Pathfinder: what's the point of the Alchemist?

[Kurald Galain]

I've been reading up on the Pathfinder RPG and I don't really "get" the Alchemist so far. It's a new class from their Advanced Player's Guide.

Basically, what it does is create concoctions, which are like potions except they have to be prepared every day, can only be used by yourself, and become inert when given to somebody else. And when used, they duplicate a wizard spell. So why wouldn't you simply play a wizard or sorcerer?

[Kaiyanwang]

Well, there are things that the Wizard can't do, at least, not directly - like the Elixir of Life, that counts as a true resurrection (I ignore if they changed it, I know ATM only the playtest and I play with core only).

In the previews I've seen other strange effects, like the ability to concentrate poison and increase his DC and duration.

Moreover, IMO is a mistake think that everything should be used in the same moment, expecially with a convoluted, complex and full of sub-system edition like 3.5 and its "clones".

Maybe for the campaign I want to run now, wizards and some of their spells are not suitable, for power level, mechanics and/or flavour.

I can easily imagine a dungeon-steampunk-ish setting with fighters, rogues and alchemist only. I think could be cool, I want to create one if I buy the book.

[Gnaeus]

I've been reading up on the Pathfinder RPG and I don't really "get" the Alchemist so far. It's a new class from their Advanced Player's Guide.

Basically, what it does is create concoctions, which are like potions except they have to be prepared every day, can only be used by yourself, and become inert when given to somebody else. And when used, they duplicate a wizard spell. So why wouldn't you simply play a wizard or sorcerer?

I think that a poison using bomb thrower with a Dr Jekyl/Mr Hyde theme with moderate HP, BaB and light armor use isn't really filling the same niche. It is certainly a lot more different from wizard than sorcerer is.

[FelixG]

I have been experimenting with a really fun alchemist/assassin build lately and it is turning out to be a fairly fun combo :D

Especially with their class level being a bonus to their craft alchemy checks, they can make alot of the things they use and make them quick so they are more self sufficient.

[Person_Man]

I agree. Things that make the Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/alchemist) suck:
The mechanics don't make sense for this concept - what's the point of creating potions/extracts/whatever if they don't behave exactly like spells, but worse?
Very limited "spell list" that only goes up to 6th level spells.
Extracts if they become inert after 24 hours.
Extracts immediately become inert if you give them to someone else (unless you spend a "Discovery" so that others can take them).
Bomb making/throwing mechanics suck. It's essentially a full round action to throw a splash weapon that deals (level/2)*1d6 + Int damage + minor secondary effect that you choose from a list damage. And you can only do so limited times per day.
Bombs Discoveries basically just mimic spells, but with a lousy area of effect, and you can't apply metamagic.
There is no multi-class or prestige class synergy with anything. The only rational Alchemist build is Alchemist 20. To do otherwise is to utterly nerf all of your (already mediocre) class features.

Perhaps they've changed it since that version. But that version sucks.

It's a shame too. There are a few interesting/cool alchemist class abilities related to Poison and Potion use. Maybe I'll homebrew a fix.

[Nero24200]

I think the point of the Alchemist is that it is intended to be something along the lines of a crafting focused gish - Using it's abilities and spells to buff himself.

Whether or not it does it well in practise is another thing. Having said that I don't think the class is that bad, though certain elements about it do irk me (like the "Your potions don't work if you give them to someone else" element, which comes accross purely as a gamist idea).

[Ashiel]

I have been experimenting with a really fun alchemist/assassin build lately and it is turning out to be a fairly fun combo :D

Especially with their class level being a bonus to their craft alchemy checks, they can make alot of the things they use and make them quick so they are more self sufficient.

Yes. Since you can choose to increase the DC of whatever you're creating to make it faster, alchemists are pretty good at cranking out stuff quickly; particularly at higher levels. Then getting the ability to craft items in half the time at 3rd level; and then later you can create any alchemical item as a full-round action if you have the materials. That's pretty sweet. :smallbiggrin:

However, some of the real attraction that they have is they can self buff and bomb the ever-loving crap out of stuff. You're allowed to make bomb-attacks as a grenadelike weapon a number of times per day equal to level + Int modifier; which by 20th level should be around 30; and each bomb will deal about 10d6+10 damage which deal 20 splash damage in a 10ft radius, being used during a full-attack, and putting a miniature cloudkill in the blast radius of each bomb that goes off.

Or you can turn yourself into a monster with your mutagens; which can last all day at higher levels and can do some fun things.

You also get brew potion at 1st level, and can brew anything up to 3rd level formulae and spread them amongst your party. I don't care what anyone says, crafting a few potions of enlarge person for 25gp (especially since you can multiple really cheap potions and scrolls in a single day in Pathfinder) can be pretty awesome for quite a few levels.

Basically, it's got an entirely different feel to it than a traditional wizard, can be customized to do a few different things, and is pretty decent/well rounded. :smallsmile:

[Prodan]

You're allowed to make bomb-attacks as a grenadelike weapon a number of times per day equal to level + Int modifier; which by 20th level should be around 30; and each bomb will deal about 10d6+10 damage which deal 20 splash damage in a 10ft radius, being used during a full-attack, and putting a miniature cloudkill in the blast radius of each bomb that goes off.
This is not impressive at level 20.

[Gnaeus]

This is not impressive at level 20.

Compared to whom? With decent BAB and HP + Mutagen (penalizing Wisdom, which doesn't hurt the alchemist) + swift applied poisons that last multiple attacks, it compares favorably to melee. It can self buff, including significant self healing. Its saves and skills make it a passable trap monkey. The bombs are just an extra.

[Prodan]

Not even monks are threatened by poison at level 20.

[Gnaeus]

Not even monks are threatened by poison at level 20.

Monks aren't, but the self buffed Alchemist is more than the equal of a monk in combat anyway. Significantly better out of combat (where he can fly, heal, use divinations, etc.)

The pathfinder rules, while weakening poison overall, are actually kind of good for an Alchemist. Poisons like Dragon Bile and Purple worm poison could easily hit save DCs in the 30s after a couple hits from a full attack. Lots of things don't autosucceed on a 30 fort save.

[BobVosh]

It's a shame too. There are a few interesting/cool alchemist class abilities related to Poison and Potion use. Maybe I'll homebrew a fix.

If you do, please send me a link. This and cavalier is two classes I'm looking forward to see if they fix/finish whenever they release the book.

Also I'm curious what summoner will look like.

[Ashiel]

Not even monks are threatened by poison at level 20.

Monks and druids. Many other creatures however have to invest in poison blocking items; which incidentally take up a body slot by default. Additionally at 6th level an Alchemist may keep their weapon poisoned for an additional number of attacks equal to their Int modifier, so if at 6th level you have a +5 Int, then one application of poison is good for 6 attacks before needing to be re-applied.

Drow Poison (merely 25gp to create yourself) turns a weapon into a save-or-die at low through mid levels. You'd be surprised the stuff that will botch that DC 13 save vs unconscious.

Should you have a character entirely focused around it as a single attack form? Probably not. Then again, I dislike most characters that focus on anything as their only method of attack; because they tend too become rather useless when not presented with something vulnerable to their main shtick.

[Prodan]

Monks and druids. Many other creatures however have to invest in poison blocking items; which incidentally take up a body slot by default.
Unless they're Balors, Pit Fiends, Undead... or did Pathfinder change that?

[Ashiel]

Also being able to create a Philosopher's Stone at no cost in a day once per month is pretty cool. It's an artifact after all. While at 20th level creating 20,000-50,000gp out of thin air isn't that amazing, it's pretty cool; or can be used as a free true resurrection which is nice. :smalltongue:

[Gnaeus]

I agree. Things that make the Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/advanced-player-s-guide-playtest/alchemist) suck:
[LIST] The mechanics don't make sense for this concept - what's the point of creating potions/extracts/whatever if they don't behave exactly like spells, but worse?

Not always. Getting hit with an AOO doesn't disrupt a person drinking a potion. There is a feat in one of the PF campaign supplements that lets you drink a potion as a move action (I don't remember if it does anything about the provoking problem). You can take the Delay Potion feat, which is like quickening one buff per combat with no metamagic adjustment. People can't identify the effect you just used. It is silent. You are harder to counterspell. There are lots of ways that using potions can be better than spells.

Also, personally, I would consider a 1 level dip into a melee class for martial weapons and better armor. But it is true, alchemist 19-20 does seem to be the way to go. This is one of PF's design goals as I understand it.

It isn't a Tier 1 or 2 caster. I think it is firmly in tier 3. it can melee well. Ranged combat passably. Decent non-combat utility and survivability. Rarely going to be in a condition where none of its abilities are useful.

Nothing looks good when the question asked is "Why didn't you make a wizard". There are good reasons to take an Alchemist over, for example, a Psi Warrior or a Duskblade, both of which are tier 3. (not saying that the Alchemist is BETTER than those two good classes, but it is comparable to them, and better at some things.


Unless they're Balors, Pit Fiends, Undead... or did Pathfinder change that?

Lots of critters are immune to mind effecting too. Doesn't make Beguilers useless. In those fights they use one of their other class powers, or find something to UMD.

[LibraryOgre]

We had an alchemist in our Pathfinder game (before it switched to C&C, which I consider a personal victory... ONE session of C&C convinced the DM to switch!), and he was wondering the same thing: He couldn't find a niche that he excelled at. I think he was thinking the alchemist was a DPS class, instead of a buffer.

[Kurald Galain]

...I suppose what bothers me about the class is that the potions you make don't behave like potions.

[Ashiel]

...I suppose what bothers me about the class is that the potions you make don't behave like potions.

Incorrect. Potions that you make function exactly like normal potions; only you get the feat at 1st level. You're confusing their alchemist extracts with potions; but the class makes it clear that those are two very different things.

Interestingly, in a party with a wizard, an alchemist and wizard can make potions earlier than either of them could normally; as the wizard normally couldn't acquire brew potion that early, while also providing a more versatile spell selection for the potion brews.

He can also copy Formulae from the appropriate wizard spells.

Don't forget that he may make use of wands and staffs (but not scrolls) with spells that appear on his Formulae list; giving him the ability to use spell-trigger items to cast them on allies.

[Kurald Galain]

Incorrect. Potions that you make function exactly like normal potions; only you get the feat at 1st level. You're confusing their alchemist extracts with potions; but the class makes it clear that those are two very different things.

That's my point. They're different mechanically, but from an IC perspective they're both small vials with some weird substance inside. But for an arbitrary reason, one of them works when I give it to my friend, and the other does not.

[Ashiel]

That's my point. They're different mechanically, but from an IC perspective they're both small vials with some weird substance inside. But for an arbitrary reason, one of them works when I give it to my friend, and the other does not.

Arbitrary? The class actually says that extracts combined part of the alchemist's own aura into them as a catalyst; making them self-only buffs.

EDIT: Additionally, vials of Acid are small vials/flasks with some weird substance inside; as are anti-toxins, alchemist fires, etc. They're not potions either.

[Gnaeus]

That's my point. They're different mechanically, but from an IC perspective they're both small vials with some weird substance inside. But for an arbitrary reason, one of them works when I give it to my friend, and the other does not.

I don't think the game would break if you pretended that line wasn't there, at least if the Alchemist is a PC.

But it isn't completely arbitrary. If you let them give away potions, you have just created a new class of 24 hour 6 spell level magic items. How do you price them? Can I buy an infusion of Polymorph with 23 hours remaining before my next urban adventure? I can see some good reasons for not wanting to open that can of worms.

[Kurald Galain]

Arbitrary? The class actually says that extracts combined part of the alchemist's own aura into them as a catalyst; making them self-only buffs.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Handwave
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AWizardDidIt

[Caphi]

But it isn't completely arbitrary. If you let them give away potions, you have just created a new class of 24 hour 6 spell level magic items. How do you price them? Can I buy an infusion of Polymorph with 23 hours remaining before my next urban adventure? I can see some good reasons for not wanting to open that can of worms.

This would be an excellent point, if not for the fact the Infusion discovery exists.

Really, I'd just give it to them and strike Infusion from the list. There's no good argument for making alchemist buffing Personal-style and then taxing them for the ability to help the party. If they want to try making money off of it, you can handle it when it rears its ugly head, but that's no reason to penalize every other alchemist's comrades.

[Gnaeus]

This would be an excellent point, if not for the fact the Infusion discovery exists.

Really, I'd just give it to them and strike Infusion from the list. There's no good argument for making alchemist buffing Personal-style and then taxing them for the ability to help the party. If they want to try making money off of it, you can handle it when it rears its ugly head, but that's no reason to penalize every other alchemist's comrades.


Good point. I would probably do the same in play. I wouldn't have any problem with PC alchemists trying to make money off of it, any more than other PC spellcasters being paid to cast spells. I just worry that there could be unforseen results like an assumption that based on the magic items available table infusions could automatically be purchased in most population centers. It is less a concern about what happens with a reasonable DM at a table than what RAW could turn it into.

[Caphi]

Good point. I would probably do the same in play. I wouldn't have any problem with PC alchemists trying to make money off of it, any more than other PC spellcasters being paid to cast spells. I just worry that there could be unforseen results like an assumption that based on the magic items available table infusions could automatically be purchased in most population centers. It is less a concern about what happens with a reasonable DM at a table than what RAW could turn it into.

That happens anyway. Infusion. The people that want to turn extracts into money are going to try to do it anyway, with varying degrees of success depending on GM, and that won't change if you give them infusions out the gate. Meanwhile, you remove the discovery tax from people that just want to be buff machines.

[Person_Man]

However, some of the real attraction that they have is they can self buff and bomb the ever-loving crap out of stuff. You're allowed to make bomb-attacks as a grenadelike weapon a number of times per day equal to level + Int modifier; which by 20th level should be around 30; and each bomb will deal about 10d6+10 damage which deal 20 splash damage in a 10ft radius, being used during a full-attack, and putting a miniature cloudkill in the blast radius of each bomb that goes off.

"Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

"Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert."

Another version which I read made it a move action to create a bomb, and a standard action to throw it, and it faded the round that it was created.

Either way, you can't make a full attack with bombs. 1 per round, just like Eldritch Blast.

[Ashiel]

"Creating and throwing a bomb requires a standard action that provokes an attack of opportunity."

"Bombs are unstable, and if not used in the round they are created, they degrade and become inert."

Another version which I read made it a move action to create a bomb, and a standard action to throw it, and it faded the round that it was created.

Either way, you can't make a full attack with bombs. 1 per round, just like Eldritch Blast.


Fast bombs: An alchemist with this discovery can quickly create enough bombs to throw more than one in a single round. The alchemist can prepare and throw additional bombs as a full-round action if his base attack bonus is high enough to grant him additional attacks. This functions just like a full-attack with ranged weapon. An alchemist must be at least 8th level before selecting this discovery.

(Text here so that the forum will allow me to post my response in quotations.)

[Person_Man]

(Text here so that the forum will allow me to post my response in quotations.)

Oh, sorry that I missed that. I apologize. Annoying that it's implemented as another "tax" on your Discover, and not as part of the base mechanic.

[Kobold-Bard]

If you do, please send me a link. This and cavalier is two classes I'm looking forward to see if they fix/finish whenever they release the book.

Also I'm curious what summoner will look like.

Me too if you ever do it. I love the idea of this class.

[Ashiel]

Oh, sorry that I missed that. I apologize. Annoying that it's implemented as another "tax" on your Discover, and not as part of the base mechanic.

No sweat man. It's easy to overlook something. :smallsmile:

[Grifthin]

Sounds like the witcher to me.

[Prodan]

Sounds like the witcher to me.

Well then I hope you've taken the necessary 8 week corrospondence course for making potions.

[Grifthin]

I have yatzee, I have.

[Ernir]

IMO, the biggest problem is it suffering from Wu Jen Syndrome... it overlaps thematically with a pre-existing class, and is therefore seen as redundant and weak.

[QuantumSteve]

IMO, the biggest problem is it suffering from Wu Jen Syndrome... it overlaps thematically with a pre-existing class, and is therefore seen as redundant and weak.

What class does it overlap with? 'Cause it's not like a Wizard at all. It's more like a Rogue that focuses on Craft Alchemy and Brew Potion. While it does have an ability that is spell-like (not to be confused with a spell-like ability:smalltongue:) its limited and focused nature makes it closer to Bard casting than Wizard. It gets bombs that are a cross between an Eldritch Blast and Alchemist Fire and a self-buff that is closer to Barbarian rage in a bottle than a spell. Also poison use, that too.

So, I guess it does overlap with your everyday Rogue/Bard/Warlock/Barbarian/Assassin.

Really, it's biggest problem is that it has such a diverse range of abilities that, like the Bard, it can be hard for the Alchemist to find it's niche.

[Fizban]

I don't think of the discoveries like Infusion and Fast Bombs as taxes: you get a discovery every other level, so they're pretty cheap. It's more like they would have normally given you these abilities at 2nd and 8th level, but they decided if you really didn't want them you could get another weaker ability. What I would really like would be if the discoveries were separated by the level you can get them at.

As for the class in general, I like it. Taking a bit of cheap non-magical stuff, jolting it with some magic, and then swigging it down or chucking it at someone is pretty nifty. For those saying the "extra magic required" is silly, I point you to the Wizard, who has to make some gunpowder before casting a Fireball. Assuming you take Infusion at 2nd level, which everyone will always, you basically do make short term potions. Usually it won't be any better than just casting spells, but every person that drinks an Infusion cuts a round off your pre-buff time. Normally setting up short term buffs on everyone could take several rounds, but if they can spend their own actions it takes a lot less time.

I like how the class gives you some ability to interact with normal items. The potion enhancing discoveries aren't very useful but at least they're something. Getting extra uses of poison is just plain awesome, and if you craft it yourself I could see the effective cost reduction making poison competitive. Instant Alchemy would be pretty nifty if you actually got it at a useful level, since even before 10th you can just by stuff by the gallon and put it in extradimensional storage.

The only thing I really dislike is the limit on bombs per day. If it were at will, it would theoretically make up for only having 6th level spells (comparing to a warlock). But I can see where the limit comes from, since Pathfinder really likes putting harsh limits on abilities (like Bardic Music and Rage). In a normal 3.5 game that limit needs to go. I would also really like to see some sort of Advanced Learning feature so you don't get stuck using the same spells all the time. And drop Heal down to 5th, there's no reason it should be delayed when your other healing spells aren't.

[Paul H]

Hi

In PFS I've played with a 2nd lvl Qadiran Halfling Alchemist. He threw 'bombs', or bags with Alchemist Fire & flasks of oil. 5D6 Fire dam to target, 5 splash dam.

Cheers
Paul H

[Kulture]

The limitation of the bomb mechanic is a real pain for the class.
It's a class ability comperable to sneak attack, already limited by the nature of the weapon, a ranged elemental splash weapon with a few other snacky discovery abilities, just as sneak attack is controlled by combat situation but ca be used in most cases with any weapon.

I'm another who's been toying with the alchemist assassin combo since it has bombs to make up for sneak attack, has a dex boosting ability in the mutagen and has the same BAB progression, plus there's synergy with int/dex being the core stats.
The reliance on discoveries to be useful and the distribution of decent discoveries somewhat disproportionately above 8th level means that an alchemist 10/ Assassin 10 is left somewhat lacking, though the delayed bomb discovery is almost essential from a thematic standpoint.

The alchemist is nonetheless versatile.
It is the grenadier, the door-kicker, the 'roid junkie and the humanoid IV drip all rolled into one.
I'm going to run the Alc/assassin as a major enemy in my local cityscape with a few houserules to let him take 3 rounds when setting a bomb to let him death attack with it and I'm also adding a stablising agent and a few chemical warfare weapons in to diversify the portfolio.
Maybe a weapon property that allows them to channel their bomb effects.

If the DM's really behind it you can work wonders with what Paizo's given us here.
It's just a case of adding some pollish.

[Tyndmyr]

Compared to whom? With decent BAB and HP + Mutagen (penalizing Wisdom, which doesn't hurt the alchemist) + swift applied poisons that last multiple attacks, it compares favorably to melee. It can self buff, including significant self healing. Its saves and skills make it a passable trap monkey. The bombs are just an extra.

Anyone, Im afraid.

Casters are like them, but strictly better.

Poison is notoriously weak. Racial buffs and the like against it abound. And, of course, there's flat out immunities like with monk. I haven't looked at cloudkill in PF recently, but if they've kept the HD cap...it's relatively worthless at 20.

Melee characters may have their flaws, compared to casters, but they still are not too shabby at straight damage production. I would expect them to easily manage to contribute greater amounts of damage, and the sword doesn't round outta charges.

It's a shame...I love the idea behind a potion master/grenadier, but I just don't think it translates well into practical play. I feel the "can't hand potions to others" is a bit redundant with the per-day limits on them...one or the other should be sufficient. Nobody so far has been willing to play one, because the obvious solution is to play a caster instead.

Heck, I can't really see it as that different from a ranged sneak attacker. You're going to get comparable ranged damage, and the rogue managed to avoid those nasty per-day limits. There's some differences, obviously, but it really does seem to suffer from lack of a unique job.

[Crasical]

... Well, darn. I had a character sheet for a goblin alchemist all ready from the Pathfinder Wiki. Its only now that I looked at the class and realized that self-buffing is really important for a successful alchemist. :/ Small size and 7 strength is going to be a big pile of suck to buff off of.


Fare thee well, Mekx Irondrinker. Your time never came.

[Starbuck_II]

IMO, the biggest problem is it suffering from Wu Jen Syndrome... it overlaps thematically with a pre-existing class, and is therefore seen as redundant and weak.

Wait, Awesome syndrome? Because Wu Jen are Awesome: Giant Size + Snake darts = awesome.

Regardless what petty wizard zards can do: they lack a save/die at 4th lv spell that has still kills on a success.
I mean, you deal 3d6 damage with each darts (you get 2) that can target samew or different target. If same that is 6d6 + 2 Fort saves or lose 1d6 Con now and another Fort save for each 1 minute later for another 1d6 each.

Now, most battles don't last 11 rounfs (except BBEG maybe), but the ability to deal 4d6 Con damage with 1 spell isw nice.

I've killed Hydras, Hill Giants, Fire Giants, etc when I was a Wu jen with 1 spell. Granted, the fire Giant was a tiny bit hurt by a dwarf but the spell killed (Con damage hurts).

[Dark_Juggernaut]

I'm running an alchemist in a campaign now and he's great.

Bombs are better than sneak attacks, that's why they are limited. It's because they ignore damage reduction and are TOUCH ATTACKS that add your INT to damage, twice with sticky bombs. Granted, I wish I could use Deadly Aim with them, but that's fine since I can nauseate everyone I hit for 2-5 rounds. With a pair of gauntlets of extended range and a bombers eye buff you've got a 60' increment, and -2 is nothing for a touch attack to toss further.

With the new alchemist feats from the Advanced Feats book and a potion belt, you can chug 6 buffs worth of potions in a single round (2 Combined, 1 Combined+Delayed). The rest of your party can can chug 4 buffs worth at a time in a single round.

The alchemist, if I'm not mistaken, is the ONLY character that can apply poisons mid combat that persist through full iterative attacks. Swift Apply sticky main hand poison, then off hand. Every hit poisons. The new feats give you the option to give your int bonus to poison DCs you make to.

The one thing an alchemist can do fairly easily though, is make money on the road. A well tended alchemy check can get STACKS of poisons made in an hour or less before 10th level.

With 3.5 books an alchemist is significantly more viable.
Knowledge devotion is both within theme and secures poisons/long bombs hitting targets on top of added damage.
Ravages can be crafted just like poisons and spammed all over your poison immune evil enemies.
The poison modification rules in Kingdoms of Kalimar can give you wickid poison DCs.
The +1 poison enhancement for weapons adds 1 to the DC of poisons per +1 on the weapon.

At the end of the day, the only enemy I'm useless against is a fire/force immune non evil enemy that's also immune to poisons.

[Paul H]

Hi

Heroe's Feast nerfs poison attacks, but not all the bomb attacks are magical, so they work in magic resistant areas.

Got a low level Gnome Mage in World of Warcraft. He's a Miner/Engineer, so I'm used to lobbing dynamite as a short range AoE attack. They're fire based, but not magical, so magic protections don't work. (Just Fire Resistance).

Thanks
Paul H

[Mojo_Rat]

We did a second darkness game and one of the charcters was an alchemist the game had to pause at level 8 but he was a self buffing bomb throwing poison dealing wonder.

The bombs do great consistant Damage and int he case of second darkness totally ignored SR. the stink bombs cloud bombs or whatever bombs often allowed the whole group to approach bad guyws.

toss a bomb, then group runs up while theres a cloud around the enmies whenthe cloud drops our fighter was in range of melee etc. You can make your Ac and such out he wazoo.

there also seems to be several diferent play styles offere din the infusion setup and the discoveries it looks like a good class from mye xperience.

[Dark_Juggernaut]

Hi

Heroe's Feast nerfs poison attacks, but not all the bomb attacks are magical, so they work in magic resistant areas.

I'm not sure I see your point. Do you mean the enemy NPCs the alchemist may encounter will be immune to poisons if they have eaten a heroes feast...?

[Gnaeus]

Anyone, Im afraid.

Casters are like them, but strictly better.

Poison is notoriously weak. Racial buffs and the like against it abound. And, of course, there's flat out immunities like with monk. I haven't looked at cloudkill in PF recently, but if they've kept the HD cap...it's relatively worthless at 20.

There are lots of mind-immune thing at 20 also, but beguilers still rock. You use your powers on the stuff they work on.


Melee characters may have their flaws, compared to casters, but they still are not too shabby at straight damage production. I would expect them to easily manage to contribute greater amounts of damage, and the sword doesn't round outta charges.

You might expect that, but it isn't necessarily true. An alchemist with a +4 Str Mutagen wielding a poisoned long spear, enlarged, hastened, with heroism from a potionis going to crush many melee at mid-high levels. The alchemist can handle all those self-buffs and more.

[AngellusMortus]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the potential Mr. Hyde aspect of the Alchemist. Mutagens can be brutal. Take a look at Feral Mutagen: 3 Natural Attacks, all Primary and therefore full BAB and full benefit from Power Attack. It being a mutagen, you also get +4 Alchemical Strength bonus, which will stack with every other STR bonus you might want to tack on. Finally, a quick glance at the 2nd Level extract "Alchemical Allocation," which lets you drink a potion then spit it back out and still get the benefits without using up the potion.

So, at level 4, you learn that extract and go buy yourself a Greater Magic Fang CL 20 potion for 3000 gold. Everyday when you wake up, you gargle that baby and spit it back out, making it an effectively infinite +5 Enhancement Bonus to Nat Attacks for 20 hours for the cost of one 2nd level extract. Right before combat, you shoot up with a Mutagen and go Feral. If you have a round of prep time, go ahead and slug an Enlarge Person extract too (not a huge deal if you don't.)

Assuming a 16 STR + 4 (Mutagen) + 2 (Enlarge) and having gargled your morning buff, you're now attacking 3 times with a d20+12 (3 BAB, 6 STR, 5 GMF, -1 Size, -1 Power Attack). These attacks are 2 claws at 1d8+13 each and one bite at 2d6+13. All of this at level 4, without reliance on anything but self buffs and a 3000g magical item. This becomes *slightly* less astounding at higher levels, since the extra attacks become less amazing, but the fact that the buffs from Mutagen keep getting higher combined with a full BAB class that also adds extra damage like Master Chymist makes it far from useless. Oh, and don't forget the swift action poisoning of your claws at level 6.

Melee Alchemists can be nasty.