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Exthalion
2010-07-08, 03:30 PM
Let us suppose a hypothetical scenario in which a party consists of a fighter, a rouge, a wizard who things wizards should be blasters, and a cheater of mystra.

One of these things is not like the other. Now, as a DM, what do you do? Additionally, let us suppose that the cheater is actually good at roleplaying their character.

This scenario or variations there of can happen often. One method is to ban every prestige class that has powerful class abilities and full or high casting. Another is to wipe out the top teir or two of classes.

But are those the only options? Can a party have character with wildly different levels of optimization or power and still be fun for everyone?

I subscribe to a modified version of the advice in the Wizard's Handbook: How to Be God. I believe that provided that the specific rolls are not being impinged upon it doesn't matter. For example. If the cheater were using their free persist to buff the rest of the party then there isn't a problem. If a point comes where the fighter is the second string attacker then I see a problem.

To ask concerning my own problem: There are several members of a fairly large party who all have similar rolls AKA primary casters. Can one of them be more optimized then the others without making the game unfun? Moreover, if the non-optimisers are making distinctly non-optimal choices does that mean the optimizer must limit themselves so as to not outstrip the others?

Jack Zander
2010-07-08, 03:38 PM
We have had several times widely differing power levels between players in my groups. The game was always fun and I think it was more fun with one character more powerful than the rest. I always play underpowered squishy characters who think they are fighters, charging into the front lines only to shout, "Run away!" after they drop to 1 HP after the first attack. Just how the party in LotRs had varying degrees of power between the characters and still find something for each character to do, so can your DnD sessions.

Now if the wizard is single handedly ending encounters (and I mean literally all by himself) and having the other players just sit and watch then entire night, then there is a problem.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-08, 03:50 PM
I tend to run high-power games with a high-optimization group; however, most of the group have only played a few games before, so when I DM, I always remind the players of my 3 rules on optimization:
1) Anything you can do, the bad guys can do, and there are more NPCs than PCs. If you start trying to pull infinite wish shenanigans, so will the baddies; if you go into combat buffed to the gills, so will the baddies; if you optimize one trick out the wazoo to perform way above expectations, so will the baddies.
2) This is a team game we play for fun, so your Phenomenal Cosmic Power had better be put to use for the team. I don't care how powerful you are as long as you're supporting the team, tanking, buffing, whatever; if your thousands of minions are boring the other players, or your ubercharger is stealing their glory, you're Doing It Wrong.
3) If you're above the party power level, you can and will help the other players optimize their characters. It's much more fun and usually easier to power people up than power them down, and I'd prefer to run things for a party on an even power level.
That's worked well enough for me so far.

Tengu_temp
2010-07-08, 04:03 PM
If a minority of the group is much more optimized than the majority, do this:
1. Ask the weaker majority are they okay with the stronger minority helping them build their characters and make them on pair with the optimized ones.
2. If the majority doesn't agree, tell the minority to cut down on optimization.

If a minority of the group is much less optimized than the majority, do this:
1. Ask the weaker minority are they okay with the stronger majority helping them build their characters and make them on pair with the optimized ones.
2. If the minority doesn't agree, they should stop complaining.

However! Do these only if you know for sure that the power disparacy causes problems, for example by making the underpowered players feel overshadowed. There are many groups where characters are all over the optimization spectrum, yet they play together well and everyone has fun.

Never try going around the problem by banning certain classes and such, instead of directly approaching the game. The powergamer will just find some other way to optimize and be more powerful than the rest regardless. Talk with your players, RPGs are all about mutual trust.

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 04:33 PM
I should perhaps have noted. I am not the DM. I am the optimizer. I have offered some of the other casters my help in optimising, but the only one who had a definite response was to say no, because they didn't want to outshine the noncasters.

Which might point to a lost cause since that is the default state of affairs.

molten_dragon
2010-07-08, 05:02 PM
As long as everyone is having fun, it's no big deal. I've both played in and DM'ed games in which some party members were considerably more optimized than others, and I've been on both sides of the optimization gap as a player. I've had fun in all of them, and no one really seemed to mind, with the odd minor exception here and there.

FinalJustice
2010-07-08, 05:05 PM
Yeah. Play it cool, hold back, buff everyone, the works. When you get your spotlight time, then you get to take the gloves off.

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 05:34 PM
3) If you're above the party power level, you can and will help the other players optimize their characters. It's much more fun and usually easier to power people up than power them down, and I'd prefer to run things for a party on an even power level.

Go with this one. And if that's too much work, just toss them buffs, debuff the enemy and/or send in summons to help them out with their jobs (e.g. one to help the rogue flank so he can roll his d6s, one to cover the Wizard so he can blast, and one to lock down the fighter's target so he can full attack to his heart's content.

Exthalion
2010-07-08, 05:36 PM
Now my problem becomes the DM. How to convince him of this? I know I wont abuse being much more powerful then the others, but he doesn't know that.

Math_Mage
2010-07-08, 05:41 PM
Now my problem becomes the DM. How to convince him of this? I know I wont abuse being much more powerful then the others, but he doesn't know that.

Lay down some scenarios where you could break the game, but instead play responsibly. It's the only really convincing method apart from *actually* doing so.

Aotrs Commander
2010-07-08, 05:58 PM
I tend to run high-power games with a high-optimization group; however, most of the group have only played a few games before, so when I DM, I always remind the players of my 3 rules on optimization:
1) Anything you can do, the bad guys can do, and there are more NPCs than PCs. If you start trying to pull infinite wish shenanigans, so will the baddies; if you go into combat buffed to the gills, so will the baddies; if you optimize one trick out the wazoo to perform way above expectations, so will the baddies.
2) This is a team game we play for fun, so your Phenomenal Cosmic Power had better be put to use for the team. I don't care how powerful you are as long as you're supporting the team, tanking, buffing, whatever; if your thousands of minions are boring the other players, or your ubercharger is stealing their glory, you're Doing It Wrong.
3) If you're above the party power level, you can and will help the other players optimize their characters. It's much more fun and usually easier to power people up than power them down, and I'd prefer to run things for a party on an even power level.
That's worked well enough for me so far.

Well said that man.

I have my own collory to 3), which is

3a) If you're below the party power level, and you are offered help from your fellow players and/or DM in raising up to it, you are allowed to refuse that help, but only on the proviso that you will get exactly zero sympathy from the DM and the rest of the party if you then suck.

Fortunately, my players are a good bunch and that's never actually been needed.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-08, 06:05 PM
Well said that man.

I have my own collory to 3), which is

3a) If you're below the party power level, and you are offered help from your fellow players and/or DM in raising up to it, you are allowed to refuse that help, but only on the proviso that you will get exactly zero sympathy from the DM and the rest of the party if you then suck.

Fortunately, my players are a good bunch and that's never actually been needed.

I don't need that sort of corollary for this particular group, since they came to D&D by way of Guild Wars and the like and so have no qualms about optimizing characters; the only reason I need rule 3 is that they're new and thus not as good at it yet, and with 14 people in our group playing in several campaigns at a time, I can't help everyone myself. In a group with more mixed feelings on the matter, I'd definitely add that to my list.