Need help estimating a spell's level

[Desril]

I'm trying to make a fireball spell that doesn't have Fireball's 2 great weaknesses, Reflex: Half, and Spell Resistance: Yes, so the basic idea I had was just an enormous Orb of Fire. It's an AoE so it doesn't need the touch attack, and it's a Conjuration, bypassing SR and doesn't require a save for the same reason Orb doesn't.

So what SL would that be? I was thinking 6th, maybe 7th, assuming 15d6 max damage.


Off-topic question; Why are Conjurations like the Orbs able to bypass SR when Evocations that do the same thing can't?

[Critical]

How much AoE do you want?

Off-side question: conjurers conjure, they are, sort of, just summoning a ball of fire from somewhere, probably, from the plane of fire. Evokers, on the other create what they cast with their magic, rather than summoning it from somewhere.

[Siosilvar]

It's an AoE so it doesn't need the touch attack...doesn't require a save for the same reason Orb doesn't.

That doesn't work. The Orb of Fire doesn't allow a save because it's a ranged touch attack.

[Desril]

I'm thinking just slightly bigger than fireball, maybe 25ft radius.

And that's what I thought, but...still, it kind of makes Evocation pointless, doesn't it? Why create it yourself when that can be blocked, but if you summon the same thing from whatever plane it comes from it's unstoppable...


**Edit: I suppose that makes sense...still, any chance of a no save, no resist Fireball being balanced as a 6th or 7th level spell?

[Private-Prinny]

First off, if it's based off of Fireball, it should be Evocation. Second, I'd put it at 7th level, maybe as a replacement for Delayed Blast Fireball.

[Desril]

It's based on Orb of Fire, just trying to upgrade it to an AoE, like Fireball.

[Fendalus]

I'm trying to make a fireball spell that doesn't have Fireball's 2 great weaknesses, Reflex: Half, and Spell Resistance: Yes, so the basic idea I had was just an enormous Orb of Fire. It's an AoE so it doesn't need the touch attack, and it's a Conjuration, bypassing SR and doesn't require a save for the same reason Orb doesn't.

So what SL would that be? I was thinking 6th, maybe 7th, assuming 15d6 max damage.

Acid Storm, 6th level spell from the Spell Compendium, seems kind of like what you were looking for. It does D6 acid damage per level, to a maximum of 15, doesn't allow SR, and has a 20 radius. Medium range though, and Reflex half (Like all AoE blast spells I'm aware of).

Basing this Conjured Fireball off that, I'd go with this:

Conjured Fireball
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level: Sorcerer/wizard 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Area: 20-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: No

You summon a magically compressed
ball of fire near the target, which then
explodes, hitting everything nearby.
A Conjured Fireball deals 1d6 points of Fire
damage per caster level (maximum
15d6) to each creature in the area.
Material Component: A flask of Alchemist's Fire
(25 gp).

Might lower the spell level to 5th, as Acid Rain deals Acid damage in a Cylinder, which isn't near as easy to block and is a much less commonly resisted energy type.

*Edit: Yeah, removing the reflex save would probably bump it up a spell level to 7th (Or 6th, if you think that the reasoning given above is accurate. Although "Everyone in this area takes 15D6 fire damage, No save" might be a bit much for a 6th level spell. Might be a bit little for a 7th level spell though.)

[tyckspoon]

6th or 7th, depending on how highly your group values blasting spells. In an absolute sense, I'd say 6th with uncapped damage potential would be fair, but I'm sure there's many a DM who would balk at that.

[awa]

on one hand my gut sys no it's to powerful but my head says even with these modification direct damage has limited value

Acid fog does less damge but it's also a solid fog and I belive it grants neither a save or spell resistance.

Basicaly i guess in a optimised group where direct damage is mostly useless this fits in at about 6th level. In a lower optimization game where some one actualy consideres delayed fire blast a useful spell then 7th.

[nedz]

Your spell sounds a lot like Meteor Swarm.

4 missiles, each with a ranged touch attack for 2d6 bludgeoning plus 6d6 fire; each then does a 6d6 40' radius fireball with a Reflex save for half.

Meteor Swarm is a level 9 Evocation.

Ed: SR YES

[Smiling Knight]

I believe that Meteor Swarm is generally considered one of the worst possible things one can do with a ninth level spell slot, and therefore not a good baseline.

[aje8]

I believe that Meteor Swarm is generally considered one of the worst possible things one can do with a ninth level spell slot, and therefore not a good baseline.
Ok guys, here's a couple of options. Do you want to:
A. Bend the very fabric of space-time to your will as you tell the entire universe to stop?
B. Be able to change shape into anything gaining (essentially) it's full abilities in doing so 24/7 changing at will?
C. Create an area of pure destruction that will stun foes with its very awesomeness as it consumes them?
D. Burn people with fire? Oh and hit them with rocks. But to make this sound more attractive, we'll put Meteor in the name. As everyone knows, Meteors rule.

That's basically what Meteor Swarm is compared to other 9th level spells.

[ericgrau]

Eh all this bashing against direct damage is forgetting how powerful area damage can be. The total damage done is often enough to kill any single creature 2-3 times over. Something you always want to prepare at least 1 of if you can, unless your DM only likes sending individual big bads at you one after another. Single target direct damage I could maybe understand. Likewise the advantage of meteor swarm is not its fairly unimpressive damage compared to a metamagicked fireball, but it's ridiculous 40 foot radius per ball. Against a swarm of weenies like an army fight no other 9th level kill spell can compare. Again, something to at least put in your spell book for when the occasion arises. But not so much if your DM only likes BBEG fights.

As for the spell, reflex tends to be a monster's lowest save. They fail the save about 75% of the time. But any smart wizard will save this spell for high reflex save monsters, so in practice it may be more like 50% of the time. 50% or 100% damage => 75% of max damage on average. 33% more damage on average vs. the save:yes version, so about 1 or 2 spell levels higher. Also 1/4 of a widen spell feat, for .75 more levels. So maybe 2-3 levels higher for a 5th or 6th level spell. I'm leaning towards 6th. But that's assuming 10d6 max. The spell described above would be another 2 levels higher: 7th or 8th.

[awa]

It's not terrible against swarms of weak foes but i think you would be better off just summoning something with area of effect abbilities of it's own it seems like a waste of a 9th level slot to me

[ericgrau]

Summon monster IX gives a CR 11 creature to a level 17+ character. I couldn't find any with area damage. Also a rather slow and easily disrupt-able solution. Other solutions cost xp and/or are known cheese and might not fly with the DM.