Ultimate save-or-die caster?

[Myth]

What are your thoughts for an ultimate FOD or Disintegrate user? What PrCs should he take? Or are there better save-or-dies than these two?

[Optimystik]

What are your thoughts for an ultimate FOD or Disintegrate user? What PrCs should he take? Or are there better save-or-dies than these two?

Disintegrate is not an SoD - it's a blasting spell that makes you hard to raise if it kills you.

FoD is a SoD - i.e. it can kill you without dropping your hit point total to zero if you fail your save.

Some of the best ones are the Blasphemy line (AoE, and CL is easier to pump than save DCs.)

[PId6]

Better save or die: Glitterdust, or Enervation (minus the save part).

For PrCs, Fatespinner is pretty useful (just don't take the 5th level). Otherwise, pretty much anything that's good normally would be good for a SoD caster.

[Mastikator]

Color Spray, sleep are AoE SoD available at level 1.

[gbprime]

I'm a fan of Flesh to Salt (and Mass Flesh to Salt) from Sandstorm. Dru/Wiz 5 (and 7). It inflicts no-save, untyped damage, and if that damage is 50% or more of the target's current HP, they must save or petrify. (Does care about spell resistance, though.) Works amazingly well if you can Empower and/or Maximize spells on the cheap.

[Optimystik]

Better save or die: Glitterdust, or Enervation (minus the save part).

Those are actually SoS (or more accurately for the latter, No-Save-Just-Suck.) Blindness is not a "hard" enough debuff to be a true SoD - you need something that prevents actions completely, such as unconsciousness, paralysis or (of course) death.

A Blind or level-drained creature can still flee, break the macguffin, kill the hostage princess they are holding etc.

[Myth]

Considering i went for an Enervation Incantatrix pimp I'm on board for that. But I was considering a fun way to make a troublesome PC disappear (should he become troublesome) from a battle.

Blasphemy is better then Finger of Death of Wail of the Banshee? Somehow I had imagined a Necromancer/Incantatrix/Something to really up those spells some. Better Caster Level up the DC for that save and such. Maybe getting Archmage to fill in the gaps and to get +1 CL.

[Ashiel]

I've always been fond of flesh to stone and baleful polymorph, and interestingly polymorph any object (since you can turn enemies into all sorts of harmless things). Disintegrate is also a hard-hitting blasting spell with utility.

Now, what do all of these spells have in common? They're all Transmutation.

20th level Human wizard with 15 base Int + 5 level + 5 inherent + 5-6 enhancement = 30-31 Int without cheese.

Take Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus
Your Save DCs are now 22 + spell level. If you started with a higher Int (say 20), then that's 25 + spell level. If you took Spellcasting Prodigy, then it's 26 + spell level. So your save or dies begin at 5th level with Baleful Polymorph at DC 31, and go up to DC 35 with Highten spell.

Again, assuming no cheese.
Now with some metamagic feats, this can get fun. The chain-spell metamagic feat can let you target large numbers of enemies with a SoD if you accept a -4 penalty on the save DC against additional targets; which is entirely awesome for creating entire rooms worth of statues. :smallbiggrin:

The biggest thing you must remember about save or dies is they're far less effective against creatures with high HD and Divine Grace type capabilities; so have your party and/or minions debuff enemies as hard as they can. Enervation and Life Drinking weapons (or really anything that inflicts negative levels) is wonderful for this. Inflicting the shaken condition gives a -2 to all saves; and so forth.

A generic very old Red Dragon (CR 21) has a +25 fortitude save, which would be a 45% chance of him failing versus a heightened flesh to stone, baleful polymorph, or polymorph any object.

Anyway, I'm rambling now. Too early in the morning. :smalltongue:

[Optimystik]

Blasphemy is better then Finger of Death of Wail of the Banshee? Somehow I had imagined a Necromancer/Incantatrix/Something to really up those spells some. Better Caster Level up the DC for that save and such. Maybe getting Archmage to fill in the gaps and to get +1 CL.

Caster Level has nothing to do with save DCs. It's 10 + spell level + ability modifier.

Caster Level only matters for overcoming SR, being dispelled/countered, duration, range, damage... things like that.

[Ashiel]

Caster Level has nothing to do with save DCs. It's 10 + spell level + ability modifier.

Caster Level only matters for overcoming SR, being dispelled/countered, duration, range, damage... things like that.

Optimystik is correct. The reason the Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy-Word/Word-of-Chaos spells are such awesome die spells is because they're no-save effects based entirely on your caster level; so if those that would be affected are lower than X caster level, they are going to get railed. It actually has nothing to do with their save DC.

[Prodan]

Optimystik is correct. The reason the Blasphemy/Dictum/Holy-Word/Word-of-Chaos spells are such awesome die spells is because they're no-save effects based entirely on your caster level; so if those that would be affected are lower than X caster level, they are going to get railed. It actually has nothing to do with their save DC.

The only thing you have to worry about is SR, but since you'll be pumping CL anyways...

[Escheton]

The best one uses stacking sickened, shaken and paladin of tyrany 3 (so works best in gestalt) to debuff their saves by 6 before even getting to lobbing items that trash fort saves and curses.

[Keld Denar]

Necrotic Skullbomb in Champions of Ruin is a 5th level swift action AoE Enervation. Chuck one out immediately prior to your big KILL KILL KILL spell for additional debuffage.

Really, the best thing for a dedicated SoD specialist is a cohort. Get a Hexblade4/PallyofrTyranny3/Binder1 or something, with Dreadful Wrath, Imperious Command, and Improved Binding. On the charge, he'll impose a -6 penalty to all saves from Cowering due to Dreadful Wrath + Imperious Command, another -2 from Aura of Dispair, another -2 from Foculor's Aura of Sadness, another -2 from Hexblade's Dark Companion ACF (PHBII), and if it fails the save vs his swift action Hex, another -2. Thats a -14 on saves. Its like your cohort just buffed your Int by 28 points WRT your save DCs. If that doesn't get the job done, you're Doing it Wrong(TM).

[quiet1mi]

Never thought of the Binder 1 for the master debuffer, I will look into that...

[Private-Prinny]

I may be mistaken, but I think I remember a metamagic feat from some obscure sourcebook that treated the target of a spell as auto-failing the save, but for an obscene slot adjustment. Go go Incantatrix?

[PId6]

I may be mistaken, but I think I remember a metamagic feat from some obscure sourcebook that treated the target of a spell as auto-failing the save, but for an obscene slot adjustment. Go go Incantatrix?
Irresistible Spell, from Kingdoms of Kalamar (ie third party). +4 meta adjustment to remove the save. Massively broken.

[Escheton]

Focular is a lvl 3 vestige. A lvl 1 binder with the improved binder feat counts as a lvl 3 binder in regard to what lvl vestige you can bind too. Which would make it lvl 2 vestiges...

[Douglas]

Irresistible Spell, from Kingdoms of Kalamar (ie third party). +4 meta adjustment to remove the save. Massively broken.
Indeed. Irresistible Phantasmal Killer for an 8th level slot, anyone? And then you add metamagic reducers... With just one spell and one metamagic to worry about, getting it down from +4 to +0 is not hard, so you get no-save-just-die for a 4th level slot.

[gbprime]

This really needs to be reworded. Add the following.

"No GM in their right mind would ever allow a cheap-metamagic caster to take..."

Irresistible Spell, from Kingdoms of Kalamar (ie third party). +4 meta adjustment to remove the save. Massively broken.

[Keld Denar]

I wouldn't use it on Phantasmal Killer. Its got both the [Fear] and [Mind Affecting] subtypes. Definitely go with Baleful Polymorph. Its not [Death] and since its Irresistable, you can go with forms that would normally impose a -4 on the save DC, like Goldfish.

Auto-goldfish!

[Ernir]

Focalor's aura can be gotten through the binding feats, no Binder levels required.

Tainted Scholar is the best you can get for SoDs, I think. Combine with some ability to force the opponent to reroll in case he gets a nat-20, and he doesn't stand much of a chance.

[Tshern]

Focalor's aura can be gotten through the binding feats, no Binder levels required.

Tainted Scholar is the best you can get for SoDs, I think. Combine with some ability to force the opponent to reroll in case he gets a nat-20, and he doesn't stand much of a chance.
The question is do you really want to go Tainted Scholar.

[Prodan]

So, Tainted Scholar/Fatespinner then?

Hey, has anyone actually figured out a formula to calculate the bonus spells you get from having an incredibly high Taint score?

[candycorn]

I've figured out a formula for ability scores and ability modifiers. If taint counts as either of those, then use the following:

( { [ (Ability Score -10)/2 ] - (Spell Level) } / 4 ) +1 = Bonus Spells for (Spell Level)

and:

{ [ (Ability Modifier) - (Spell Level) ] / 4 } +1 = Bonus Spells for (Spell Level)

Both work for any ability score/modifier that allows spellcasting, as long as you always round down to the nearest whole number.

So, let's take it crazy with a casting stat of 100.

Level 1: 12 Bonus spells
Level 2: 11 Bonus spells
Level 3: 11 Bonus spells
Level 4: 11 Bonus spells
Level 5: 11 Bonus spells
Level 6: 10 Bonus spells
Level 7: 10 Bonus spells
Level 8: 10 Bonus spells
Level 9: 10 Bonus spells

[kabof]

Hexblade 4/Warlock 6/Eldritch Theurge 10
Use some Illumian shenanigans to qualify to Eldritch Theurge with Hexblade 4.

You have:
- Dark Companion (-2),
- Focalor (feat, -2),
- Curse of Despair (-4),
- Fearsome Light Armor (-2),
- Baleful Polymorhp.

The good thing is that you cand do this all day long, as many times as you want.

[okpokalypse]

The only thing you have to worry about is SR, but since you'll be pumping CL anyways...

Or a deaf enemy being immune :)

[Seffbasilisk]

+1 to Fatespinner, but I'd take that fifth level. Sure, you lose a CL, and it only works on things with HD = to yours or lower, but boosting an ally, or really thumping an enemy? That +10/-10 is damn powerful.

Besides, don't negative levels reduce your effective HD? Drop their levels, and they start taking penalties on saves as well IIRC.

[Keld Denar]

You could also have a Bard hit you with Inspire Greatness, which buffs your HD. Take Practiced Spellcaster (even if your CL = your normal HD), and you're CL will go up 4 points if a Bard with Words of Creation does an Inspire Greatness on you. Thats always kinda nice, right?

[Wings of Peace]

Tainted Scholar AND Subverted Psion. To allow for total taint maximization.

[Prodan]

Or a deaf enemy being immune :)

You're a cleric. Restore their hearing and proceed to make them suffer.

[Harris the Ford]

is a flesh-to-stone'd character still considered an animate object or would disintegrate be able to wipe him out w/o a save as per "disintegrates 10cu. ft. inanimate material"?

[Keld Denar]

Yes and yes, although burning a spell when you can just smash the statue with a club seems a little...much.