrack.

I happy they nerfed it. Too overpowered, the FRCS version. :smallwink:

Matthew
2010-07-08, 06:37 AM
I did a search that turned up nothing closely related, and did a quick skim of the Real World Weapon Questions thread to no avail.

I'm at a juncture in my campaign where we've arrived in a big city and I need to take advantage of the opportunity to get caught up in terms of weapons and equipment. The idea of a Scottish claymore came to mind, but I couldn't think of a specific example that would parallel its stats. The closest I could come to was a Greatsword, but...

Claymores can be one-handed or two-handed.
- The one-handed version weighs about 2 or 3 pounds
- The two-handed version weighs about 5 to 5.5 pounds

If my DM approved this as a weapon choice, what would be some likely stats for it based on its size/weight? D8's, D10's or D12's?) Crit range, martial or exotic, etc?

D20/3e has at least two levels of abstraction with regards to weapons. In the default rules, a great sword covers all two-handed straight bladed swords, and the long sword and short sword cover smaller sorts. The bastard sword is more demonstration of a game mechanism than it is representation of any specific sort of weapon. However, just as in AD&D, as the supplements continue to appear you see more and more specific weapon types with their own characteristics, which gives the false impression of equivalent levels of abstraction dealing with identifiable weapon types, which is potentially quite fun. Unfortunately, the low granularity means that there are only so many iterations on the theme.

The best question to ask is, perhaps, what do you think the difference is between a claymore and a D&D great sword? Once you have a clear idea of that you may be able to abstractly represent it. If it is going to be "better" than a great sword you probably need to look at how it can interact with specially designed claymore feats.



There's something that always bugged me. The D&D3,5 short sword is a piercing, gladius-like weapon. Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent?

In first edition AD&D (where just about all the weapon classifications come from) a short sword was more accurately described as any cut and thrust sword of 15-24" in blade length. Basically the designers of D20/3e never seem to have really gotten past that generalisation, even after turning it into the "piercing only" gladius of the popular imagination.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 06:48 AM
"Would those fall under the scimitar?"

That's a medium length weapon. Shortswords are...shorter.


"Did Scottish warriors ever wield the claymore of the large kind, in conjunction with a shield"

No; it's a two handed weapon. A relatively small two handed sword, but still definitely two handed.

Smaller Scottish swords were normally used with a small shield and dagger off-hand. Very few one-handed swords (including rapiers) were ever intended to be used without a shield of some sort.

balistafreak
2010-07-08, 06:57 AM
That's it. I'm sick of all this "Masterwork Greatsword" bulls--- that's going on in the d20 system right now...

*smack*

Sorry, had to. :smallamused:

To repeat, yeah, why isn't the claymore just a greatsword? That's literally what it means.

Or were you considering hitting your opponent with one of these?

http://www.chrisabraham.com/claymore-thumb.jpg

panaikhan
2010-07-08, 07:56 AM
Or were you considering hitting your opponent with one of these?

http://www.chrisabraham.com/claymore-thumb.jpg

If you are, be sure to be wearing your Fire Resist 10 jacket, your DR 10/- vest, and your sunglasses.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 07:59 AM
^

Pfft...no: EVASION!

Closet_Skeleton
2010-07-08, 08:07 AM
No; it's a two handed weapon. A relatively small two handed sword, but still definitely two handed.

Claymores aren't small. They're just realistic. They're a couple of centimeters inches on average than a germanic two-handed sword, but are still pretty much the largest sword you'd ever use in real life.

All the bigger "real" swords are ceremonial/display pieces.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 08:12 AM
Weren't there non-ceremonial bihanders and zweihanders:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bihander

that maybe maxed out at around 7 lb? A little heavier than the heavy-type claymores, which were more like 6 lb?

Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?

The shorter hand-and-a-half swords (the kind where there wasn't quite enough room on the hilt, and you had to grip the pommel) are more like D&D longswords- which can work as both one and two-handed weapons.

Closet_Skeleton
2010-07-08, 08:15 AM
Weren't there non-ceremonial bihanders and zweihanders:

Depends which historian you ask.


Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?

Nah, claymores are definately two-handed weapons. Just not the longest and heaviest ones.

Hand-and-a-half swords were pretty much always used two handed though. According to certain historians that is.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 08:19 AM
While wikipedia isn't always accurate, it does mention small hand-and-a-half swords, which could be used one or two handed- and it was only quite late, that ones with a grip big enough to easily fit two hands on, appeared:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

Compared to those small ones, a claymore probably does qualify as a small greatsword, rather than a large bastard sword.

Matthew
2010-07-08, 08:33 AM
While wikipedia isn't always accurate, it does mention small hand-and-a-half swords, which could be used one or two handed- and it was only quite late, that ones with a grip big enough to easily fit two hands on, appeared:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longsword

Compared to those small ones, a claymore probably does qualify as a small greatsword, rather than a large bastard sword.

A lot depends on the size of the wielder as well. Weapon nomenclature is by no means a precise science, and a "two-handed sword" could have a blade length of anywhere from around 36"-60" and a weight of 5-8 lbs. More usually they would be on the shorter and lighter end of the scale, though. The word "claymore" is used most frequently to describe two types of Scottish sword from the very late medieval to early modern period. As noted, however, it translates to "big sword" or some such thing and so was probably initially used to describe a sword larger than was normal.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 08:39 AM
4E adds another couple of swords to the range- the Broadsword (martial, versatile, slightly clumsier than the longsword but more damaging) and the Fullblade (bigger than the Greatsword, Superior (4E Exotic)).

(in 3E, the Fullblade was only in the 3.0 source Arms & Equipment Guide)

So, it could run Short Sword, Longsword, Broadsword, Bastard Sword, Greatsword, Fullblade.

And that's just the straight swords that aren't slender like the Rapier.

As to what each sword represents, might work something like this:

Fullblade- Largest known practically used zweihander
Greatsword- two-handed claymore
Bastard sword- smallest hand-and-a-half sword
Broadsword- wide-bladed sword
Longsword- larger knightly arming sword
Swortsword- smallest arming sword

phiris
2010-07-08, 09:29 AM
the only difference that a claymore has historically was in the tactics of the highlanders;

the claymore had to be long enough to fend off the spears & lances of the english invaders, but once they got in CC they found that the blade would be too long to use effectively. to fix this, rather than use the large claymore to get in and a smaller weapon once they were up close they kept the first 6-8 inches of the blade itself from the hilt dull and often wrapped as a second hilt, with a second, smaller hilt above this.

http://remvorgsdwarvensmithy.theshoppe.com/mmedia/claymore.jpg
(not best example unfortunately, but the additional wrapping over the hilt is what i mean)

in game terms, the best you could do is have it be a greatsword that could count as a longsword, but thats a bit OP

Prime32
2010-07-08, 09:34 AM
to fix this, rather than use the large claymore to get in and a smaller weapon once they were up close they kept the first 6-8 inches of the blade itself from the hilt dull and often wrapped as a second hilt, with a second, smaller hilt above this.I thought that was zweihanders?


in game terms, the best you could do is have it be a greatsword that could count as a longsword, but thats a bit OPI don't see the logic. They're still holding it with two hands, just with a different grip. Maybe you can use it to attack while grappling as if it were a light weapon? Though I'd stat that more as an add-on for greatswords (and possibly other weapons) which costs, say, +300gp.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 09:40 AM
Claymores aren't small. They're just realistic.


Again: Relatively small two handed sword. They are typically smaller than later Germanic styled blades, which are the 'classic' greatsword in most people's eyes.



Maybe claymores are bastard swords- and no-one ever took Exotic Weapon Proficiency, so to speak?


A Claymore is just as lethal as a slightly larger German blade in a cut. The difference really is that the later greatswords are a complete and refined weapon system. Every part of the weapon is designed to strike, parry, bind, or provide leverage. A Greatsword isn't a 'thug' weapon that involves hacking at people; it's a part of a complex and very refined fighting system.


"Hand-and-a-half swords were pretty much always used two handed though. According to certain historians that is."

...And anyone who fences with one. Using them in one hand is a little like using a katana in one hand... but worse. There is simply no point using one hand when you can possibly use two... just like handguns. Even arming [long] swords saw plenty of historical two handed use; not only to get more power, but for control, reduction of fatigue and - critically - pin-point accuracy.

Zieu
2010-07-08, 10:57 AM
Though if I were going with the basket-hilted version, I'd say it had a built-in buckler to represent the basket-hilt.

This is an interesting point. Can a weapon actually count as armor and add to AC (without TWD or the like)?


You realise that the word "claymore" literally means "greatsword", right?

Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs.

Prime32
2010-07-08, 11:00 AM
Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs.Why do people keep doing this? There is no language called Gaelic. :smallsigh:

Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

Zieu
2010-07-08, 11:04 AM
Why do people keep doing this? There is no language called Gaelic. :smallsigh: Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

:smallconfused: Scottish Gaelic then. I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 11:07 AM
"Though if I were going with the basket-hilted version, I'd say it had a built-in buckler to represent the basket-hilt."


!!!!

Erm... that's not really very realistic. By the same logic rapiers should have a 'free' buckler, as should cutlasses. In fact: Sign me up for a pair of those for an extra 2AC.

You might as well give swords a +1AC bonus because they're handy for parrying with. Or give maces and most other weapons a -1AC modifier because they don't have a cross-guard or any protection for the hand.

Basket hilts are there to stop your hand getting stabbed; not to deliberately routinely parry blows with. Not unless you want to end up without a hand.

A buckler can be freely moved around to deflect blows with while you strike with a weapon. A basket hilt is attached to your weapon. You don't constantly move your weapon hand to try to block with it, because then you're never going to hit anything. The two couldn't really be much more different in use or intention.


"Actually, in Gaelic it means "big sword". But maybe that's just splitting hairs."
"I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language."

Turnabout's fair play? :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2010-07-08, 11:08 AM
:smallconfused: Scottish Gaelic then. I didn't see the point in being overly specific in my reference to a old language.Referring to Scottish as Gaelic is like referring to Spanish as "Mediterranean".

And these languages are still used, regardless of how little sense it makes to do so. :smalltongue:

Zieu
2010-07-08, 11:13 AM
Referring to Scottish as Gaelic is like referring to Spanish as "Mediterranean".

And these languages are still used, regardless of how little sense it makes to do so. :smalltongue:

I'm not sure I understand the similie, but then again I've never been to Spain :smallsmile:

And true, they're still used. They are old though, you have to admit (not Latin old, but still...)

paddyfool
2010-07-08, 11:15 AM
The first problem with calling Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic) Scottish is that as of the last census, only about 1.2% of the population of Scotland speak it. Also, given the context it's hardly going to be confused with the only other two surviving languages of the family (Irish Gaelic and Manx).

EDIT: The second problem is that it gets it confused with the very different Scots language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language).

EDIT: Also, a better simile would be "Italic" or "Romance". Except, of course, that these language family names aren't colloquially used to mean specific examples of the family so much, precisely because they have more surviving members.

Siosilvar
2010-07-08, 11:16 AM
-misc stuff-There is a quote button at the bottom right corner of all posts, and a little thing beside it that lets you quote multiple posts at once (which, if I'm correct, is new from around two hours ago).




Nevertheless, yes, a claymore is a Greatsword in stats if not in name. The same applies to various polearms - axelike? It's a glaive. Spearish? Ranseur. Mostly choppy with some hook bits? Guisarme.

Psyx
2010-07-08, 11:25 AM
Nevertheless, yes, a claymore is a Greatsword in stats if not in name.

Oh; I don't disagree at all. That was my original point: It already falls into the broad category of greatsword. It might be a bit of a small and slightly less sophisticated two handed sword, but it's a greatsword, not a bastard sword.

D&D lacks the granularity to differentiate, and to be honest, I can't think of many games that would ever bother to, or any situation where it would be worth doing so.

Edit: ...Unless I'd just missed a crucial grapple, disarm, subdual damage or trip attempt by one with a late-period greatsword and the GM asks if I can think of any blag: 'Yeah, sure... this bad boy is built for this kinda s**t!' :smallbiggrin:

The Big Dice
2010-07-08, 11:31 AM
Nor are there enough words in Gaelic-family languages that "big" and "great" would have different translations.

Apart from the Welsh braisg (big, large) and mawr (great, bulky) that is. The Celtic/Gaelic language family is more sophisticated than most people think. And Welsh in particular is both a living language and the oldest spoken language in Europe.


The first problem with calling Scottish Gaelic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic) Scottish is that as of the last census, only about 1.2% of the population of Scotland speak it. Also, given the context it's hardly going to be confused with the only other two surviving languages of the family (Irish Gaelic and Manx).
There's also Cornish Gaelic (http://www.cornish-language.org/english/faq.asp), Welsh and Breton.
/derail

paddyfool
2010-07-08, 11:33 AM
And Welsh in particular is both a living language and the oldest spoken language in Europe.

Co-Euskara-ough :smallwink:


There's also Cornish Gaelic (http://www.cornish-language.org/english/faq.asp), Welsh and Breton.
/derail

Welsh, Cornish, and Breton are Brythonic, not Goidelic. Different branch. [/nitpick] [/derail]

dgnslyr
2010-07-08, 03:49 PM
If you are, be sure to be wearing your Fire Resist 10 jacket, your DR 10/- vest, and your sunglasses.

Maybe he's referring to a claymore with a claymore attached to it? Now THAT would be worth Exotic Weapon Proficiency.

Ormagoden
2010-07-08, 04:02 PM
There's something that always bugged me. The D&D3,5 short sword is a piercing, gladius-like weapon. Why isn't there a slashing, wakizashi or cutlass-like equivalent ?

There is! use short sword stats and change the P to S.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 04:05 PM
Which Planar Handbook has already done, with its straightblade- slashing, but same damage, weight and crit range as a short sword, and is martial.

Hague
2010-07-08, 04:38 PM
Just like how an estoc is a bastard sword with piercing?

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 04:49 PM
If the estoc hasn't already been statted out- doing it that way would probably be the best way.