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SillyBee
2010-07-08, 04:41 PM
I do so like the dramatic titles to my threads...

I am looking for Playground assistance in creating an encounter. What kind of encounter you ask? Why a mirror match!

*crickets chirping*

Oh, SillyBee, you are too beautiful and funny and spritely. Also, what is a mirror match?

Why thank you, you are too kind. To answer your question, what I term a 'mirror match', is quite simply foils to each player character.

So, if I have a fighter and wizard as player characters, I might pit them against a barbarian and a sorcerer, respectively.

Along those lines, I am dealing with a very large party. We have the following:

Barbarian
Druid
Ranger
Monk
Cleric
Bard
Paladin
Sorcerer

All players are currently at level 5. As background this is a heavily un-optimized group. (For example the Monk took the feat Run.) They do tend to be the bash in the door type, and tend to tear through encounters on pure fact that they have more actions, but otherwise are relatively...average.

I am looking to challenge them, make them sit back and go Whoah! .

So, good foils for these player characters? Also feel free to provide environment and setting ideas. I'm open minded with this. Assume all 3.5 books are allowed with the exception of Tome of Battle. (You didn't think I'd make this that easy, did you?):smallbiggrin:

gallagher
2010-07-08, 04:48 PM
to challenge them, build the exact same character as them, but make it slightly more optimized (munchkining is a little harsh)

Flickerdart
2010-07-08, 04:50 PM
Building 8 NPCs to challenge them would take forever. Consider employing monsters for the task - a Harpy or Siren against the Bard, a Rakshasa against the Sorcerer, so on.

Marriclay
2010-07-08, 04:52 PM
For the barbarian, go with a knight! Make the Cleric fight an Ur-Priest (But be careful with that power level)! The bard should fight a rogue who specializes in silence! The paladin has to fight a blackguard! The monk should fight a chaos monk! The sorcerer should either fight a favored soul or a wizard! The Druid should fight an urban soul (Take a look at races of destiny)! I have no idea for the ranger!

hamishspence
2010-07-08, 04:52 PM
The first thing that sprang to my mind when I read the title was the Plane of Mirrors from Manual of the Planes (when you enter, it spawns an evil twin of you) and its natives, the nerras.

Though a Through the Looking Glass adventure would also fit.

AtopTheMountain
2010-07-08, 04:52 PM
Hmm... Let's see here...

Barbarian -- Fighter
Druid -- Shugenja
Ranger -- Scout
Monk -- Ninja
Cleric -- Favored Soul
Bard -- Beguiler
Paladin -- Knight
Sorcerer -- Wizard

That's the best I can come up with.

(Edit: Didn't realize you wanted actual opposites.)

Eldariel
2010-07-08, 05:09 PM
Do you want anti-thesis or "the same but opposite"? Druid <-> Aberration relationship or Druid <-> Cleric relationship?

SillyBee
2010-07-08, 06:14 PM
Do you want anti-thesis or "the same but opposite"? Druid <-> Aberration relationship or Druid <-> Cleric relationship?

Anti-thesis would be great. A great way to show the opposite of what that character stands for. Druid vs. Cleric is meh.

Nice suggestions so far, though. Keep them coming!

Lapak
2010-07-08, 06:24 PM
Though a Through the Looking Glass adventure would also fit.I must admit, this was the first thing that came to mind (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/dx20020121x8) when I saw the thread title.

Kurald Galain
2010-07-08, 06:32 PM
Barbarian - Rogue (aggressive vs. subtle)
Druid - Bard (wilderness vs. civilization)
Ranger - Wizard (instinctual vs. book learned)
Monk - Warlock (inner peace vs. deal with the devil)
Cleric - Sorcerer (spiritual power vs. own power)
Paladin - Assassin (honor vs. dishonor)

Eldariel
2010-07-08, 07:01 PM
Alright then. I'll be brainstorming assuming your guys are somewhat typical exemplars of their class; I'll need you to elaborate on what you want within these options (or outside them if you find someone else's suggestion or your own ideas better):


Barbarian

Few approaches exist. You can play up the "savage vs. civilized" and "strength vs. skill"-angle with some particularly skill-based, glamorous, calm and composed warrior. A Swashbuckler-type with Int-based combat focus. Perhaps a counterattack-based Fighter; Jack B'Quick (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19869062/6_hits_to_1:_Jack_B._Quick) would be an ur-example of that.

You could also play up the "natural vs. unnatural" and "physical strength vs. magic" with arcane magician like a Wizard or Warmage [CArc] (if you want a more fair challenge), or even more-so, with some non-combat casting based character like a Beguiler [PHBII] or an Enchantress. Beware though, the Barbarian may fast find himself outclassed here.

Of course, you could play up the "simple beater vs. cunning warrior"-angle with a Rogue-type too. Ultimately, you may want a cunning magical warrior...though best contrast is done if the counterpart fights purely with magic to point out that he doesn't simply use physical abilities at all. Finesse-based Telekinesis-user could make for a very interesting option.


Druid

This is quite simple; Druid is basically a patron of nature so you need something that either actively destroys nature (a Blighter [CDiv] would work, but they sorta suck) or is simply unnatural (Pseudonatural creatures and Aberrations are very key here; an Alienist [CArc] could make for a memorable opponent).


Ranger

I'm assuming he's the kind goody two-shoes hunter of evil type? You could make an alignment counterpart in a "coldblooded hunter"-type but that'd just be another Ranger so I'm not sure it would be too interesting. A good option could be taking his combat style and making an anti-thesis for that.

Rangers are light-armored so take some walking brick of steel to throw at him; maybe literally a Golem or something, or just a Dwarf Knight in Mechanus Gear [PlH]. Alternatively, throw the primary Favored Enemy of his against him as a sort of a Paragon of his race; depends on his FE but if he hates Drow, throw a Female Drow Cleric of Lolth at him, and if he FEs Goblins, throw a Goblin Rogue at him.


Monk

Monks are about mental discipline and mind over matter; a Barbarian could be a simple class but you could pick up some monstrous race. Orc is a simple option but something more savage and less thinking like an Ogre or some manner of Giant could also make a good chassis.

If he fancies himself a Mage Slayer of some kind, the obvious thing to do is to throw a Mage at him. You could also play up the "unarmed"-angle by throwing some Master of Exotic Weapons at him carrying a golfbag of different weapons in the Haberdash the Masked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=88633)-style. Or, as Monks have the questionable honor of being considered among the weakest classes in the game, you could toss some other character that challenges them for the honor for the same reasons, like a Soulknife [XPH], at him.


Cleric

Ur-Priest [CDiv]. For another angle, you could toss some Undead creature at him. Maybe a Necropolitan [Libris Mortis] or a Lich of some type? Something Clerics naturally are aligned against. Depending on his Domains, you could play on one of those. You could of course use an alignment counterpart to throw an opposing alignment/deity Cleric at him.


Bard

Bit harder; he's a do-it-all. You could play up that angle with a very, very focused one-trick-wonder. Maybe a Barbarian Charger of some kind? You could also toss the one thing not in his repertoire against him in a true caster, wilderness-type probably; Plant/Animal Cleric or just Druid. Spirit Shaman and Shugenja could also work.

Bards also tend to use Sound for everything so something very anti-sound could work; crystal creatures don't like Sonic damage, Whisper Gnomes have racial Silence (it's also a Divine spell if you're interested in pursuing that angle), et cetera.


Paladin

Well, the obvious option is Blackguard or Paladin of Slaughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofSlaughterClas sFeatures). Maybe on some natural Smiteable chassis like Evil Outsider for good measure. Mayhap a Succubus Paladin of Slaughter? Depending on your Pally's exact views on things like chastity, morales and so on, of course. If you don't want the real thing, you could also use Half-Succubus (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060630a).

EDIT: I really like the Assassin-angle here. You could take what I posted above and make an Assassin out of it. Succubus Blackguard can work great as an Assassin with the natural SLAs combined with Blackguard casting and Sneak Attack (albeit slow progression). The Blackguard/Pally Succubus just has delicious Charisma-synergy which is why I'm liking it.


Sorcerer

Well, there's the obvious "spontaneous caster vs. prepared caster"-angle here. That's rather dull and basic and would remind a mirror match though. You could also play up the "natural-born ability vs. learned ability" which would also lead to Wizard vs. Sorcerer. Yawn.

You could also play up things generic to arcane casting like "unnatural" (toss e.g. Druid or some manner of Fey against him?) and "dangerous" (toss some Fiend against him). Or pit him up against his heritage due to his state as a "half-breed" and toss a Dragon at him. Of course, as Sorcs tend to be rather obvious and visible, strong presences, tossing some skulking stealth type against him could be good. Mayhap an Unseen Seer? Or a Spellthief [CAdv] could be interesting too; indeed, mayhap an Unseen Seer with base Spellthief as the skill class?

SillyBee
2010-07-08, 09:05 PM
Eldariel, you are a poet and a gentleman. I'm in love.

That is perfect. I will be taking your blueprints to my painting board and see what creative juices will flow.

Thank you so much!

Lev
2010-07-08, 10:18 PM
I'm more biased towards something like 2-3 undead look-a-likes of each player attacking them in a swarm, now THAT's horror imagery.

Eldariel
2010-07-08, 11:07 PM
Eldariel, you are a poet and a gentleman. I'm in love.

That is perfect. I will be taking your blueprints to my painting board and see what creative juices will flow.

Thank you so much!

Glad to hear I did not write all that for naught. Once you've decided precisely what manner of fell beasts you wish to unleash upon your hapless players, if it seems intriguing, feel free to post your ideas here and see what we can cook up mechanically based on all that to make your players particularly miserable (and make it all the more satisfying for them, if/when they pull off a victory).

Prodan
2010-07-08, 11:09 PM
This is important!

The mirror party must have goatees.

Marriclay
2010-07-08, 11:10 PM
This is important!

The mirror party must have goatees.

or mutton chops, if one of the party already has a goatee.

Devils_Advocate
2010-07-09, 04:16 AM
I've been thinking recently, as it happens, about how two mirror parties could best be constructed out of the core classes and races. One point that becomes obvious after a while is that each character will tend to wind up with more than one opposite, because most classes are not direct analogues of each other, as Wizard and Sorcerer are.

For example, let's say that Team A contains a paladin (which makes Team A either the Good team or the non-Evil team, if we're going by alignment). Paladins can turn undead. (Maybe not very well, but I'm approaching things on a conceptual level here.) We want to give Team B someone who can turn or rebuke undead but isn't a paladin, so Team B gets a cleric. A cleric is a divine full spellcaster, and the other class that fills that role is Druid, so Team A gets a druid. And then Team B gets a ranger to cover nature-related skillz, and so Team A gets a Rogue to fill the scout role, and so Team B gets a barbarian for Uncanny Dodge and Trap Sense. Which brings us full circle, as Paladin is the other warrior class that can buff its melee attacks X times per day.

So, looking at the situation from that angle, you could try to find a different combination of classes that provides the same basic combination of abilities as the party has. Since they all have core classes, you could make it a core vs. non-core sort of thing. Alternately, you could put together just three higher-level characters using the three remaining core classes, to cover the archetypal roles of warrior, spellcaster and skill monkey (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FighterMageThief), thus making their group the more consolidated counterpart to the party. Or you could try to put together a group of monsters that has the party's abilities without any class levels. Or combine the second and third approaches to get a team like succubus, chimera, and drider.

On the other hand, if you want opposites of each class rather than analogues in terms of both form and function, then the core classes break down something like Wizard vs. Barbarian (brains vs. brawn), Fighter vs. Bard (force vs. manipulation), Sorcerer vs. Ranger (talent vs. skill), and Cleric vs. Rogue (tin can ideologue vs. sneaky bastard). The two classes in each of those pairs are about as close as possible to entirely non-overlapping.

And by looking at how other classes relate to them, further opposites may be found. Paladin is similar to Cleric, Fighter, and Barbarian; and thus its opposite is something similar to Rogue, Bard, and Wizard; i.e. Beguiler. Monk is somewhat like Rogue and Ranger, so its opposite is something somewhat like Cleric and Sorcerer, i.e. Favored Soul. As a Ranger-like Cleric variant, Druid's opposite would be a Sorcerer-like Rogue variant; probably something like Ninja or Psychic Rogue. And so on and so forth.

Lev
2010-07-20, 05:05 PM
Alternatively you could have alter ego versions that are a step sideways instead of opposing.

Cleric vs Favored Soul
Rangers vs Scout
Monk vs Ninja
Wizard vs Wu Gen
Druid vs Spirit Shaman
Sorcerer vs Shugenja
Barbarian vs Berzerker
Rogue vs Assassin
Fighter vs Warblade
Bard vs Psion