PDA

View Full Version : Warlock Invocations 3.5



ZiggZagg
2010-07-08, 08:18 AM
Good morning everyone! I'm building a character for a campaign. He is going to be a 5th level warlock. Now the DM and I have worked out a special house ruled version of the Warlock that has changed it a bit. I get one invocation every level, with access to new grades kept the same. To balance it a bit, I got the lower base attack bonus and no access to the use magic device skill.

Now, my question is what invocations should I be taking? I want to gear him towards versatility and be ready and have as many options in combat as I can. I'm thinking invocations like Wall of Perilous Flame, Charm, Curse of Despair, Chilling Tentacles, and things of that nature. So, valued members of the boards, what invocations should I be looking to get and which ones should I try to avoid, keeping in mind I am getting one invocation every level, and plan on taking the Extra Invocation feat as often as possible (More of a roleplay reason than an optmization reasoning) Thanks in advance!

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 08:35 AM
First off, see if he'll let you take DFA invocations from Dragon Magic - they get some excellent ones and this will broaden your choices considerably.

The Warlock Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0) will help you decide which invocations are worthwhile.

Does the lower BAB carry into PrCs as well? Say if you entered Hellfire Warlock, would you gain 3/4 BAB there or still be 1/2?

Ferrin
2010-07-08, 08:54 AM
Ehm, no access to use magic device will hit you to hard. :smalleek:

What's the rest of the party?

PId6
2010-07-08, 09:04 AM
Now the DM and I have worked out a special house ruled version of the Warlock that has changed it a bit. I get one invocation every level, with access to new grades kept the same. To balance it a bit, I got the lower base attack bonus and no access to the use magic device skill.
No no no, that's not balanced at all. Losing UMD is almost like losing a third of the class, and will severely impact your versatility. The lower attack bonus, while not terrible, is kind of insult upon injury. The class should have had more invocations from the start; taking so much away in order to grant what it should have already had is a pretty raw deal.

Really, you should look into Dragonfire Adept instead, or at least try to get UMD back. Otherwise it's just too crippling.

Sliver
2010-07-08, 09:33 AM
To balance it a bit, I got the lower base attack bonus and no access to the use magic device skill.

You are aware that both of those fixes are actually really nerfs that you will feel? Really feel. You don't have high to hit, and if your major feature is hitting stuff with blasts, you need your bonus. Even if you aim at touch AC and don't have distance penalties, you suffer here. A lot of the actual class features of the warlock are based on UMD, I don't get how you can ditch that and think it's balancing. You just reduced your versatility, because invocations aren't the same. Some are good, some are worse, situational. Once you get the good, you get the situational bad for random fun, UMD is much more than that. What do you replace your take 10 on UMD feature with?

Vizzerdrix
2010-07-08, 09:35 AM
Quick Warlock related question: Can a warlock/fighter hate anything to gain by taking practiced Spellcaster, or will that feat not work for a warlock?

thompur
2010-07-08, 09:36 AM
No no no, that's not balanced at all. Losing UMD is almost like losing a third of the class, and will severely impact your versatility. The lower attack bonus, while not terrible, is kind of insult upon injury. The class should have had more invocations from the start; taking so much away in order to grant what it should have already had is a pretty raw deal.

Really, you should look into Dragonfire Adept instead, or at least try to get UMD back. Otherwise it's just too crippling.

I absolutely agree with ferrin and PId6! UMD is way too valuable to lose!
I might sacrifice some of the class features like detect magic, energy resistance, fast healing, or DR cold iron.

As to invocations, I had lots of fun with "Baleful Utterance".;-)

Also, I always have a hard time deciding between "Chilling Tentacles" and "Wallof Perilous Flame". Both serve the same basic purpose, and have their advantages. For me, it usually comes down to flavor.

I always get "Fell Flight", 'cause, well... flying is cool, and "Flee the Scene" because it's practically the only invocation that can directly help other party members. Let's face it, the Warlock is a pretty selfish class.

Prodan
2010-07-08, 09:37 AM
I'd go with the original warlock, personally.

thompur
2010-07-08, 09:38 AM
Quick Warlock related question: Can a warlock/fighter hate anything to gain by taking practiced Spellcaster, or will that feat not work for a warlock?

No, because Warlocks do not cast spells. I'd love to see a related feat for SLA's but alas...

thompur
2010-07-08, 09:39 AM
I'd go with the original warlock, personally.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!

they made me add all those '!"

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 09:50 AM
Well, first we'd have to know whether UMD matters. If there is no magic-mart in his DM's setting then losing it isn't as big an issue.

We'd also have to know whether he lost the Warlock's UMD-centric abilities as well, like Deceive Item. There are ways he can regain it as a class skill, or even just use Able Learner to reduce it to 1 point per rank.


Quick Warlock related question: Can a warlock/fighter hate anything to gain by taking practiced Spellcaster, or will that feat not work for a warlock?

It will work in terms of overcoming SR, but won't boost the damage from his blasts or anything like that.

PId6
2010-07-08, 10:38 AM
It will work in terms of overcoming SR, but won't boost the damage from his blasts or anything like that.
No, you can't even take it because warlock is not a spellcasting class.

ZiggZagg
2010-07-08, 10:42 AM
LoL guys trust me, I know the value of Use Magic Device. I'm the biggest power gamer in the group. I have been trying to get away from the tendency, hence me playing the Warlock. Taking the Use Magic Device skill out and the class abilities relating to it was MY idea. It is a purely roleplaying reason that I recommended to do so. Since it has risen such an issue, the idea is that my character is a spoiled rich kid who gained his powers through a vile ritual. It granted powerful abilities and fey powers in his blood (which is being interpreted by taking all the Fey feats from Complete Mage). He was a member of a cult to a dark lord, big evil guy of campaign, blah blah blah. ANYWAY, my character got selfish and killed all the leaders of the cult to re-establish their views to worship him rather than the distant and locked up evil entity. However, he didn't think it through and didn't learn the knowledge that the elders could have passed down to him, such as how to use wands, staffs, scrolls, etc. Also, since he's a spoiled little punk, he never learned how to fight, so hence the lower Base Attack Bonus. So, as you can see, pure roleplay based class changes. In trade for that, he is gaining a deep knowledge of his dark powers, thanks to his fey blood and the dark whispers that he has in his mind (which I'm helping with story again by taking the invocation that he has those whispers, granting him bonuses to knowledge skills)

SO! Now that we know why I am crippling the class more than it is already, can I just get some insight on what invocations can round the character out? Versatility and options are what I'm going for. I already have a list of the invocations I want, but the list is much larger than what I have room for LoL. So I'm just looking for opinions with what everyone thinks are good to use, as I have never played this class before. Thanks again for the help far and your continued assistance :-D

Keld Denar
2010-07-08, 10:55 AM
As noted, access to the DFA list in Dragon Magic would be pretty cool. The Chilling Fog spell in there is pretty brutal. The nice thing about Warlocks is that you can pretty much SPAM the spell, and if you do it right, your foe will be nearly permanently trapped in the fog, all the while taking 1d6 cold damage a round. Hope he dressed warmly, otherwise HE GONNA DAI!!!!

IdleMuse
2010-07-08, 11:03 AM
Well, first we'd have to know whether UMD matters. If there is no magic-mart in his DM's setting then losing it isn't as big an issue.

Aye to that; so many actual games won't have access to the plethora of magic items that are written into the DMG and thus are assumed to be accessible with full WBL. It's just often not the case in practice, and UMD is one of those skills that just becomes a bit sidelined if you can't buy all the wands you'd ever want.

But yeah, it'd be good to know if you get any good replacement class features for those that play off UMD.

PId6
2010-07-08, 11:10 AM
Well normally I'd recommend Eldritch Glaive, but considering the lower BAB, I guess not.

Invocations I like:

Least:

Baleful Utterance
Beguiling Influence
See the Unseen
Spiderwalk (until you get Fell Flight)
Summon Swarm (good early on)

Lesser:

Charm (only if you have good Cha)
Crawling Eye [CM] (because it's a crawling eye)
The Dead Walk
Disembodied Hand [CM] (because it's a disembodied hand)
Fell Flight
Flee the Scene
Ignore the Pyre [DM]
Voracious Dispelling
Walk Unseen

Greater:

Chilling Tentacles (so awesome)
Painful Slumber of Ages [CM]
Wall of Perilous Flame (decent)

Dark:

Dark Foresight
Impenetrable Barrier [DM]
Retributive Invisibility
Word of Changing (fun)


Aye to that; so many actual games won't have access to the plethora of magic items that are written into the DMG and thus are assumed to be accessible with full WBL. It's just often not the case in practice, and UMD is one of those skills that just becomes a bit sidelined if you can't buy all the wands you'd ever want.
On the other hand, warlocks can actually craft the wands they want, so as long as you have access to money, you can make use of UMD quite well.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 11:12 AM
No, you can't even take it because warlock is not a spellcasting class.

Actually you can still take it (as the only requirement is 4 ranks in Spellcraft) - it just wouldn't do anything by your reading. I think the intent was that it could apply to Warlocks though:


Many feats useful for spellcasters are equally useful for characters or creatures that employ invocations or spell-like abilities instead of spells.

ZiggZagg
2010-07-08, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the list, PId6. I have a lot of those written down as ones I should look at, so good to know I'm on the right track. I don't have my books by me, why Painful Slumber. I can't quite remember what that one does

PId6
2010-07-08, 11:37 AM
Thanks for the list, PId6. I have a lot of those written down as ones I should look at, so good to know I'm on the right track. I don't have my books by me, why Painful Slumber. I can't quite remember what that one does
It's a decent save-or-lose that you can spam since you can't rely on Eldritch Blast in combat nearly as much. The save DC is better than Word of Changing too, though it's not quite as funny and it's easier to resist thanks to being a compulsion spell.

Person_Man
2010-07-08, 11:50 AM
With poor BAB your standard Glaivelock (Eldritch Glaive, Dragon Magic) is out, which is a shame, because it's the Warlock's best option. A Binder/Warlock/Hellfire Warlock would still work well though, especially with Vile feats. But assuming you want to go strait Warlock 5, I would go with:

Summon Swarm: Cast this on the first round of most combats to get some debuff action going.
Frightful Blast: Pair with Fear inducing Feat such as Frightful Presence or Dark Whispers, and you can Frighten enemies.
Baleful Utterance: Endless Shatter has many uses.
Beguiling Influence: Makes you a useful party face.
Spider Walk: There is no reason for you to be standing anywhere near your enemies. Have this on continuously, and walk on the ceiling (which also avoids traps) and as far away from enemies as possible.


As you gain levels you'll want to swap all of them out (except Baleful Utterance) for better things, and you'll get more Invocations on top of them. I suggest:

The Dead Walk: Animate Dead, replacing Summon Swarm.
Fell Flight: Flight, replacing Spider Climb.
Voracious Dispelling: Casters are always your worst enemies.
Walk the Unseen: Summons are not considered attacked. Walk around Invisible all of the time, Summon as needed, avoid direct attacks until the last few rounds of combat.


You won't be seeing Greater Invocations until level 11, so it's not something you need to worry about right now.