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Swiftest
2010-07-08, 03:39 PM
Hey all, quick question -- I have a barbarian/wildshape ranger. He gets fast movement from both classes. Do they stack and thus give him +20 on top of his base speed when wearing medium or light armor and not carrying a heavy load? What about if he somehow had monk levels (alignment restrictions aside). Would that speed bonus stack with his barbarian speed bonus?

edit: Hmm, upon further reading I really think it would. SRD: "A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet." This is clearly an untyped bonus, so unless the fact that the wildshaped ranger's fast movement is listed 'as barbarian' means they're from too similar of a source, I definitely think they should stack. I need opinions/justification though =X.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 03:41 PM
You can have a Chaotic monk (alignment changes don't lose you powers)- you just won't be able to take any more monk levels.

Swiftest
2010-07-08, 03:42 PM
You can have a Chaotic monk (alignment changes don't lose you powers)- you just won't be able to take any more monk levels.

... Not relevant to the question, but thanks for responding anyhow :D.

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 03:43 PM
I'd say it would stack.

Swiftest
2010-07-08, 03:45 PM
Even the base speed bonus from Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) and Barbarian?

arguskos
2010-07-08, 03:47 PM
Even the base speed bonus from Wildshape Ranger (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) and Barbarian?
Eh, that's up for much debate. Personally, as a DM, I'd have no issues with it, assuming you actually got Wildshape Ranger past me to start with. Still, I don't see why not, since just because something is "as" something else, doesn't make them identical nor the same source.

okpokalypse
2010-07-08, 03:54 PM
I've been in campaign's where it was ruled as stacking, and in others where it was rules as not... Here were the PoVs:

For Stacking: It's an untyped bonus of +X Feet to Base Movement. By Rule untyped bonuses stack.

Against Stacking: The ability is Fast Movement (Ex), Therefore any ability which is also named Fast Movement and is (Ex) would not stack, only the greatest value would be taken. If it stacked, the Dervish's Fast Movement +5' and subsequent Fast Movement +10' and +15' at later levels would stack for a total of +30' since each is listed separately, and not as incremental (stacking) +5' each time.

I personally take a path in-between. As long as the stacking "Fast Movement" come from PrCs, I let it stack. I won't, as a DM, allow "Fast Movement Dipping" through 4 base-classes in a 10 level progression to get +40' Move.

I also let movement increases via Feats, Domains, Mantles and such stack (obviously) since they are often untyped and not "Fast Movement."

Thus a L1 Ardent w/ Freedom Mantle and Speed of Thought and L1 Cleric w/ Celerity would have a combined +30' Movement. (Talk about a fun Psychic Theurge Wis-Based combo). Get Zen Archery to make Ranged-Touch attacks w/ Wis instead of Dex and Reach Spell and have fun you flying, super-mobile, Harming at Range bag-of-wonderful you...

Optimystik
2010-07-08, 03:58 PM
Thus a L1 Ardent w/ Freedom Mantle and Speed of Thought and L1 Cleric w/ Celerity would have a combined +30' Movement. (Talk about a fun Psychic Theurge Wis-Based combo). Get Zen Archery to make Ranged-Touch attacks w/ Wis instead of Dex and Reach Spell and have fun you flying, super-mobile, Harming at Range bag-of-wonderful you...

Make him a Xeph for an additional +30 Competence (from Burst.), 3/day. Yes, this applies to flight.

And all of the above stack with Haste/Expeditious Retreat, for yet another +30 (enhancement.) The latter is land only.

Swiftest
2010-07-08, 04:12 PM
I've been in campaign's where it was ruled as stacking, and in others where it was rules as not... Here were the PoVs:

For Stacking: It's an untyped bonus of +X Feet to Base Movement. By Rule untyped bonuses stack.

Against Stacking: The ability is Fast Movement (Ex), Therefore any ability which is also named Fast Movement and is (Ex) would not stack, only the greatest value would be taken. If it stacked, the Dervish's Fast Movement +5' and subsequent Fast Movement +10' and +15' at later levels would stack for a total of +30' since each is listed separately, and not as incremental (stacking) +5' each time.

I personally take a path in-between. As long as the stacking "Fast Movement" come from PrCs, I let it stack. I won't, as a DM, allow "Fast Movement Dipping" through 4 base-classes in a 10 level progression to get +40' Move.


Thanks, this is what I was looking for.

Edit: I should note, I just looked up Dervish for reference and the fast movement bonus listed there is an enhancement bonus, so in that particular case the fast movement bonus would always just be the highest bonus listed. Still, I see your point and it makes excellent sense to me =).

Bagelz
2010-07-09, 12:25 PM
Since one is barbarian, and one is "as barbarian" I would generally rule that you add the class levels to determine the effect. Since this is not a level dependant benefit (as monk would be) I'd say its just +10ft.

If however it progressed like monk, then i'd add the total levels together (every 3 levels is another 10ft).

its kind of like getting evasion from multiple classes. You still take half damage (not half of half)

Popertop
2010-07-09, 02:32 PM
Untyped bonus always stacks, except in this case, it has a type (as barbarian).

It's not like moving really fast has broken the game anyways.

For evasion, there are a handful of prestige classes
that say "if you already have evasion, you get improved evasion"
I think that should generally be the rule with every class that grants it.

PId6
2010-07-09, 03:35 PM
Hey all, quick question -- I have a barbarian/wildshape ranger. He gets fast movement from both classes. Do they stack and thus give him +20 on top of his base speed when wearing medium or light armor and not carrying a heavy load?
No, they would not stack. This is because of the wording of barbarian Fast Movement:


A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet.
Basically, both barbarian and Wildshape ranger would set your speed to the norm of your race + 10, so they would overlap rather than stack.

The good news is, you should be trading your barbarian Fast Movement for something sweet out of Complete Champion anyhow.


What about if he somehow had monk levels (alignment restrictions aside). Would that speed bonus stack with his barbarian speed bonus?
Yes, because monk grants an enhancement bonus to speed unrelated to your racial norms, which stacks with the untyped bonus from barbarian.

Swiftest
2010-07-11, 08:29 AM
The good news is, you should be trading your barbarian Fast Movement for something sweet out of Complete Champion anyhow.


Alas, my game is core + SRD only or I would so definitely have taken pounce. Even as it is I have whirling frenzy and wolf totem barbarian already.

Another_Poet
2010-07-11, 10:21 AM
I would consider them to be bonuses from the same source (the same class feature), so they don't stack.

This is strengthened even more by the fact that the wording is "faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet." Both allow you to be 10' faster than the racial norm. Being allowed to do that twice is... still 10' faster than the racial norm.

However as DM I would give you something to make up for i, kind of like how if you get Evasion from two different sources then the second one gives you Improved Evasion. I would probably let you have Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.

PId6
2010-07-11, 10:25 AM
However as DM I would give you something to make up for i, kind of like how if you get Evasion from two different sources then the second one gives you Improved Evasion. I would probably let you have Improved Initiative as a bonus feat.
Actually, that's not true besides for a very few select PrCs. A Rogue 2/Monk 2/Scout 5/Ranger 9/Shadowdancer 2 will still only have regular Evasion, despite gaining it five times over. Uncanny Dodge is the one that transforms if you gain it twice.