Need a Good Classless Fantasy System

[Coplantor]

Just to have the experience. No, I dont want generic or adapted games (like GURPS. Risus, or using Alternity for medieval fantasy).

I want to see how the deveopers went in order to make something that resembles traditional fantasy but without the class related restrictions. First, because I want to experience more and more games, and second, because I'm trying to come up with my own game and I dont know how to keep some iconic archetypes of fantasy and still give the players enough freedom to do, well, whatever they want at character creation.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

You could try Savage Worlds. It's a system that allows for total character customization, and can be set in a high fantasy setting. There are no character classes, but it is sort of a universal roleplaying system, so it may not be what you're looking for.

[Coplantor]

What's the main focus of the game? Or is it completly generic?

[The Big Dice]

You could try RuneQuest/BRP too. As for traditional fantasy, what is that? Or rather, what is your particular take on it?

[Coplantor]

I define as traditional fantasy anything that can be included in the sword and sorcery genre.

[ToySoldierCPlus]

What's the main focus of the game? Or is it completly generic?

Completely generic, although it tries to be grounded in fantasy. You could really use it for any kind of game, though, if you wanted.

Website for the company that makes Savage Worlds. (http://www.peginc.com/)

[Partysan]

Well, how classless do you like it?
For a semi-classless system, the dark eye does have professions, but since there aren't levels in that game they will mostly decide what you are starting with (which is still a lot, considering that in most systems not using levels the characters tend to evolve slower).
Riddle of steel is classless, using a priority system for character generation, but it is a very low magic world and thus might not qualify as sword and sorcery.
If you don't like GURPS, that's ok if still a pity, but you can learn a LOT about how point-buy can work from that system, and point buy is one of the "big" methods in class- and levelless systems.

Actually - are there systems that use levels, but not classes?

[Coplantor]

I like GURPS, but I was more interested in playing a game to decypher what the developers where thinking with each rule. And since my game-project involves sword and sorcery, well, I wanted to check a similar genre game. I'm trying to figure out a system.

Also, yes, I like GURPS :smalltongue:
And Alternity is ALMOST classless but has levels, you have professions, but that dictates what skills you can buy 1 point cheaper.

[Darth Stabber]

The Riddle of Steel. Great game, Magic is highly unbalances, and I don't recomend allowing it for players, but otherwise meets your requirements. Very Conan the Barbariany

[Psyx]

Pendragon?

It's classless in that you're playing a bloke[tte] with a sword.

[Coplantor]

How does it handle character creation? Is it easy to end up with mostrosities that makes no sense and are rather... unplayable? Or you can easily create an iconic character and steel feel that you had all the freedom in the world while making it?

[Kylarra]

Could try one of the various games from WW that use the Storyteller System (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Storyteller_System).

[The Rose Dragon]

What kind of fantasy?

My usual suggestion is Qin: the Warring States and Witchcraft (wuxia fantasy and urban fantasy, respectively). Both can be found on RPGNow.com (the core rulebook of Witchcraft is free). Witchcraft sort of kind of not really has classes, but they only determine character creation, and you have free reign afterwards.

There is also the Riddle of Steel, like everyone else mentioned.

If you can get past the furry aspect, Ironclaw is surprisingly good (though not as good as the other three I mentioned). There is also Jadeclaw, the wuxia counterpart.

I'm not sure whether Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay has levels or classes, but it is supposed to be a good game (do get the 2nd Edition, though).

[Artanis]

To add to what Kylarra said, look into WW's Exalted. It has the "iconic archetypes" you mention, but a character's archetype is determined by what the character is like, instead of vice versa.

Another one worth checking out is Tribe 8 (http://www.dp9.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=66&Itemid=59), which uses the same system (Silhouette) as Heavy Gear.

BESM might also be worth looking into. It's a "universal" system, meaning it's about as far from a class-based system as it gets.

[Coplantor]

I could try the warhammer one, and the wuxia. Mostly becaue warhammer always intrigued me and wuxia might offer intresting combat options.

[Darth Stabber]

+1 vote Iron/Jade Claw. It might make you a furry though. Plus it gives you a reason to use a d12.

[Coplantor]

d12 are always welcome :smallbiggrin:

[UserClone]

I have Ironclaw. Is Jadeclaw any better/worse/different?

[Arbane]

I like GURPS, but I was more interested in playing a game to decypher what the developers where thinking with each rule. And since my game-project involves sword and sorcery, well, I wanted to check a similar genre game. I'm trying to figure out a system.

You might want to stop by the RPG.net forums--the posters there (of whom I am one) can talk your ears off about system and design. They have an entire forum for it.

Level/Classless fantasy systems - Exalted has sort-of classes with its Castes, so skip that one for now. RuneQuest is an old classic, and well worth studying. Tribe 8 might be worth taking a look at--very different system from D&D, very unusual setting (post-apocalyptic our world, with 'spiritual' magic).

Each of these has very different rules, and very different design.

And all these are relatively 'normal' roleplaying games. Going farther afield, you've got indie games like RISUS (very free-form), FATE (ditto) and Sorcerer (which has a Sword-and-Sorcery sourcebook).

[Satyr]

I think that Savage Worlds is an overhyped and pretty dull system; if you know Gurps, you already know a game that can do anything SW can, but usually a bit better and much more thougt-out.

What kind of fantasy do you want? Do you look for a specific setting with rules that support this setting in particular, or a game that just does Fantasy well, but could be applied to any setting?

If you want to have something for Nothing, try Witchcraft (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1). You know, it's free. If this isn't fantasy enough for you, plunder this (http://www.unifans.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=4b9c4335990055afe6c84e1d86f396 e6&action=tpmod;dl=item107). It's also free, and was written by me (so the concept is good, grammar and orthography is... not). Or try and find the Midnight (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2718&it=1) Setting, combine the three and enjoy a good setting with good rules.

[Coplantor]

Yes, Risus is quite a gem.

OK, I'll go check RPG net, though that means another account to check frequently :smallsigh:


I think that Savage Worlds is an overhyped and pretty dull system; if you know Gurps, you already know a game that can do anything SW can, but usually a bit better and much more thougt-out.

What kind of fantasy do you want? Do you look for a specific setting with rules that support this setting in particular, or a game that just does Fantasy well, but could be applied to any setting?

If you want to have something for Nothing, try Witchcraft (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1). You know, it's free. If this isn't fantasy enough for you, plunder this (http://www.unifans.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=4b9c4335990055afe6c84e1d86f396 e6&action=tpmod;dl=item107). It's also free, and was written by me (so the concept is good, grammar and orthography is... not). Or try and find the Midnight (http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/product_info.php?products_id=2718&it=1) Setting, combine the three and enjoy a good setting with good rules.

Well, my intention, as I said, is to check how were the rules thought out in order to fit the genre and the setting, so I can learn to that myself. Yeah, I could just grab a game and run my setting with it, but my inner creator would not be satisfied.

I want regular sword and sorcery fantasy, the character archetypes I want to see are the light and heavy warrior (like swashbuckler and barbarion or knight), the blasty mage, the healer, the sage, the summoner (ala pokemon trainer:smallwink:), the ranger/wilderness guy and the rogue.

[Darth Stabber]

I have Ironclaw. Is Jadeclaw any better/worse/different?

Same, just asia it up a bit.

[erikun]

I am surprised that Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/) has not been brought up yet. It is a completely skill-based system. Character generation is done through lifepaths, where you effectively follow your character through what they went through in their life so far to determine which skills and traits they possess. Improving a skill is based on skill usage, rather than leveling or spending XP. There are plenty of other excellent points to the system, from distinct difference in races to narrative-minded dice rolls to actually good social combat resolution.

There are other people on the forums who have played Burning Wheel more extensively than I have.


I have Ironclaw. Is Jadeclaw any better/worse/different?
From what I understand, a bit looser clan backstory while more wuxia weapon/magic skills. I have Jadeclaw, but not Ironclaw. It is definitely an interesting system and makes your character's race/job significant, although some of the dice mechanics - namely bonuses and penalities - can get a bit confusing.

[Teln]

Level/Classless fantasy systems - Exalted has sort-of classes with its Castes, so skip that one for now.

A Caste in Exalted is just an anima effect and an experience discount on 5 Abilities and their related Charms. Character creation lets you get the exact same discount on another five Abilities, with the only restriction being that you can't get the discount twice on the same Ability (so, no favoring a Caste Ability). Mechanically, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from being a Night Caste (which has Athletics, Awareness, Dodge, Larceny and Stealth as Caste Abilities) with all the Dawn Caste abilities favored (Archery, Martial Arts, Melee, Thrown and War), effectively being two Castes at once.

Well, there is the anima effect, but that's minor compared to Ability/Charm discounts and only comes into play during combat.

[Oracle_Hunter]

I am surprised that Burning Wheel (http://www.burningwheel.org/) has not been brought up yet. It is a completely skill-based system. Character generation is done through lifepaths, where you effectively follow your character through what they went through in their life so far to determine which skills and traits they possess. Improving a skill is based on skill usage, rather than leveling or spending XP. There are plenty of other excellent points to the system, from distinct difference in races to narrative-minded dice rolls to actually good social combat resolution.
And if you don't like the "generic" Burning Wheel setting, there's always Realm Guard (http://www.burningwheel.org/forum/showthread.php?7910-Realm-Guard-Rangers-of-the-North-(v1-4))

[Coplantor]

So far, this one intrigues me the most, skill development through use is something I always wanted to try out (I like final fantasy II, sue me :smalltongue:). How does it works here? Slowly getting points? Getting to roll for improvement? (like risus)

This was also how I homebrewed a megaman RPG when I was 12, it made no sense though, since I invented the rules as we played :smalltongue:
Also, I considered something like this for my setting. So, mr wizard, you want to be a fighter? Start hitting stuff!

[obliged_salmon]

Burning Wheel is quite good. Their base setting is very Tolkienesque, but with more magic. Advancement works by attempting (not necessarily succeeding in) tasks that are easy, difficult, and nigh impossible, with more of the latter types needed the higher your skill/stat exponent is. You can easily do big tough fighter, stealthy fighter, mage, thief, and even cleric to some extent (although instant, simple healing isn't encouraged in the rule set). Pokemon trainer...not so much, but the magic burner has a comprehensive section on summoning.

[erikun]

So far, this one intrigues me the most, skill development through use is something I always wanted to try out (I like final fantasy II, sue me :smalltongue:). How does it works here? Slowly getting points? Getting to roll for improvement? (like risus)
Burning Wheel keeps track of roughly three levels of "difficulty" for a skill. Simply difficulty is roughly half the value of your skill or less. Average difficulty is above half. Hard difficulty is higher than your skill. (I'm making the names up, I don't recall off hand.)

For the first few ranks of a skill, you just need to pass two or three simple difficulty tests to increase in rank. As the skills get more advanced, you need to score more average difficulty and (later) hard difficulty rolls to advance in rank. Hard difficulty rolls are INCREDIBLY difficult to pass, because the game uses a dice poll system. The only way to pass a difficulty that is higher than your dice poll is roll-again or adding your racial-specific trait to rolls, something like Willpower from the White Wolf games.

[Kylarra]

A Caste in Exalted is just an anima effect and an experience discount on 5 Abilities and their related Charms. Character creation lets you get the exact same discount on another five Abilities, with the only restriction being that you can't get the discount twice on the same Ability (so, no favoring a Caste Ability). Mechanically, there's absolutely nothing stopping you from being a Night Caste (which has Athletics, Awareness, Dodge, Larceny and Stealth as Caste Abilities) with all the Dawn Caste abilities favored (Archery, Martial Arts, Melee, Thrown and War), effectively being two Castes at once.

Well, there is the anima effect, but that's minor compared to Ability/Charm discounts and only comes into play during combat.Excluding the eclipse caste's ability to learn non solar charms anyway.

[Teln]

...How did I manage to forget that?

[Coplantor]

Well, seems like a have a big list here... Exalted I already have it, and it does have some good stuff there to check. Burning wheel and Iron claw are the ones who caught my atention the most.

[Aroka]

Just to have the experience. No, I dont want generic or adapted games (like GURPS. Risus, or using Alternity for medieval fantasy).

I want to see how the deveopers went in order to make something that resembles traditional fantasy but without the class related restrictions. First, because I want to experience more and more games, and second, because I'm trying to come up with my own game and I dont know how to keep some iconic archetypes of fantasy and still give the players enough freedom to do, well, whatever they want at character creation.

Artesia: Adventures in the Known World. It will blow you away. Read the comics, too.

Artesia's world is a medieval fantasy setting entering a period approximately equivalent to the Renaissance. The world has a lot of reflections of the real world - the Middle Kingdoms are English/British/German/French, Daradja is Celtic/Scottish, Palatia is Alexander's Greece/Roman Empire/Renaissance Italy, the Empire is Byzantium/Turkey/Roman Empire/Ayyubid Empire, and so on.

The setting shines in a combination of realistic medieval setting and deep mythology and religion. Magic is everyday yet rare - only priests, witches, and sorcerers can work real spells, but it's effects resonate through society (murderers always wear masks so the ghosts of their victims cannot identify them), and the gods' influence is felt in everything. The mechanics for magic and religion are completely awesome.

Combat is brutally realistic; great heroes can hack their way through terrible enemies or packs of mooks, but if their wards, guardians, and armor should fail, they can still be killed by a single blow.

There's a big focus on social action and relationships - great heroes affect others around them (indeed, Artesia's own story has a huge focus on how her actions affect other people, especially those who attach themselves to her).


The Riddle of Steel. The core book provides a simple alt-Earth setting around the 15th century; nothing to write home about.

The system, however, is. Combat is smooth, fun, and lethal. You get a pool of dice, and each round is divided into two exchanges; you choose between attack and defense, and pick from an array of maneuvers dependent on your weapon and fighting style. If you're facing a knight in heavy armor, you want to trip him to get at a weak spot; or you can just bash his helmet in with a warhammer or poleaxe. You have to allot the right number of dice to each action - if you use all in an attack, you'll have nothing for defense. Tactics and thinking is everything - in fact, the way the mechanics work, out-thinking your opponent is vital.

Advancement is based on roleplaying out your character's chosen motivations, which also help you perform actions related to them (including fighting).


RuneQuest. A classic over 30 years old. Chaosium's d100 system, ton of small differences between editions. The setting of Glorantha is pretty much the entire point.


HeroQuest. Same setting, different system. The emphasis is on roleplay; all conflicts, whether combat or debate, are resolved with one mechanic.


Pendragon. Arthur's knights. Many similarities to RuneQuest, the d100 just gets switched out for a d20. Great passion and virtue mechanics facilitate unusual challenges - can your knight outdo the pride of a boasting champion, or will he use his humility to subtly shame the man?


Artesia: AKW, HeroQuest, and Pendragon are probably the best examples of rules serving the setting and genre - I really encourage checking them all out.

[Lord Vampyre]

Here is a game that I used to play called Legacies (www.legacieslarp.org). It is a Live-Action game, but could be adapted for a table-top RPG. Friends of mine developed the game after becoming disenchanted with NERO.