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ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 10:14 AM
Hi all, I'm new here (I've lurked for a little while, though), and I was hoping some of you might be willing to critique a Psychic Warrior build I've been working on. It's not currently for use in a game, it's just something I've been toying with for fun, and would like to use at some point.

Anyway, here's the build:

Character Build - Psychic Warrior
Race: Human

Psychic Warrior 20
HD: 20d8
HP: 8+19d8+20*Con. Mod.

Attributes (32 Point-Buy):
Stregth: 14
Dexterity: 12
Constitution: 14
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 16
Charisma: 8

Skills
Skill Points: [(2+Int. Mod)*4]+[(2+Int. Mod)*19]+23
Skill Ranks:
Autohypnosis: 13
Concentration: 23
Hide:
Intimidate: 23
Knowledge (Psionics): 23
Knowledge (Dungeoneering): 11
Listen: 11
Move Silently:
Spot: 11

Feats/Class Features:
Level 1: Able Learner, Earth Sense, Psicrystal Affinity (Nimble)
Level 2: ACF [Mantled Warrior (Light and Darkness Mantle)]
Level 3: Earth Power
Level 5: Link Power
Level 6: Psionic Meditation
Level 8: Improved Natural Attack (Claw)
Level 9: Expanded Knowledge [Share Pain]
Level 11: Quick Reconnoiter
Level 12: Expanded Knowledge [Time Hop]
Level 14: Expanded Knowledge [Psychic Reformation]
Level 15: Psionic Body
Level 17: Expanded Knowledge [Psionic Lion's Charge]
Level 18: Tunnel Fighting
Level 20: Undermountain Tactics

Powers:

Level 1:
Expansion
Claws of the Beast
Inertial Armor
Offensive Precognition
Bite of the Wolf
Detect Psionics
Vigor

Level 2:
Hustle
Detect Hostile Intent
Dimension Swap
Energy Adaptation, Specified
Wall Walker
Psionic Lion's Charge**
Share Pain**

Level 3:
Concealing Amorpha, Greater
Dimension Slide
Claws of the Vampire
Time Hop**

Level 4:
Steadfast Perception
Freedom of Movement, Psionic
Psychic Reformation**

Level 5:
N/A

Level 6:
Form of Doom
Mindblank, Personal
Dispelling Buffer

Powers with a double asterisk after them are being EK'd.

Basically, the background I have for him is that his village (a small village in a rural area) was attacked by mindflayers, anyone not slain on the field captured and dragged back underground. My character was one of those captured, but he managed to escape before becoming lost in the underground tunnels. He was found by a raiding party that was tracking that illithid group. He was offered the opportunity to join them, finding out that they were from the Society of the Sanctified Mind (I'm not sure if I want to incorporate that PrC into the build or not, or if I want to rework it to include Slayer). He was offered the opportunity to join the Society, he accepted, now he travels the world searching for signs of evil psionic creatures, etc.

Mechanically, he's designed to be able to fight in underground areas as well as on the surface. Obviously, ranged attacks and anti-magic/null-psionics fields will be an issue for him, but I figure I can get a bow and some kind of melee weapon, maybe even one of those bows that can also be used as a quarterstaff (elvencraft, IIRC), to deal with ranged attacks and null psionics fields. Old versions of the build also saw the use of the Up the Walls feat, but I figured that Wall Walker was better for maximizing mobility in a cave system. A part of me thinks Compression might be useful to work in somehow, to help deal with the potential for small tunnels and the like when he's underground.

So, what does everyone think? Good? Bad? Ugly? Lobster? Thanks for reading through all of this, and for any advice or feedback you care to give.

gallagher
2010-07-08, 10:29 AM
its a decent build, and has only a few things that would improve it totally.

the first is the obligatory tashlatora (sp?) monk. take your first 2 levels in monk, and with 2 feats you are now stacking your monk levels with your psychic warrior levels for all your monk goodies. you are already focusing on your claw attacks (say in your feats)

the second is a PrC. you would benefit from is Warmind. especially since it gives you the ability to attack two squares at once.

third, you have a few powers that do very similar things. that, and higher level psychic warrior powers arent really that grand (outside a few, big fan of Form of Doom) if you instead take lower level powers that you are spending feats on learning, you can use those feats to take maneuvers/stances. if you play this character, you could ask if you could use unarmed swordsage instead of monk but still use tashlatora for the unarmed goodies, still get wisdom but you get light armor, and your IL will be much better.

thats all i have for now

EDIT: in the event that it is not a campaign big on psionics (i.e. very few psionic creatures or at least not optimized ones) you can drop things like dispelling buffer and detect psionics. detect psionics isnt even that necessary. many DMs make psionics and arcane magic work the same way so a dispell magic would work against you too. in that case, the party wizard should be providing you those defenses. being a martial character without full BAB means that you need to focus on offense. look into some setting sun maneuvers if you can spare the feats.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 10:52 AM
Props for going Mantled Warrior, but I question the usefulness of Light & Darkness. You can get Darkvision via items and extending its range isn't very useful because you are clearly melee-oriented. The powers in that mantle are pretty subpar as well. (Elfsight? Ick.)

Besides items, you can also EK Touchsight, or just have your psicrystal share what it sees with you - it can see in the dark just fine. Now you have room for a better mantle.

There are much better melee mantles out there - Justice, Guardian, Pain & Suffering, Time, Freedom etc. have great powers and even better granted abilities. The right mantle can also replace one or more of your Expanded Knowledges. Any of the above can fit your backstory as well.

Then, use one of your feats to Tap Mantle on the Natural World Mantle - this will grant you Metamorphosis at level 10, which you can then share with your psicrystal to turn him into a fighting construct (like a golem) - you now have a flanking buddy and cover twice as much ground, while you yourself can turn into some truly fearsome critters like a War Troll or Hydra. (You can then spend another feat on Metamorphic Transfer to pick up a supernatural ability of the form you choose.)

I saw you were considering a dip in either Slayer or Sanctified Mind - definitely go for it, as either will get you up to 16 BAB (granting your fourth attack.) Do you use the Fractional BAB rules from UA?

I advise against War Mind - it does not advance the ML of your base class, and nothing allows its own manifester level to stack with yours.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 11:28 AM
Props for going Mantled Warrior, but I question the usefulness of Light & Darkness. You can get Darkvision via items and extending its range isn't very useful because you are clearly melee-oriented. The powers in that mantle are pretty subpar as well. (Elfsight? Ick.)

Besides items, you can also EK Touchsight, or just have your psicrystal share what it sees with you - it can see in the dark just fine. Now you have room for a better mantle.

There are much better melee mantles out there - Justice, Guardian, Pain & Suffering, Time, Freedom etc. have great powers and even better granted abilities. The right mantle can also replace one or more of your Expanded Knowledges. Any of the above can fit your backstory as well.

The mantle was exclusively for the Darkvision, as the powers within that mantle are, as you said, subpar. Of those mantles you mentioned, I like Time, but even with that mantle, I don't have any more room for new powers. Part of why Time Hop is being EK'd instead of me taking the Time Mantle and learning it normally.


Then, use one of your feats to Tap Mantle on the Natural World Mantle - this will grant you Metamorphosis at level 10, which you can then share with your psicrystal to turn him into a fighting construct (like a golem) - you now have a flanking buddy and cover twice as much ground, while you yourself can turn into some truly fearsome critters like a War Troll or Hydra. (You can then spend another feat on Metamorphic Transfer to pick up a supernatural ability of the form you choose.)

I saw you were considering a dip in either Slayer or Sanctified Mind - definitely go for it, as either will get you up to 16 BAB (granting your fourth attack.) Do you use the Fractional BAB rules from UA?

I advise against War Mind - it does not advance the ML of your base class, and nothing allows its own manifester level to stack with yours.

I don't want Metamorphosis. If I was planning to use that, it would have been on my EK list, or I would have used the Tap Mantle feat to get it. I realize it's incredibly powerful, I just don't want to use it. No flavor reasons, just personal conviction. If I wanted a full shapeshifter, I'd play a druid or an egoist. Besides, in order to continue using the Metamorphosis that I share with it, my Psicrystal would have to stay within five feet of me. The one downside.

16 BAB isn't worth it, as I don't get more attacks with my claws or other natural weapons. The +1 to hit is nice, but I'm not totally sure it's worth the loss of one ML, and therefore one power and several power points. Slayer would be worth it, especially to go all the way for the sweet cerebral blind and cerebral immunity abilities, but that robs me of three bonus feats, and chews up one of my remaining feat slots. Part of why I'm not sure about using either. And no, we don't use the fractional BAB.

Also, I agree about not using War Mind, because of how many MLs and PPs I'd be losing. Not to mention access to my highest level powers.


its a decent build, and has only a few things that would improve it totally.

the first is the obligatory tashlatora (sp?) monk. take your first 2 levels in monk, and with 2 feats you are now stacking your monk levels with your psychic warrior levels for all your monk goodies. you are already focusing on your claw attacks (say in your feats)

Can't do that, as I don't have the Eberron books myself, and I can't guarantee they'll be available in whatever game I get to use this guy in. Even if they were, I don't want to lose Able Learner, as that would knock my skills down several notches.


the second is a PrC. you would benefit from is Warmind. especially since it gives you the ability to attack two squares at once.

Why in the name of...? What does War Mind offer besides a net loss of PPs, a reduced ML, and several abilities that aren't nearly good enough to make up for the losses? If I were building a soulknife, Warmind would be a no-brainer. It's not so good for a PsyWar, however.


third, you have a few powers that do very similar things. that, and higher level psychic warrior powers arent really that grand (outside a few, big fan of Form of Doom) if you instead take lower level powers that you are spending feats on learning, you can use those feats to take maneuvers/stances. if you play this character, you could ask if you could use unarmed swordsage instead of monk but still use tashlatora for the unarmed goodies, still get wisdom but you get light armor, and your IL will be much better.

thats all i have for now

EDIT: in the event that it is not a campaign big on psionics (i.e. very few psionic creatures or at least not optimized ones) you can drop things like dispelling buffer and detect psionics. detect psionics isnt even that necessary. many DMs make psionics and arcane magic work the same way so a dispell magic would work against you too. in that case, the party wizard should be providing you those defenses. being a martial character without full BAB means that you need to focus on offense. look into some setting sun maneuvers if you can spare the feats.

What powers do I have that are very similar in effect? And the only power that I'm EK'ing that I could otherwise learn is Psionic Lion's Charge, and I'm debating dropping Bite of the Wolf to make room for it. Although I could drop Detect Psionics...

Additionally, which of my high level powers aren't good enough, and what would you recommend replacing them with?

Thanks for the help so far.

gallagher
2010-07-08, 11:30 AM
natural world mantle is indeed the best mantle out there. i have only done the mantled warrior route once and i took that one with Time. it led to many :smallbiggrin:s. all the other psychic warriors i have played were soulbound weapon guys, which is also pretty good if you arent going the unarmed/natural weapon route.

yeah, warmind doesnt progress your ML, but it does give you BAB. while your ML does give you options as far as how much you can augment your manifestations, you would be taking practiced manifester at that point to increase your ML, which will help decrease the loss of MLs to warmind (only take it to level 5). the insight bonuses to strength/con and AC, plus DR-1 can really help.

its up to personal preference at that point

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 11:39 AM
natural world mantle is indeed the best mantle out there. i have only done the mantled warrior route once and i took that one with Time. it led to many :smallbiggrin:s. all the other psychic warriors i have played were soulbound weapon guys, which is also pretty good if you arent going the unarmed/natural weapon route.

yeah, warmind doesnt progress your ML, but it does give you BAB. while your ML does give you options as far as how much you can augment your manifestations, you would be taking practiced manifester at that point to increase your ML, which will help decrease the loss of MLs to warmind (only take it to level 5). the insight bonuses to strength/con and AC, plus DR-1 can really help.

its up to personal preference at that point

The insight bonuses are nice, but the DR isn't. Biofeedback will give me more DR for less overall investment, especially if I get my hands on a dorje or some powerstones or the like. And for BAB there's SM and IS, which do give ML, so... yeah.

And seriously, if my powers are duplicating each other, lemme know. I'd love to be able to drop one or two and work some other runners-up in to the build.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 11:52 AM
The mantle was exclusively for the Darkvision, as the powers within that mantle are, as you said, subpar. Of those mantles you mentioned, I like Time, but even with that mantle, I don't have any more room for new powers. Part of why Time Hop is being EK'd instead of me taking the Time Mantle and learning it normally.

Sure you do. You tossed your three 5th-level powers to pick up Detect Psionics, Detect Hostile Intent, and Inertial Armor - none of which have much mileage at high levels. Time Hop and Anticipatory Strike (both in the Time Mantle) definitely do.

Detect Psionics - the party wizard/psion should be doing this, not you.
Detect Hostile Intent - Mind-Affecting tag, do not want.
Inertial Armor - does not stack with your real armor, do not want.

You're much better off getting situational powers like that from dorjes/power stones, or better yet not at all. You now have a third 5th-level or lower power open, as well as an open feat.

Secondly - You're right that BAB doesn't give you iteratives with your natural attacks, but Bite of the Wolf is tacked onto the end of your full attack sequence - it doesn't replace your normal weapon attacks. So full BAB will benefit you. Further, BotW advances as you level just as the claws do.

Claws of the Beast does replace your normal attack routine - and this is a problem, because they don't overcome any kind of damage reduction. So full attack + bite is better than Claws + Bite, because you can grab a +5 adamantine sword, or a +3 cold iron spiked chain etc.


I don't want Metamorphosis.

Fair enough.


What powers do I have that are very similar in effect? And the only power that I'm EK'ing that I could otherwise learn is Psionic Lion's Charge, and I'm debating dropping Bite of the Wolf to make room for it. Although I could drop Detect Psionics...

As above, do not drop Bite of the Wolf. Drop the claws instead.


Additionally, which of my high level powers aren't good enough, and what would you recommend replacing them with?

Thanks for the help so far.

Form of Doom is great - the tentacle attacks get added to your full attack routine, AND you get your Bite of the Wolf on top of that, AND Expansion boosts the whole mess to literally ridiculous proportions.

I'm iffy on Dispelling Buffer - you can get basically the same benefit simply by boosting your Manifester Level, which can again be done via items. And again, this is the kind of power you might want from an item since you won't be up against baddies that dispel all the time. (Disclaimer: this is campaign-dependent.)

Mind Blank is of course awesomesauce, though depending on the casters in your party you might not need your own.

To summarize: Any "What powers/spells should I take?" question always has the same answering question. Who else is in your party?

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 12:30 PM
Sure you do. You tossed your three 5th-level powers to pick up Detect Psionics, Detect Hostile Intent, and Inertial Armor - none of which have much mileage at high levels. Time Hop and Anticipatory Strike (both in the Time Mantle) definitely do.

Detect Psionics - the party wizard/psion should be doing this, not you.
Detect Hostile Intent - Mind-Affecting tag, do not want.
Inertial Armor - does not stack with your real armor, do not want.

You're much better off getting situational powers like that from dorjes/power stones, or better yet not at all. You now have a third 5th-level or lower power open, as well as an open feat.

I'll give you the detects, but the Inertial Armor is there precisely because I'm not going to be investing in armor that provides even vaguely useful AC bonuses. Probably +1 Chain Shirt, with armor abilities taking up the rest of the enhancement space. IA is on there to let me pump up my AC, while spending the rest of my gold on either useful armor abilities, or useful gear.

One way or another, that opens up two power slots, less one for Time Hop due to swapping my mantle to Time from L&D, and possibly also less the other for Temporal Acceleration. Or for Psionic Lion's Charge, which in turn opens another feat slot, on top of the one opened by me not having to EK Time Hop any more.


Secondly - You're right that BAB doesn't give you iteratives with your natural attacks, but Bite of the Wolf is tacked onto the end of your full attack sequence - it doesn't replace your normal weapon attacks. So full BAB will benefit you. Further, BotW advances as you level just as the claws do.

Claws of the Beast does replace your normal attack routine - and this is a problem, because they don't overcome any kind of damage reduction. So full attack + bite is better than Claws + Bite, because you can grab a +5 adamantine sword, or a +3 cold iron spiked chain etc.

I fail to see how occasionally having DR issues is a real problem. DR/Magic isn't an issue, as I'll be acquiring an Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as possible. DR/Silver isn't an issue either, as Silversheen is pocket change.

The other Material-based DRs could be an issue, but I've never seen a character maintain two or three weapons made from different materials. When a monster with DR/(Some Special Material) crops up, the answer is to find a way around the DR if you don't have any ability to overcome that DR. Also, I don't see why special salves that simulate the effects of the other special materials couldn't be made, in the same vein as Silversheen. Besides, given how much damage I can get the claws to do, most DR won't be an issue.


As above, do not drop Bite of the Wolf. Drop the claws instead.

But... I like my claws...:smallfrown:


Form of Doom is great - the tentacle attacks get added to your full attack routine, AND you get your Bite of the Wolf on top of that, AND Expansion boosts the whole mess to literally ridiculous proportions.

I'm iffy on Dispelling Buffer - you can get basically the same benefit simply by boosting your Manifester Level, which can again be done via items. And again, this is the kind of power you might want from an item since you won't be up against baddies that dispel all the time. (Disclaimer: this is campaign-dependent.)

Mind Blank is of course awesomesauce, though depending on the casters in your party you might not need your own.

To summarize: Any "What powers/spells should I take?" question always has the same answering question. Who else is in your party?

To answer: I have no idea who would be in this party. Like I said in the OP, this is just a build I'm toying with, not something i=I'm planning to use in a game I have lined up. If I had a game lined up, I might be planning to use it, but as it stands, this is just a build for me to have fun with.

EDIT: Oh, and for what it's worth, this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988) is what gave me the idea for a PsyWar who fights with Claws of the Beast and other natural attacks in the first place. Well, that build and the King of Smack.

Keld Denar
2010-07-08, 01:03 PM
Since you have a feat slot open from shuffling your powers around, consider changing your race to Elan or Synad. This does 2 things. A) Moar PP!!!!! Always better than less PP. B) You are now an Aberration. What does that mean? That means you now qualify for RAPID STRIKE from the Draconomicon, something a human does not. Rapid Strike gives you your 2nd iterative attack with BOTH of your claws. You could also take Improved Rapid Strike to get your 3rd+ iteratives, but at that point it starts becoming a rather obscure chance to hit, so it might not be worth it.

Just a thought.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 01:08 PM
EDIT: Oh, and for what it's worth, this build (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2926.msg97988#msg97988) is what gave me the idea for a PsyWar who fights with Claws of the Beast and other natural attacks in the first place. Well, that build and the King of Smack.

I think I see the problem.

You missed the key point of Lycan's build - it focuses on metamorphosis, which you don't want. He only uses Claws of the Beast in his monster forms (e.g. Hydra). Outside of it, he relies on the full attack routine of his +1 deep crystal elvencraft suppression quarterstaff.

This is because the Claws get added to his other natural attacks. You won't be metamorphosing, ergo there is no reason to replace your weapon with Claws of the Beast.

Note also that his build does not wear armor - again, because he spends 90% of combat as a hideous monster with massive NA bonuses (or a cute, tiny and nigh-impossible-to-hit fey). You don't want to do that and that's fine, but there will be holes in your build as a result.


I'll give you the detects, but the Inertial Armor is there precisely because I'm not going to be investing in armor that provides even vaguely useful AC bonuses. Probably +1 Chain Shirt, with armor abilities taking up the rest of the enhancement space. IA is on there to let me pump up my AC, while spending the rest of my gold on either useful armor abilities, or useful gear.

Fair enough, though with your low Dex (and the fact that you'll be spending most fights larger than the broad side of a cathedral) I'd consider going with heavier armor.


One way or another, that opens up two power slots, less one for Time Hop due to swapping my mantle to Time from L&D, and possibly also less the other for Temporal Acceleration. Or for Psionic Lion's Charge, which in turn opens another feat slot, on top of the one opened by me not having to EK Time Hop any more.

I'd grab Anticipatory Strike over Temporal Acceleration personally. The uses are endless - Buff yourself and run over, then full attack, Full attack twice before the target gets a turn etc. And you're not shaken afterward either.


I fail to see how occasionally having DR issues is a real problem. DR/Magic isn't an issue, as I'll be acquiring an Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as possible. DR/Silver isn't an issue either, as Silversheen is pocket change.

The other Material-based DRs could be an issue, but I've never seen a character maintain two or three weapons made from different materials. When a monster with DR/(Some Special Material) crops up, the answer is to find a way around the DR if you don't have any ability to overcome that DR. Also, I don't see why special salves that simulate the effects of the other special materials couldn't be made, in the same vein as Silversheen. Besides, given how much damage I can get the claws to do, most DR won't be an issue.

But you can get a weapon to do tons of damage as well, plus add on lots of enhancements and secondary effects (like Suppression, and Align Weapon) that your claws can't get. You can also get much larger reach than with claws, even expanded, again because you are foregoing metamorphosis.


To answer: I have no idea who would be in this party. Like I said in the OP, this is just a build I'm toying with, not something i=I'm planning to use in a game I have lined up. If I had a game lined up, I might be planning to use it, but as it stands, this is just a build for me to have fun with.

Then I'll assume worst case scenario (i.e. solo adventure) and advise you to hang onto Mind Blank. But you still have standard WBL right?

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 01:09 PM
Since you have a feat slot open from shuffling your powers around, consider changing your race to Elan or Synad. This does 2 things. A) Moar PP!!!!! Always better than less PP. B) You are now an Aberration. What does that mean? That means you now qualify for RAPID STRIKE from the Draconomicon, something a human does not. Rapid Strike gives you your 2nd iterative attack with BOTH of your claws. You could also take Improved Rapid Strike to get your 3rd+ iteratives, but at that point it starts becoming a rather obscure chance to hit, so it might not be worth it.

Just a thought.

I considered that, but that would also mean dropping my Able Learner feat, which knocks my skills down to significantly lower levels, and they're low enough as it is. Besides, I'm not trying to build the King of Smack, I just want a Psychic Warrior who's good at fighting with natural weapons.

Keld Denar
2010-07-08, 01:14 PM
You are a straight classed PsyWar...what you you using Able Learner for? Crossclass ranks in non-class skills?

And full-on King of Smack means having 64d6 claw attacks. You aren't anywhere close to that. The extra couple attacks are generally a good thing, especially if you DO have issues with DR.

Also, for gear, a great item would be a Ring of Adamantine Touch, for 8000g in the MIC. Golems and constructs are the biggest pain in the buttocks for natural weapons guys. This makes it not a problem.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 01:39 PM
I think I see the problem.

You missed the key point of Lycan's build - it focuses on metamorphosis, which you don't want. He only uses Claws of the Beast in his monster forms (e.g. Hydra). Outside of it, he relies on the full attack routine of his +1 deep crystal elvencraft suppression quarterstaff.

This is because the Claws get added to his other natural attacks. You won't be metamorphosing, ergo there is no reason to replace your weapon with Claws of the Beast.

Note also that his build does not wear armor - again, because he spends 90% of combat as a hideous monster with massive NA bonuses (or a cute, tiny and nigh-impossible-to-hit fey). You don't want to do that and that's fine, but there will be holes in your build as a result.
Be that as it may, I still want to use my claws. Are you saying that a build that focuses on Claws of the Beast needs Metamorphosis to be viable? I realize this build won't be nearly as powerful as Lycan's, but that's just standard for not using Metamorphosis. I just want to know if my build is viable. I realize that I'll have problems with some forms of DR, and that I'll have PP issues, but the PP issues can be fixed with items (I'm thinking Manifester Sling Bullets for a number of my powers), and most of the DR issues can be overcome by some form of item or spell/power.



Fair enough, though with your low Dex (and the fact that you'll be spending most fights larger than the broad side of a cathedral) I'd consider going with heavier armor.
If there's one thing I've learned form my time lurking here, Brilliant Gameologists, and the Wizards CO boards, it's this: I don't care what level you are, you will take hits. It's unavoidable. Hence other measures to minimize the odds of hits being able to kill me, such as Greater Concealing Amorpha to provide miss chance, and Vigor/Share Pain to give me a ton of Temp. HP.



I'd grab Anticipatory Strike over Temporal Acceleration personally. The uses are endless - Buff yourself and run over, then full attack, Full attack twice before the target gets a turn etc. And you're not shaken afterward either.
True, and I did forget about the shaken aspect of Temp. Acceleration.


But you can get a weapon to do tons of damage as well, plus add on lots of enhancements and secondary effects (like Suppression, and Align Weapon) that your claws can't get. You can also get much larger reach than with claws, even expanded, again because you are foregoing metamorphosis.
Okay, so I should definitely have a back-up weapon. Fine, I can do that.


Then I'll assume worst case scenario (i.e. solo adventure) and advise you to hang onto Mind Blank. But you still have standard WBL right?
As a general rule, yes, I would still have standard WBL. I haven't been in a game yet where we did not.


You are a straight classed PsyWar...what you you using Able Learner for? Crossclass ranks in non-class skills?
Bingo.

And full-on King of Smack means having 64d6 claw attacks. You aren't anywhere close to that. The extra couple attacks are generally a good thing, especially if you DO have issues with DR.
True enough.

Also, for gear, a great item would be a Ring of Adamantine Touch, for 8000g in the MIC. Golems and constructs are the biggest pain in the buttocks for natural weapons guys. This makes it not a problem.
That's the kind of thing I was talking about!

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 02:43 PM
Be that as it may, I still want to use my claws. Are you saying that a build that focuses on Claws of the Beast needs Metamorphosis to be viable? I realize this build won't be nearly as powerful as Lycan's, but that's just standard for not using Metamorphosis. I just want to know if my build is viable. I realize that I'll have problems with some forms of DR, and that I'll have PP issues, but the PP issues can be fixed with items (I'm thinking Manifester Sling Bullets for a number of my powers), and most of the DR issues can be overcome by some form of item or spell/power.

Yes, you will be viable - but you'll be similarly viable with a weapon+bite, not having to spend 19 PP every day getting the claws out and GP/body slots aligning your natural attacks around DR.

The ML bullets/arrows idea is nice on paper as well, but good luck getting it by a DM. (I know, you're not playing a real game yet...)


If there's one thing I've learned form my time lurking here, Brilliant Gameologists, and the Wizards CO boards, it's this: I don't care what level you are, you will take hits. It's unavoidable. Hence other measures to minimize the odds of hits being able to kill me, such as Greater Concealing Amorpha to provide miss chance, and Vigor/Share Pain to give me a ton of Temp. HP.

All of those things will stack with a good suit of plate just as well. I never said you shouldn't use an Amorpha or Vigor.

I'd rank a Monk's Belt + Inertial Armor ahead of a Chain Shirt + Inertial Armor also. Wear a Scholar's Outfit (is that the one?) if you want body slot enchantments. And all of your AC will apply to your touch AC vs. incorporeal attacks. (Other touch attacks will ignore your IA power, such as rays.)

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 03:13 PM
Yes, you will be viable - but you'll be similarly viable with a weapon+bite, not having to spend 19 PP every day getting the claws out and GP/body slots aligning your natural attacks around DR.
That's what I was looking to find out. I can keep a nice little Suppression Metalline something-or-other around for those times when my claws won't work, but that should really only be when something has DR that is not Magic or Adamantine (thanks to that nifty, and cheap, ring). Also, obviously in an anti-magic field as well, but any magic weapon I have becomes nothing more than a masterwork weapon, possibly made out of some special material, in an anti-magic field. I'm slightly more gimped than everyone else, but what are you gonna do?


The ML bullets/arrows idea is nice on paper as well, but good luck getting it by a DM. (I know, you're not playing a real game yet...)
Rule 0 aside, it's legal, therefore I can try!:smallbiggrin:



All of those things will stack with a good suit of plate just as well. I never said you shouldn't use an Amorpha or Vigor.

I'd rank a Monk's Belt + Inertial Armor ahead of a Chain Shirt + Inertial Armor as well. Wear a Scholar's Outfit (is that the one?) if you want body slot enchantments. And all of your AC will apply to your touch AC vs. incorporeal attacks. (Other touch attacks will ignore your IA power, such as rays.)
My only problem with plate is my inability to move in it. I don't like dropping my speed. The heaviest armor I've ever put on a character was a Mithril Breastplate. And I had to talk myself out of Speed of thought for this character.
Do you mean the Scholar's Outfit from the Player's Handbook? It's the only one I've heard of, but it doesn't say anything about being enchantable.
The Monk's Belt would be useful, if I wasn't already planning on using a Utility Belt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0). I was originally gonna combine it with a Belt of Battle, but I could combine it with a Monk's Belt instead of that, or in addition to it. Hmm... things to ponder.

As an aside, if I was going to change this character to use a regular weapon, what changes would you recommend? Working in Weapon Focus is obvious, and I'd probably want to work in Power Attack as well. I'd want some powers to up my damage output with the weapon, likely Weapon of Acid for some quick damage. Any other suggestions in that regard? I'm pretty confident about him as a claw warrior, DR and anti-magic issues aside.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 03:48 PM
Do you mean the Scholar's Outfit from the Player's Handbook? It's the only one I've heard of, but it doesn't say anything about being enchantable.

It comes with a robe - get a masterwork version and you can enchant it. Up to +8 AC using the rules in MiC; it's also eligible for Magic Vestment, for an overall maximum of +13.


The Monk's Belt would be useful, if I wasn't already planning on using a Utility Belt (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=4400.0). I was originally gonna combine it with a Belt of Battle, but I could combine it with a Monk's Belt instead of that, or in addition to it. Hmm... things to ponder.

Either is fine - it all depends on how much AC you want.


As an aside, if I was going to change this character to use a regular weapon, what changes would you recommend? Working in Weapon Focus is obvious, and I'd probably want to work in Power Attack as well. I'd want some powers to up my damage output with the weapon, likely Weapon of Acid for some quick damage. Any other suggestions in that regard? I'm pretty confident about him as a claw warrior, DR and anti-magic issues aside.

The biggest advantage of weapons over claws is reach - which will grow along with you.

"All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. "

So get a Spiked Chain (you'll need EWP) and you can trip everyone in a massive radius (20 feet when Huge). That will keep them away from the casters, and because they aren't next to you, they can't fight back (and take penalties to ranged attacks while prone.) You can also trip fliers due to your massive height, so feel free to drag that dragon down to earth as well. The enchantments and materials I leave up to you (again, these are campaign specific), though Suppression is always nice.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 07:29 PM
It comes with a robe - get a masterwork version and you can enchant it. Up to +8 AC using the rules in MiC; it's also eligible for Magic Vestment, for an overall maximum of +13.
Ah, that answers that question.



The biggest advantage of weapons over claws is reach - which will grow along with you.

"All your equipment, worn or carried, is similarly expanded by this power. Melee and projectile weapons deal more damage. "

So get a Spiked Chain (you'll need EWP) and you can trip everyone in a massive radius (20 feet when Huge). That will keep them away from the casters, and because they aren't next to you, they can't fight back (and take penalties to ranged attacks while prone.) You can also trip fliers due to your massive height, so feel free to drag that dragon down to earth as well. The enchantments and materials I leave up to you (again, these are campaign specific), though Suppression is always nice.
Great, now you have me wanting to grab EWP [Spiked Chain].:smalltongue: It'd certainly be interesting to play a Spiked Chain tripper/Battlefield Controller. Yet another something to think about.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 08:14 PM
Well, you have a feat free from INA: Claws.

What do Tunnel/Undermountain Fighting do? Never heard of them.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 08:26 PM
Well, you have a feat free from INA: Claws.

What do Tunnel/Undermountain Fighting do? Never heard of them.

Races of Stone. Tunnel Fighting removes the penalty to AC/attacks while squeezing, and Undermountain Tactics is a feat that grants you special combat options when you're fighting in certain situations. They're mostly there to fill in slots, and they fit the flavor.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 09:11 PM
Hmmm...

With the power you freed up from dropping Claws, you could take Compression. Then tight spaces wouldn't be a problem (you'd actually gain AC.) That would also free up two feats.

Up to you though, I know they're there for flavor reasons. :smallsmile:

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 09:48 PM
What about the feat Up the Walls? It does something similar to wall walker power with a couple differences. You have to begin and end on ground BUT you move full speed. And since you EK'd a power you could already take (Lion's Charge) you could just take that power instead of Wall Walker and Up the Walls instead of EK. Just a thought.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 10:08 PM
Hmmm...

With the power you freed up from dropping Claws, you could take Compression. Then tight spaces wouldn't be a problem (you'd actually gain AC.) That would also free up two feats.

Up to you though, I know they're there for flavor reasons. :smallsmile:
If I switch to the Spiked Chain, then I could take Compression instead of Claws. I haven't fully decided to do that yet, and I may will create a second build that is this one but equipped with a Spiked Chain instead of Claws of the Beast. As to those feats, like you said, they're there for flavor, and for flavor only. If anyone else has any suggestions about feats I could grab at that level, I'd love to hear 'em.


What about the feat Up the Walls? It does something similar to wall walker power with a couple differences. You have to begin and end on ground BUT you move full speed. And since you EK'd a power you could already take (Lion's Charge) you could just take that power instead of Wall Walker and Up the Walls instead of EK. Just a thought.
I had Up the Walls in an early version of this. I dropped it in favor of Wall Walker because WW actually lets me stay on the walls or ceiling when my turn ends, whereas UtW does not.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 10:15 PM
I had Up the Walls in an early version of this. I dropped it in favor of Wall Walker because WW actually lets me stay on the walls or ceiling when my turn ends, whereas UtW does not.

Fair enough. I had to spend a great deal of time deciding which I would take too. I settled on the feat just so I could move at normal speed while doing it. Then again my speed is pretty decent and so one turn is usually enough for me on the wall.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 10:23 PM
Fair enough. I had to spend a great deal of time deciding which I would take too. I settled on the feat just so I could move at normal speed while doing it. Then again my speed is pretty decent and so one turn is usually enough for me on the wall.

If I could combine it with Speed of Thought, then yeah, I'd totally take UtW. It's one of my favorite feats. WW just seems the more mechanically sound choice in this case.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 10:26 PM
I believe you can combine it can't you? they are both "as long as you are focused"

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-08, 10:30 PM
I believe you can combine it can't you? they are both "as long as you are focused"

why shouldn't yo be able to combine up the walls and speed of thought? they both require you to mantain your psionic focus, so as long as you are psionicly focused both of them are active, one being active doesn't precludes the other.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 10:30 PM
I believe you can combine it can't you? they are both "as long as you are focused"

Not what I meant. I have a couple of feat slots, but they're so high level the feats would be meaningless. If I could get UtW and SoT at a relatively low level, then I'd take UtW. As it stands, I can barely get the feats I need for either version of this guy at reasonably low levels, so UtW is out.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 10:36 PM
Not what I meant. I have a couple of feat slots, but they're so high level the feats would be meaningless. If I could get UtW and SoT at a relatively low level, then I'd take UtW. As it stands, I can barely get the feats I need for either version of this guy at reasonably low levels, so UtW is out.

Ah I see. It is what I am using in my build (or will be in a level or two) so I thought I'd share. Sorry it didn't fit.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 10:42 PM
Ah I see. It is what I am using in my build (or will be in a level or two) so I thought I'd share. Sorry it didn't fit.

The old version where I used both replaced Earth Sense and Earth Power with them. Then, reading through one Psychic Warrior handbook or another, the author mentioned Earth Sense, and, more importantly, Earth Power. Seeing an opportunity to conserve PP, I jumped on that. UtW remained in, until I saw that WW was more viable, and slightly more versatile. UtW won't let you hide on the ceiling to ambush someone or something coming through the tunnel. WW will.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 10:45 PM
Mostly I never thought of earth power because what guarantee is there that you will be on unworked earth? It seemed too situational in my mind. Of course that thought was before I realized my current game was starting with a dungeon crawl, but It won't be like that forever lol.

Eldariel
2010-07-08, 10:57 PM
Mostly I never thought of earth power because what guarantee is there that you will be on unworked earth? It seemed too situational in my mind. Of course that thought was before I realized my current game was starting with a dungeon crawl, but It won't be like that forever lol.

Dirt in your shoes.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 11:11 PM
If anyone else has any suggestions about feats I could grab at that level, I'd love to hear 'em.

Well, you can't really go wrong with more cowbell EK. Some gems your build is missing:

True Seeing
Schism
Perfect Riposte
Energy Adaptation
Power Resistance
Animal Affinity
Dimension Door (you can do it as a move action if needed.)

Other feat choices include Robilar's Gambit (THE AoO feat), Metapower (on whatever you end up Linking the most - very likely Hustle), and Improved Trip (for your chain.)

Also, dump Psionic Body, it's a turkey (and RAW, does not work with metapsionic feats.) Get Psicrystal Containment instead, so you get two focuses to expend rather than one. (This also means you can apply both Earth Power and Linked Power to the same powers, reducing both of their PP costs.)

And finally, remember that even though you can't manifest powers above 6th-level on your own, you can manifest anything on your list via Dorjes/Power Stones. Mantles add their powers to your list - that means you can manifest Mass Time Hop or Time Regression from either.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-08, 11:15 PM
Dirt in your shoes.

That is just a sad workaround. I would almost be disappointed if my DM allowed that haha.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-08, 11:44 PM
Mostly I never thought of earth power because what guarantee is there that you will be on unworked earth? It seemed too situational in my mind. Of course that thought was before I realized my current game was starting with a dungeon crawl, but It won't be like that forever lol.

It also says stone. The dirt in your shoes mentioned above works, and most dungeon floors will be made of stone. So, in most dungeon environs it works, in the wild it works, and in most cities it works, at least outside of buildings.

And Optimystic, in regards to the powers you mentioned:

True Seeing - not bad, but Steadfast Perception already grants me immunity to figments and glamers, so most of what it does is already done by SP. Still, worth considering.

Schism - had it, dropped it, don't remember why. Definitely worth putting back in.

Perfect Riposte - eh, the attacks against people who miss me are nice, but I don't think it's quite worthwhile

Energy Adaptation - already have the specified version, don't need both.

Power Resistance - not bad, worth the feat

Animal Affinity - had this on a really old version of the build, dropped it because it wasn't as useful at higher levels.
Dimension Door - No. Would be useful, except for two things: 1) I already have Dimension Slide, and 2)
After using this spell, you can't take any other actions until your next turn.

Moving to the feats:
Metapower - why didn't I think of that?
Robilar's Gambit - definitely worthwhile on the Spiked Chain version, not so sure about the Claw one, though...
Improved Trip - Expansion does this for me, more so with a Spiked Chain, but hey, having a ridiculous trip bonus is never a bad thing:smallbiggrin:

Optimystik
2010-07-09, 12:00 AM
Perfect Riposte - eh, the attacks against people who miss me are nice, but I don't think it's quite worthwhile

Remember that more attacks mean more trips. between your ridiculous AC (especially if you get a Monk's Belt after all) and miss chance, it will be relevant pretty often.


Energy Adaptation - already have the specified version, don't need both.

Whoops, missed that. Yeah I'd go specified, it's not often you'll be in a multi-elemental fight. (Dragons tend to come in flavors, after all.)


Animal Affinity - had this on a really old version of the build, dropped it because it wasn't as useful at higher levels.

As with many of your choices, this depends on who is in the party with you. What I can say is that it will stack with Expansion. (Size + Enhancement.)


Robilar's Gambit - definitely worthwhile on the Spiked Chain version, not so sure about the Claw one, though...

I'm afraid I can't really help with the claw version - I keep wanting to suggest metamorphosis, so I'm kind of caught in an infinite loop there. :smalltongue:

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-09, 07:52 AM
Whoops, missed that. Yeah I'd go specified, it's not often you'll be in a multi-elemental fight. (Dragons tend to come in flavors, after all.)
:smallbiggrin:Dragons - Colored-coded for your convenience!:smallwink:



As with many of your choices, this depends on who is in the party with you. What I can say is that it will stack with Expansion. (Size + Enhancement.)
I like the power, it's just not as useful once I get my hands on some enhancement items.



I'm afraid I can't really help with the claw version - I keep wanting to suggest metamorphosis, so I'm kind of caught in an infinite loop there. :smalltongue:
Eh, I tacked Robilar's Gambit on for the heck of it, given that I had an empty slot where an EK had been (learned the power normally) and I had room for Combat Reflexes without Psionic Body. I think that was an artifact from an older version that had more psionic feats attached. So, Robilar's is on both, I'm trying to figure out how to fit Metapsionic Power onto both at a relatively low level.

Thanks for all the help with this.

Chronos Flame
2010-07-09, 03:40 PM
Have you considered strength of my enemy? Its an enhancement bonus too, but in theory you could get a lot more out of it. +8 without augmentation, more than an item can give. You can get about three of that per turn.