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Birstel
2010-07-09, 08:33 AM
This came up in my gaming group and we couldn't find an answer:

How does reincarnate work if you come back as a race with LA? One of my players came back as a drow, the rollcame up DMs choice and we were in a temple of Lloth, and it seemed appropriate.

I didn't give him the mental bumps or the spell like abilities, since he wasn't trained to use them. Of course he got the bonus to saves versus spells and the 120 ft of darkvision.

Should he have gotten all the abilities of a drow? And if so, does he have LA that he has to pay off or deal with?

Thanks!

Birstel

true_shinken
2010-07-09, 08:35 AM
I didn't give him the mental bumps or the spell like abilities, since he wasn't trained to use them. Of course he got the bonus to saves versus spells and the 120 ft of darkvision.


Reincarnate specifically states you don't get the mental modifiers. He should get the spell-likes by RAW, though.

ToySoldierCPlus
2010-07-09, 08:37 AM
Given that you didn't give him the spell-likes, I'd say not to worry about the level adjustment. If he did get the spell-likes, then yeah, you'd probably want to put the LA on him, but I'd let him buy it off.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-09, 08:51 AM
Well, what would you do if a drow was reincarnated as a human? They'd lose all their racial features, but it's not like they'd suddenly gain class levels to make up for it.

Eldan
2010-07-09, 08:52 AM
As a Planescape-player and DM, I've seen a lot of LA characters over the years, and a reincarnation or two. Basically, the only solution I could come up with so far was throwing the table away. Then you look at the race the character has, decide which of his powers are mental and which physical, take away the physical powers and try to find another race with about the same level of physical powers.

Yes, it's complicated and DM-fiat, but I have no idea how else to do it. Otherwise? Get a race with a total of -10 to physical stats and +10 to mental, then reincarnate into an orc.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-09, 09:06 AM
Given that you didn't give him the spell-likes, I'd say not to worry about the level adjustment. If he did get the spell-likes, then yeah, you'd probably want to put the LA on him, but I'd let him buy it off.

...why? He's not getting stat adjusts, and he already lost a level from dying. Been punished enough: leave him alone.

lesser_minion
2010-07-09, 09:09 AM
I agree with Eldan here. The best way to handle the spell seems to be to fiat it and simply pick a creature that doesn't screw things over too much.

Jeff the Green
2010-07-09, 09:23 AM
I gotta agree with Fax... the LA comes from +2 INT, + 2 CHA, and SR, and the level loss makes up for the SR. Otherwise they're elves with some situationally useful SLAs and penalties in the light.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 09:27 AM
Agreed with both Eldan and Fax there. Trying to figure out LA is a hassle and should be avoided. Plus, sometimes you might otherwise just get screwed over. In one of my campaigns my Half-Fiend Drow got reincarnated into a Lolth-Touched Human for instance. In such situations you don't want to have to sit down and break your brains over it for more than an hour and slow down the game incredibly.

true_shinken
2010-07-09, 09:31 AM
[QUOTE=Eldan;8884145
Yes, it's complicated and DM-fiat, but I have no idea how else to do it. Otherwise? Get a race with a total of -10 to physical stats and +10 to mental, then reincarnate into an orc.[/QUOTE]
But reincarnate is completly random and loses you a level each time you do it. Don't think you could 'pick' which race you'd be so easily.

Aharon
2010-07-09, 09:32 AM
There are already LA-races in the table, and it doesn't mention that it's applied. I guess it's one of the rewards of using the spell - you can end up with a better body if you're lucky.
Plus, the above arguments that it isn't such a big advantage.

Eldan
2010-07-09, 09:36 AM
But reincarnate is completly random and loses you a level each time you do it. Don't think you could 'pick' which race you'd be so easily.

It's not the player doing the picking: it's the DM. It's a lot of work, though, and a fair amount of guessing.

Including a chance of ending up better or worse might be okay, though. Roll 1d20: on a 20, you get better stats, on a 1 you get worse. Or perhaps slightly bigger chances for more or less (1: -4, 2-5: -2, 6-15: 0, 16-19: +2, 20: +4)

Starscream
2010-07-09, 09:37 AM
I had to deal with something like this last campaign I was in. I made the somewhat dubious decision of playing a druid with the Woodling template, which has a +3 LA. So I lost 3 caster levels (never a very good idea), and became extra flammable. This came back to bite me.

The first time I died, I reincarnated as a dwarf (I was human before). The DM decided that I would keep my template (thus becoming a Woodling Dwarf), so there would be no need to worry about the LA. He also ruled that I would keep my human bonus feat, but not gain the dwarf bonuses that were more "cultural", like the armor bonus against Giants. This seemed like a great deal to me. My speed went down (who cares, I'm a druid), and I lost the extra human skill point (but not retroactively), but I got +2 con, a bonus to saves vs spells and poison, etc.

Then I died again and rolled human. By this point it was clear that the template had been a mistake, as I had died twice by now and nobody else had died even once. Ironic how you can nerf even one of the greatest classes in the game with a bit too much LA (and the cynical players will now say "You mean any LA").

So he said that if I preferred I could just come back as a normal human, with three extra levels of druid. Since the reincarnations were causing me to fall even more behind my teammates due to level-loss, I accepted and was much more powerful henceforth.

Morph Bark
2010-07-09, 09:40 AM
But reincarnate is completly random and loses you a level each time you do it. Don't think you could 'pick' which race you'd be so easily.

You don't lose a level when you use Last Breath to reincarnate.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-07-11, 04:28 PM
The text does seem to imply that the whole 'you might get a sucky race' balances out the 'you might get an even better race' thing. Why do I say better if you can just play said race from the beginning? Because everytime a non ECL1 race is mentioned for players in the PHB there is very redundant text about how to treat your ECL. This spell has none.

That would be a coincidence if it were not for the fact that the highest ECL race on the table is at the top (meaning its the best roll you can get). This makes sense if the ECL doesn't change besides the 1 level you are down. So you shouldn't get any RHD or LA.

Your DM is more than in his right to slap it on if he fears your leet +4str :smallwink:

gbprime
2010-07-11, 04:38 PM
Pretty much. The player isn't asking for this, so the LA should not apply. on the flip side, the DM can ignore or adjust any result they don't like. So just do it and don't apply a LA.

Besides, as was stated earlier, they're losing a level for this spell anyway. Enough of a penalty, IMO. If you come back as a centaur and that boosts your career as a ranger, so be it.

Devils_Advocate
2010-07-11, 08:34 PM
Reincarnate is a horrible spell.

It randomly screws with game balance like the Deck of Many Things. And the way that it does it doesn't even make sense. If an entirely new body is being generated, then why wouldn't new physical ability scores be rolled instead of the old ones just being readjusted for the change in race?

Its description does not provide sufficient information to implement it, like the psionic power metaconcert. It does not explain what it means for a racial ability to be "associated with a form". It doesn't even say that the reincarnated creature loses abilities associated with its old form (though it obviously should)!

Creature's physical and mental abilities are generally bundled together with no clear distinction drawn between the two. It is therefore perhaps inevitable that the various shape changing and mind swapping magic in 3.5 would generally be borked. The most troublesome spells are best tossed out entirely, really, and perhaps replaced with homebrew material. Reincarnate may not be one of the most troublesome spells, but it's troublesome enough to get rid of.

Starscream
2010-07-11, 08:48 PM
It is therefore perhaps inevitable that the various shape changing and mind swapping magic in 3.5 would generally be borked. The most troublesome spells are best tossed out entirely, really, and perhaps replaced with homebrew material. Reincarnate may not be one of the most troublesome spells, but it's troublesome enough to get rid of.

True, but unlike, say, Alter Self and Polymorph, there is considerable risk involved.

You don't reincarnate unless things are already pretty dire (you are dead, and don't have access to more reliable magic to come back). And while you might get lucky and come back as something awesome, you might also come back as something lame. And you lose a level either way.

Reincarnate may cause some problems, but it doesn't get abused much because, well, how the heck are you supposed to abuse it? Kill yourself repeatedly until you get the form you want, losing a level each time?

A smart party switches to Raise Dead or Ressurection as soon as possible. It's just not worth the risk. Casters might not care about their physical stats much (other than Con), but the classes that have the most to gain also have a lot to lose. For every barbarian that comes back as a bugbear, there are four that come back as goblins, and that sort of thing can wreck your entire build.

elonin
2010-07-11, 08:50 PM
I'd say no to the SLA's since they are not physical properties. Since the spell says physical properties only then the reincarnated drow would get the dark vision and light sensitivity and +2 dex (int and cha are mental stats). To get around the LA issues I'd let him take class levels in drow as suggested in drow of the underdark to master the other gifts.