PDA

View Full Version : [E6] From Useless to the Bell(e) of the Ball!



Gan The Grey
2010-07-09, 08:17 AM
Alright playgrounders! Time to look at things through the OTHER end of the spyglass!

Many feats/class abilities/spell/ect seem rather useless/underpowered/IT'S A TRAP! in a regular D20 game. E6, however, shakes things up by almost universally limiting the power level of the setting.

Keeping this in mind, what generally undesirable build options suddenly become more worth it in an E6 game?

For example, Vow of Poverty for a monk is generally considered a trap. In an E6 game, where the average NPC level in the setting is somewhere around 1st to 3rd level and wizards aren't flying all over the place nuking kingdoms with empower/maximize/twin/repeating/cod liver oiled Orbs of Death, does Vow of Poverty suddenly become a powerful choice? A better choice? Nothing to sneeze at?

I'm looking to help discard my own assumptions about D&D to increase the funness of my E6 setting. Throw me your ideas!

Eldan
2010-07-09, 08:25 AM
I could imagine VoP being a somewhat viable, if pretty boring choice. You still lack ranged weaponry in most cases, and all the neat and creative trickery you can pull off at low levels with some treasure. On the other hand, you get pretty good boni, and it's not as if you needed a way to fly at these levels. Especially if you have a party caster taking care of the worst cases, or if the setting is low-magic.

Mongoose87
2010-07-09, 08:26 AM
Weapon Focus and Specialization become less useless, though there are, obviously, still better choices out there.

Eldan
2010-07-09, 08:27 AM
On the other hand, I could imagine that quite a few things standing in longer chains would become even more useless.

balistafreak
2010-07-09, 08:29 AM
I would argue that Vow of Poverty takes a strict nosedive in E6. Once you hit the cap (and truthfully that's the point in E6) your character has two ways to grow: bonus E6 feats and cash.

Vow of Poverty completely axes an entire half of your growth in favor of some flat bonuses that can't grow anymore since you aren't leveling. While others can keep upgrading his equipment past the standard WBL for 6th level, the VoP person is stuck with the same flat (and actually somewhat underpowered) bonuses. Epic fail.

To whit, I would argue that instead of freeing you to pick undesirable feats, E6 forces you to pick powerful feats, even if they don't match your character concept as you strictly imagine it. The solution to this is somewhere between the lines of feat pricing and homebrew, since you're playing E6 and can probably houserule away anyways... but that's aside from the point, since bringing homebrew into anything always has a wide range of possible results.

As an aside, you had me at "cod liver oiled Orbs of Death". :smalltongue:

Gan The Grey
2010-07-09, 08:32 AM
I would argue that Vow of Poverty takes a strict nosedive in E6. Once you hit the cap (and truthfully that's the point in E6) your character has two ways to grow: bonus E6 feats and cash.

Vow of Poverty completely axes an entire half of your growth in favor of some flat bonuses that can't grow anymore since you aren't leveling. While others can keep upgrading his equipment past the standard WBL for 6th level, the VoP person is stuck with the same flat (and actually somewhat underpowered) bonuses. Epic fail.


This is an exceptionally good point, and illustrates the very reason why I asked the question. I really have to press the reset button on my assumptions to run a good E6 game.

Keep it coming!

Yora
2010-07-09, 08:41 AM
I asked the same question some time ago.

I think in an E6 game, two weapon fighting becomes a really interesting choice. Unless you take all six levels in a full-BAB class, it's the best way to get more than one attack. And as it's still likely to encounter CR 1 enemies later in the game, doubling your amount of short sword strikes can make a big difference.
Same goes for Cleave and Great Cleave. Many opponents will fall after one hit, and with only one or maybe two attacks per round, that's really sweet.
If you allready have Combat Expertise and Spring Attack, I think I also would go for for Whirlwind Attack I wouldn't spend all the feats just to fulfil the prerequisites, but if you have them anyway, this feat seems great fun.

Knaight
2010-07-09, 08:45 AM
Spring Attack sucks marginally less, though you are still better off grabbing a martial maneuver or three and martial stance instead. The point above about Great Cleave is also notable, Great Cleave actually becomes half useful here, and Cleave is even more awesome than normal. Plus, their big competitor Whirlwind Attack is gone, presumably taking the worthlessness that is Dodge with it in most cases.

Also worth noting is that AC is still useful by level 6, though you will want miss chances to start filtering in, so the usually built into classes feat Heavy Armor Proficiency is worth the ink it is printed on. If you can get Exotic Armor proficiency (I don't remember the prerequisites), it is also fairly useful. Flight is also just entering, so I might consider taking Run, though it is extremely low priority.

Most tactical feats you can get are pretty awesome, and with so many feats to spare, you can also enter entire new systems decently. Tome of Battle is the obvious one, but Magic of Incarnum probably has more power bound up in it, though it is a bit pricey to enter fully. Still, outfitting your sneak attack focused rogue with the swordsage stance for extra sneak attack damage and the various totemist "I have about 10 more attacks than anyone else in the game" tricks, along with Craven is amazing.

Psyx
2010-07-09, 08:48 AM
The one that allows a caster to mem an extra spell per day of a level at least one lower than their maximum level. That probably becomes a staple.

Erm... the one that increases the monk's effective level as regards unarmed attack damage. Although that was never poor really.

Toughness? If improved Toughness can only be bought once this beomes the most obvious way of getting extra hits.

Diehard. Limited HPs mean the extra few count.

In a game that allows extra feats -which essentially this does- feats with cruddy pre-req feats become more viable. In such a game, I'm getting great use out of Elusive Target. Other tactical feats may be in the same boat. Then there's the one that requires focus and expertise and allows 5 points of DR to be bypassed.

Arcane thesis and easy metamagic as well as metamagic skill focus become essential. In fact, the only way to even use a load of metamagics mandates their use.

balistafreak
2010-07-09, 09:11 AM
The one that allows a caster to mem an extra spell per day of a level at least one lower than their maximum level. That probably becomes a staple.

Maybe. I think I'd rather spend a feat that improves all of my spells rather than gives me an extra one, but YMMV.


Erm... the one that increases the monk's effective level as regards unarmed attack damage. Although that was never poor really.

Monks are poor, though. :smalltongue:


Toughness? If improved Toughness can only be bought once this beomes the most obvious way of getting extra hits.

3 hitpoints is chump change for most classes at 3rd level, much less 6th. Improved Toughness for 6 hitpoints might be worth it for the occasional 8 Con Wizard, but barring that I'd still say not worth it.


Diehard. Limited HPs mean the extra few count.

You still have to take icky Endurance though. It's like taking a 5HP Toughness twice... so no. :smallannoyed:


In a game that allows extra feats -which essentially this does- feats with cruddy pre-req feats become more viable. In such a game, I'm getting great use out of Elusive Target. Other tactical feats may be in the same boat. Then there's the one that requires focus and expertise and allows 5 points of DR to be bypassed.

This I agree with. Cruddy pre-reqs for awesome feats become palatable. Like I said before, though, cruddy feats in general do not.


Arcane thesis and easy metamagic as well as metamagic skill focus become essential. In fact, the only way to even use a load of metamagics mandates their use.

Actually, Metamagic has always been essential, and simply becomes even more so for E6. I'd say those feats jump from "good" to "must have".

Magic of Incarnum is probably the huge one. You grab a hojillion Shape Soulmeld feats for awesome gains, and add on extra Essentia-gaining feats to fill them. E6 + Incarnum ratchets the power ceiling up by a huge distance.

Eldan
2010-07-09, 09:15 AM
Honestly, I could think of a dozen feats I'd rather take than toughness. But if I played for a few years, and got 10 extra feats or so after level six...
Yeah, toughness wouldn't be the worst thing, probably.

Optimystik
2010-07-09, 09:17 AM
Truenamers become a lot closer to being useful, since the DCs stop scaling at 39. Optimize to hit that number and you can actually use your class features.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 09:45 AM
Fighters, Monks and other classes that are underpowered (excluding NPC classes) become tons better. Dungeoncrasher Fighter becomes top notch, and tactical feats become even better, especially since most can be gotten at level 6 by full BAB characters.

I know Truenamers get better due to easier Truespeak checks, but does the Shadowcaster get better? Or the Ninja? Or the Divine Mind and Lurk? Or that one Paladin-y incarnum base class?


Also, shouldn't that be "the Belle of the Ball"?

Psyx
2010-07-09, 09:53 AM
Maybe. I think I'd rather spend a feat that improves all of my spells rather than gives me an extra one, but YMMV.

I think after playing 20 sessions at 6th level with only N number of spells per day; at some point you're going to get bored with just making that piffling number of them better, and want some more.

Likewise Toughness. It's a duff feat and always will be, but at some point those extra HP are going to start looking awfully tempting.

Whereas Arcane Thesis was always good, there's now the possibility of buying it for a large number of spells, rather than just a carefully chosen one or two.

balistafreak
2010-07-09, 10:21 AM
Likewise Toughness. It's a duff feat and always will be, but at some point those extra HP are going to start looking awfully tempting.

If I've already picked up 8 Soulmelds, feats to fill them with Essentia, and Martial Study for every Manuever in the book, then yes, Toughness would look good.

If you honestly think I'll ever get that many feats... well, it's a sweet game to have run that long. :smallbiggrin:

Tavar
2010-07-09, 10:24 AM
If you have that many Incarnum feats, it's better to take the feat that gives you +X hp per incarnum feat.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 10:28 AM
If you have that many Incarnum feats, it's better to take the feat that gives you +X hp per incarnum feat.

Same for the similar psionic feat or the aberrant feat that does that.

Optimystik
2010-07-09, 10:31 AM
Same for the similar psionic feat or the aberrant feat that does that.

Eh, Psionic Body is a turkey. Better to stack Psionic Talent imo, and pump your HP with Linked Vigor or Body Adjustment.

Speaking of which, Wilders get pretty good in E6, don't they?

Mastikator
2010-07-09, 10:31 AM
The Headless Charge + Leap Attack combo becomes incredibly nice. Especially with greater cleave and spiked chain, for taking out an entire room in a single round :P

Mongoose87
2010-07-09, 10:42 AM
The Headless Charge + Leap Attack combo becomes incredibly nice. Especially with greater cleave and spiked chain, for taking out an entire room in a single round :P

The only problem is that you finish it off without a head.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 10:43 AM
The only problem is that you finish it off without a head.

It's not a problem if you're a Hessian.

balistafreak
2010-07-09, 11:02 AM
The only problem is that you finish it off without a head.

Didn't stop this guy:

http://michaelmay.us/08blog/0403_headless.jpg

C'mon, it's totally his Leap Attack skills that took down Ichabod Crane.

Draz74
2010-07-09, 11:06 AM
Factotums have the unfortunate position of having one of their two dead levels at Level 6. So they've got to find something else to dip at some point in their careers.

Fractional BAB becomes a very important optional rule. :smallsmile:


Truenamers become a lot closer to being useful, since the DCs stop scaling at 39. Optimize to hit that number and you can actually use your class features.
All seven underwhelming class features? Woot. You don't ever get a single Perfect Map Utterance ...

As nasty as the DCs get, I actually think Truenamers are better at higher levels than at lower levels. There are endless ways to boost skill checks, and at least the Law of Sequence stops being a big issue. And yeah, those Perfect Map Utterances give you a semblance of battlefield control (and have reasonably reach-able DCs too) ...


Dungeoncrasher Fighter becomes top notch, and tactical feats become even better, especially since most can be gotten at level 6 by full BAB characters.
Yes ... wow, yes. Most tactical feats requiring +6 BAB is actually a huge reason to never lose even a single point of BAB in E6.


I know Truenamers get better due to easier Truespeak checks, but does the Shadowcaster get better? Or the Ninja? Or the Divine Mind and Lurk? Or that one Paladin-y incarnum base class?
One of the biggest problems with the Shadowcaster class in general is how its power, instead of growing steadily, takes a huge "leap" upwards at two points in its career: when it suddenly doubles all its uses of low-level Mysteries and turns them into SLAs, and later when it does the same thing with mid-level Mysteries and turns all its low-level Mysteries into [Su] abilities. Guess when the first of these "power leaps" happens? Level 7. E6 FAIL. :smallyuk:

Ninja ... only ever gets 3+WIS uses of its Ki per day. But hey, it could indeed become quite a bit more powerful, if E6 means that most of your enemies have no way to counter Invisibility. (Not a safe assumption.)


If I've already picked up 8 Soulmelds, feats to fill them with Essentia, and Martial Study for every Manuever in the book, then yes, Toughness would look good.
Sadly, Martial Study can only be taken 3 times per character.


Speaking of which, Wilders get pretty good in E6, don't they?
Yeah, Wilders and Ardents are both very feat-starved and therefore can gain a lot from E6. And Wilders probably benefit more of the two, because Wild Surge to become manifester level 8 when everyone else is stuck at caster level 6 is a pretty sweet advantage.

Ashiel
2010-07-09, 11:07 AM
Eh, Psionic Body is a turkey. Better to stack Psionic Talent imo, and pump your HP with Linked Vigor or Body Adjustment.

Speaking of which, Wilders get pretty good in E6, don't they?

But if you take Psionic Body once, then every time you take Psionic Talent you're boosting your HP and PP every time; which makes you far, far more enduring. Since you're still capped on how far you can push Vigor and similar tricks by your ML; this gets you the best of both worlds.

Because at level 6 with +20 HP (that's 1 psionic body + 4 Psionic Talents), and +14 PP is pretty cool; and combined with Vigor (+30 temporary HP), and maybe Psicrystal / Share Pain, you'll be one tough cookie to crack! :smallbiggrin:

balistafreak
2010-07-09, 11:08 AM
Sadly, Martial Study can only be taken 3 times per character.

Doh! Well, it's not as if I've ever had enough free feats to remember that little clause. :smallredface:

Grifthin
2010-07-09, 11:12 AM
What's E6 ?

Tavar
2010-07-09, 11:14 AM
DnD variant where you stop gaining levels after 6th. Instead, you only gain feats. Avoids some of the problems of higher levels.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 11:15 AM
What's E6 ?

E6 means "Epic 6". Levels of characters cap at 6, after which they simply start gaining feats rather than levels, keeping the campaing relatively low-powered. Magic items and wealth by level may still rise since you still continue to adventure and gain effective levels, stopping at roughly the power of a level 10 character.

Optimystik
2010-07-09, 11:48 AM
But if you take Psionic Body once, then every time you take Psionic Talent you're boosting your HP and PP every time; which makes you far, far more enduring. Since you're still capped on how far you can push Vigor and similar tricks by your ML; this gets you the best of both worlds.

Because at level 6 with +20 HP (that's 1 psionic body + 4 Psionic Talents), and +14 PP is pretty cool; and combined with Vigor (+30 temporary HP), and maybe Psicrystal / Share Pain, you'll be one tough cookie to crack! :smallbiggrin:

Well dang, you're onto something there. I didn't even think of combining them.
*slaps forehead*

If only they could Wild Surge and Overchannel at the same time. :smallannoyed:

Draz74
2010-07-09, 11:51 AM
But if you take Psionic Body once, then every time you take Psionic Talent you're boosting your HP and PP every time; which makes you far, far more enduring. Since you're still capped on how far you can push Vigor and similar tricks by your ML; this gets you the best of both worlds.

Yeah, I normally decry Psionic Body, but for high-level E6 it's awesome.

Malificus
2010-07-09, 12:08 PM
How good are Abyssal Heritor feats in E6?

They look pretty nice, and the fact that they buff each other sounds nice.

(for the cost of five feats, have: dr5/law, +3 nat armor, weapons you wield are chaotic and do +2d6 damage vs lawful opponents, darkvision 30ft and +5 search and spot, and you get +15 jump with slow fall)

Knaight
2010-07-09, 12:12 PM
They aren't bad by any means, I would certainly consider them among the better ones. Still, ToB and Incarnum are so tempting. Though given the potential in TWF, that +2d6 is particularly nice, as it can feasibly become +8d6 with a decent frequency in a martial class. Then there are the totemist styled attack massing strategies, and of course the fact that damage is actually still useful in e6.

Lapak
2010-07-09, 12:25 PM
Magic items and wealth by level may still rise since you still continue to adventure and gain effective levels, stopping at roughly the power of a level 10 character.Though the caster-level cap means that you gain more lower-power items rather than items actually appropriate to a level 10 character in a normal campaign, which continues the E6 trend of 'overall lower power level, broader range of abilities on any given character.'

Yora
2010-07-09, 12:35 PM
One important thing about magic item Caster Level is, that the ones printed in an items description are the default CLs, not the minimum CLs.
If you have the feat and the prerequsite spells, you can make any item, regardless of CL.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 01:38 PM
Though the caster-level cap means that you gain more lower-power items rather than items actually appropriate to a level 10 character in a normal campaign, which continues the E6 trend of 'overall lower power level, broader range of abilities on any given character.'

Not unless the items are created by a creature with a naturally higher caster level. :smallwink:

Or, alternatively, in a Gestalt E6 game some monsters could be Gestalt too, meaning they would be able to craft you those items.

Lapak
2010-07-09, 01:52 PM
Not unless the items are created by a creature with a naturally higher caster level. :smallwink:

Or, alternatively, in a Gestalt E6 game some monsters could be Gestalt too, meaning they would be able to craft you those items.Well, sure, there are exceptions, but they are exceptions. A Figurine of Wondrous Power may be a one-of-a-kind item on the scale of an artifact.

Yora
2010-07-09, 01:57 PM
Devas and Ghaele can cast the spell and all else you need is Craft Wondrous Item. So there should be a considerable number of them floating around in the multiverse. Just getting your hands on one is the complicated part. :smallbiggrin:

Pechvarry
2010-07-09, 01:59 PM
I've never played E6, but I would definitely have my eye on feats with static additions and such. For instance, Deft Opportunist giving +4 attacks on AoOs or that move in PHB2 that gives +4 on attacks after tumbling or something. W/out any specific examples, it seems like save-stacking would become viable (getting Iron Will + a feat that gives +1 to all saves + a feat that ups Will saves by 1 and some other benefit, etc)

Also, seems like UMD would be less necessary.

Lapak
2010-07-09, 02:09 PM
Not unless the items are created by a creature with a naturally higher caster level. :smallwink:

Or, alternatively, in a Gestalt E6 game some monsters could be Gestalt too, meaning they would be able to craft you those items.


Devas and Ghaele can cast the spell and all else you need is Craft Wondrous Item. So there should be a considerable number of them floating around in the multiverse. Just getting your hands on one is the complicated part. :smallbiggrin::smallyuk: Next time on Missing the Point of E6 Theatre...


...

:smallwink:

JaronK
2010-07-09, 02:14 PM
Fighters, Monks and other classes that are underpowered (excluding NPC classes) become tons better. Dungeoncrasher Fighter becomes top notch, and tactical feats become even better, especially since most can be gotten at level 6 by full BAB characters.

Dungeoncrashers get better, but Fighters get far worse. You only have 6 levels of class features to get, and you get plenty of feats... trading all your class features for 4 feats is terrible.

Snap Kick becomes much nicer, since getting lots of attacks is hard. The Barbarian's Whirling Frenzy is awesome of course, and it shouldn't be difficult to make a charger that's incredible... not that it really ever was, mind you. But an Orcish Whirling Frenzy Lion Totem Barbarian 6 with Shock Trooper, Snap Kick, Leap Attack and Headlong Rush is going to destroy everyone with his 4 attacks, each one of which could be lethal, in a game where the casters rarely have defenses that trump this.

AC based builds are likewise stronger... the shield crusader could be incredibly good. Just remember not to turtle.

JaronK

Yora
2010-07-09, 03:50 PM
:smallyuk: Next time on Missing the Point of E6 Theatre...
:smallbiggrin:

No, seriously. I think this is one of the points of E6. To get things better than +2 swords or a ring of protection +2, you have to go through so many crazy adventures, that finding one on purpose is hopeless, but getting one as reward is an incredible treasure. You can have powerful magic, it's just almost unique.

Optimystik
2010-07-09, 04:00 PM
Lurks get a mini-capstone in E6 (Int to Initiative.) They also get 4d6 sneak attack before feats, though not for very long without lots of Psionic Talent feats. (Though they'll get a lot of mileage out of those.)

As skillmonkeys though, they are still abysmal - make them mini-assassins instead.

Coidzor
2010-07-09, 04:19 PM
:smallyuk: Next time on Missing the Point of E6 Theatre...


...

:smallwink:

As I understood it, the point wasn't ever about the magic items the party had access to or would run into.

It was all about what spells the casters had, in order to limit quadratic wizards, linear warriors.

Lapak
2010-07-09, 08:59 PM
:smallbiggrin:

No, seriously. I think this is one of the points of E6. To get things better than +2 swords or a ring of protection +2, you have to go through so many crazy adventures, that finding one on purpose is hopeless, but getting one as reward is an incredible treasure. You can have powerful magic, it's just almost unique.Well, yeah, that's what I was saying above. The response being "there's X and Y and Z that could make 'em" made me think you were implying that they would be relatively common. Sorry if I misunderstood!


As I understood it, the point wasn't ever about the magic items the party had access to or would run into.

It was all about what spells the casters had, in order to limit quadratic wizards, linear warriors.In large part, but there's a reason that UMD is considered so potent as a skill, and that reason is that after spellcasting-as-class-feature, magic items are one of the key sources of power inflation. Limiting the availability of higher-level magic items is critical to maintaining an E6 power structure, in my opinion.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-09, 09:04 PM
By the way, this is incredibly nitpicking, but it's belle of the ball, as in the most beautiful woman attending the ball.

Gametime
2010-07-09, 09:22 PM
By the way, this is incredibly nitpicking, but it's belle of the ball, as in the most beautiful woman attending the ball.

Unless the OP is looking for a character good at signaling when it's midnight, thus informing all the enchanted princesses in the game that it's time to high-tail it out of there and leave a MacGuffin behind.

The Rose Dragon
2010-07-09, 09:27 PM
Unless the OP is looking for a character good at signaling when it's midnight, thus informing all the enchanted princesses in the game that it's time to high-tail it out of there and leave a MacGuffin behind.

If I was in the habit of placing quotes into my signature (yes, I know my signature is technically a quote), I would so put this in there.

Coidzor
2010-07-09, 10:24 PM
Well, yeah, that's what I was saying above. The response being "there's X and Y and Z that could make 'em" made me think you were implying that they would be relatively common. Sorry if I misunderstood!

In large part, but there's a reason that UMD is considered so potent as a skill, and that reason is that after spellcasting-as-class-feature, magic items are one of the key sources of power inflation. Limiting the availability of higher-level magic items is critical to maintaining an E6 power structure, in my opinion.

I dunno, it just seems like something that's a natural side-effect of the caster nerf and if the players are willing to go for that much shenanigans to get the magic items, well, they're paying for it one way or another.

Gan The Grey
2010-07-10, 01:06 AM
Alright dang it, I added the 'e' in the title. I was tired. Sue me. :smallbiggrin:

On the note of Toughness, I actually added a Toughness feat line to my campaign in order to allow characters more HP if they so desire.

Toughness - Add level as extra HP.
Improved Toughness - Prereq. Toughness, level 6. Add 2x level as extra HP.
Heroic Toughness - Prereq. Improved Toughness. Add 2x number of heroic feats (feats gained after level 6) as HP.

While I understand that one of main features of E6 is to limit characters from gaining exorbitant amounts of HP, I feel like if a character chooses to burn three feats to gain this much extra HP, that means they are basically specializing in HP. Like it becomes a class feature.

Morph Bark
2010-07-10, 04:38 AM
By the way, this is incredibly nitpicking, but it's belle of the ball, as in the most beautiful woman attending the ball.

Ninja'd that by about a page or so. :smallwink:

The Rabbler
2010-07-10, 01:24 PM
kinda random thought: since E6 is more humanoid-focused, wouldn't complete warrior samurai be at least a bit more useful?

Coidzor
2010-07-10, 01:39 PM
kinda random thought: since E6 is more humanoid-focused, wouldn't complete warrior samurai be at least a bit more useful?

Can probably get the Intimidate stuff up to the point where it's 95%+ effective against everything you'll encounter barring special campaign ending bosses.

Yora
2010-07-10, 04:04 PM
kinda random thought: since E6 is more humanoid-focused, wouldn't complete warrior samurai be at least a bit more useful?
That doesn't have to be that way. You can have an E6 game in which all you fight is undead or magical beasts.

The Rabbler
2010-07-10, 04:47 PM
That doesn't have to be that way. You can have an E6 game in which all you fight is undead or magical beasts.

right, but isn't one of the points of E6 to make the fantasy fighting a tad more realistic? I know that it's possible to have nothing but fear-immune stuff, but (though I have no experience to back this up with) E6 strikes me as a game in which you can involve humanoids who aren't retardedly powerful. at higher levels, high level NPCs get increasingly rare and so you face more monsters. but level 6 isn't all that difficult to achieve (at least comparatively) and it becomes easier to justify wars/bandits/town guards if the DM doesn't have to make each enemy be a veteran of countless battles.

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 04:51 PM
right, but isn't one of the points of E6 to make the fantasy fighting a tad more realistic? I know that it's possible to have nothing but fear-immune stuff, but (though I have no experience to back this up with) E6 strikes me as a game in which you can involve humanoids who aren't retardedly powerful. at higher levels, high level NPCs get increasingly rare and so you face more monsters. but level 6 isn't all that difficult to achieve (at least comparatively) and it becomes easier to justify wars/bandits/town guards if the DM doesn't have to make each enemy be a veteran of countless battles.

Putting aside that "realistic fantasy" is an oxymoron (I believe you were going for verisimilitude there) - which enemies would be expected and which ones wouldn't depends entirely on the setting. For example, a campaign set in Ravenloft with primarily humanoid enemies wouldn't be expected, because that is a predominantly undead setting. Similarly, a campaign set in Rokugan should have more humans than any other kind of humanoid.

Yora's point was that even in E6, the DM can hose an Intimidate Samurai.

The Rabbler
2010-07-10, 05:01 PM
Putting aside that "realistic fantasy" is an oxymoron (I believe you were going for verisimilitude there) - which enemies would be expected and which ones wouldn't depends entirely on the setting. For example, a campaign set in Ravenloft with primarily humanoid enemies wouldn't be expected, because that is a predominantly undead setting. Similarly, a campaign set in Rokugan should have more humans than any other kind of humanoid.

Yora's point was that even in E6, the DM can hose an Intimidate Samurai.

fair enough. I was just wanting to see if a CW samurai would be viable in at least this instance.

Gametime
2010-07-10, 05:46 PM
Samurai don't really get their useful Intimidate-related abilities until after level 6 anyway. It's not until 10th level (mass demoralize) and 14th level (as a move action) that he gets good at it.

Unless E6 lets you gain class features in place of feats after level 6? I'm not sure.

Draz74
2010-07-10, 05:58 PM
Unless E6 lets you gain class features in place of feats after level 6? I'm not sure.

It does ... on a limited case-by-case basis. Which class features are available this way (and with what prerequisites) depends almost entirely upon your DM, as "official" (original) E6 writers only spelled out a few examples (all of which were for Core classes).