Naruto Manga thread (Spoilers)

[Lillith]

So I looked around and saw no thread for the Naruto manga, even though there's one for Bleach. Being a Naruto fan myself, I love talking about it but seem to lack friends who also read it. I'm hoping I'm allowed to make a thread that is dedicated to the Naruto MANGA, so not the anime because that's what the Anime thread is for.

THIS THREAD WILL CONTAIN SPOILERS ABOUT THE MANGA SO DON'T READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO GET SPOILED

To start things off, lets look at the recent revelations that Kushina. The Kyuubi has only had two hosts before, both females from the same tribe and both becoming the wife of a Hokage.

Now the sealing technique that is being used to keep the Kyuubi inside his host has a weakness when the host is female. This being the cause of the problems that started 16 years ago, due to Madara's meddling. One would wonder why they didn't pick a male host instead, they don't get pregnant. :smallwink:

[Prime32]

So I looked around and saw no thread for the Naruto manga, even though there's one for Bleach.Most of the discussion took place in the NarutoITP OOC thread down in Free-Form Roleplaying. BleachITP gets some manga discussion as well.

[Grumman]

One would wonder why they didn't pick a male host instead, they don't get pregnant. :smallwink:
Or why zero out of two female hosts decided, given the risk of unsealing what might be the most powerful creature in the world, that they'd rather not have kids.

Besides that, I get the feeling that Tenten, or at least her parents, are from the Land of Whirlpools. The same goes for that puppet from the Chikamatsu.

[Obrysii]

Or why zero out of two female hosts decided, given the risk of unsealing what might be the most powerful creature in the world, that they'd rather not have kids.

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.

And having the Hokage and several others nearby to maintain the seal is generally acceptable - who would have expected a hundred-year old villain to randomly show up with the want to steal the fox?

[Grumman]

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.
A stupid mistake of this magnitude makes the hosts and their husbands less likeable. I dare say that most people head over heels in love still wouldn't risk the lives of thousands of people over something as trivial as their desire to have kids.

[Lillith]

Sometimes, when you love someone, you make stupid mistakes.

And having the Hokage and several others nearby to maintain the seal is generally acceptable - who would have expected a hundred-year old villain to randomly show up with the want to steal the fox?

Well they could expect any other villain who wants power and at least try. Seems that the onlyl thing they have to do is make sure the host doesn´t get the chance to reestablish the seal. One could kidnap the host while pregnant for example. Maybe not for the ´current´ host but in the future other Uzumaki women could have been chosen instead.

I do feel bad for Naruto though. He could have had a normal life and be good friends with Sasuke. :smallfrown:

[Maximum Zersk]

But they had guards, and were at a discrete location, weren't they? It's just that Madara was able to find them regardless.

[Frozen_Feet]

They did no mistake. The seal's weakness was a secret, location where Naruto's mom was giving birth was a secret, and they had the frellin Hokage guarding her. Madara appearing there, let alone mind-controlling Kyuubi, were rather big unknowns. Considering the caliber of person we're talking about, it's likely any number of additional security measures might have been futile, or were futile, anyway.

As for why they didn't just pick a male... lets take an honest look at the males, shall we? Gaara was crazy... Naruto has bordered on crazy... old Mizukage was rather nuts, too, if I recall right. Not a good track record, eh? Misuna was the best container for the Kyuubi, and most likely, her giving birth was mandatory to have another viable container and to keep the special chakras of Uzumaki clan in circulation. Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.

[Kato]

I'd also side with the 'acceptable risk' faction. Madara could have just as well popped up any time and killed the Jinchuriki anyway, I guess. weakened seal or not.
(Hey, are we looking for reason in Naruto here, guys? Really?!)

Also, Tobi's old mask looks kind of better than his latter, imo.

[doliest]

I know I'm about five chapters behind at the moment, but is anyone else really happy about Kabuto's re-introduction? It's nice to see someone challenge Madara's so far unquestioned position as main villain.

[Frozen_Feet]

I was very happy to see ol' four eyes again. I was sure Kishimota was going to let him lie and fade into obscurity. Also, what does that coffin contain? Dun-dun-dun!

[Lillith]

I really like Kabuto from his first appearance onward. It might have something to do with the fact that besides the long hair he'd be the type of guy (physical wise) I would get interested in. Though man ever since he did that freaky thing with those cells he just freaks the hell out of me every time I see him. :smalleek:

[Oslecamo]

They did no mistake. The seal's weakness was a secret, location where Naruto's mom was giving birth was a secret, and they had the frellin Hokage guarding her.

A "secret" location with a massive door and several Abnu standing around as neon signs that something very important was inside. Really, Naruto ninjas know as much about stealth as rampaging elephants painted with bright red paint.

In particular because the Hokage seems to have truly safe hideouts wich can be acessed only by teleportation. Why didn't he take his wife there to begin with?:smallannoyed:



Madara appearing there, let alone mind-controlling Kyuubi, were rather big unknowns. Considering the caliber of person we're talking about, it's likely any number of additional security measures might have been futile, or were futile, anyway.

Madara states himself he was planning that attack for a long time and nobody noticed anything? Really the Leaf's village security plainly sucks. Everybody and their mother enter and exit at their leisure troughout the series (Horachimaru, his minions, the sound village, the sand village, ect, ect)



Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.

By other reasons. It was already mentioned it's custom to make the containers from family members of the village leader.

[Prime32]

Misuna was the best container for the Kyuubi, and most likely, her giving birth was mandatory to have another viable container and to keep the special chakras of Uzumaki clan in circulation. Really, Naruto's heritage might have been the biggest factor in the choice to make him a Jinchuuriki.Or maybe Minato had to seal the Kyuubi fast, and Naruto was the only available host at the time.

[Oslecamo]

Or maybe Minato had to seal the Kyuubi fast, and Naruto was the only available host at the time.

Wich reminds me, the whole mess could be prevented easily by doing the following:

Madara:Muahahaha, step away or I kill your baby!
Hokage:Ok, I can make more
Madara:Muaha-Hey, what? You don't care if your kid dies?
Hokage: I care, but the risks outweight the gains. I sacrificed countless ninjas to keep this village safe. I murdered countless people to attain my position. Another one won't do much diference if it means keeping the Kyubi locked. Oh, but if you do kill Naruto, I'll use all my resources to hunt and kill you. Painfully. Teleport

This is, we're talking about the leader of a village of what basically amounts to cold blooded assassins. I would expect him to hvae become a cold logic machine by now.

[Lillith]

Wich reminds me, the whole mess could be prevented easily by doing the following:

Madara:Muahahaha, step away or I kill your baby!
Hokage:Ok, I can make more
Madara:Muaha-Hey, what? You don't care if your kid dies?
Hokage: I care, but the risks outweight the gains. I sacrificed countless ninjas to keep this village safe. I murdered countless people to attain my position. Another one won't do much diference if it means keeping the Kyubi locked. Oh, but if you do kill Naruto, I'll use all my resources to hunt and kill you. Painfully. Teleport

This is, we're talking about the leader of a village of what basically amounts to cold blooded assassins. I would expect him to hvae become a cold logic machine by now.

For one I don't think his wife would appreciate that a lot. Also I wouldn't be surprised if he was a little bit emotional at that moment and maybe not thinking completely straight.

[Frozen_Feet]

A "secret" location with a massive door and several Abnu standing around as neon signs that something very important was inside. Really, Naruto ninjas know as much about stealth as rampaging elephants painted with bright red paint.
... a secret location amidst ninja terrain, filled to brim with similar locations. About as unusual as a rampaging elephant amidst a frelling pack of rampaging elephants. Hardly as big fail as you make it to be.

In particular because the Hokage seems to have truly safe hideouts wich can be acessed only by teleportation. Why didn't he take his wife there to begin with?:smallannoyed:
Madara has shown ability to teleport and make himself intangible. Wouldn't have helped one bit against this particular adversary. This was not a case of Leaf ninjas failing, but the enemy being just that good.

Madara states himself he was planning that attack for a long time and nobody noticed anything? Really the Leaf's village security plainly sucks. Everybody and their mother enter and exit at their leisure troughout the series (Horachimaru, his minions, the sound village, the sand village, ect, ect)
Who ever said Madara ever let out a single bit of that plan slip out of his own head? Considering he's a lying liar who lies, there's no reason to assume anyone but him had any knowledge of his plan. Madara was a single person, long thought dead - for all intents and purposes, he could've just appeared from the void to do his thing. There's a limit an intelligence network can reasonably achieve.

By other reasons. It was already mentioned it's custom to make the containers from family members of the village leader.

"Ah, we have a clan whose members make perfect containers for murderous beasts. Now that we have one of the few remaining members of said clan both containing a beast and in love with our leader, lets not allow her to have kids, so this wonderful clan will die out and next time around we'll have to pick a less-than-perfect container!"

I trust you can see a problem with that plan. I brought it up because I believe there were worthwhile reasons to allow Misuna have children. After all, Naruto ninjas are all for keeping valuable bloodlines alive and in their possession.

[Oslecamo]

Madara has shown ability to teleport and make himself intangible. Wouldn't have helped one bit against this particular adversary. This was not a case of Leaf ninjas failing, but the enemy being just that good.

Madara appears trough wall.
Hokage turns on Benny Hill music.
Hokage teleports with wife and kid to another secret safe hideout.
Madara tries to pursuit with his mad skillz.
Hokage keeps teleporting around with family randomly switching locations.
Eventualy Madara ends up teleporting in the middle of a force of Abnu instead of the Hokage.

Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.:smalltongue:



Who ever said Madara ever let out a single bit of that plan slip out of his own head? Considering he's a lying liar who lies, there's no reason to assume anyone but him had any knowledge of his plan. Madara was a single person, long thought dead - for all intents and purposes, he could've just appeared from the void to do his thing. There's a limit an intelligence network can reasonably achieve.

Considering that we're talking about an intelegence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.




"Ah, we have a clan whose members make perfect containers for murderous beasts. Now that we have one of the few remaining members of said clan both containing a beast and in love with our leader, lets not allow her to have kids, so this wonderful clan will die out and next time around we'll have to pick a less-than-perfect container!"

Love is overrated. Let the container and Leader marry other people so when the crucial moment comes the Leader isn't all soft and easily manipulable.



I trust you can see a problem with that plan. I brought it up because I believe there were worthwhile reasons to allow Misuna have children. After all, Naruto ninjas are all for keeping valuable bloodlines alive and in their possession.

They're so interested that nobody bothered to tell Naruto that he was the son of the Hokage and actualy sent him in plenty of dangerous missions with little or no backup where it could have been very easy he would either get killed or the Kyubi would get out of control.

[Lillith]

Actually it was the Third Hokage who wanted to keep Naruto's lineage a secret. I'm not sure his reasoning behind it though.

[Frozen_Feet]

Considering that we're talking about an intelegence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.


Considering said magic powers have still been shown to have limitations, yes, there are. If you're taking the stance Konohagakure could've pulled just right jutsu for any conceivable situation, ie. that they're effectively 20 level wizards who just failed to think, fine. I'll counter and say Madara is 21 level wizard, who pwned them on superpower department.

It's the same situation as in Harry Potter - yes, the good guys can will things to existence, but that isn't so great when the enemies can do the same.


Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.
Judging from what Minato did do, he had this sort of plan ready. He failed the execution, there we agree. :smalltongue:

Still, I state again this was less a case of Konohagakure failing and more Madara being just that good. All other villages had 'flee on sight' order of Minato - his reputation alone would've been pretty effective defense, even / especially in the unlikely case someone knew all the information of the incident.

You have a point in that 'people in Shounen act like dimwits', but being outsmarted isn't always a sign of being stupid - sometimes its about enemy just being smarter. I'm not convinced any number of additional defenses would've stopped Madara in this case. There are also good reasons to believe he was the only one insane enough to even try - Konoha had both Uchiha and Senju (and Uzumaki), a near-monopoly for best tricks to control the beast. Releasing it has been likened to a natural catastrophe - why would've any party without 100% certainty of controlling Kyuubi even tried releasing it?

[Lillith]

Now I'm wondering though what Itachi's role in this whole thing is. The fact that they suddenly show him at the end of this chapter feels like they're foreshadowing the first contact between Itachi and Madara. Personally I wonder if this starts Itachi's distance towards his brother. As to not get attached. But then again, that whole 'kill the Uchiha' plan wasn't until later.

[AgentofOdd]

Now I'm wondering though what Itachi's role in this whole thing is. The fact that they suddenly show him at the end of this chapter feels like they're foreshadowing the first contact between Itachi and Madara. Personally I wonder if this starts Itachi's distance towards his brother. As to not get attached. But then again, that whole 'kill the Uchiha' plan wasn't until later.I thought this would actually show Itachi getting close to his brother, or have his feelings for his brother remain unchanged. I'm thinking after meeting Madara he'll conclude his clan have a power that shouldn't be wielded by anyone, but still figures his brother deserves to live for some reason. Maybe Sasuke was an especially cute baby.

Incidentally, has it ever been explained why the creator introduced the concept of elemental chakras? The whole thing always struck me as unncessary.

[Oslecamo]

Considering said magic powers have still been shown to have limitations, yes, there are. If you're taking the stance Konohagakure could've pulled just right jutsu for any conceivable situation, ie. that they're effectively 20 level wizards who just failed to think, fine. I'll counter and say Madara is 21 level wizard, who pwned them on superpower department.
...
Still, I state again this was less a case of Konohagakure failing and more Madara being just that good. All other villages had 'flee on sight' order of Minato - his reputation alone would've been pretty effective defense, even / especially in the unlikely case someone knew all the information of the incident.


But then if Madara is just so good that he can roll over all of the Leaf's village defenses, why does he need the Kyuubi at all? If he can teleport and sneak around and uncover their best secrets whitout anyone noticing anything, why don't just poison their food and slit their throats while they sleep?



You have a point in that 'people in Shounen act like dimwits', but being outsmarted isn't always a sign of being stupid - sometimes its about enemy just being smarter. I'm not convinced any number of additional defenses would've stopped Madara in this case.

Ah, yes I tend to forget for moments that's it's a shonen manga and being a named character allows you to bypass any number of nameless mooks and/or static obstacles like they weren't there thanks to the power of HOTBLOODNESS!:smalltongue:




There are also good reasons to believe he was the only one insane enough to even try - Konoha had both Uchiha and Senju (and Uzumaki), a near-monopoly for best tricks to control the beast. Releasing it has been likened to a natural catastrophe - why would've any party without 100% certainty of controlling Kyuubi even tried releasing it?

On the other hand, he's already pretty Hax by himself. Why does he needs the giant angry rampaging Fox again if Abnu are little more than speedbumps on his path? Ok, crazyness may explain that.

[Obrysii]

But then if Madara is just so good that he can roll over all of the Leaf's village defenses, why does he need the Kyuubi at all? If he can teleport and sneak around and uncover their best secrets whitout anyone noticing anything, why don't just poison their food and slit their throats while they sleep?

Brute destructive and distractive power?

[Frozen_Feet]

That's a good question with a real interesting answer... which we probably don't know, yet.

If the Moon's Eye plan has even a hint of truth in it, he needs Kyuubi to achieve world peace without murdering everyone by himself. Of course, this is something we will likely get to know as the story progresses. Whether it'll make any sense is another thing.

Then again, Madara is a lying liar who lies, and is more than a little likely to be bat**** insane. He might have done this for the lulz, just to get back at the descendant of his hated enemy.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Madara appears trough wall.
Hokage turns on Benny Hill music.
Hokage teleports with wife and kid to another secret safe hideout.
Madara tries to pursuit with his mad skillz.
Hokage keeps teleporting around with family randomly switching locations.
Eventualy Madara ends up teleporting in the middle of a force of Abnu instead of the Hokage.

The Hokage isn't simply capable of teleporting though, he can only teleport to a pre-determined location where one of those seals of his are. Now they haven't said if he can only maintain so many seals at a time, but that seems likely.

More importantly, teleporting around madly uses up Minato's chakra and it's probably extremely unsafe to do so while his wife is giving birth! When he does stop and if Madara catches up to him again, he's essentially defenseless. As opposed to getting Naruto to safety since he can just teleport right to his wife.


Really you just need a little imagination when you have super powers like teleport.:smalltongue:

Which is difficult to do when the enemy's ability to teleport is better.:smalltongue: These are not unlimited abilities either, they consume a limited resource and Uchiha are specifically noted as having more chakra then ordinary people. The chance of Minato running out of chakra before Madara is extremely high.



Considering that we're talking about an intelligence network with what basically amounts to magic powers, no, there isn't.

Considering we are talking about an intelligence network that has limited magical powers, yes, there is. The Leaf wouldn't still have an interrogation unit if they could do things like scry at will or other 'basic Bat-man wizard archtype' tricks. Their biggest tool for interrogation is ripping the memories out of a bound captive, they would still have to get the captives in question. And how are they supposed to detain a guy who walk through walls?


Love is overrated. Let the container and Leader marry other people so when the crucial moment comes the Leader isn't all soft and easily manipulable.

You try telling the leader of your village that. See what happens then. :smalltongue: I bet you the answer is 'Uhh, no?'. More importantly it's a better idea to mix the leader and container's bloodlines then to let them go apart. More importantly, if the container and Leader DO marry each other then they have each other for mutual protection. And did you consider Minato was married to Kushina before he became Hokage?


They're so interested that nobody bothered to tell Naruto that he was the son of the Hokage and actualy sent him in plenty of dangerous missions with little or no backup where it could have been very easy he would either get killed or the Kyubi would get out of control.

The why he was never told is on the Third Hokage entirely, as for why he was sent on those missions it's because Minato wanted Naruto to live a normal life (well, for a ninja anyway), Danzo wanted Naruto dead, and Elders didn't care as long as someone was keeping an eye on him. Like Kakashi, the guy they appointed temporary Hokage because he was a top-tier shinobi. :smalltongue:

[Oslecamo]

The Hokage isn't simply capable of teleporting though, he can only teleport to a pre-determined location where one of those seals of his are. Now they haven't said if he can only maintain so many seals at a time, but that seems likely.

More importantly, teleporting around madly uses up Minato's chakra and it's probably extremely unsafe to do so while his wife is giving birth! When he does stop and if Madara catches up to him again, he's essentially defenseless.

Except that unless Madara is a completely Hax character and can teleport whitout using chakra, that applies to both. Except that Madara is alone and Minato should have a whole village worth of mooks.

If Madara can use hax tecniques whitout chakra, then Minato would just be royally screwed, but we know he'll win this battle.



As opposed to getting Naruto to safety since he can just teleport right to his wife.

Yeah, after Madara had enough time to get her to other place and rip off the Kyubi. If Minato at least didn't sacrifice valuable time giving the hotbooded speech to his son...




Which is difficult to do when the enemy's ability to teleport is better.:smalltongue: These are not unlimited abilities either, they consume a limited resource and Uchiha are specifically noted as having more chakra then ordinary people. The chance of Minato running out of chakra before Madara is extremely high.

So, again, better fall back with pregnant wife to get reinforcments. I would expect Minato, as the hokage, to be able to quickly summon more meat fodder.



Considering we are talking about an intelligence network that has limited magical powers, yes, there is. The Leaf wouldn't still have an interrogation unit if they could do things like scry at will or other 'basic Bat-man wizard archtype' tricks. Their biggest tool for interrogation is ripping the memories out of a bound captive, they would still have to get the captives in question. And how are they supposed to detain a guy who walk through walls?

Well, they can detain him enough that he doesn't just walkz into the Hokage's room while he sleeps and slits his throat. We're talking about highly kept secrets anyway. Madara can't scry as well as far as far as we know.



You try telling the leader of your village that. See what happens then. :smalltongue: I bet you the answer is 'Uhh, no?'. More importantly it's a better idea to mix the leader and container's bloodlines then to let them go apart. More importantly, if the container and Leader DO marry each other then they have each other for mutual protection.

Yes that mutual protection really worked out lovely.



And did you consider Minato was married to Kushina before he became Hokage?

If he married before, it would be a point against him being chosen as the next Hokage as he would have deep emotional ties to the containers. Was the Village of Leaf so desesperate for a new Hokage? Ok, they seem to drop like flies, so can't be too picky, I'll give you that.



The why he was never told is on the Third Hokage entirely, as for why he was sent on those missions it's because Minato wanted Naruto to live a normal life (well, for a ninja anyway), Danzo wanted Naruto dead, and Elders didn't care as long as someone was keeping an eye on him. Like Kakashi, the guy they appointed temporary Hokage because he was a top-tier shinobi. :smalltongue:

And almost got taken down on their first real mission, geting locked in that bubble thingy.

[Lillith]

Also I think that if they wouldn't let Naruto go on any missions, he'd probably cause an uprising and be worse then he was in the beginning. If you think about it, it is kind of ironic. In the beginning Naruto wanted to do big missions, he couldn't wait, he wanted to fight. Though when he actually got himself in a fight or die situation, he couldn't really get himself to kill anybody.

Now that I think about it, did he ever actually kill anybody? Pain was... near death to begin with. For such a loud ninja, Naruto is actually a pretty non lethal ninja since he doesn't actually kill anybody. Instead he manages to talk the opponents out of it, or the opponent flees. Examples could be Gaara for the talking and what was Clay guys name again for the fleeing.

Btw, would Naruto be able to become Hokage while still being a Genin? Or does his new Sage status give him an exception. He's probably on Jounin levels now anyways.

[Kato]

Actually, I was going to complain we are still looking for logic and reason in Naruto's plot. but I figure it's no use. If you have fun, keep going :smallwink:

Sometime earlier someone mentioned kabuto/kabushimaru/whatveruwannacallhim. I also missed him a lot and I really hope we will have more fun with him until the end of the manga (though, I hope that's not too far away by now).
Anyway, concerning the content of the last coffin: Any bets from you? To be honest, I'm still siding with the 'Madara's real body' faction.

[VanBuren]

Now that I think about it, did he ever actually kill anybody? Pain was... near death to begin with. For such a loud ninja, Naruto is actually a pretty non lethal ninja since he doesn't actually kill anybody. Instead he manages to talk the opponents out of it, or the opponent flees. Examples could be Gaara for the talking and what was Clay guys name again for the fleeing.

Nope. Outside of Kyuubi-mode, he's only ever intended to kill two people anyway: Haku and Pain (at first).

[Lillith]

Anyway, concerning the content of the last coffin: Any bets from you? To be honest, I'm still siding with the 'Madara's real body' faction.

Maybe the Fourth´s body. He already had 1 and 2, with a 3rd coffin on the way. But yeah if he really wants to have leverage over Madara, maybe something connected to him. I still think he took over Obito´s body somehow.

[Kato]

Thanks Lillith, I was about to think I'm the last delusional person.



Nope. Outside of Kyuubi-mode, he's only ever intended to kill two people anyway: Haku and Pain (at first).

I'm not too sure... Mizuki looked rather badly back in episode 1. (Yes, I know, but I like to ignore filler. But okay, nobody ever said he was dead, so fine)
But Naruto definitely finished of Kakuzu (not that I'm holding it against him, just saying) Apart from that, yeah, he's rather fond of his friendship no justu and such.

[AgentofOdd]

Anyway, concerning the content of the last coffin: Any bets from you? To be honest, I'm still siding with the 'Madara's real body' faction.I figure it's the Sage of the Six Paths himself. I mean, if you could bring anyone back from the dead without their consent, you might as well go for the biggest fish out there.

[Frozen_Feet]

I figure it's the Sage of the Six Paths himself. I mean, if you could bring anyone back from the dead without their consent, you might as well go for the biggest fish out there.

He already had Nagato, didn't he? I believe it's someone of much greater signifigance to Madara - maybe his brother.

[Revlid]

Candidates for the final coffin!

*Madara's Brother!
*Madara's Original Body!
*Minato Namikaze, The Fourth Hokage!
*The Sage of the Six Paths!
*Jiraiya!

Personally, I think it's Gato. :smallbiggrin:

[AgentofOdd]

He already had Nagato, didn't he? I believe it's someone of much greater significance to Madara - maybe his brother.I think it was mentioned somewhere that even with the Rinnegan, Nagato's ablilties were only a shadow of the great sage's. And maybe it's just me, but the guy comes off as an individual who doesn't let sentiments hamper his goals. His hard to see how having a loved one controlled by Kabuto would sway him. Unless said loved one had the ability to kill him or something.

[Rogue 7]

He already had Nagato, didn't he? I believe it's someone of much greater signifigance to Madara - maybe his brother.

Oooh, this one I really like.

[Prime32]

I'd suspected that it was the "original Madara", assuming the current one is a ghost or imposter. Brother works too.

Orochimaru tried to resurrect the Fourth way back at the invasion of Konoha in Part I, but was prevented from doing so.

[Frozen_Feet]

I think it was mentioned somewhere that even with the Rinnegan, Nagato's ablilties were only a shadow of the great sage's. And maybe it's just me, but the guy comes off as an individual who doesn't let sentiments hamper his goals. His hard to see how having a loved one controlled by Kabuto would sway him. Unless said loved one had the ability to kill him or something.

Whoever said anything about 'love'? Madara killed his brother to steal his eyes. Now, he's saying he's just a shadow of himself. His brother was, presumably, tough ****. Maybe he's afraid of his anger? Maybe they fought way back then, and he only barely came out on the top? Maybe his brother was crazier than him?

Nagato might not have been the sage, but he had power over life and death, for pity's sake. He near singlehandedly destroyed biggest and most powerful ninja village. I don't think the original sage would trigger a much greater reaction. I just don't see raw power as impressing Madara - there must be something else to it too.

[AgentofOdd]

Whoever said anything about 'love'? Madara killed his brother to steal his eyes. Now, he's saying he's just a shadow of himself. His brother was, presumably, tough ****. Maybe he's afraid of his anger? Maybe they fought way back then, and he only barely came out on the top? Maybe his brother was crazier than him?Madara pissed off an entire society of killers. What would one additional person mean to him? In terms of strength his brother was probably around the level of Itachi. Very impressive, but Madara still played with refusing an alliance with Kabuto when faced with the possibility of fighting all the dead Akatsuki members. Like I mentioned, it's possible his brother knows how to counteract his space-time hax, but I doubt it. It just doesn't fit with the series where you beat your opponents by learning their secrets through battle. Admittedly, it might not be the Sage, but I don't think it's Madara's brother either.
Nagato might not have been the sage, but he had power over life and death, for pity's sake. He near singlehandedly destroyed biggest and most powerful ninja village. I don't think the original sage would trigger a much greater reaction. I just don't see raw power as impressing Madara - there must be something else to it too.If the story of the Sage creating the moon is true, then we're talking about a force capable of manipulating things on a continental scale. I'd be worried simply for the possibility of "rock fall everyone dies" if nothing else. Also, as the man who created the modern ninja, and studied all forms of chakra (chapter 499 hints he even utilized nature chakra), he'd probably has knowledge and skills no other ninja could have. And of course the dude could probably do everything Nagto could do, only better. Cause he lived a full life and stuff.

[devinkowalczyk]

Madara stated he was a shadow of his former self. He also was in a major fight with Minato. Combining warping jutsu and immaterial justsu (both seemingly without any kind of hand signals) leads me to believe he has passed somewhere between the worlds. Or he might be just a purely chakric energy being. He left his body somewhere and uses something similar to Nagato's black stick control technique.
So his body is somewhere, and he uses a charkric ghost puppet. Combining it with a 10 tailed beast he would be a pretty awesome chakric puppet.


Question:
is there ever an example of madara using a technique?
(i know he can't summon the multi eyed statue and needs someone linked to it)

[Zeful]

Or why zero out of two female hosts decided, given the risk of unsealing what might be the most powerful creature in the world, that they'd rather not have kids.

Besides that, I get the feeling that Tenten, or at least her parents, are from the Land of Whirlpools. The same goes for that puppet from the Chikamatsu.
I think you failed to get the point. The people of Uzu designed a seal based on willpower. By having female hosts who have children, they are given a huge boost because the child gives them something to live for.


In particular because the Hokage seems to have truly safe hideouts wich can be acessed only by teleportation. Why didn't he take his wife there to begin with?:smallannoyed:Where is this indicated? Those rooms could simply be the basement to his house or a similar location inside the village.

Also, they wouldn't do the birth there because either they are unknowns or they are inside the village. You don't do something that risky near a population center of any kind and you especially don't do it where only one person is capable of leaving/responsible for bringing in the manpower and holding back the seal. It's plain bad logistics.

[AgentofOdd]

is there ever an example of madara using a technique?In chapter 358 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/358/09/) he burrows underground to plant mines. That counts... I think. The wikia (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Madara) seems to agree.
I think you failed to get the point. The people of Uzu designed a seal based on willpower. By having female hosts who have children, they are given a huge boost because the child gives them something to live for.That imo is a terrible reason. Ninjas have a absurdly high mortality rate. A child might strengthen a mother's resolve, but what happen when said child dies in a mission?

[devinkowalczyk]

Madara debate

But there was no use of technique in the placing of land mines that I remember seeing. No handsigns, which aren't always necessary.
Curses on thee Writer for your ambiguiity!


I think he would just phase through the ground



...not even any eye techniques

[AgentofOdd]

I think he would just phase through the ground

...not even any eye techniquesHe did physically break out of the ground, so he's probably has a physical form... at least sometimes.

Wouldn't controlling the nine tails count as a eye tech? Not to mention all the sucking (into an alternate dimension) his eyes likes to do.

[Kato]

Whoever said anything about 'love'? Madara killed his brother to steal his eyes. Now, he's saying he's just a shadow of himself. His brother was, presumably, tough ****. Maybe he's afraid of his anger? Maybe they fought way back then, and he only barely came out on the top? Maybe his brother was crazier than him?

The point with his brother is interesting... the other nominees are also possible but I'd wager it's someone close to him. (Though, still more the 'Madara's body' guy)
Uhm... I can't recall the exeact chapter or episode, but I think madara said his brother gave his eyesight (more or less) voluntirally. Of course, it was Madara saying that, but Uchiha's are after all bad **** crazy.


Concerning Tobi's jutsu... no, i can't recall him ever using handsigns, but I'm rather sure he did something like this when fighting Danzou's minions. (Though, might be wrong)
About him being a ghost...meh... I dunno. Another pupeteer? Would kishi be that lame....? (Oh whom am I kidding?)

[VanBuren]

I'm not too sure... Mizuki looked rather badly back in episode 1. (Yes, I know, but I like to ignore filler. But okay, nobody ever said he was dead, so fine)

I feel like there was some throwaway reference to him being put in ninja prison or somesuch, but I'm not sure.


But Naruto definitely finished of Kakuzu (not that I'm holding it against him, just saying) Apart from that, yeah, he's rather fond of his friendship no justu and such.

He didn't kill him though. He severed every chakra cell and destroyed all but one heart, leaving him paralyzed, but he didn't kill him. Kakashi delivered the coup de grace.

[AgentofOdd]

Uhm... I can't recall the exeact chapter or episode, but I think madara said his brother gave his eyesight (more or less) voluntirally. Of course, it was Madara saying that, but Uchiha's are after all bad **** crazy.It's possible, but then you kind of have to wonder why the brothers didn't just do an exchange so they could both have the uber eyes.

[VanBuren]

It's possible, but then you kind of have to wonder why the brothers didn't just do an exchange so they could both have the uber eyes.

During the Sasuke/Itachi fight, there's a statue that appears behind Itachi as he rants about taking Sasuke's eyes. There's three sets of eyeholes on the statue, implying that the EMS uses both eyes somehow.

[Oslecamo]

During the Sasuke/Itachi fight, there's a statue that appears behind Itachi as he rants about taking Sasuke's eyes. There's three sets of eyeholes on the statue, implying that the EMS uses both eyes somehow.

I always assumed that you fuse the other dude's eyes with your own to create super eyes.

[AgentofOdd]

During the Sasuke/Itachi fight, there's a statue that appears behind Itachi as he rants about taking Sasuke's eyes. There's three sets of eyeholes on the statue, implying that the EMS uses both eyes somehow.If that's the case, then I don't think Kakashi would've been able to activate his own Mangekyo Sharingan.

[Frozen_Feet]

If that's the case, then I don't think Kakashi would've been able to activate his own Mangekyo Sharingan.

Mangekyo is not Eternal Mangekyo. Activating Mangekyo only requires killing one's love, or some such. Eternal Mangekyo is the one that requires ripping out someone else's eyes and fusing(?) them with your own.

[AgentofOdd]

Mangekyo is not Eternal Mangekyo. Activating Mangekyo only requires killing one's love, or some such. Eternal Mangekyo is the one that requires ripping out someone else's eyes and fusing(?) them with your own.I figured he had some variation of the EMS considering that he doesn't seem to suffer from loss of eyesight.

[KnightDisciple]

I figured he had some variation of the EMS considering that he doesn't seem to suffer from loss of eyesight.Well. We don't know that. Remember, only one eye would undergo that strain.

As well, he seems to only use the space warp jutsu, and even then only uses it a couple of times. He may have years before it gets bad.

Whereas Sasuke was spamming it like a crazy man as soon as he got it.

[Lillith]

Kakashi´s Mangekyo is different however you look at it. Unless for some reason Obito´s death gave him the Mangekyo early on, he has stated that he has no loved ones left. And it seems that the current cast is still around. So who would Kakashi kill, which I doubt he´d even would, to get this upgrade?

Besides that, I think there's a lack of information about how this version of the Sharingan works. Kakashi distorts time somehow, but Itachi had Susano and Amaterasu(?). Madara on the other hand has the ability to teleport and have a whole own reality, but we can't see if this is jutsu or Sharingan/Mangekyo abilities.

If we knew what the standard Mangekyo was, then we could spot which ones are the 'fakes'. Either way, Itachi's abilities are real and so is Sasuke's, though he 'inherited' a power from Itachi so that's kind of confusing too.

[Prime32]

On Kakashi's Sharingan: http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kamui

[VanBuren]

Kakashi´s Mangekyo is different however you look at it. Unless for some reason Obito´s death gave him the Mangekyo early on, he has stated that he has no loved ones left. And it seems that the current cast is still around. So who would Kakashi kill, which I doubt he´d even would, to get this upgrade?

Besides that, I think there's a lack of information about how this version of the Sharingan works. Kakashi distorts time somehow, but Itachi had Susano and Amaterasu(?). Madara on the other hand has the ability to teleport and have a whole own reality, but we can't see if this is jutsu or Sharingan/Mangekyo abilities.

If we knew what the standard Mangekyo was, then we could spot which ones are the 'fakes'. Either way, Itachi's abilities are real and so is Sasuke's, though he 'inherited' a power from Itachi so that's kind of confusing too.

^So much this. Kakashi can't be used a a barometer for the MS, because everything we know about how it's obtained makes it unlikely for Kakashi to have yet. And yet he does, so there's not enough to go on.

[Frozen_Feet]

Um... you're forgetting one thing.

Who was the first one to call Itachi out for losing his eyesight? That's right, Kakashi. This rather strongly hints he knows the phenomena, and likeliest way he knows it by is having trained and used it himself.

As for him 'not having loved ones left', maybe that's exactly why he has Mangekyo in first place. He's a war veteran and has seen all his friends die - maybe it is not required a person kills them by himself.

[VanBuren]

Um... you're forgetting one thing.

Who was the first one to call Itachi out for losing his eyesight? That's right, Kakashi. This rather strongly hints he knows the phenomena, and likeliest way he knows it by is having trained and used it himself.

As for him 'not having loved ones left', maybe that's exactly why he has Mangekyo in first place. He's a war veteran and has seen all his friends die - maybe it is not required a person kills them by himself.

Or maybe--and admittedly a total shot in the dark--Kakashi got his by overcoming the Uchiha curse of hatred rather than succumbing to it.

[Kato]

Wow, the topic keeps shifting...

EMS are created by fusing eyes? Hm... I'd wager not, but of course I don't know. I just assumed it was just some magical transplant phenomena.
As for why Madara and his baby bro didn't exchange eyes, I guess Madara's were too screwed up already. (Don't ask me why Sasuke is getting Itachi's useless eyes then, I'm not writing the manga. Other explanation would be Madara not wanting his bro with EMS or him lying about getting the voluntarily or whatever...)

On Kakashi's eyes... I have no idea either. I also assume they're skills aren't that different since it's a space-time-jutsu similar to Madara's, but very different from the brothers. We haven't seen Madara using either Susanoo or Amaterasu so far, so maybe that's something only normal MS do, where EMS are space-time oriented (which would imply Kakashi has EMS but then one would wonder how that works. Maybe because his were transplants from (his soul brother :smalltongue:) Obito. Another explanation would be Kishimoto having no f****ing idea what he's doing.)
On how he got them... I don't know if we will ever know but I always assumed he felt responsible for the death of (possible multiple) loved ones of his which is enough. Or he really activated them in another manner, like overcoming his hatred. (Actually, I kind of can't remember: whom did madara kill to activate his again?)

[Prime32]

(Actually, I kind of can't remember: whom did madara kill to activate his again?)IIRC, Madara just says that he and his brother attained the Mangekyo Sharingan without going into details.

[VanBuren]

IIRC, Madara just says that he and his brother attained the Mangekyo Sharingan without going into details.

Our only source about killing your closest bond comes from Itachi, right? The same Itachi who was manipulating Sasuke into fighting him and (presumably) into taking his eyes for the EMS?

Perhaps this was just some line Itachi fed us.

[Prime32]

It's also possible that Madara tampered with the information on the Sharingan written in that temple in order to deceive Sasuke (and possibly Itachi, though he would be harder to fool).

Heck, maybe there's no text which can only be read with the Rinnegan, and he just used genjutsu to make Pain think there was.

[Revlid]

Yeah... I mean, how did Kakashi get his?

I'm honestly surprised we've yet to get a quick look at that, whether through Flashback or a Gaidan-style look at what everyone was doing during the timeskip.

I'd quite like a Gaidan-style sidebook on the events of the timeskip, actually. Just so long as Shikamaru and Sakura acted mainly as background characters, and Kakashi showed up basically to show us how he got his eye. That way we can have a look at Chouji, and Lee, and Kiba, and Ino, and Neji, and Shino, and Asuma, and Gai, and Hinata, and Kurenai, and Iruka, and Team Konohamaru (Ebisu included), and Sai, and Anko, and Ibiki, and Shizune, and Those Two Guys (you know the ones), and Hanabi, and Genma, and Ichiraku, and poor Yugao.

Speaking of her, we could have a look at how Sand was shaping up during the Timeskip, on Gaara's reconciliation with his siblings, and his campaign to become trusted, and how Baki reacts to his student's change of heart, and how Yugao reacts when she realises she can't, legally, kill the guy who killed Hayate. Or we could cast the net further afield, see the Tailed Beasts. Were most of them treated like Naruto and Gaara? Worse, or better, as with Bee and Yugito? How did their fights with Akatsuki go down? IIRC, this was the period when the new Mizukage was taking power, too - how did that happen?

Hell, going back even further - we don't want to go all Bleach, but a look at the early days of some of the Akatsuki members would be awesome. Some of it's detailed in the databooks or mentioned in the manga, but I'd love to see Deidara's Joker-esque move into terrorism to sate his desire for artwork, or Kakuzu's battle with the First Hokage, followed by his village's betrayal and his subsequent decision to go both independent and totally bugf*ck insane. Or Kisame's days with Zabuza and Raiga in the Seven Swordsman, maybe delving a bit into Suigestu's past (meeting Mangetsu would be cool). I suspect Hidan is essentially a more bishie Astaroth, but confirmation or otherwise would be interesting. Sasori's fight with the Third Kazekage, or his construction of the standard puppets would be awesome, and could even be worked into any look at Suna, especially if Kankuro shows up. These guys are dead, it's not like it's plot-critical.

Even a couple of landscaped double-pages showing off the cool parts of each country and/or village would be superspecialawesome. It's all setting-fluff, but it's awesome setting-fluff that I could do with, personally. Plus, setting-fluff and visual design are the things I find Kishimoto consistantly does right.
If you noticed I didn't mention Tenten, you got the joke. Isn't it sad?

[Lillith]

Hmmm, while some of those things sound really interesting to witness, I think that it would not be very smart if the story has even more flashbacks. Remember, we´re in a flashback right now. Though I would like it if it was explained how Kakashi got his Mangekyo, if it even is a Mangekyo.

[devinkowalczyk]

I would advocate another Gaiden, but like the last one there needs to be some break in the story. Just shoving it in there willy nilly would break continuity. Maybe there will be another time skip or severe break (eg: naruto nearly dieing). I think time skip would be out, Naruto and Sasuke have nearly reached their limits and would just grow to ridiculous levels beyond even Sanin levels if they kept up at their pace.

[Lillith]

Well I suspect Naruto either dying or nearly dying anyways. I mean, come on, having Ten Tails out there is too good to pass up. We don't even know what it looks like. Obviously the Tailed Beasts are going to be all caught and then fused into one being. We've seen that it's possible to survive the extraction, Naruto's own mother did that! So Naruto is probably going to lose the Kyuubi in the future, Killer Bee will probably just die and then Naruto has to fight either Madara or Sasuke, though my guess is Madara, with his newfound Ten Tails friend.

Maybe Naruto will somehow seal the Kyuubi back in him again, maybe not, but the Ten Tails just has to make an appearance.

[AgentofOdd]

Well I suspect Naruto either dying or nearly dying anyways. I mean, come on, having Ten Tails out there is too good to pass up. We don't even know what it looks like. Obviously the Tailed Beasts are going to be all caught and then fused into one being. We've seen that it's possible to survive the extraction, Naruto's own mother did that! So Naruto is probably going to lose the Kyuubi in the future, Killer Bee will probably just die and then Naruto has to fight either Madara or Sasuke, though my guess is Madara, with his newfound Ten Tails friend.

Maybe Naruto will somehow seal the Kyuubi back in him again, maybe not, but the Ten Tails just has to make an appearance.I'm thinking once the Ten Tails is reborn, the only way to fight the thing will require a member of the Senju, and Uchiha clan (aka. Naruto and Sasuke) to work together to reseal it since neither clan inherited all the abilities of the Great Sage. That'll probably be the moment Sasuke finally stops being a revenge driven ass. Kishimoto will probably also make the whole thing mildly homoerotic, which would please the yaoi fans to no end. Unfortunately, this means Sasuke is going to be an annoyance for a very long time.

[devinkowalczyk]

Yea, that might end up being some kind of tacky ending, or an odd side story. The defeating of the 10 tales (which was shadowed/semirevealed in the History of Ninja) would require to people who hate each other to work together. If they became friends after that again, then poo on that.

[Delusion]

I always wondered if that Juubi tablet has third text for those who have Byakugan. But that is possibly a popular fan theory? ^^

[Morph Bark]

I always wondered if that Juubi tablet has third text for those who have Byakugan. But that is possibly a popular fan theory? ^^

That would be a fourth text, since there is one for Sharingan, one for the Mangekyou and one for the Rinnegan. Still, it makes me wonder how the Byakugan fits in with the other two doujutsu. Sure, earlier it was said that the Uchiha descended from the Hyuuga, but that was just a tale and never got its end tied up and made truth.

I agree that it's looking too good right now to not get the Juubi out there. I also kinda liked seeing Sasuke as a baby. The flashbacks in Naruto are awesome, and at least better than dragging on boring parts of the story for too long, or to give a break during a lengthy fight -- we don't want it to become like DBZ or Bleach with regards to the fights.

[Lillith]

Well to be honest, I´ve been wanting to know for a while what happened 16 years ago. Like what was Minato thinking by sealing the Kyuubi into his own son? What happened to his mother? I was thinking he used the same technique as was used on Gaara, but that can't be because the technique was the same as the Third used. Also I did not expect Naruto's mother to be a host. Actually I thought the Kyuubi had been free up till then. Though that might just be me not paying enough attention.

[VanBuren]

Well to be honest, I´ve been wanting to know for a while what happened 16 years ago. Like what was Minato thinking by sealing the Kyuubi into his own son? What happened to his mother? I was thinking he used the same technique as was used on Gaara, but that can't be because the technique was the same as the Third used. Also I did not expect Naruto's mother to be a host. Actually I thought the Kyuubi had been free up till then. Though that might just be me not paying enough attention.

No, there being a host is new information.

[Kato]

I'm thinking once the Ten Tails is reborn, the only way to fight the thing will require a member of the Senju, and Uchiha clan (aka. Naruto and Sasuke) to work together to reseal it since neither clan inherited all the abilities of the Great Sage. That'll probably be the moment Sasuke finally stops being a revenge driven ass. Kishimoto will probably also make the whole thing mildly homoerotic, which would please the yaoi fans to no end. Unfortunately, this means Sasuke is going to be an annoyance for a very long time.
(emphasis mine)

You are kidding, aren't you? Kishimoto is already as far from Shounen-ai as... as... damn, now I can't come up with an explanation. But honestly, there are so many more or less subtle Sasunaru stuffies especially lately, mildly homoerotic would ba quite a step back. (Note: I don't care for either. I'd just be amused if he will ever openly admit to their guy-love)


On another note, I'm also sure Juubi will show up at some point, probably after Naruto kicked reason into Sasuke, Madara will use Juubi's power and Naruto and Sasuke join forces to beat them. It would be... yeah, it's what is to be expected and kishimoto seldem dissppoints his fans when it comes to being rather predictable.

[AgentofOdd]

Yea, that might end up being some kind of tacky ending, or an odd side story. The defeating of the 10 tales (which was shadowed/semirevealed in the History of Ninja) would require to people who hate each other to work together. If they became friends after that again, then poo on that.Oh, I agree. Even in a best case scenario where the ninja and samurai community mostly forgive him for his crimes (possibly for being instrumental in stopping Madara), Naruto would've hopefully matured enough to realize that after all this time he no longer knows who Sasuke is, and that at he probably tried to save him as an ultimate test of his beliefs rather than as an act of friendship.

A really optimistic ending would have the two back in Konoha and slowly rebuilding their relationship/friendship, but I imagine the series will be darker and either have Sasuke flat out die a hero, or have him become a burned out individual that wants nothing to do with any ninjas.


You are kidding, aren't you? Kishimoto is already as far from Shounen-ai as... as... damn, now I can't come up with an explanation. But honestly, there are so many more or less subtle Sasunaru stuffies especially lately, mildly homoerotic would ba quite a step back. (Note: I don't care for either. I'd just be amused if he will ever openly admit to their guy-love)Oh, Kishimito aint so bad. Take Hunter x Hunter for example. Imagine if Sakura and Kakshi didn't exist and Sasuke was a desperately lonely person looking for meaningful companionship. Then you'd get the relationship between the two main protagonists. And of course both are nothing compared to Get Backers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Get_Backers), where the creator admitted he's a yaoi fan.

I think the Naruto and Sasuke share/shared a platonic brotherly love. Especially since neither one of them seem to be all that interested in the male body. Sai, on the other hand... Obsessed with penises and considers girls to be icky? Yeah...

[devinkowalczyk]

I was mistaken!
The most recent manga shows madara making the common hand sign (tiger?) when releasing the Kyubi.
And apparently he can be hurt; I wonder how bad.
Maybe that was the reason he wore the braces at his intro?

[Lillith]

While I find Itachi caring for Sasuke absolutely cute, those lines under his eyes always give off something... sinister. Like he doesn't mean it.

Also apparently space-time jutsu is a common thing in this world. This battle is probably going to be interesting if both Madara and Minato can use it. And it's good to see the Third again. =)

[Revanmal]

On Kakashi's Mangekyo:

It is not the act of killing one's own blood or best friend that allows one to attain the Mangekyo, but the grief such an act causes. The emotional duress and psychological pain of doing such a despicable thing triggers the transformation. Perhaps Kakashi suppressed his grief for Obito until after the time skip, or the emotional pain needed to trigger the Mangekyo occurred via some other means.

That's my theory anyway.

[golentan]

While I find Itachi caring for Sasuke absolutely cute, those lines under his eyes always give off something... sinister. Like he doesn't mean it.

Really? To me they always looked sad and tired. Like he's seen and done too much.

[AgentofOdd]

Odd thing about this, and all battles with Madara doesn't seem to involve genjitsu. Not to mention he doesn't seem to use the EMS. I'm guessing he's missing an eye, and this is screwing with his abilities?

And I agree with Lillith the scene with Itachi is disturbing. Especially since we know what his definition of protect is.

[Delusion]

Odd thing about this, and all battles with Madara doesn't seem to involve genjitsu. Not to mention he doesn't seem to use the EMS. I'm guessing he's missing an eye, and this is screwing with his abilities?



During Sasuke vs Itachi fight, the aloe vera (or whatever his name was) mentions that the left eye of MS has the most powerful genjutsu and the right is the one that has the most powerful ninjutsu. And madara is missing the left eye, so.

[Frozen_Feet]

On Kakashi's Mangekyo:

It is not the act of killing one's own blood or best friend that allows one to attain the Mangekyo, but the grief such an act causes. The emotional duress and psychological pain of doing such a despicable thing triggers the transformation. Perhaps Kakashi suppressed his grief for Obito until after the time skip, or the emotional pain needed to trigger the Mangekyo occurred via some other means.

That's my theory anyway.

Again, I think the simplest explanation is that Mangekyo only requires death of loved ones, not necessarily killing them. Kakashi is a jaded war veteran who said himself his friends have all died, many in very gruesome situations if Obito is anything to go by.

Now, some wild speculation:

As to why Kakashi didn't achieve Mangekyo before timeskip - it seems something crucial about achieving it is hidden in the Uchiha temple. Most likely, he didn't know he was capable of attaining it.

But wait! Along comes Itachi, and uses Mangekyo Sharingan on the poor fellow. What is the most basic ability of Sharingan? That's right, copying techniques. Yes, I know they said it can't copy bloodlines, but in this case, Kakashi has, for all intents and purposes, the bloodline required to use the jutsu. Thus, witnessing Itachi's Mangekyo Sharingan allowed him to finally attain it himself.

[Prime32]

Interesting. "Tobi" never calls himself Madara, it's Minato who says that. Maybe he just decided to run with it.

[Kato]

While I find Itachi caring for Sasuke absolutely cute, those lines under his eyes always give off something... sinister. Like he doesn't mean it.

I like Itachi but in that one panel wen he says something along the lines 'I will protect you' his whole face to me says 'It's good you are a baby and can't tell anyone of the evulz spawning from my grin'. Okay, maybe it's just me, but I think something just went wrong there... *shrug*


@Prime:
Hm... depends on what you are implying. Him not being the same person we know in the present might be possiblem, though I think there aren't that many people with similar flushing-no-jutsu. Tobi admitting on not being Madara in general... he said so often in the future, I think. So I don't know why he'd not tell the Fourth (unless he is Obito and doesn't want to lie to his sensei *cough*)


on something else: was there an earlier mention of the Second's Space-time jutsus? (and does someone else think it will ever be used again?)

[Closet_Skeleton]

Also apparently space-time jutsu is a common thing in this world. This battle is probably going to be interesting if both Madara and Minato can use it. And it's good to see the Third again. =)

Except for the fact that people were able to identify Minato by it. Just Madara and Minato doesn't mean "common".

[Lillith]

Except for the fact that people were able to identify Minato by it. Just Madara and Minato doesn't mean "common".

Well I don't mean common as in everybody can use it. But as in something that is attainable by some means. Common enough that it has a name and the Fourth didn't invent it. Also Kakashi seems to be able to use it too. :smallsmile:

[Frozen_Feet]

Uh... fourth might have very well invented it. In fact, considering he's one of the best known people in the world, people seeing the jutsu and immediatly linking it with him could support this.

Also, if it indeed is attainable to everyone (at least in theory), this means Madara know each and every space-time jutsu Minato used in their fight. Scary thought, ain't it?

[Prime32]

Also, if it indeed is attainable to everyone (at least in theory), this means Madara know each and every space-time jutsu Minato used in their fight. Scary thought, ain't it?:smallconfused: Why would that be?

[Frozen_Feet]

:smallconfused: Why would that be?

Sharingan. If they're not based on a bloodline, we can conclude Madara could, at least in theory, replicate each jutsu he witnessed with his copy-wheel eye. I'm surprised you had to ask.

[Revanmal]

The category of space-time jutsus also includes summons, since space-time jutsus are essentially ways to teleport, whether yourself or other things. Since just about every competent ninja knows about summons, one can assume they at least know of the existence of space-time jutsus as a whole.

As for Madara using the Flying Thunder God technique by copying it from Minato, the FTG is seal-based, and I don't know of anything to suggest Sharigan allows you to instantly read and understand seals.

[Prime32]

Sharingan. If they're not based on a bloodline, we can conclude Madara could, at least in theory, replicate each jutsu he witnessed with his copy-wheel eye. I'm surprised you had to ask.Sharingan can't copy everything that easily, it just lets you find the "trick" to it. When Sasuke copied Lee's Lotus techniques, for instance, he could only mimic Lee's physical movements and not his opening of the Gates.

A lot of the exposition on the Sharingan turns out to be false information to confuse enemies, like when Kakashi told Zabuza that it could copy any technique instantly and see into the future (Kakashi already knew those techniques, and Zabuza was under a subtle genjutsu) or the rumours about it being a mutant form of the Byakugan. Heck, Sasuke can't even really see through Naruto's Shadow Clones, just track the movement of the original.

[Callos_DeTerran]

on something else: was there an earlier mention of the Second's Space-time jutsus? (and does someone else think it will ever be used again?)

It's probably referring to the summoning part of the Edo Tensei technique.

[Frozen_Feet]

Sharingan can't copy everything that easily, it just lets you find the "trick" to it. When Sasuke copied Lee's Lotus techniques, for instance, he could only mimic Lee's physical movements and not his opening of the Gates.

A lot of the exposition on the Sharingan turns out to be false information to confuse enemies, like when Kakashi told Zabuza that it could copy any technique instantly and see into the future (Kakashi already knew those techniques, and Zabuza was under a subtle genjutsu) or the rumours about it being a mutant form of the Byakugan. Heck, Sasuke can't even really see through Naruto's Shadow Clones, just track the movement of the original.
From what we've seen, I'd say Sharingan can copy everything just that easily. Its limit is that it doesn't give the user physical necessities to follow through. This is why it fails at copying bloodlines or gate releases - just because you know how to punch through a stone wall doesn't make you strong enough to do so.

This is why I said 'in theory'. Madara might lack chakra or stamina to actually use the copied techniques, but I don't think it's a stretch to say he knows them.


As for Madara using the Flying Thunder God technique by copying it from Minato, the FTG is seal-based, and I don't know of anything to suggest Sharigan allows you to instantly read and understand seals.

Sharingan gives colors to chakra, allows reading texts normally people can't even see, gives photographic memory, allows copying handwriting with ease... even if Madara didn't instantly understand the seal, he could've reasonably reverse-engineered it from memory.

Unless, like summoning pacts, the jutsu has an element ulterior to the actual jutsu. There you do have a point. If using FTG requires writing your name to a special ledger or drinking magical mushroom tea in a secret hideout, then copying seal on Minato's dagger would be useless to Madara.

[AgentofOdd]

During Sasuke vs Itachi fight, the aloe vera (or whatever his name was) mentions that the left eye of MS has the most powerful genjutsu and the right is the one that has the most powerful ninjutsu. And madara is missing the left eye, so.Well, yes, but Madara isn't using any genjutsu just teleportation techs. If he did have any genjutsu it would've been wise to hit the Fourth with it before trying his absorption ability.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sharingan gives colors to chakra, allows reading texts normally people can't even see, gives photographic memory, allows copying handwriting with ease... even if Madara didn't instantly understand the seal, he could've reasonably reverse-engineered it from memory.

Unless, like summoning pacts, the jutsu has an element ulterior to the actual jutsu. There you do have a point. If using FTG requires writing your name to a special ledger or drinking magical mushroom tea in a secret hideout, then copying seal on Minato's dagger would be useless to Madara.

Actually, I would say the Sharingan can't copy anything. Sasuke wasn't able to copy Lee's taijutsu until he saw it in action, and only then what he had seen. I can't support this idea, since it's only a theory, but I don't think the Sharingan can copy a jutsu just be seeing the jutsu. The Sharingan actually needs to see the handsigns, and the like, to know how to perform the jutsu. Which is why Kakashi made specific reference that he'd seen the handsigns to Zabuza's water clone before the mist obscured him.

In other words, the sharingan can look at a technique and tell the user it's tricks, but unless he sees the handsigns he isn't capable of performing it himself. Otherwise Sasuke could have learned the Rasengan during the multiple times that Naruto has used it and created a 'Raiton-shuriken Rasengan' a long time ago.

[VanBuren]

Actually, I would say the Sharingan can't copy anything. Sasuke wasn't able to copy Lee's taijutsu until he saw it in action, and only then what he had seen. I can't support this idea, since it's only a theory, but I don't think the Sharingan can copy a jutsu just be seeing the jutsu. The Sharingan actually needs to see the handsigns, and the like, to know how to perform the jutsu. Which is why Kakashi made specific reference that he'd seen the handsigns to Zabuza's water clone before the mist obscured him.

In other words, the sharingan can look at a technique and tell the user it's tricks, but unless he sees the handsigns he isn't capable of performing it himself. Otherwise Sasuke could have learned the Rasengan during the multiple times that Naruto has used it and created a 'Raiton-shuriken Rasengan' a long time ago.

Pretty much, I think it's been established that the Sharingan can copy any physical action that its user is physically able to replicate. So in order to copy jutsu it copies the hand-signs.

[Lillith]

That makes me wonder if there's not something more to jutsu though. It's nice if you can just copy handsigns but if you know nothing about the technique or the element, then it shouldn't go that easy?

[VanBuren]

A lot of that knowledge can be derived from the handsigns. During their first bell-training, Sasuke recognized a handsign as being the Tiger, and assumed that Kakashi was about to pull out a fire jutsu. He wasn't, of course, he was just using his finger-poke attack, but Sasuke had reason to believe that a certain sign indicated something.

[Xondoure]

Also I think that if they wouldn't let Naruto go on any missions, he'd probably cause an uprising and be worse then he was in the beginning. If you think about it, it is kind of ironic. In the beginning Naruto wanted to do big missions, he couldn't wait, he wanted to fight. Though when he actually got himself in a fight or die situation, he couldn't really get himself to kill anybody.

Now that I think about it, did he ever actually kill anybody? Pain was... near death to begin with. For such a loud ninja, Naruto is actually a pretty non lethal ninja since he doesn't actually kill anybody. Instead he manages to talk the opponents out of it, or the opponent flees. Examples could be Gaara for the talking and what was Clay guys name again for the fleeing.

Btw, would Naruto be able to become Hokage while still being a Genin? Or does his new Sage status give him an exception. He's probably on Jounin levels now anyways.

I might be a little late on this, but the chunin and junin exams seem to be for times of peace in the shinobi world, in war you gain ranks by the strength you offer in protecting your village and defeating it's enemies... at least to my knowledge.


EDIT:
Hmmm... as much as I love the time skip I'm curious to see what Naruto will do once he has bested the ninetails. The foreshadowed fox-sage mode is looking to be incredible.

[AgentofOdd]

Chapter 503 is out.

Well, that was a depressing chapter, and I imagine it'll only get worse. Not quite sure if I understand Minato's rationale for sealing the Nine Tails into another host. I'll probably question his decision to leave his son an orphan for quite some time.

On a trivial note, Naruto sure grows hair quickly for a newborn.

[VanBuren]

Chapter 503 is out.

Well, that was a depressing chapter, and I imagine it'll only get worse. Not quite sure if I understand Minato's rationale for sealing the Nine Tails into another host. I'll probably question his decision to leave his son an orphan for quite some time.

On a trivial note, Naruto sure grows hair quickly for a newborn.

Madara needs the Nine-Tailed Demon Fox in order to carry out his plan, and given how he waited until Kushina's seal failed, he probably can't control it unless it's free and not bound to a jinchūriki.

Kushina's plan was to re-seal the Fox inside her and die, which she implies would be temporary, which would allow Madara to control it again in the future. Minato's main plan is to use the Dead Demon Consuming Seal to permanent seal away as much of the Fox as possible, but even he can only seal about half of it. Additionally, Minato believed that Naruto would be able to turn that same power against Madara in the future. Lastly, leaving Konoha without a tailed beast would leave it at a severe disadvantage when compared to other nations, specifically Kumogakure.

The orphan thing was an unfortunate side-effect of the process of sealing.

[Frozen_Feet]

Most interesting tidbit was, indeed, implication that a killed Bijuu would reincarnate at some point. This raises some interesting questions about Kyuubi's relationship with Naruto.

[Prime32]

Most interesting tidbit was, indeed, implication that a killed Bijuu would reincarnate at some point. This raises some interesting questions about Kyuubi's relationship with Naruto.Just because death isn't permanent doesn't mean the fox likes dying. Heck, the new fox could be a different entity to the old one with none of its memories.

[AgentofOdd]

Kushina's plan was to re-seal the Fox inside her and die, which she implies would be temporary, which would allow Madara to control it again in the future. Minato's main plan is to use the Dead Demon Consuming Seal to permanent seal away as much of the Fox as possible, but even he can only seal about half of it. Additionally, Minato believed that Naruto would be able to turn that same power against Madara in the future. Lastly, leaving Konoha without a tailed beast would leave it at a severe disadvantage when compared to other nations, specifically Kumogakure.Minato's prophetic logic was dubious as all heck. That's what bugs me. Konoha seemed to do just fine with the world not knowing they still had a jinchūriki. From the looks of things, the jinchūriki are great for mass destruction, but they tend to be too dangerous to use. And when they're used, there always seems to be a ninja who's capable to either attacking the jinchūriki's mind, or have some other clever tactic that makes all that energy useless.

[VanBuren]

Minato's prophetic logic was dubious as all heck. That's what bugs me. Konoha seemed to do just fine with the world not knowing they still had a jinchūriki. From the looks of things, the jinchūriki are great for mass destruction, but they tend to be too dangerous to use. And when they're used, there always seems to be a ninja who's capable to either attacking the jinchūriki's mind, or have some other clever tactic that makes all that energy useless.

Honestly, that didn't seem like the cornerstone of his reasoning. Reading it again, it felt more like he went from thinking "Stop the Fox" >>> "Seal it so Madara can't use it" and then to, well if we have to seal it then it might as well be one of our guys, so the other nations don't have this kinda power. Even if Konoha was never going to use it, that wouldn't mean that another nation would hesitate to. So making another Konoha jinchūriki is pragmatic, even if only to keep the Beast out of circulation.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Honestly, that didn't seem like the cornerstone of his reasoning. Reading it again, it felt more like he went from thinking "Stop the Fox" >>> "Seal it so Madara can't use it" and then to, well if we have to seal it then it might as well be one of our guys, so the other nations don't have this kinda power. Even if Konoha was never going to use it, that wouldn't mean that another nation would hesitate to. So making another Konoha jinchūriki is pragmatic, even if only to keep the Beast out of circulation.

This. Sunagakure has proven willing to experiment with jinchuuriki (ala Gaara) while Kumogakure has had the most success in making jinchuuriki actually useful for combat (See Nii and Killer Bee, who actually tamed his). There's no info given on how well Iwagakure or Kirigakure handled their jinchuuriki, except for the almost throwaway comment about how the jinchuuriki of the Mist was...almost sedated. Probably because Madara was there part of the time.

If the Fox WAS allowed back into circulation, the village possessing it would almost invariably try to put it to use to varying degrees of effectiveness. Or Madara would just take it back. Either way it's a grave danger to Konoha, and by extension his son, to leave the Fox without a container. Meanwhile if he trusts to his wife's bloodline and his own genetic potential to contain and control the Fox it not only makes Naruto the best possible host but also the most likely to be able to control it (with the proper measures). Course, this paints a big ass target on Naruto but I suppose Minato had faith his son would be able to overcome it with his own determination and the fox.

[AgentofOdd]

I suspect that putting the nine-tails into his son wasn't the original plan. From the looks of things, his priority was to subdue the fox. It wasn't until Kushina bounded the fox herself, and stated her intentions of (temp) murder suicide that he decided on his path to use his son. I think it's possible he could've kept the fox on a leash until another more suitable host could be found. If his wife could bind that thing, he certainly could. Hence why I question his logic of using his son in the first place.

[Closet_Skeleton]

It does seem a bit like Minato decided to kill himself by using the demon seal "just because".

Apparently, Naruto only has half of the Kyubi's power. So is that other half lost for good, seriously screwing over Madara's plans?

Basically, Minato could have survived, he just saw giving his son superpowers and two get out of jail free cards to be more important.


In other words, the sharingan can look at a technique and tell the user it's tricks, but unless he sees the handsigns he isn't capable of performing it himself. Otherwise Sasuke could have learned the Rasengan during the multiple times that Naruto has used it and created a 'Raiton-shuriken Rasengan' a long time ago.

Sasuke copying Rasengan wouldn't help him at all. Rasengan and Chidori are equally powerful and Minato created both anyway. The whole point about the combined technique is that nobody can use it and Naruto can only use it by cheating.

[Oslecamo]

Just because death isn't permanent doesn't mean the fox likes dying. Heck, the new fox could be a different entity to the old one with none of its memories.

The kyubi does remember having being controled by the sharrigan once. It mentions it when Sasuke uses his hax eyes to keep it down when Naruto tries to "rescue" him.

Also agree with Closet_Skeleton that Minato kills himself "just because". If anything his wife's sacrifice would've bought enough time to get a better solution instead of leaving his son an orphan. But hey what's an hero whitout an extra-tragic past right? :smallannoyed:

[Callos_DeTerran]

Sasuke copying Rasengan wouldn't help him at all. Rasengan and Chidori are equally powerful and Minato created both anyway. The whole point about the combined technique is that nobody can use it and Naruto can only use it by cheating.

Actually they aren't equally powerful, Naruto and Sasuke were. If you remember the battle on the hospital roof when they were both flung into a water tower, you see Sasuke all snarky-happy because he made a slightly bigger hole in the front of it. Then he went around the back and saw Rasengan had blown out the back of the one it had hit while Chidori...didn't even scratch the back of it.

Is Sasuke more skilled in Chidori's use then Naruto? Maybe. He had at least a month's head start on Naruto once Naruto had finally gotten the trick (read: Cheating) of it down. Is Chidori more powerful then Rasengan? Not by a long shot. It's why Naruto keeps using what are, essentially, bigger variations of Rasengan while Sasuke developed entirely new techniques. Because Chidori was good at the time, but wasn't going to keep cutting it.

[Prime32]

Minato didn't create Chidori, Kakashi did as part of his failed attempt to create a Lightning-Element Rasengan.


Just because death isn't permanent doesn't mean the fox likes dying. Heck, the new fox could be a different entity to the old one with none of its memories.The kyubi does remember having being controled by the sharrigan once. It mentions it when Sasuke uses his hax eyes to keep it down when Naruto tries to "rescue" him.Yes, but it was never killed. What's your point? :smallconfused:

[Obrysii]

I cannot wait for the filler to show the Third Hokage fighting the Kyuubi.

I really hope we get even a short backstory on him - to explain why he is the 'God of Shinobi' and considered the most powerful Hokage.

(Note: Minato had the potential to surpass Hiruzen Prime, and may have surpassed Old Hiruzen.)

[Prime32]

He was pretty powerful even when he was old. He chained multiple powerful elemental jutsu without tiring, could summon the freaking Monkey King, and defeated two Hokages and Orochimaru by himself. On occasion he was seen scrying distant locations with the aid of a crystal ball, and having a technique as situational as "Roof Tile Shuriken" implies an even larger repertoire. They even gave him his own battle theme music in the anime.

[VanBuren]

It does seem a bit like Minato decided to kill himself by using the demon seal "just because".

Apparently, Naruto only has half of the Kyubi's power. So is that other half lost for good, seriously screwing over Madara's plans?

It might prevent Madara from reuniting the Ten-Tailed Beast, or--since the Fox still exists, just not as strong--the Beast might be weaker. Either way, it's a moot point because Minato didn't know anything about Madara's plan. All he knew was that Madara would still have been able to use the Fox to harm Konoha, so he did the best thing he could to protect the village, even though it meant putting a burden on Naruto that Minato knew he could endure.

[AgentofOdd]

Apparently, Naruto only has half of the Kyubi's power. So is that other half lost for good, seriously screwing over Madara's plans?I believe Minato blocked access to half of the fox's chakra through his seal, and the rest was sealed simply by making Naruto into a tailed host. The energy is all still there, and I imagine Naruto will be able to access it all when Naruto vs. Sasuke pt 4 rolls around.


It might prevent Madara from reuniting the Ten-Tailed Beast, or--since the Fox still exists, just not as strong--the Beast might be weaker. Either way, it's a moot point because Minato didn't know anything about Madara's plan. All he knew was that Madara would still have been able to use the Fox to harm Konoha, so he did the best thing he could to protect the village, even though it meant putting a burden on Naruto that Minato knew he could endure.I'm not sure if what he did was the best. The fox was subdued by Kushina, and I'm reasonably certain the Fourth could've tied him up even longer especially with the help of the Third. With additional reinforcements from the Jounin, I don't see why they couldn't delay things a bit longer until they could find a better host for the Fox. And lets face it, anyone is a better choice than a newborn baby. I mean, even Naruto admits he may very well have ended up like Garra if there wasn't at least one person who showed him true kindness. Creating a potential emotionally tortured tyke bomb is hardly what I'd call protecting the village. It was sheer hubris on Minato's part.

[Zeful]

I believe Minato blocked access to half of the fox's chakra through his seal, and the rest was sealed by simply by making Naruto into a tailed host. The energy is all still there, and I imagine Naruto will be able to access it all when Naruto vs. Sasuke pt 4 rolls around.This goes against what has been explicitly stated by Jiraya. Naruto only has the Yin (spiritual, feminine, "dark", etc.) half sealed in him. The Yang (physical, masculine, "light", etc.) half is currently unaccounted for in it's entirely (and given that Minato says that the Dead God Seal can't take the entirety of the fox, I'm betting that the other half is in permanent limbo along with Kin, Zaku, The Third and Orochimaru's arms).


I'm not sure if what he did was the best. The fox was subdued by Kushina, and I'm reasonably certain the Fourth could've tied him up even longer especially with the help of the Third. With additional reinforcements from the Jounin, I don't see why they couldn't delay things a bit longer until they could find a better host for the Fox. And lets face it, anyone is a better choice than a newborn baby. I mean, even Naruto admits he may very well have ended up like Garra if there wasn't at least one person who showed him true kindness. Creating a potential emotionally tortured tyke bomb is hardly what I'd call protecting the village. It was sheer hubris on Minato's part.
The only other option would have allowed for The Kyuubi to escape and fall back into the hands of Madara eventually, and since Kohona lacks the single bloodline that would have allowed them to recapture The Kyuubi (Tenzo was made after Minato's death, I think) it would have left them without anyone to capture the Kyuubi long enough to seal it. With that in mind, Naruto was related to the last host, who has a genetic component that allows her to suppress the Fox, Naruto was the best option for a host. Had Hizuren released Naruto's Jinchuriki status, as well as the information that the seal is based on host's will power, Naruto probably wouldn't have been so alone.

You can't blame Minato for the Third being an idiot.

[AgentofOdd]

The only other option would have allowed for The Kyuubi to escape and fall back into the hands of Madara eventually, and since Kohona lacks the single bloodline that would have allowed them to recapture The Kyuubi (Tenzo was made after Minato's death, I think) it would have left them without anyone to capture the Kyuubi long enough to seal it. With that in mind, Naruto was related to the last host, who has a genetic component that allows her to suppress the Fox, Naruto was the best option for a host. Had Hizuren released Naruto's Jinchuriki status, as well as the information that the seal is based on host's will power, Naruto probably wouldn't have been so alone.

You can't blame Minato for the Third being an idiot.Hmm.. seems you are correct about the Fox's chakra.

The fourth seemed pretty sure he could hold down the fox temporarily, so recapture would be unnecessary. I don't recall anyone claiming that Naruto's bloodline was the only one capable of holding the Fox. At best he might be a better candidate from a biological perspective. Of course, there's no certainty he inherited his mother's chakra.

Naruto being a host was an open secret in the village. That's why the kids shunned him by emulating their parents. Had the kids known that he was a potential monster, I think his life would've been even worse.

[Prime32]

(and given that Minato says that the Dead God Seal can't take the entirety of the fox, I'm betting that the other half is in permanent limbo along with Kin, Zaku, The Third and Orochimaru's arms).I now have an image of Orochimaru's arms floating through limbo, randomly groping people who have been subjected to the seal.

[Zeful]

The fourth seemed pretty sure he could hold down the fox temporarily, so recapture would be unnecessary. I don't recall anyone claiming that Naruto's bloodline was the only one capable of holding the Fox. At best he might be a better candidate from a biological perspective. Of course, there's no certainty he inherited his mother's chakra.All true, but I still maintain the prospective that Naruto was the best candidate in the village for being a host of the Fox.


Naruto being a host was an open secret in the village. That's why the kids shunned him by emulating their parents. Had the kids known that he was a potential monster, I think his life would've been even worse.

Had the adults known that Naruto's seal gained strength the happier he was, kids that picked on him would be severely reprimanded for it.

[AgentofOdd]

Had the adults known that Naruto's seal gained strength the happier he was, kids that picked on him would be severely reprimanded for it.I don't recall love playing a factor in the seal. Besides of course giving someone a reason to try harder and live. Any ideas where you read this from? It doesn't really fit with the tailed hosts being ostracized in all the villages.

[Little Bo Peep]

I don't recall love playing a factor in the seal. Besides of course giving someone a reason to try harder and live. Any ideas where you read this from? It doesn't really fit with the tailed hosts being ostracized in all the villages.

Not love, but happiness. Whenever Naruto has been upset or angry the Kyuubi's influence is greater. Naruto has never used the foxes power when he was happy.

Unless you count when he was pushed over a cliff by Jiraiya.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Not love, but happiness. Whenever Naruto has been upset or angry the Kyuubi's influence is greater. Naruto has never used the foxes power when he was happy.

Unless you count when he was pushed over a cliff by Jiraiya.

I doubt that Naruto wasn't upset when he was pushed off a cliff. Considering he wasn't told in advance and it was basically a 'fly or die' situation. I doubt, just as much that he was 'happy' as he was plummeting to his death either.

[VanBuren]

I'd argue that the seal is weakened by stress and not by any individual emotion.

[Kato]

Okay, I was going to say the first Jinchuriki told Kushina sommething along the lines 'If you are loved, you're seal won't break (will be strong/you will be able to withstand the Kyubi, whatever)' but it seems I was wrong. She makes an offhand comment on 'filling the vessel with love' (shut up, pervs) but doesn't specify if it strengthens the seal. Seems i was wrong *shrug*

Anyway, I woulnd't specifically say the seal is strong when the host is happy, and weak when sad, but since the seal can break when the host is in mortal danger or the like keeping him safe wouldn't be a bad idea and noone caring for Naruto was just stupid. But... yeah, whatever...

[Math_Mage]

This goes against what has been explicitly stated by Jiraya. Naruto only has the Yin (spiritual, feminine, "dark", etc.) half sealed in him. The Yang (physical, masculine, "light", etc.) half is currently unaccounted for in it's entirely (and given that Minato says that the Dead God Seal can't take the entirety of the fox, I'm betting that the other half is in permanent limbo along with Kin, Zaku, The Third and Orochimaru's arms).


Nah, it conveniently ended up in someone else's body, and that someone else will show up at some point. Fridge logic ftw! :smalltongue:

[VanBuren]

Okay, I was going to say the first Jinchuriki told Kushina sommething along the lines 'If you are loved, you're seal won't break (will be strong/you will be able to withstand the Kyubi, whatever)' but it seems I was wrong. She makes an offhand comment on 'filling the vessel with love' (shut up, pervs) but doesn't specify if it strengthens the seal. Seems i was wrong *shrug*

Anyway, I woulnd't specifically say the seal is strong when the host is happy, and weak when sad, but since the seal can break when the host is in mortal danger or the like keeping him safe wouldn't be a bad idea and noone caring for Naruto was just stupid. But... yeah, whatever...

The impression I got from her comment was that if her life is filled with love, then it would be a good life despite being a host.

"...ultimately, we were brought here to become the vessel of the Nine-Tailed Fox... but before the beast can be housed... we must fill the vessel with love. Do that, and even the host of the Nine-Tailed Fox may lead a happy life."

That's how my translation reads anyway. It sounded like it had more to do with making for a healthy host than a seal.

[Zeful]

The impression I got from her comment was that if her life is filled with love, then it would be a good life despite being a host.

"...ultimately, we were brought here to become the vessel of the Nine-Tailed Fox... but before the beast can be housed... we must fill the vessel with love. Do that, and even the host of the Nine-Tailed Fox may lead a happy life."

That's how my translation reads anyway. It sounded like it had more to do with making for a healthy host than a seal.

That's how mine read, but I recall someone (Jiraya I think) explaining how the seal works, and it's held in place by Naruto's will power.

[devinkowalczyk]

I think the Fox's chakra has just returned to the environment. Since if a Jinchuriki dies the beast will die, and then be reborn in the world due to *something*.

[Zeful]

I think the Fox's chakra has just returned to the environment. Since if a Jinchuriki dies the beast will die, and then be reborn in the world due to *something*.

The Fox will reincarnate if killed, but the fox hasn't been killed.

[Little Bo Peep]

I think the Fox's chakra has just returned to the environment. Since if a Jinchuriki dies the beast will die, and then be reborn in the world due to *something*.

Are you referring to the Yang chakra?

[devinkowalczyk]

Are you referring to the Yang chakra?

Yes, since half of the chakra is sealed, that leaves the other half in open space. Since there is no corporeal body to allow it to manifest, there is no demi-fox.
So, half of the fox is sealed away, and the other half has returned to the enviornment in a lucid form.


Just a theory, based on western views and some leaps of faith

[Zeful]

Yes, since half of the chakra is sealed, that leaves the other half in open space. Since there is no corporeal body to allow it to manifest, there is no demi-fox.
So, half of the fox is sealed away, and the other half has returned to the enviornment in a lucid form.


Just a theory, based on western views and some leaps of faith

Except based on what we know about the Dead God Seal, both halves of the fox are sealed, one in the stomach of the God of Death (along with Kin, Zaku, the Third and Fourth Hokages, and Orochimaru's arms), the other in Naruto.

[devinkowalczyk]

Except based on what we know about the Dead God Seal, both halves of the fox are sealed, one in the stomach of the God of Death (along with Kin, Zaku, the Third and Fourth Hokages, and Orochimaru's arms), the other in Naruto.


Just to be nit picky
what do we know about the Dead God Seal?

We know whoever uses it to seal someone is left in eternal combat with whatever they seal with them
which doesn't make any sense since Naruto has been described as having a different kind of seal holding the fox
ahhh i need details help!

[VanBuren]

Just to be nit picky
what do we know about the Dead God Seal?

We know whoever uses it to seal someone is left in eternal combat with whatever they seal with them
which doesn't make any sense since Naruto has been described as having a different kind of seal holding the fox
ahhh i need details help!

Naruto holds half the Fox, and the Dead Demon Consuming Seal holds the other half because Minato didn't have enough chakra to seal the entire Beast.

[AgentofOdd]

That Dead God Seal is a weird jutsu. I wonder how Minato managed to manifest himself inside Naruto's... soul? mind? when he's supposed to be trapped. Not to mention Kushina mentions wanting to rejoin him, which is a rather grim prospect if they're going to be locked in eternal combat. I'm thinking Minato's is somehow a clue to freeing the various knick knacks stuck inside the Death God's tummy.

[devinkowalczyk]

What do we really know about the Death God Summoning. It has been mentioned and used by the third and the fourth. there was talk about being locked away forever in combat, but how can anyone really know

if everyone is killed, who is there to spread the stories?



Where does it say that about how he locked it away with him in the stomach and the other half in naruto?


what does it mean that his consciousness, or part of his consciousness, was able to escape or be imparted into naruto?

[VanBuren]

Where does it say that about how he locked it away with him in the stomach and the other half in naruto?

It's been mentioned a couple times about the Yang being sealed in Naruto, and Minato talks about only being able to seal half of it with the Dead Demon Consuming Seal.[/QUOTE]

[devinkowalczyk]

If 9 tails is reached, the fox is released.
So the chakra could be drawn out from the Dead God Seal? To recreate the fox. Gotta have all the parts

[VanBuren]

If 9 tails is reached, the fox is released.
So the chakra could be drawn out from the Dead God Seal? To recreate the fox. Gotta have all the parts

So far the evidence would seem to be that he'd be the Nine-tails but half as powerful?

Yeah, OK. The implications are confusing as hell.

[devinkowalczyk]

Is manga, specificaly naruto, a kids story, teen, or adult?

I mean, the depth that could be explored by each level would really help limit the ridiculousness of arguments

[Math_Mage]

Is manga, specificaly naruto, a kids story, teen, or adult?

I mean, the depth that could be explored by each level would really help limit the ridiculousness of arguments

Shonen manga are for young adult males. Think 12-15, though the audience as a whole is broader than that, of course. Manga in general can run the gamut from 5-year-olds to 50-year-olds, male or female or both.

[VanBuren]

Shonen manga are for young adult males. Think 12-15, though the audience as a whole is broader than that, of course. Manga in general can run the gamut from 5-year-olds to 50-year-olds, male or female or both.

Although would the average 12-15 year old catch the parallels between Pain's worldview and village destroying powers and the atomic bomb?

Actually, if any country had youth capable of making that connection it would be Japan.

[Zeful]

So far the evidence would seem to be that he'd be the Nine-tails but half as powerful?

Yeah, OK. The implications are confusing as hell.

I don't think so, the implications of having the Yang energy missing does tend to create some weird things (Nartuo getting his stamina and regeneration from that being one of them, the Akatsuki being unable to remove the Fox from Naruto and put it in their statue for another). But the worst implication is that for the fox to be released from Naruto, he has to stop existing on a fundamental level. Unlike Kushina, where the fox was sealed in total inside her, allowing her to survive it's removal, Naruto will be consumed by the Fox in order to build a new body that can exist independent of Naruto's chakra system.

[VanBuren]

I don't think so, the implications of having the Yang energy missing does tend to create some weird things (Nartuo getting his stamina and regeneration from that being one of them, the Akatsuki being unable to remove the Fox from Naruto and put it in their statue for another). But the worst implication is that for the fox to be released from Naruto, he has to stop existing on a fundamental level. Unlike Kushina, where the fox was sealed in total inside her, allowing her to survive it's removal, Naruto will be consumed by the Fox in order to build a new body that can exist independent of Naruto's chakra system.

So Naruto becomes a sort of replacement Yin?

[Math_Mage]

Although would the average 12-15 year old catch the parallels between Pain's worldview and village destroying powers and the atomic bomb?

Actually, if any country had youth capable of making that connection it would be Japan.

If a Japanese adolescent couldn't make the connection between Pain and Hiroshima, I would be utterly shocked. But that's, y'know, kinda verging on the real world, so I won't keep going.

[Zeful]

So Naruto becomes a sort of replacement Yin?

Replacement Yang, but yes.

[VanBuren]

Replacement Yang, but yes.

Naruto already has the Yang sealed inside him.

[Little Bo Peep]

Naruto already has the Yang sealed inside him.

Wait, I thought the Yin chakra was sealed in him?

[Zeful]

Wait, I thought the Yin chakra was sealed in him?

It is. The Yang half is currently unaccounted for.

[VanBuren]

It is. The Yang half is currently unaccounted for.

Er... no. It's the other way around (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/)

As for the Yin, it is accounted for. It's sealed away with Minato.

[Little Bo Peep]

Er... no. It's the other way around (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/13/)

As for the Yin, it is accounted for. It's sealed away with Minato.

Ah, my bad, just got confused somewhere along the way.

[Revlid]

You know, there are a lot of fanfics and fanart in which the Kyuubi is revealed to be female, with a corresponding attractive "human form", who then proceeds to act as a lover or big sister or mother figure to Naruto. Some rather good ones, at that (applying Sturgeon's Law, of course).

Of course, the Kyuubi sealed in Naruto is very male, and not particularly caring. I have to wonder though... The "Yang" half of the Chakra is presumably representative of "male", not to mention "hot" and "bright".

What would have happened if Naruto had the "Yin" half of the Chakra sealed within him, instead? Hm...

Or was his gender as a male the reason for the Yang Chakra being used? If Minato had had a daughter instead, would he have sealed the Yin Chakra in her?

[Prime32]

Seems more like you'd seal Yang chakra in someone who's strongly Yin...

but Naruto's personality is anything but Yin.

[devinkowalczyk]

A good question
but one that probably won't be dealt with until there is needs to be a filler spot in the anime episodes.

Maybe there will come a time when he can transfer the other half into someone else?
Or draw fully from both parts equally?

[Kato]

A good question
but one that probably won't be dealt with until there is needs to be a filler spot in the anime episodes.

Maybe there will come a time when he can transfer the other half into someone else?
Or draw fully from both parts equally?

Oh gods, please no!

Hu? What other half? The one that is trapped in some hell dimension cleft thingie with sandaime and Orochimaru's arms? Would be quite a stuns pulling that out and putting it into somebody. (But hey, it would also be a chance to rescue the other lost souls, so I'd don't mind)

[Revlid]

Seems more like you'd seal Yang chakra in someone who's strongly Yin...

but Naruto's personality is anything but Yin.
Maybe that's why? I mean, it's not like you can exactly judge a baby's character. Naruto has only the massive Yang of a demon sealed inside him, and he grows up to be pretty damn Yang. Maybe he'd be mellower or more sensitive if he had had the Yin sealed inside him. Maybe Minato didn't want no nancy-boy son.

[VanBuren]

Oh gods, please no!

Hu? What other half? The one that is trapped in some hell dimension cleft thingie with sandaime and Orochimaru's arms? Would be quite a stuns pulling that out and putting it into somebody. (But hey, it would also be a chance to rescue the other lost souls, so I'd don't mind)

I'm sort of OK with that, because we've only heard information about the seal second-hand. We've never heard from anyone who's used the seal because, well, it's a one-use thing.

[Little Bo Peep]

Chapter 504 is out. (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/71771778/1)

What do you guys think?

[KnightDisciple]

Chapter 504 is out. (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/71771778/1)

What do you guys think?I almost cried, especially at the end.:smallfrown:

Also, there aren't enough lethal Jutsu in the world to kill Madara a sufficient number of times.

[VanBuren]

I loled a bit when Naruto neglected the mention punching his father. Other than that though, I feel like it gives a sense of closure. For most of the series, the fact that he was a jinchūriki has been shown as a terrible burden and almost a curse of some kind--indeed, most other villages have been portrayed as turning their jinchūriki into living weapons instead of people.

The transition has been in progress for some time now, but this chapter sort of caps it off IMO and now the effect is totally reversed. Far from being a curse, the fact that Naruto is jinchūriki instead represents all that his parents have entrusted him with, including their love.

Just as comparison, take the first chapter when Mizuki claimed that Naruto was the Fox and compare it to now.

[Prime32]

:smallfrown:

[Little Bo Peep]

Also, there aren't enough lethal Jutsu in the world to kill Madara a sufficient number of times.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.
Hopefully with the Kyuubi's power Naruto will at least give him a good and satisfying kick in the backside.



I loled a bit when Naruto neglected the mention punching his father.

"Why did you seal the fox inside your own son!? Do you know how much trouble it's caused me?!"

"I never blamed either of you."

You little liar Naruto :smalltongue:

[KnightDisciple]

Eh. I don't think there's a huge conflict their. The first line was spoken at probably the single crappiest moment of his existence. Both of his senseis were killed by this guy, his village just got wrecked, and a totally hot chick just became the first person (that we've seen) to tell him "I love you", outside of his first few hours of life (which...he can't really remember). His dad had just pulled him back from the brink.

And it is kind of a legitimate question.

But while he's questioned it, I'm sure, he doesn't seem to carry any true blame towards them. *Shrugs*

[VanBuren]

Eh. I don't think there's a huge conflict their. The first line was spoken at probably the single crappiest moment of his existence. Both of his senseis were killed by this guy, his village just got wrecked, and a totally hot chick just became the first person (that we've seen) to tell him "I love you", outside of his first few hours of life (which...he can't really remember). His dad had just pulled him back from the brink.

And it is kind of a legitimate question.

But while he's questioned it, I'm sure, he doesn't seem to carry any true blame towards them. *Shrugs*

No, no. I get that. I'm just saying that I had a good chuckle juxtaposing Naruto claiming that he never blamed his parents with the picture of him sucker-punching Minato.

[KnightDisciple]

No, no. I get that. I'm just saying that I had a good chuckle juxtaposing Naruto claiming that he never blamed his parents with the picture of him sucker-punching Minato.Fair enough. It's definitely a bit funny.

But any funny in the chapter is overridden with the sad. :smallfrown:

[devinkowalczyk]

Interesting new developments
should be finishing up the control training in the next two unless they split to Sasuke and his new eyes.
Kind of wrap the two of em up at once

[Revlid]

This was an honest-to-god Tearjerker of a chapter, but the moment I read the line "You filled me up with love before you put the nine-tails in me!" I both d'aaawed, and then started making innuendos. "And Shikamaru filled Temari up with love after he put his one-tail in her, if you know what I mean."

[VanBuren]

This was an honest-to-god Tearjerker of a chapter, but the moment I read the line "You filled me up with love before you put the nine-tails in me!" I both d'aaawed, and then started making innuendos. "And Shikamaru filled Temari up with love after he put his one-tail in her, if you know what I mean."

Minato: "Hey Kushina, I heard that you need to be filled with love before they can seal away the Fox. Just letting you know that I'm up to the task. Call me whenever you're ready for my Tailed Beast."

[Kato]

Oh my, this 'filling up with love' line is really a bad choice from the Translators, hu...?


Anyway, you guys really got choked up with it? Sorry, but it totally did not work for me. Not only because of naruto's blatant lie at the end. was just so ridiculously fed up with Minato's logic. 'I need to kill me and my wife (okay, she wouldn't make it anyway) and posibly ruin my son's life instead of just getting off my ass and show that fox what the Yellow Thunder can do.' he the freaking most powerful ninja of the village, so it is more important to keep the oversized pet than him? Yeah, lots of good this will do for the village, Minato. Oh, and yes, Naruto was the only one around, but really? You can like, teleport. Wasn#t there anyone else more reasonable to seal the Kyubi in? Is your trust in your son, who is three hours old, that big? And this melodramatic 'we protect our son be getting stabbed'? Oh please, I've seen it 10.000 times or so, that's not doing anything for me. Yeah, it is just Naruto, but couldn't he have done anything properly.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bit mean here, but I was really hoping for more :smallannoyed: Maybe when we are done with the 'Taming the Kyubi' stuff we will get some action again...

[VanBuren]

Oh my, this 'filling up with love' line is really a bad choice from the Translators, hu...?


Anyway, you guys really got choked up with it? Sorry, but it totally did not work for me. Not only because of naruto's blatant lie at the end. was just so ridiculously fed up with Minato's logic. 'I need to kill me and my wife (okay, she wouldn't make it anyway) and posibly ruin my son's life instead of just getting off my ass and show that fox what the Yellow Thunder can do.' he the freaking most powerful ninja of the village, so it is more important to keep the oversized pet than him? Yeah, lots of good this will do for the village, Minato. Oh, and yes, Naruto was the only one around, but really? You can like, teleport. Wasn#t there anyone else more reasonable to seal the Kyubi in? Is your trust in your son, who is three hours old, that big? And this melodramatic 'we protect our son be getting stabbed'? Oh please, I've seen it 10.000 times or so, that's not doing anything for me. Yeah, it is just Naruto, but couldn't he have done anything properly.
I'm sorry if I'm being a bit mean here, but I was really hoping for more :smallannoyed: Maybe when we are done with the 'Taming the Kyubi' stuff we will get some action again...

Whose to say Minato would have been able to defeat the Fox? The fact that he could only seal half of it suggests that the Fox was far more powerful than him.

[Revanmal]

The Kyuubi could shatter mountains and cause tidal waves with a swing of one tail. Minato didn't seal the fox in its entirety into the Shinigami because the Fox would overwhelm it.

The Nine-Tails can destroy a Death God.

Not even the Yellow Flash could beat that.

As for Naruto being the only one, well, they thought he'd inherit Kushina's special chakra, and apparently the host needs to be young when the beast in implanted, otherwise the chakra of the Beast overwhelms the host's own chakra coils and they do not develop properly. Infants can adapt to the Beast chakra, however, and use it.

Just how many babies are in the village and how many are suitable to hold the Fox, and how could Minato ever ask someone to do something he could not himself do? Namely, put an unimaginable burden on an innocent child. And Minato has, what, a few minutes at most to do all this. This probably wasn't the best solution overall, but it's hardly a stupid action on Minato's part.

[Kato]

Hm, I'd massively argue on the part of Minato being unable to defat the Ninetails... Yes, there is no proof, I know, but still. One day he must have been defated, Oroshimaru stood up to Naruto when he was using quite a lot of power, Kushina bound him and he was pretty much paralyzed. Not degrading Kushina here, but obviously there are means to fighting the Kyubi and if not Minato then who? I'm sorry, I still think it was a mistake.

Okay, I won't ask where you got the 'host needs to be young', 'kyubi would kill the host' things, I guess I just missed it in the walls of text there. Though, Kushina was older when she got implanted and putting some value in her and therefore Naruto's chakra is fine, but I'm still not ready to accept it so easily. Sorry, just the critic in me. A parentless infant can't be the best possible choice, just because Kishi couldn't come up with something else...

All that aside, I still have an issue with being utterly untouched by the chapter since it was just all so... clichee'd... Meh, I don't want to spoil anyone's fun, sorry. It's just... It didnÄt work for me. maybe I'm just heartless.

[VanBuren]

Hm, I'd massively argue on the part of Minato being unable to defat the Ninetails... Yes, there is no proof, I know, but still.

If there is no proof, you got nothing.


One day he must have been defated, Oroshimaru stood up to Naruto when he was using quite a lot of power, Kushina bound him and he was pretty much paralyzed. Not degrading Kushina here, but obviously there are means to fighting the Kyubi and if not Minato then who? I'm sorry, I still think it was a mistake.

Orochimaru was getting curbstomped by Naruto's 4-tailed state. Which incidentally, is only formed from half of the Fox's chakra.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Orochimaru was getting curbstomped by Naruto's 4-tailed state. Which incidentally, is only formed from half of the Fox's chakra.

I feel the need to point this out, but Orochimaru wasn't getting curb-stomped. Both 4-tailed Naruto and Orochimaru were stuck with the problem of figuring out a way to harm their opponent and make it stick. It was a deadlock. I'm not saying Orochimaru was winning, but it's hardly a curbstomp when you can just regenerate your body.

And to point out again it was half of half the Fox's chakra.

[Prime32]

Hm, I'd massively argue on the part of Minato being unable to defat the Ninetails... Yes, there is no proof, I know, but still.Minato didn't seem that powerful really. His main advantage was the insane maneuverability his Flying Thunder God technique gave him, which makes him practically impossible to hit and let him inflict massive casualties in war by teleporting behind enemy lines.

Minato can't do anything like this (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Sage_Art:_Super_Great_Ball_Spiralling_Large_Group_ Spheres), I mean.

[VanBuren]

I feel the need to point this out, but Orochimaru wasn't getting curb-stomped. Both 4-tailed Naruto and Orochimaru were stuck with the problem of figuring out a way to harm their opponent and make it stick. It was a deadlock. I'm not saying Orochimaru was winning, but it's hardly a curbstomp when you can just regenerate your body.

Naruto was having trouble making it stick, but his attack still did plow through the Summoning: Triple Rashōmon and into Orochimaru. Unless I'm forgetting something, Orochimaru couldn't ever land a scratch. Even the Sword of Kusanagi couldn't pierce him.


And to point out again it was half of half the Fox's chakra.

Right, I suppose I should have been clearer.

[KnightDisciple]

First, ow. Try typing a little slower, bud, I'm having trouble understanding you.

A.)Kushina had a bloodline ability that allowed her to temporarily restrain the fox. After it had gotten ripped out of her.
B.)Orochimaru stood up to Naruto....who was channeling a fraction of the full might of the Kyuubi's power. Naruto has only half the chakra of the thing, and at that point, he pulled out a whopping 4 tails; less than half power. And Orochimaru still almost died, only blocking that blast with a triple Rashamon. So Orochimaru can block a blast from a notably weaker Kyuubi-ish creature...barely.
This doesn't even touch the fact that Orochimaru is several times the age of Naruto, and a self-professed justsu lover. He's part of the same team that produced Jiraiya, the guy who taught the 4th Hokage. Point is, he's no small fry.
C.)I will point out that the Kyuubi shrank by at least half before it stabbed Minato and Kushina through with a single claw that looked to be a foot or more across. They were still tiny compared to that thing, and it was at half power.

As far as the requirements on age...If nothing else, all the containers we know of received their beast at a young age. Well, all the ones that have more than a name, picture, and associated beast.

Anyways, quick research (http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Kushina) states that Kushina got the 9tails before going into the Academy. Which kids seem to enter somewhere in the 6-8 age range.

So, yeah, pretty darn young.

All this loops back to this simple fact: The 9-Tailed Fox is a being of horrendously large power, enough to reshape geography. That Minato Namikaze was able to do what he did, in the space of perhaps 30 minutes to an hour, is nothing short of a true miracle. So ease up on the guy.

[Callos_DeTerran]

Naruto was having trouble making it stick, but his attack still did plow through the Summoning: Triple Rashōmon and into Orochimaru. Unless I'm forgetting something, Orochimaru couldn't ever land a scratch. Even the Sword of Kusanagi couldn't pierce him.

Like I said..they were both having trouble making damage stick, which includes causing it in the first place. Orochimaru kept on regenerating any of the damage he took while Naruto just tanked through it all...Though I could have sworn that, after the battle, it was revealed Naruto had been hurt by Orochimaru's attacks (not much mind you, but still hurt) and they simply couldn't be seen through the bijuu-cloak. I may misremember that part, because I remember Sakura csaying she couldn't heal the wounds caused by the transformation but still remember her healing other wounds he only could have gotten from Orochimaru.

[VanBuren]

Like I said..they were both having trouble making damage stick, which includes causing it in the first place. Orochimaru kept on regenerating any of the damage he took while Naruto just tanked through it all...Though I could have sworn that, after the battle, it was revealed Naruto had been hurt by Orochimaru's attacks (not much mind you, but still hurt) and they simply couldn't be seen through the bijuu-cloak. I may misremember that part, because I remember Sakura csaying she couldn't heal the wounds caused by the transformation but still remember her healing other wounds he only could have gotten from Orochimaru.

Either way, the point here is that if Orochimaru couldn't best the 4-tailed Half-Fox, then he probably couldn't stand against it at full power.

[devinkowalczyk]

If the kyubi was freed from Kushina, then minato sealed half of it away, would that mean Kushina had the full beast inside her?

[Lord Vukodlak]

I loved Kushina words to her son. Especially telling him, "Try to find someone like your mother" Guess that explains the long term crush on Sakura.


I'm guessing the host has to be young simply because changing hosts is such an ordeal if you do it to an eight year old instead of a 20 year old. The child can learn to harness the power at the academy.

My impression is the tailed beasts are immortal, they can't be killed only imprisoned or temporally brought down. [such as if the host dies]. The most efficient long term measure is to seal them away.

[devinkowalczyk]

Getting off the sad sally stuff and the dirty jokes (hur hur hur)


Is it possible that the statue used to hold the tailed beasts chakras has some really super direct connection to the 10 tailed?


And I feel dumb, I totally missed the whole nuclear weapon analogy. Wow.

[VanBuren]

Getting off the sad sally stuff and the dirty jokes (hur hur hur)


Is it possible that the statue used to hold the tailed beasts chakras has some really super direct connection to the 10 tailed?


And I feel dumb, I totally missed the whole nuclear weapon analogy. Wow.

It's possible that it's connected to the Ten-tailed Beast, but it's definitely the spitting image of the thing that Pain summoned against Hanzō.

[Mr. Mud]

It's still unclear whether the statue would combine all the beasts chakra to form the Jubi (or something to that effect), or if it would channel each beasts charka separately... Right?

Regardless, I don't think the statue will be very important down the road, as Akatsuki is mostly dead. Even with all nine, it took three days to seal one beast.

[Callos_DeTerran]

It's still unclear whether the statue would combine all the beasts chakra to form the Jubi (or something to that effect), or if it would channel each beasts charka separately... Right?

Regardless, I don't think the statue will be very important down the road, as Akatsuki is mostly dead. Even with all nine, it took three days to seal one beast.

You may be wrong there. Tobi/Madara mentioned that he was going to use Sasuke to power that very same soul-sucking statue since Nagato bit the bullet.

[Maho-Tsukai]

Akatsuki is mostly dead? Zomtiachi, Zomddeiara, Zomsasori Zomkakuzu and Zomnagato all say hello. Kabuchimaru says hello. Heck, Sasuke could be technically counted as at the least an ally to Akatsuki, even though he thinks himself otherwise. As for the statue thing, Madara never specifically said he would use Sasuke to sync with it, though that's a very likely posibility. The only things he said is that he needs somebody to sync with the statue and that he needs Sasuke. He never said he needs Sasuke for the statue. It is simply assumed that Sasuke will in fact be used for the statue because that's the only plan that makes any kind of sense with the info we have as of now. However, Kishi is known to throw curve-balls, so nothing is ever 100% proven until it happens in this manga. Heck, Madara may not even be Madara, especially with what happened between him and Kabuchimaru regarding the coffin.

[Mr. Mud]

You may be wrong there. Tobi/Madara mentioned that he was going to use Sasuke to power that very same soul-sucking statue since Nagato bit the bullet.

Ah, I remember now.
But with four people, even if Sasuke and Madara have excessive amounts of chakra, it may still take a long time to extract the eight and nine tailed beasts. And what with the entire ninja world looking for them, I doubt they could stay in a cave for such a long period of time.

[Innis Cabal]

Akatsuki is mostly dead? Zomtiachi, Zomddeiara, Zomsasori Zomkakuzu and Zomnagato all say hello. Kabuchimaru says hello. Heck, Sasuke could be technically counted as at the least an ally to Akatsuki, even though he thinks himself otherwise. As for the statue thing, Madara never specifically said he would use Sasuke to sync with it, though that's a very likely posibility. The only things he said is that he needs somebody to sync with the statue and that he needs Sasuke. He never said he needs Sasuke for the statue. It is simply assumed that Sasuke will in fact be used for the statue because that's the only plan that makes any kind of sense with the info we have as of now. However, Kishi is known to throw curve-balls, so nothing is ever 100% proven until it happens in this manga. Heck, Madara may not even be Madara, especially with what happened between him and Kabuchimaru regarding the coffin.

Actually, he does say he'll be using him to synch with the statue. Chapter 453 Page 18. He says it to Zetsu. He just says he won't be doing it for a while.

[tehjohnli]

I mean, with only four akatsuki members left (Tobi, Sasuke, Zetsu and Kisame) left, it would take quite a lot of time to seal the eight and nine tails.

Also, it seems that Kisame's going to be dying soon with the Chapter 505 spoilers.

[devinkowalczyk]

Maybe some more pawns will come out of the woodwork to take up the mantles? Tobi was once one of Sasori's spies/minions. We haven't really heard about any of the other ones.

[Little Bo Peep]

Huzzah! More Naruto. Chapter 505 is out! (http://mangastream.com/read/naruto/42232524/2)

I won't go into too much of what I think yet just in case people haven't read it.

But I think there were some tender moments at the start.

And Naruto using Kyuubi's chakra looks odd...I can't decide if I find it awesome or just weird.

But overall a good chapter I reckon, it was all very youthful!

[Prime32]

The ending was hilarious.

[tehjohnli]

Gai's obsession with "youth" and him freaking out was absolutely hilarious.

Naruto with the Kyuubi's chakra looks really cool. Anyone know exactly how he managed to do the teleport jutsu?

[KnightDisciple]

Gai's obsession with "youth" and him freaking out was absolutely hilarious.

Naruto with the Kyuubi's chakra looks really cool. Anyone know exactly how he managed to do the teleport jutsu?I think he actually just moved freaking fast. His foot being embedded in the wall supports this.

Alternatively, he somehow picked it up from his dad. But is so awesome he doesn't even need the kunai.

[devinkowalczyk]

Anyone else notice that the new Chakra infused Naruto has some interesting similarities with the few details we have about the Great Sage.
Namely I am looking at that necklace of tomoes.
Similar to the great sage and the sharingan.

And I know they are popular in japan, but the only 2 places I remember ever seeing them are sage, now, and the sharingan.



I think this kind of control will end up hurting him. Part of the reason naruto survived at all when sasuke developed the third tomoe is the way the kyubis chakra moves independently. If it is under his control it will act as he does.

However, the sheer speed and power he is moving with now, combined with sage mode should be enough for him to take on something like the nation of fire itself.
Clearly he has become a true S class

[VanBuren]

The Sharingan apparently can't control a Tailed Beast that's sealed in a host. At best, they can seemingly subdue it's chakra.

[AgentofOdd]

I'm also gonna say how awesome the part with Guy was. But who was that prick who kept egging him on? Though to be fair, it'll be hard to not act a bit like a jerk around the mighty Guy I think.

Speculation:

1. Access to the fox's chakra now means Naruto is now able to utilize all six forms of elemental energies.

2. The empathy thing Naruto has will only be used for comedic purposes and as yet another bit (along with the swallowed crow) that'll be able to save Sasuke. Lets just hope he'll be more useful than counselor Troi.

[devinkowalczyk]

The Sharingan apparently can't control a Tailed Beast that's sealed in a host. At best, they can seemingly subdue it's chakra.

I assume, specifically, you are talking about when sasuke popped the bubbles of chakra the fox was making.

I wonder now that is is part of naruto if it will make a difference. A stream of power is going to be harder to disrupt then bubbles.
weeee evil bubbles!

[VanBuren]

I'm also gonna say how awesome the part with Guy was. But who was that prick who kept egging him on? Though to be fair, it'll be hard to not act a bit like a jerk around the mighty Guy I think.

Speculation:

1. Access to the fox's chakra now means Naruto is now able to utilize all six forms of elemental energies.

2. The empathy thing Naruto has will only be used for comedic purposes and as yet another bit (along with the swallowed crow) that'll be able to save Sasuke. Lets just hope he'll be more useful than counselor Troi.

Sasuke: I'm going to destroy Konoha!

Naruto: I can feel your heart, Sasuke. You're angry, aren't you?

Sasuke: ...

Sasuke: Yes, Naruto. I'm angry.

[devinkowalczyk]

Int seemed like a good dump stat at the time!

[Kato]

So... at first I was kind of pissed with new superpowerful and special Naruto who is ON FIRE (I know he's not but it's the best i can come up with to describe this)
Heck, he even learned Detect Evil now (maybe now he will figure Sasuke has become truly evil? (Nah, just kidding. Please, no war over how evil Sasuke is)

Anyway, the end was so hilarious I still love the chap. Though, poor Kisame got (and probably will get) a hell of a beating next time. (I'm not really looking forward to it, cause I kind of like him, but anyway)

[Trixie]

However, the sheer speed and power he is moving with now, combined with sage mode should be enough for him to take on something like the nation of fire itself.
Clearly he has become a true S class

Unless he gained Colossus-style adamantine skin as well, he is going to be splattered by anyone tough enough to take one hit (like Raikage or Gai) and to hit back. He is still kid, his strength and durability will be much worse than that of adult.

Really, all his bonuses would work far better if he was mid-to-long range fighter instead of kamikaze rushing in close to every fight. He negates almost all advantages by doing that.


Int seemed like a good dump stat at the time!

Int? Don't make me laugh! :smallamused:

Int, Wis, and Cha if anything! :smalltongue:

And then he took haxxed feat keying his chakra reserves and DCs to Str.

Really, I despise both Naruto and Bee (as characters) right now, I hate superpowered morons :smallannoyed:

Speaking about Kisame - why the hell he waited for so long to strike? If he simply attacked when Bee and Naruto were trancing, he wouldn't be in all this **** right now. And, he would spare us all these Narmy scenes. But no, he had to patiently wait for his enemies to end the ritual that would make them too powerful to fight.

Also, Naruto might have detect evil now, but how they would be able to determine someone is hidden in the sword? Angry thoughts in intelligent sword? Who would have though? Geee, you really blew this one, Sharky.

[Prime32]

Speaking about Kisame - why the hell he waited for so long to strike? If he simply attacked when Bee and Naruto were trancing, he wouldn't be in all this **** right now. And, he would spare us all these Narmy scenes. But no, he had to patiently wait for his enemies to end the ritual that would make them too powerful to fight.
He was there to gather intelligence, not kill them.

Also, Naruto might have detect evil now, but how they would be able to determine someone is hidden in the sword? Angry thoughts in intelligent sword? Who would have though? Geee, you really blew this one, Sharky.Yeah, Kisame was just freaked out and didn't think things through. :smalltongue:

[Revlid]

Unless he gained Colossus-style adamantine skin as well, he is going to be splattered by anyone tough enough to take one hit (like Raikage or Gai) and to hit back. He is still kid, his strength and durability will be much worse than that of adult.
Except for the part where Sage Mode explicitly gives him superhuman strength and durability. See: tossing around giant summons like bowling pins when fighting Pain.


Really, all his bonuses would work far better if he was mid-to-long range fighter instead of kamikaze rushing in close to every fight. He negates almost all advantages by doing that.
He has one mid-to-long range attack, which largely requires the element of surprise. His advantages are massive toughness, stamina, strength and speed, as well as the ability to sense aggression or hate within a certain distance. He can also heal more quickly than normal, and create mobile distractions/ablative shields at will. To me, this speaks of a great close-combat fighter with elements of mid-range, not a mid-to-long range fighter.


Int? Don't make me laugh! :smallamused:

Int, Wis, and Cha if anything! :smalltongue:

And then he took haxxed feat keying his chakra reserves and DCs to Str.
Well, not really. I mean, Int I'll give you, and certainly Wis at the start.
But he's clearly been putting points into Wis recently, even with an epic fumble when dealing with Bee.
And his Cha is through the roof. The reason he did so badly with it at the start was the aforementioned low Wis - call it circumstance penalties. Once he starts dealing with people one-on-one, he wins over a hardened assassin, a complete psychopath, an aloof fatalist, a cynical alcoholic, a god-complex citykiller and his girlfriend, the entirety of Konoha, and from the looks of things he's going to try for the Fox next.

And he's never had particularly high Str. Sage Mode has boosted it, but he's always had great Sta.


Really, I despise both Naruto and Bee (as characters) right now, I hate superpowered morons :smallannoyed:
Bee's not a moron. Dude's smart enough to make up rhymes on the spot, in battle. He's won over his demon, he's clearly not a fool. The reason he left was because his job, day-in day-out, was to sit in that hut-shrine-place we first saw him in and wait for the Raikage to send him a message saying that Cloud was under attack. That was his life - he was a defense mechanism that wasn't in any danger of being used, and not much else. He was attacked by three total punks who he basically curbstomped, and then decided to temporarily fake his death to get some free time.
And I wouldn't call Naruto a moron, either. Sure, he's not Shikamaru, but he's clearly a genius in some respects, and possesses some truly admirable qualities.


Speaking about Kisame - why the hell he waited for so long to strike? If he simply attacked when Bee and Naruto were trancing, he wouldn't be in all this **** right now. And, he would spare us all these Narmy scenes. But no, he had to patiently wait for his enemies to end the ritual that would make them too powerful to fight.
Which Narmy scenes? The whole "Naruto talks to his parents" thing? Because I think you're in the minority there.
If you're referring to the Guy thing, again, minority. I thought it was a CMoF.

[Trixie]

He was there to gather intelligence, not kill them.

He didn't saw that in 10 minutes all their efforts to capture them might become entirely pointless? :smallconfused:

All he had to do was to fatally wound them so that the beasts escaped, which would make Madara's plans infinitely easier :smallsigh:

[VanBuren]

He didn't saw that in 10 minutes all their efforts to capture them might become entirely pointless? :smallconfused:

All he had to do was to fatally wound them so that the beasts escaped, which would make Madara's plans infinitely easier :smallsigh:

It's implied that if a host is killed, then it takes a while for the Tailed Beast to rematerialize. Kushina thought so, anyway.

[Trixie]

It's implied that if a host is killed, then it takes a while for the Tailed Beast to rematerialize. Kushina thought so, anyway.

Sure. So what? You just got rid of two haxxed ninjas, enormously weakening your enemies. Madara then would have 7 tailed beasts to 0 of the coalition. Pretty much game over.

All Kisame had to do was to extend these spikes first through Bee, then Naruto, then kick Yamato's behind and kill any of the hosts if they were still alive.

Plus, the beast would only disappear if the seal held. If Kisame could weaken it somehow, the beast would instead be free, far easier to capture.

My other points about Naruto/Bee, sp'd for length:


Except for the part where Sage Mode explicitly gives him superhuman strength and durability. See: tossing around giant summons like bowling pins when fighting Pain.

Except it suggest nothing of the sort. That might have been some sort of chakra-telekinesis.

A crane can lift a tank. Does it mean it will withstand a tank ramming it or shooting it? Of course not.


He has one mid-to-long range attack, which largely requires the element of surprise.

Which is why he should learn more of them, instead of behaving like a wizard putting his 4th level ability point into Str.


His advantages are massive toughness, stamina, strength and speed, as well as the ability to sense aggression or hate within a certain distance.

Which is perfect for ranged fighter evading counterattacks.


He can also heal more quickly than normal, and create mobile distractions/ablative shields at will. To me, this speaks of a great close-combat fighter with elements of mid-range, not a mid-to-long range fighter.

No. Look at all dangerous close combat fighters - like Immortal duo. One had heart-ripping attack, the other kills you if you bleed. Kakashi has Chidori, stunning/blowing you up with each hit. Kisame absorbs all chakra used against him.

Ergo - any enemy worth his salt will have some sort of haxxed attack that will laugh at your durability and stamina, as they are all battle-enders. Kid rushing into combat with people with decades of experience more with one attack worth anything is begging for burial.

By the way, remember who owned Gaara and gave Kakashi the most trouble out of all his enemies? That's right, the guy with long ranged attacks. Against two close combat ninja who were more dangerous than Naruto then.


Well, not really. I mean, Int I'll give you, and certainly Wis at the start.
But he's clearly been putting points into Wis recently, even with an epic fumble when dealing with Bee.

Also - fumble with sakura. With Kakashi. With Raikage. With Sai. With Sasuke. With... get the picture? :smallamused:

He makes fumbles all the time. Remember the utter fail that was his greeting of a random octopus monster?


And his Cha is through the roof.

What. Everyone despised him. Even people who didn't knew about fox though he was lazy, noisy, stupid brat. Sue, he gained a bit of publicity, but only because most people (haters) fear him now, or (his school) are impressed by him. There is nothing of his charisma in all of this. One mistake, and they'll be back to hate.


Once he starts dealing with people one-on-one, he wins over a hardened assassin, a complete psychopath, an aloof fatalist, a cynical alcoholic, a god-complex citykiller and his girlfriend, the entirety of Konoha, and from the looks of things he's going to try for the Fox next.

Who? I remember none of these people, at least not in the way described. Names, please.

Encounter with Nagato was full of plot ex machina, and Konan still remained unconvinced.


Bee's not a moron. Dude's smart enough to make up rhymes on the spot, in battle.

All this means he has a lot of practice, or talent for it, not intelligence.

Besides, his "rhymes" suck. Badly.


He's won over his demon, he's clearly not a fool.

Again, this shows stubbornness, strength, maybe, not intellect.


The reason he left was because his job, day-in day-out, was to sit in that hut-shrine-place we first saw him in and wait for the Raikage to send him a message saying that Cloud was under attack. That was his life - he was a defense mechanism that wasn't in any danger of being used, and not much else.

Gee, if he only thought about talking to his brother about this... Or invented a few convincing arguments...

Titan of intellect, indeed.


He was attacked by three total punks who he basically curbstomped, and then decided to temporarily fake his death to get some free time.

He won only because he decided to throw the battle. Had he fought for real, sure, Team Taka would be (mostly) dead, but so would be Bee, burned by black flames.

Plus, all his beast does is saving his butt from trouble or telling him why his behavior is stupid (as in, losing-battle-stupid). I wonder, why it has to?


And I wouldn't call Naruto a moron, either. Sure, he's not Shikamaru, but he's clearly a genius in some respects, and possesses some truly admirable qualities.

Like what? Being ordered by everyone, including the lowliest frogs? Being the target of the series all cruel attempts at humor?


Which Narmy scenes? The whole "Naruto talks to his parents" thing? Because I think you're in the minority there.

Gee, let's see:

Fox: Gar! Me eat you, tiny boy! You lost, like you should!

Kushina: Hell, no! Chains!

Fox: Wut? When you were alive, with full chakra reserves, you could have bound me for less than a minute, now, you're a tiny sliver of your former self, and yet, you expect it to work for more than a nanosecond?

Kushina: Sure! it will work an hour we want to spend talking about completely pointless stuff and wasting my time I could have spend talking about something useful!

[cue a picture of fox looking utterly retarded, instead of Monster he is]

Kushina: So, Naruto, let's talk about stuff. I have no idea why 3rd haven't told you all this despite witnessing it, he probably wanted us to lose precious time we could've spent better.

Naruto: Yay!

Kushina: First, let me congratulate your father for inventing cheat codes to your Fox-mastering-ritual, despite the claims of Bee that he invented it years later. Look at how smart we are, giving you keys to something invented in another village a decade later! Har har! IDDQD!

Naruto: Yay!

Kushina: Second, let let me congratulate your father for being utter moron who chose to die, instead of raising you, making you almost-Gaara, universally despised for decade, who, by the way, deprived Konoha of not one but two greatest assets it had, all of it because he wanted to talk to you for a minute. Instead, you know, all your life. If only he had been around when Orochimaru killed Sarutobi...

Naruto: Yay...?

Kushina: Third, that village destruction for which you vere despised? That totally didn't happen. Your father singlehandedly limited damage to pretty much zero. Good thing he died, eh? Leaving his village wide open to Madara's attacks sure was great! Oh, he might've prevented the Pain from ever existing, too. But never mind that!

Naruto: ...

Kushina: Fourth, let me congratulate you for your interest in Sakura, despite her being utter moron like me. But hey! Your shallow love you had as first crush totally trumps that of a girl that died for you. So, wait here while I take a colossal dump on Hinata's feelings, 'kay?

Naruto: ...That's it, I'm outta here :smallannoyed:

Fox: Are you people finished? All that plotkai on me is pretty heavy, you know.


If you're referring to the Guy thing, again, minority. I thought it was a CMoF.

Guy was passable compared to that.

And I wanted to see his inner self. Would have been much better than this gag instead.

[Prime32]

They can talk for as long as they want because time isn't really passing. They're inside Naruto's head.

[VanBuren]

Except it suggest nothing of the sort. That might have been some sort of chakra-telekinesis.

It does, actually. When Naruto first achieves it, a bird lands on him and sends him falling off his balance thing. Then he realizes that, thanks to Sage Mode, he isn't hurt.

Also, look up the meaning of plotkai, I'm not convinced you know what it means.

[Trixie]

They can talk for as long as they want because time isn't really passing. They're inside Naruto's head.

Them being in the Naruto's head would make sense if not for A) real time passing outside (see Yamato's comments) while Naruto battles Fox; B) Kushina openly stating she has a limit.

This isn't D&D, you know.

And I have new pet theory why Sarutobi said nothing: village was so pissed by the Fourth's decision to throw 60% of their combat strength into the dumpster that the Council decided to erase his name from the records (hence why Naruto is called Uzumaki, not Namikaze, as he should).

This explains the hatred, too - the cause isn't (nonexistent) destruction, but being the son of the most inept Hokage in history. Of course, they won't tell him that to not piss him off, but all that secrecy (which made no sense as described) was caused by shame. Few deaths cause by Fox only helped in this.

Think about it - why would a son of hero be despised? Why would no one, not even all these good guys we witness later tell him 'Huh, your dad was the best of us?' Namikaze was no hero in the memory (or laws, at least), he was remembered as an idiot who plunged Konoha into the depths of war against overwhelming forces (causing Konoha to adopt brute force instead of finesse that spawned Pain).

As for the head above the village, it probably wasn't removed to not cause questions, but the fact that 4th was the least often mentioned out of the 4 surely means something. Maybe if 3rd (who already has visage on the mountain, and probably objected to removal) wasn't elected, but someone else, the mountain would be altered that the 4th head was that other person? Now, under 5th Hokage, it is impossible, as the event is long in the past, and Naruto would have been hellishly pissed.


It does, actually. When Naruto first achieves it, a bird lands on him and sends him falling off his balance thing. Then he realizes that, thanks to Sage Mode, he isn't hurt.

Since when falling from a small height equals plunging headfirst into someone's attack with speed of a racing car? :smallsigh:


Also, look up the meaning of plotkai, I'm not convinced you know what it means.

Yeah, yeah, Kushina having perfect technique for dominatrix session against the Fox (despite the fact that it was invented in another village and no one in Konoha ever alluded to ways of control over the beast even being possible) is perfectly understandable and explainable.

As well as the fact it evidently doesn't require any chakra at all and works despite user with special blood being long dead. No problems here.

How about the fact that it is deus-ex-machina that was never alluded to in the past? No mention of techniques allowing people to stay alive/speak after death, Sarutobi dying the same way but not using it, nothing. As if Kushina somehow predicted existence of Bee and his little ritual, as her "gift" was useless, it haven't kicked in when Naruto went to 8th Tail Mode, that is, when he lost control.

Are you saying that natural losses of control that nearly let Fox free dozens of times didin't concerned her, but that ritual she never ever heard of did and she set her reveal counting on unlikely chance it happens? And you see no problems there? [facepalm]

The only greater plotkai possible now would be for Madara to draw Kyioka Sugetsu and to own everyone Aizen-style.

[devinkowalczyk]

That is a good point about the whole Activating During Ritual aspect. Something that it seems none of Konoha seemed to know about.

As for the fourth being the most despised. I don't know, your assesment seems to harsh. I doubt he is considered the greatest political hokage ever. He does seem to be well thought of for his techniques and his skill as a combatant (see the last world war ninja). But as a hokage he just didnt seem to do that great. They lost of the power of the nine tails for 16 years and got messed up with the invasion of the sand (who while being INFLUENCED by orochimaru, still attacked with their full ninja military and tailed beast).


As for the resistance and attack power.
He didnt have a scratch on him even though he fell onto solid rock. He was also able to take on 5 of the pains without the need for the fox's chakra. And konoha as a whole barely defeated i think 2?

he was also able to take on the fox inside him using the barrage of sage balls that would wipe out a very large area if they hit the ground. and now with the extra boost in chakra he can probably make a 10,000 ninja army.

[devinkowalczyk]

It's possible that it's connected to the Ten-tailed Beast, but it's definitely the spitting image of the thing that Pain summoned against Hanzō.

Sorry for double posting, but I just thought that maybe someone who had the rinnegan might have some deep connection to the 10 tailed beast ('s shell maybe? like snake skin?).
But that doesn't explain the things cast from it or the black crystals. That whole statue thing needs to be explored more.

[tordirycgoyust]

Now that Naruto is in complete control of the kyuubi, would it be safe to assume that maintaining the seal would take less chakra?
If this is the case then... ...I would like to cite a line from Kakashi in the chapter 320-that Naruto's chakra levels are about 4x Kakashi's own and that if he didn't have to supress the kyuubi it would be about 100x more. This would mean that with the chakra required to maintain the seal hypothectically reduced to zero Naruto's base(before senjutsu/kyuubi chakra is added) chakra would increase at least 25-fold.
Given Senjutsu chakra levels are proportional to the other chakras in the mix this could prove important.
Note that such a boost would likely not be anywhere near that big and that Naruto's ability to tap the kyuubi's chakra at will would mitigate much of the effect.

I would also like to see someone combine Tsunade's Yin seal, Senjutsu, and nature manipulation to store potentially infinite chakra (the nature manipulation being to avoid stone frog syndrome on release of the seal).

[Callos_DeTerran]

Are you saying that natural losses of control that nearly let Fox free dozens of times didin't concerned her, but that ritual she never ever heard of did and she set her reveal counting on unlikely chance it happens? And you see no problems there? [facepalm]

I'm ignoring the rest of this post because...well it's obvious that it's not worth arguing with you on it, you aren't going to change your mind. But this point...

You do realize that there was already a contingency in place to deal specifically with loses of control? There would have been no sense in adding in a second such contingency when they could put a much more worthwhile contingency into place. Did it occur to you that Kushina's visit was meant to trigger if Naruto ever tried to tame the fox, not when it was trying to control him? You know, a situation where Kushina's abilities would be much more useful?

Aside from that, there has been example of jutsu only triggering under certain circumstances, such as Kakashi's Evil Sealing jutsu or Danzo's Izanagi. Why's it such a stretch that a Hokage was able to 'build' two jutsu into a seal to help out his son in certain specific situations?

[AgentofOdd]

But the act of taming a tailed beast was an unprecedented ability developed by Killer Bee. There was no reason for Kushina or the Fourth to assume Naruto would be able to do such a thing.

I guess one theory is that the Fourth was supposed to come up when Naruto's seal was about to break (becoming physically dominated), and Kushina was to be triggered if Naruto started to become mentally dominated by the nine tails. To use motherly love to suppress the fox's hatred, or something.

[Prime32]

But the act of taming a tailed beast is an unprecedented ability developed by Killer Bee. There was no reason for Kushina or the Fourth to assume Naruto would be able to do such a thing.The Uchihas and that necklace were still around at the time, both of which can control the Kyuubi to some extent.

[Callos_DeTerran]

But the act of taming a tailed beast was an unprecedented ability developed by Killer Bee. There was no reason for Kushina or the Fourth to assume Naruto would be able to do such a thing.

I guess one theory is that the Fourth was supposed to come up when Naruto's seal was about to break (becoming physically dominated), and Kushina was to be triggered if Naruto started to become mentally dominated by the nine tails. To use motherly love to suppress the fox's hatred, or something.

There's your theory (which is good), but the act of taming a tailed beast is not unprecedented. It's what the Shodaime Hokage did. There was plenty of reason for the Fourth and Kushina to think it was possible, just maybe not with Naruto. But I can write that off as parents thinking the world of their kids.

[AgentofOdd]

According to chapter 498 you are correct. The ability for someone to simply will a beast into submission was still unknown, but I suppose the having mom temporarily seal the fox with those chains of hers was thought of as a useful reprieve, no matter what Naruto ended up trying.

[Closet_Skeleton]

(hence why Naruto is called Uzumaki, not Namikaze, as he should)..

There's no reason why Naruto shouldn't have his mother's last name. Giving your children their mother's last name is a tradition in Japan when the mother is the one of the last members of a house with more prestige than the father's.

[tehjohnli]

There's no reason why Naruto shouldn't have his mother's last name. Giving your children their mother's last name is a tradition in Japan when the mother is the one of the last members of a house with more prestige than the father's.

They did say that the third hokage chose Naruto's mothers name over his father's name because they didn't want people (and him) to know that his dad was the fourth hokage.

[devinkowalczyk]

So besides avoiding potential assassination attempts, what reason would they have to change his name?

[VanBuren]

So besides avoiding potential assassination attempts, what reason would they have to change his name?

That was sorta the main reason.

[Kato]

So besides avoiding potential assassination attempts, what reason would they have to change his name?

Oh, wait, so that was the reason he got treated like sh**? So noone would assassinate him? I mean, an orphan who just happens to be at the exact right age and look about exactly like his father surely isn't a dead giveaway who he might be. That totally explains why he he got treated like he he did! It all makes sense now!

(No, sorry, I don't want to start another argument. This stupid piece of personal history just keeps annoying me. Because he needed to be an outcast, hu? Concerning Trixie's theory... even though I think Minato made a mistake (yeah, we went over that. Can I keep my opionion please? Thanks) I don't think he was hated by the village. The sole mention he got the treatment he did (keeping his name unknown and hardlytalking about him) were to keep up the bi~ig secret about his son. Meh, to me it still seems like Kishi just isn't as good as explaining things as he should be with his convoluted plots.)

[VanBuren]

Oh, wait, so that was the reason he got treated like sh**? So noone would assassinate him? I mean, an orphan who just happens to be at the exact right age and look about exactly like his father surely isn't a dead giveaway who he might be. That totally explains why he he got treated like he he did! It all makes sense now!

(No, sorry, I don't want to start another argument. This stupid piece of personal history just keeps annoying me. Because he needed to be an outcast, hu? Concerning Trixie's theory... even though I think Minato made a mistake (yeah, we went over that. Can I keep my opionion please? Thanks) I don't think he was hated by the village. The sole mention he got the treatment he did (keeping his name unknown and hardlytalking about him) were to keep up the bi~ig secret about his son. Meh, to me it still seems like Kishi just isn't as good as explaining things as he should be with his convoluted plots.)

Don't be obtuse, that sort of protection wouldn't last and would be redundant anyway once people started to realize that he had the Fox. It was probably just meant to keep him safe until he became a ninja and could protect himself.

As it happens, it seemed to work out pretty well, considering nobody had any friggin' clue who he was before he started tearing **** up.

[devinkowalczyk]

Don't be obtuse, that sort of protection wouldn't last and would be redundant anyway once people started to realize that he had the Fox. It was probably just meant to keep him safe until he became a ninja and could protect himself.

As it happens, it seemed to work out pretty well, considering nobody had any friggin' clue who he was before he started tearing **** up.

I believe in the first few chapters they talk about how all of the adults knew he was the fox, but were forbidden from speaking about it. so the children learned to hate without knowing why.


Maybe no one still knows he is minatos kid. the birth was a big secret and since kushina and he died during hte fox attack maybe they figured he died too.

[AgentofOdd]

As it happens, it seemed to work out pretty well, considering nobody had any friggin' clue who he was before he started tearing **** up.I sure plenty of people outside of the village knew Naruto's status. Being the only child in the village who's blatantly ostracized by both children and adults for no discernible reason? Yep, we got ourselves a tailed beast host. I'd say providence was the only thing that kept Naruto from being captured/killed before the series started.

[VanBuren]

I sure plenty of people outside of the village knew Naruto's status. Being the only child in the village who's blatantly ostracized by both children and adults for no discernible reason? Yep, we got ourselves a tailed beast host. I'd say providence was the only thing that kept Naruto from being captured/killed before the series started.

Really? Apart from Madara and Akatsuki, name one. Hell, even Orochimaru didn't know right away.

[Callos_DeTerran]

I sure plenty of people outside of the village knew Naruto's status. Being the only child in the village who's blatantly ostracized by both children and adults for no discernible reason? Yep, we got ourselves a tailed beast host. I'd say providence was the only thing that kept Naruto from being captured/killed before the series started.

And being hated alone isn't the best sign that a kid is a tailed beast. After all, it's revealed that Kiba, Chouji, and Shikamaru at least tolerated him and with all the crap he was doing around the village...well...frankly...I'd have hated him too. XD He was a little brat back then.

[devinkowalczyk]

While I can only quote the anime for sure, Orochimaru did not know naruto was the tailed beast until the sealing jutsu appeared. that is when he appeared and tried to stop (by way of preventing a host from getting capture) by akatsuki.


Am I the only one dieing to know what part of Itachi's power was given to Naruto?
Maybe something to resist the eye technique?
I WANNA KNOW!

[Trixie]

Sooo... Turn out Naruto is nowhere near indestructible after all. Who could have guessed? :smalltongue:

Also: with what Kisame and Guy showed this week, I don't get why anyone would need Tailed Beasts at all. They both have more Chakra than weakest TBs, and are (potentially) far more destructive. Sure, TB host can be strong with much less training, but he is also a constant danger to your side, and besides, with treatment they get it's a wonder most of them haven't went AWOL. Hell, maybe these that Akatsuki capture were AWOL.

[Grumman]

Best. Wall spell. Ever. (http://manga.bleachexile.com/naruto-chapter-506-page-13.html)

Gai and Kisame don't disappoint. I don't have much interest in Naruto and Sasuke, but Gai is always awesome. Aoba was too.

[Trixie]

Wall of Sharks? :smallamused:

Someone totally needs to make it into a D&D spell.

The only way to make it cooler would be to use Tyrannosauruses instead :P

Cyborg Ninja Zombie Tyrannosauruses... on fire! :smallfurious:

[KnightDisciple]

Wall of Sharks? :smallamused:

Someone totally needs to make it into a D&D spell.

The only way to make it cooler would be to use Tyrannosauruses instead :P

Cyborg Ninja Zombie Tyrannosauruses... on fire! :smallfurious:

Gai took care of the fire.

[Thrawn183]

It's actually drawn as a wave rather than a wall. Still, pretty dang cool.

[VanBuren]

My prediction is that Gai is going to open the final gate here, and we're going to have one more join the ranks of Jiraiya and Asuma.

[tehjohnli]

My prediction is that Gai is going to open the final gate here, and we're going to have one more join the ranks of Jiraiya and Asuma.
That seems to be something that's going to happen. It seems to be a common trend.

[KnightDisciple]

Well, if Gai does die, we at least know one thing.

He will show Kisame the Burning Power of Youth!

[Kato]

Hm... I considered the possibility, but I on't think he really will. Gai might be a great character but killing him wouldn't have the impact killing Jiraya did (don't ask me about Asuma) It might happen, but I don't think it is too likely. It's just some Akatsuki after all.

Anyway, I loved the chapter. It had everything. Action, jutsus, rapping, man hugging swords (kinda), fire, sharks, sissy ninjas with sprained ankles, turtle(s), moar sharks.... hell yeah, gotta love it.

[AtlanteanTroll]

Well, Kisame had a good run. Between Naruto, Bee, and Guy, he's royally screwed.

[AgentofOdd]

I do hope Guy doesn't die. It would be rather sucky way to go just when he faced his inner sense of mortality. Don't really care one way or the other for Kisame.

[devinkowalczyk]

Sooo... Turn out Naruto is nowhere near indestructible after all. Who could have guessed? :smalltongue:

Also: with what Kisame and Guy showed this week, I don't get why anyone would need Tailed Beasts at all. They both have more Chakra than weakest TBs, and are (potentially) far more destructive. Sure, TB host can be strong with much less training, but he is also a constant danger to your side, and besides, with treatment they get it's a wonder most of them haven't went AWOL. Hell, maybe these that Akatsuki capture were AWOL.

I think that potential power bonus is enough to risk it. Sure some (Kakashi, Gai, Sanin) are stronger then them, but they do become very strong in their own right. Like when Gaara was able to stop the huge explosion over the city. I doubt he could do that now. Or how Bee was able to take on 4 S class ninja rogues.

[lord_khaine]

I really doubt Gai is in any danger of dying, he isnt central enough for it to have real impact on the story, and the author isnt killing people at random.

As for all the problems regarding the hosts, then to start with all we can say for certain is that people like Kakashi and Gai is in the same class as them, but those people are freaks of nature compared to normal ninja's, and not something you can count on to show up each generation.

With the tailed beasts on the other hand, as long as you find a decent host then you are sure to get 1 superninja, who is able to lay waste to a town on his own.

[Thrawn183]

I just want to see Rock Lee win a real fight.

[VanBuren]

I just want to see Rock Lee win a real fight.

That's about as likely as Chad having a fight where he doesn't get curbstomped.

[lord_khaine]

I just want to see Rock Lee win a real fight.

He did win his first one against Sasuke.

[devinkowalczyk]

That is true, he did kick the crap outta sasuke before the semifinals.
Of course, shortly after that Sasuke surpassed him by being able to mimic his reduced speed style attacks plus sharingan.


Wait...HE ISN'T EVEN IN THIS ARC!

[lord_khaine]

That is true, he did kick the crap outta sasuke before the semifinals.
Of course, shortly after that Sasuke surpassed him by being able to mimic his reduced speed style attacks plus sharingan.


We cant really be sure about this though, since Lee did have the option of opening his gates like Gai is doing now.

Still, at this point Sasuke are far above him, but that doesnt say much, since at this point Naruto could beat him in speed and power as well.

[Drolyt]

Go Gai! I really liked the latest chapter, we finally got to see Shark Man's motivation, which is cool.

[Irbis]

Sooo... Gai can defeat anyone with a single punch? :smallsigh:

Now that I think about it, why no one else opens any gates? Instant tailed beast, if you know how to do it. Is it really so hard to open 8th gate reliably (iirc, didn't the ninth gate give you the power greater than that of the Fox, then killed you when you closed it)?

Poor Kisame, I don't see how he'll walk out of this.

And isn't the riddle who Kisame saw as 4th Kage finally solved? But then, why was he so surprised Madara is in Akatsuki?

[lord_khaine]

Now that I think about it, why no one else opens any gates? Instant tailed beast, if you know how to do it. Is it really so hard to open 8th gate reliably (iirc, didn't the ninth gate give you the power greater than that of the Fox, then killed you when you closed it)?


opening even the first couple of gates are apperently a rare talent, and opening more gates is suposed to be very unhealthy (though not as unhealthy as getting stabbed by another ninja).

opening the last gate would give you power equal to that of a hokage, but kill you short after (that was how it was explained first time we heard of the gates).