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molten_dragon
2010-07-08, 02:44 PM
It seems to be a common belief that most classic fantasy characters would be pretty low level when translated into D&D terms. It we accept this as true, then what are some good examples of high-level D&D characters? Whst is a good example of what a 10th or 15th or even 20th level character can do?

My own suggestion is Jim Butcher's Code Alera. I think the more powerful characters in that series are a good example of characters in their early to mid teens perhaps.

Yora
2010-07-08, 02:45 PM
Bleach and Final Fantasy VII come to my mind.

About every single character in Bleach is close to crossing the Epic-line.

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 02:46 PM
Elric springs to mind.

Teln
2010-07-08, 02:47 PM
Dragonball Z characters, perhaps?

Endarire
2010-07-08, 02:47 PM
My level 15ish Wizard used a chained save-or-die to kill just about all the foes on the battlefield. I retired the character when things became too easy.

Once you hit level 15, you're effectively a demigod. Class and feat synergies have or are soon to come. Rocket tag is prevalent. The classic 'dungeon crawling' paradigm doesn't happen if the casters can use their divinations to work for them.

Lapak
2010-07-08, 02:50 PM
Stephen Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series is a near-perfect rendition of a world in which the vast majority of people fall within the E6 landscape - ordinary soliders and hedge mages and such - but the standouts are Level-20 types who can slaughter armies, transform into powerful monsters, undo death itself, cause mountains to fly, and so on.

Ernir
2010-07-08, 02:51 PM
Richard from the Sword of Truth series and Rand from the later Wheel of Time books should fit the description.


My level 15ish Wizard used a chained save-or-die to kill just about all the foes on the battlefield. I retired the character when things became too easy.
There were 16ish foes on the battlefield? :smalltongue:

EvilJoe15
2010-07-08, 02:53 PM
Kratos is about as epic as it gets.

arguskos
2010-07-08, 02:56 PM
Elric springs to mind.
Which "Elric"? There are lots of options. If you mean the Eternal Champion, I'd say that yeah, he's probably in the mid to high teens, what with being awesome and everything. A lot of that is Stormbringer though.

jiriku
2010-07-08, 03:01 PM
Axis, Azhure, and Faraday, towards the end of the third book of the Wayfarer Redemption series.

Sauron, in the Lord of the Rings, and some of the mightiest elven heroes in the Silmarillion.

Morph Bark
2010-07-08, 03:02 PM
About every single character in Bleach is close to crossing the Epic-line.

Only in terms of melee though. Spellcasting-wise, most of them are low-level, with only a few specialists getting high.

The various Kage in Naruto could fit. And The Apprentice from The Force Unleashed. Most legendary Pokémon are epic-level monsters.

And from the Wheel of Time... honestly, I think most main characters in the later books could fit in there. Plus, don't most of them have Epic Leadership to boot?

Coplantor
2010-07-08, 03:07 PM
Dragonball Z characters, Exalted characters:smalltongue:, some of the craziest mythological figures (like hercules), Dante from Devil May Cry. The Disgaea cast...

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-08, 03:07 PM
And from the Wheel of Time... honestly, I think most main characters in the later books could fit in there. Plus, don't most of them have Epic Leadership to boot?

Mid level sure, but Mat and Perrin aren't into the teens yet. The funny thing about wheel of time though, it that it's power curve is about the same as D&D's. Casters just tower over everyone, and it uses 2e differing XP charts, so the casters also level up faster than everyone else. And only casters can use the best magic item, get the most respect, and have their own super secret organisation backing them up. It's almost like mortals vs Exalted.

Marriclay
2010-07-08, 03:12 PM
Mid level sure, but Mat and Perrin aren't into the teens yet. The funny thing about wheel of time though, it that it's power curve is about the same as D&D's. Casters just tower over everyone, and it uses 2e differing XP charts, so the casters also level up faster than everyone else. And only casters can use the best magic item, get the most respect, and have their own super secret organisation backing them up. It's almost like mortals vs Exalted.

Well, until Mat got his necklace of Spell Immunity. And There's apparently no conjuration spells! Now he could likely kill even the most powerful Aes Sedai if he was really bent on it.

Knaight
2010-07-08, 03:33 PM
Kelsier is probably past the e6 threshold, Vin is well into the mid levels, looking at The Mistborn trilogy. The main cast in Beet The Vandel buster is probably level 7-8 by book 12, the 7 star Vandels they are fighting range from 9(Grineed)-12(Beltorze, Baron)ish with one guy (Noa) possibly as high as 15. Its actual abilities are unknown, but it earned an honor equivalent to wiping out hundreds of massive, well protected cities entirely in self defense.

EvilJoe15
2010-07-08, 03:39 PM
Many of the characters from Trigun. Vash, Knives, most of the Gun-ho Guns. The rest of the world would be close to E6.

The Big Dice
2010-07-08, 03:56 PM
Which "Elric"? There are lots of options. If you mean the Eternal Champion, I'd say that yeah, he's probably in the mid to high teens, what with being awesome and everything. A lot of that is Stormbringer though.

There is only Elric of Melnibone. Any other "Elric" is not Elric Kinslayer, bearer of the Black Sword, Eternal Champion and so on, created by Michael Moorcock.

As for what level he is, he regularly summons city destroying divine entities, gods, demigods and beast lords. He's been known to single handedly take on entire armies, such as the Kelmain Host. He studied magic for centuries in the space of a few years, by means of the Dream Couches. Making him the single most powerful sorceror of his age, even if he was but a shadow of his forebears.

He kills Chaos Lords and steals their power for himself and ultimately becomes the means by which a world is ended and a new one created.

I'd say he counts as Epic level.

Other Epic Level characters would be the Big Guns of Raymond E Feist's Midkemia. Tomas is a demigod reincarnated, and Pug destroyed a planet by crashing its own moon into it.

The problem is, fantasy literature and fantasy gaming are prety severly divorced these days. And because of D&D, epic has come to mean "of great personal power" in gaming terms, where in literary term it tends to mean "of great scale and importance."

Prime32
2010-07-08, 03:59 PM
Here's that article which goes in-depth about what how powerful characters are at certain levels.

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html


So what have we learned so far? Almost everyone you have ever met is a 1st level character. The few exceptional people you’ve met are probably 2nd or 3rd level – they’re canny and experienced and can accomplish things that others find difficult or impossible.

If you know someone who’s 4th level, then you’re privileged to know one of the most talented people around: They’re a professional sports player. Or a brain surgeon. Or a rocket scientist.

If you know someone who’s 5th level, then you have the honor of knowing someone that will probably be written about in history books. Walter Payton. Michael Jordan. Albert Einstein. Isaac Newton. Miyamoto Musashi. William Shakespeare.

So when your D&D character hits 6th level, it means they’re literally superhuman: They are capable of achieving things that no human being has ever been capable of achieving. They have transcended the mortal plane and become a mythic hero.

Eldariel
2010-07-08, 04:01 PM
Many of the characters from Trigun. Vash, Knives, most of the Gun-ho Guns. The rest of the world would be close to E6.

Just a nitpick, but it's Gung-Ho Gun. Comes from the Chinese phrase "Gung Ho" for "Eager" or "Enthusiastic" far as I can tell.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 04:08 PM
Well, until Mat got his necklace of Spell Immunity. And There's apparently no conjuration spells! Now he could likely kill even the most powerful Aes Sedai if he was really bent on it.

Actually, not only are there conjuration spells (lightning is one, in WoT), they can explicitly kill Mat, because they are natural phenomena.

They can also chuck very heavy/sharp items at him, or mundane explosives. The amulet stops neither.

Milskidasith
2010-07-08, 04:12 PM
Actually, not only are there conjuration spells (lightning is one, in WoT), they can explicitly kill Mat, because they are natural phenomena.

They can also chuck very heavy/sharp items at him, or mundane explosives. The amulet stops neither.

So... it's an amulet of SR: Infinite?

FantomFang
2010-07-08, 04:21 PM
So... it's an amulet of SR: Infinite?

Basically. Doesn't stop him from getting tortured by everyone around him as they play scientist, trying to figure out its limitations. In fact, that's how we've come to learn of its limitations!

Tengu_temp
2010-07-08, 04:25 PM
Here's that article which goes in-depth about what how powerful characters are at certain levels.

http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html

Someone posted a list of things this article got wrong once. It was a very long list.

IonDragon
2010-07-08, 04:40 PM
Alucard comes blazing to the front. Though he's almost definitely Epic or Gestalt.

dextercorvia
2010-07-08, 05:08 PM
Pug.

Fortunately, he is basically retired.

Dragon Elite
2010-07-08, 05:11 PM
Drizz't series. :smalltongue:

balistafreak
2010-07-08, 05:16 PM
Drizz't series. :smalltongue:

Thinking literally now, aren't we? :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2010-07-08, 05:24 PM
Someone posted a list of things this article got wrong once. It was a very long list.As I'd expect, given the number of real-world figures. The basic point is still valid though.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 05:39 PM
So... it's an amulet of SR: Infinite?

It is indeed spell immunity... it just uses the D&D definition. (i.e. SR that cannot be overcome.)

Things that bypass SR are the problem, just as they are for a golem.


Pug.

Fortunately, he is basically retired.

That was one scary mage :smalleek:


As I'd expect, given the number of real-world figures. The basic point is still valid though.

I'm inclined to agree.

JonestheSpy
2010-07-08, 06:05 PM
It really depends on whether your expectation is whether these characters to resemble the heavily optimized PC's that so many people seem to regard as "standard" in these parts. Especially when you stick with Core an ignore things that enable cheesey things like chain save-or-dies.

Take Gandalf, for instance. People like to claim he's not that high level, doesn't do much at all really. He doesn't fling around army-killing spells like people expect DnD wizards to do, and he runs from goblins and wolves. BUT, he also defeated a Balor single-handed (yes, Balors are obviously based on the Balrogs) and then leveled up in he course of the story. He describes himself as the most dangerous thing one can meet in Middle earth aside from Sauron himself, and he's probably right. But most of his magic is invisible - it's about contests of wills and mental domination, fighting off the evil magic of Mordor, that kind of thing - the flashy, firey stuff is the smallest part of it, really. Probably not the way a player would build a high-level wizard. But at doesn't make him any less epic.

I mentioned Cyrano DeBergerac in an earlier thread, pointing out his fight with a hundred men (unarmored and wielding only a non-magical rapier) and joking about it the next day in a baker's shop as an example of a truly high level fighter. Someone countered that a 5th or 6th level with Great Cleave could have easily done the same against a bunch of 1st level warriors. So aside from the fact that it's an awfully big leap of faith that all 100 men were just 1st level mooks, there's also no reason to think he had the seriously silly Great Cleave feat. Scenes of the fight in question have made it into various film versions, and in none of them is Cyrano killing 6 men in 6 seconds. Does that mean he's not high level, or just that said feat doesn't fit into his character sheet?

Mr.Moron
2010-07-08, 06:16 PM
As far as humans go, Lezard Valeth from Valkyrie Profile is probably fairly high level.

Spoiler warning, yo.

He is not only is able to turn humans into demons, and create entirely new forms of life but is also to able manipulate/transplant souls, even those gods. That's just the first the game. By the second he's manages time travel, manipulate the party into helping him kill Odin, and is on the verge of creating a new universe. He's only finally put down when 3 different goddesses (one of which had already ascended beyond godhood and gained the powers of all creation in the first game) merge into one body. Granted he goes down hard, but still.

Actually much of the games cast might qualify, but I'm not sure if they count since they're either gods in their own right or were transformed into Einherjar by you.

Lezard basically worked his all the way up under his own power (plus stealing a powerful artifact). Sure he was an evil, evil bastard but a high level I'm fairly sure.

Masaioh
2010-07-08, 06:20 PM
Many shonen manga have epic characters in them. Some of the planeswalkers in MTG are bound to be early-mid epic as well.

IonDragon
2010-07-08, 06:23 PM
Oh, and of course Fizban.

Senile, but still high level mage.

true_shinken
2010-07-08, 06:26 PM
Oh, and of course Fizban.

Senile, but still high level mage.

He is A GOD, for crying out loud.

Aroka
2010-07-08, 06:33 PM
He is A GOD, for crying out loud.

And even if he weren't, using high-level D&D characters as examples of high-level D&D characters is a bit... recursive?


Kratos and Elric are pretty much it for me, too - they're the only ones who operate on similar paradigms. (Conan, Fafhrd, Mouser, and even most other Eternal Champions - like Hawkmoon and Corum - operate on a different paradigm not compatible with D&D.)

I suppose there's always the Silmarillion, though.

Fingolfin fought a duel with Morgoth - effectively a god - and held his ground for a time, wounding him.

Ecthelion of Gondolin kills the greatest Balrog (that's right, the one Gandalf fights is, comparatively, a sissy), and possibly - depending on versions - three others. He gets mobbed by countless trolls - trolls, not orcs - before he dies.

Beren and Luthien face and defeat Sauron with their animal companion- er, friend, Huan the Bloodhound, and successfully infiltrate Morgoth's fortress, put him to sleep with a spell, and steal a Silmaril from his crown. Beren then survives a fight with the single most terrible (were)wolf ever (with epic indigestion).

And then there's all that soloing dragons in melee that goes on.

true_shinken
2010-07-08, 06:41 PM
And even if he weren't, using high-level D&D characters as examples of high-level D&D characters is a bit... recursive?


Well, Driz'zt is supposedly level 16... but he seems like around level 10 at most if you go by the novels.

IonDragon
2010-07-08, 06:43 PM
He is A GOD, for crying out loud.

Well yes and no. He's a god sure, but it rather seemed like he'd forgotten how to use his diefic powers as Fizban.

Shademan
2010-07-08, 06:50 PM
Well, Driz'zt is supposedly level 16... but he seems like around level 10 at most if you go by the novels.

and yet he only finds like ONE healing potion EVER. wonder why he never befriended a cleric...
well ok, it was that dwarf, but he got sucker-punch'd to death so what have you...

Saph
2010-07-08, 07:10 PM
Many of the examples have been listed above.

Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor from the Wheel of Time. Interesting because, as mentioned, the series uses the Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards mechanic exactly. Channellers (spellcasters) like Elayne and Egwene are utterly useless at level one, but can destroy entire armies once they reach their peak.

All the higher-ranked wizards from the Diane Duane Wizardry series. Even relative newbies can hop dimensions, deflect any attack up to and including an atomic bomb, and rewrite reality as they go. Only trouble is, their main enemy is a literal god who can do everything they can and more.

Doctor Strange from the Marvel Universe seems similar to a high-level D&D Wizard.

Although he's nominally science-based instead of magic-based, Iron Man seems like a pretty good fit for a high-level Artificer - can build or buy almost anything, is always working on something new, and has a box of more tricks than you can count.

Aroka
2010-07-08, 07:14 PM
Superheroes in general. If fighters worked, they'd be Captain America all over.

I've always thought a typical high-level game resembles superhero comics a lot. A bunch of heroes get together, start a club, find/buy/take over a clubhouse, and adventure all over the planet (travelling very swiftly to be anywhere at a moment's notice) in response to threats varying from personal to apocalyptical.

subject42
2010-07-08, 07:30 PM
Back to Jim Butcher, I'd nominate Ebenezar McCoy from the Dresden files. In the course of the series he has:


Killed someone by dropping a satellite on them.
Sucked the life out of ~200 people with a gesture.
Hurled somebody several miles into Lake Michigan with his brain.
Held a powerful vampire perfectly still, five feet off the ground, with the force of his will.


He also claims to be responsible for Tunguska and Krakatoa.

I'm sure he's done other stuff that I don't remember, but he seems like he would equate to a fairly high level character.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-08, 07:34 PM
It seems to be a common belief that most classic fantasy characters would be pretty low level when translated into D&D terms.

...no it isn't.

Usually, whenever I see a Conan, Fafhrd, Aragorn, or even Robin Hood statted out, they're at least fifteenth level.

Anyway, to answer your question, the big hitters from any high fantasy book would qualify, e.g. Pug / Milamber, Tomas, and several others from Krondor; Cohen, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax, and the Patrician from Discworld; pretty much everybody from the Amber Chronicles; or people like Silk and Belgarath from the Belgariad.

Tinydwarfman
2010-07-08, 07:42 PM
...no it isn't.

Usually, whenever I see a Conan, Fafhrd, Aragorn, or even Robin Hood statted out, they're at least fifteenth level.

Anyway, to answer your question, the big hitters from any high fantasy book would qualify, e.g. Pug / Milamber, Tomas, and several others from Krondor; Cohen, Ridcully, Granny Weatherwax, and the Patrician from Discworld; pretty much everybody from the Amber Chronicles; or people like Silk and Belgarath from the Belgariad.

Yes, but why are they 15th level? There is nothing superhuman about them. What makes them 15th level?

arguskos
2010-07-08, 07:44 PM
Aside about Elric of Melnibone.
Ok, let me clarify something. I love Elric of Melnibone. He is my favorite of all literary characters ever. However, you are somewhat misrepresenting him.


There is only Elric of Melnibone. Any other "Elric" is not Elric Kinslayer, bearer of the Black Sword, Eternal Champion and so on, created by Michael Moorcock.
Amen. However, there are other literary and fictional characters named Elric, so the name needs to be clarified. No need to jump down my throat.


As for what level he is, he regularly summons city destroying divine entities, gods, demigods and beast lords. He's been known to single handedly take on entire armies, such as the Kelmain Host. He studied magic for centuries in the space of a few years, by means of the Dream Couches. Making him the single most powerful sorceror of his age, even if he was but a shadow of his forebears.
He does summon demons and elementals, and is a powerful sorcerer. This is mostly why I ranked him in the mid to high teen range. Note that the Kelmain Host was delayed (not defeated) thanks to the nature of the Black Sword and nothing more.


He kills Chaos Lords and steals their power for himself and ultimately becomes the means by which a world is ended and a new one created.
...this had absolutely nothing to do with his magic nor personal abilities. All of those events? Stormbringer-fueled, and almost entirely because of. Without the Black Sword, Elric could not have done such things. See how he reacted when he first summoned Arioch. It is quite clear that he is nothing before Arioch's might without the Black Sword.


I'd say he counts as Epic level.
No, he performs great deeds, but he is not destroying the world, he is simply a mighty sorcerer, a mover and shaker. Epics are those characters that through themselves alone are capable of world-shattering deeds. Elric, much as I love him, needs Stormbringer to do this.

Elric alone, with the drugs that give him vitality, I would rank as between 15 and 18, give or take. With the Black Sword, his level is irrelevant, as the artifact nature of Stormbringer is incalculable.

SITB
2010-07-08, 07:46 PM
The Servants from F/SN seem t be around mid-teens. Assassin is a fighter, he has one fancy trick and when you shut it down he is a less than impressive warrior waving a fancy sword (Which is even not magical to boot). Archer is probably a factotum with archery focus. Gil isn't even playing the same game insofar as power is concerned and is more akin to Solar.

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 07:50 PM
...no it isn't.

Usually, whenever I see a Conan, Fafhrd, Aragorn, or even Robin Hood statted out, they're at least fifteenth level.Where exactly? I mean in the original DnD Conan is 8th level, or more acurately 8th level is Conan.

But beyond that lookiong at more traditional heroes. Perseus is around 7th level, Theseus 4th and even Odysseus would barely qualify as tenth at best.

Aroka
2010-07-08, 07:55 PM
Yes, but why are they 15th level? There is nothing superhuman about them. What makes them 15th level?

What's superhuman about a 20th-level fighter (or rogue, or barbarian), other than action movie hero hit points? Conan wrestles man-eating gorillas and kills Cthulhoid monsters with a dagger.

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 08:03 PM
What's superhuman about a 20th-level fighter (or rogue, or barbarian), other than action movie hero hit points? Conan wrestles man-eating gorillas and kills Cthulhoid monsters with a dagger.A 20th level fighter can wrestle Dragons naked. As for the wrestling apes and killing horrors with a dagger. Those are fairly low level achivements by DnD standards.

Tavar
2010-07-08, 08:11 PM
Also, looks at skills/archery. Twentieth level characters are blowing the world records for long jumps and the like out of the water, and archery stopped being remotely realistic long ago.

Alleran
2010-07-08, 08:12 PM
Lews Therin/Rand al'Thor from the Wheel of Time. Interesting because, as mentioned, the series uses the Linear Warriors Quadratic Wizards mechanic exactly. Channellers (spellcasters) like Elayne and Egwene are utterly useless at level one, but can destroy entire armies once they reach their peak.
In the Wheel of Time RPG book (yeah, yeah, it's not exactly a brilliant source at representing channelling and so on, but work with what's there), Rand is 19th level as of about Book 7 or 8. Mat and Perrin are both 14th-15th (with assorted extra bonuses, too, because all three of them are ta'veren - Mat also has bonus feats from the ter'angreal he walked through in Rhuidean). Egwene is 14th, as I recall, and Elayne is 13th. Moiraine was 12th.

I'm also pretty sure the Epic-level handbook lists a few characters that would qualify as Epic by D&D terms (or at least in the opinion of the author). Conan was among them, as was Elric, Cu Chulainn, Gandalf, and I think Baba Yaga and Odysseus (if it lists Odysseus, I would expect Achilles to be there as well).

I'd also throw Belgarath from the Belgariad up there. Sure, he doesn't do a whole lot (he pulls off polymorph, telekinesis and so on for the most part, as well as some basic teleporting of objects, but does occasionally throw out what looks similar to a meteor swarm), but that's mostly because he keeps his power on the down-low, and doesn't need to exercise it all the time (though he does pull it out against some of the Angaraks, particularly high-ranking Grolims). His daughter Polgara also uses a Polymorph Any Object (I think) on Salmissra. I'd be tempted to say Silk is high level as well, but that might just be fanboyism talking - you could stat him at about 10-12, though he probably has high ability scores and a level or two of Monk in there. Belgarion isn't epic level, but he has the Orb, which is a supercharged epic artifact all on its own (Wish and Miracle at will, duplicating any spell or effect you could possibly want, more or less).

Pug, as was mentioned. He's probably way, way into epic levels by now. Miranda is close behind him, and Magnus is getting towards it as well. Tomas too, but he probably has some divine ranks in there, which may or may not replace his epic levels.

Also, Druids from Shannara were statted as being 17th level. Bremen was 20th level (as was the Warlock Lord, who also had the ghost template on top of that).

I'd also say most superheroes are epic-level adversaries. Superman and his ilk would be cracking CR 40+ (I think Dicefreaks statted Superman with d20 as being CR 60).

Chambers
2010-07-08, 08:15 PM
Although he's nominally science-based instead of magic-based, Iron Man seems like a pretty good fit for a high-level Artificer - can build or buy almost anything, is always working on something new, and has a box of more tricks than you can count.

Agreed. His Plot ability to pull out some new tech that saves the day is kinda like an Artificer's "Oh yeah? Well I made a magic item that does THIS!"

Aroka
2010-07-08, 08:19 PM
A 20th level fighter can wrestle Dragons naked. As for the wrestling apes and killing horrors with a dagger. Those are fairly low level achivements by DnD standards.

Er, huh?

Assuming elite array, sans magical items (Conan had none, in general; there's the belt in People of the Black Circle etc., but they were always unique plot items), we've got maybe Str 18 Dex 13 Con 16, AC 11, hp 174, grapple check +24 (+28 if you took Improved Grapple). Which dragon were you thinking of wrestling with that?


Also, looks at skills/archery. Twentieth level characters are blowing the world records for long jumps and the like out of the water, and archery stopped being remotely realistic long ago.

Yeah, and Conan's physical achievements sure aren't inhuman?

Just his climbing ability alone is ridiculous - he regularly scales sheer cliffs hundreds of feet high without any tools.

Math_Mage
2010-07-08, 08:23 PM
It really depends on whether your expectation is whether these characters to resemble the heavily optimized PC's that so many people seem to regard as "standard" in these parts. Especially when you stick with Core an ignore things that enable cheesey things like chain save-or-dies.

Some things vary with optimization. Some don't. See below.


Take Gandalf, for instance. People like to claim he's not that high level, doesn't do much at all really. He doesn't fling around army-killing spells like people expect DnD wizards to do, and he runs from goblins and wolves. BUT, he also defeated a Balor single-handed (yes, Balors are obviously based on the Balrogs) and then leveled up in he course of the story. He describes himself as the most dangerous thing one can meet in Middle earth aside from Sauron himself, and he's probably right. But most of his magic is invisible - it's about contests of wills and mental domination, fighting off the evil magic of Mordor, that kind of thing - the flashy, firey stuff is the smallest part of it, really. Probably not the way a player would build a high-level wizard. But at doesn't make him any less epic.

While the Balor is obviously based on the Balrog, the Balor is far more powerful. Consider the impressive array of spell-likes, for example. And there's no reason to hold up Sauron as particularly high-level, either. Sauron and Gandalf (and the Balrog) get racial abilities that outstrip the other characters by quite a bit. But they don't have many class levels, and they don't have many total levels, by simple comparison with encounters of similar CR.


I mentioned Cyrano DeBergerac in an earlier thread, pointing out his fight with a hundred men (unarmored and wielding only a non-magical rapier) and joking about it the next day in a baker's shop as an example of a truly high level fighter. Someone countered that a 5th or 6th level with Great Cleave could have easily done the same against a bunch of 1st level warriors. So aside from the fact that it's an awfully big leap of faith that all 100 men were just 1st level mooks, there's also no reason to think he had the seriously silly Great Cleave feat. Scenes of the fight in question have made it into various film versions, and in none of them is Cyrano killing 6 men in 6 seconds. Does that mean he's not high level, or just that said feat doesn't fit into his character sheet?

So the super-strong Fighter motif doesn't fit the concept. Try a different route, then. Stat him up as a Rogue with high Dex and maybe good Str, add Combat Expertise and Weapon Finesse and Improved Feint. Add Swashbuckler levels--is Cyrano a good fit for a Daring Outlaw? Power Attack, Cleave, and Intimidating Strike fill out the list of feats, putting him at level 9. And add Group Fake-Out, Back on your Feet and Never Outnumbered. Max Intimidate, Bluff, and the standard stuff.

So Cyrano waltzes in with his +15 attack bonus (+8 BAB + 5 Dex + 1 WF +1 masterwork), 16 AC (10 + 5 Dex + 1 Dodge). He's a ducking, rolling, dodging kinda guy, so he'll usually drop down to a +10 and have a nifty 21 AC. He's so quick with his sword the opponent usually doesn't know when it's coming, so he gets one good stab in per round at a flat-footed AC (Improved Feint). 75% of the time he hits 15 AC for 6d6+Str+Int damage, which will lay out any 1st-level warrior or fighter, and he's quick enough to take 2 at a time (Cleave). ~50% chance of 2 down, ~25% chance of 1 down, ~25% chance of 0 down--combat's going to be 80 rounds, on average.

Now, his opponents are strong, but they aren't Cy. So use the Elite Array, they get +2 Str +1 BAB = a 3/20 chance to hit the guy for 2d6+4 assuming greatswords. Of course, they're usually Demoralized by Cy's hits, so crits only. Cy has 43 health before Con on average, say 61. Were Cy's opponents nice enough to do the whole 1-on-1 thing, like all the usual tools? Then he gets hit 4 times for...16d6+32 damage. Which is pretty lethal.

But it wouldn't help all that much to make Cy a 20th-level character for that, would it? Sure, he'd have a neat 105 hp on average, and combat would only take 50 rounds, but that's still 50 rounds where he's realistically surrounded by soldiers making attacks. Say only 4 people get to attack him in any given round (only 4 people in a given 30' radius circle is pretty spread out); that's 10 crits in 50 rounds, for 40d6+80 damage, which will kill him. This highlights one big problem with D&D's combat mechanic, the "either you don't get hit or you get stabbed in the eye" mechanic of AC vs. critical hits...but doesn't really help us figure out what level Cy should be.

Side note: This is why magic items are important to Fighters, Rogues, and other melee base classes. A 20th level melee character, itemless and facing a CR 15 challenge (especially one composed of 128 CR 1 foes), is very likely to go down. The same character with some Blinking and Blur and flight is going to waltz right through.

Lord Loss
2010-07-08, 08:25 PM
Which "Elric"? There are lots of options. If you mean the Eternal Champion, I'd say that yeah, he's probably in the mid to high teens, what with being awesome and everything. A lot of that is Stormbringer though.

Pretty surehe means the guy with the cursed sworded.

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 08:28 PM
Er, huh?

Assuming elite array, sans magical items (Conan had none, in general; there's the belt in People of the Black Circle etc., but they were always unique plot items), we've got maybe Str 18 Dex 13 Con 16, AC 11, hp 174, grapple check +24 (+28 if you took Improved Grapple). Which dragon were you thinking of wrestling with that?With a plus 28 you could grapple an adult white dragon with a 50% chance of success. You would also be on par with an iron golem while reliably being able to pin stone golems.

Aroka
2010-07-08, 08:35 PM
With a plus 28 you could grapple an adult white dragon with a 50% chance of success. You would also be on par with an iron golem while reliably being able to pin stone golems.

Yeah, except, you know, getting anything done. And the breath weapon, and the natural weapons (4d6+3d8+27 per round, averaging 54.5). With a CR 10 dragon.

Without a heap of magic items, D&D non-casters are just a cruel joke. They have nothing resembling supernatural abilities, just... Conan-like abilities (i.e. incredible physical feats, skill points allowing).

Axolotl
2010-07-08, 08:37 PM
Yeah, except, you know, getting anything done. And the breath weapon, and the natural weapons (4d6+3d8+27 per round, averaging 54.5). With a CR 10 dragon.I never said it'd be a smart thing to do.


Without a heap of magic items, D&D non-casters are just a cruel joke. They have nothing resembling supernatural abilities, just... Conan-like abilities (i.e. incredible physical feats, skill points allowing).Yes but that's one of the serious flaws with 3.5. It doesn't make Conan particularly high level.

Math_Mage
2010-07-08, 08:38 PM
Yeah, except, you know, getting anything done. And the breath weapon, and the natural weapons (4d6+3d8+27 per round, averaging 54.5). With a CR 10 dragon.

Without a heap of magic items, D&D non-casters are just a cruel joke. They have nothing resembling supernatural abilities, just... Conan-like abilities (i.e. incredible physical feats, skill points allowing).

Well, in some things they advance far beyond Conan. In others, they advance not much at all. The ability to survive raging hordes of mooks on the order of hundreds seems to be in the latter category.