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The Pressman
2010-07-09, 11:00 PM
What would be the closest class to a scientist? As in, good with research, making things, chemistry...basically a polymath/engineer/chemist. I've heard archivist, but I'd like to find a consensus. Consider RP in there as well.

Prodan
2010-07-09, 11:02 PM
Expert, probably.

Siosilvar
2010-07-09, 11:04 PM
Archivist, Artificer, Wizard, Psion, Warlock, Bard, Expert for NPCs...

EDIT: All of these classes have all Knowledge skills as class skills and/or a reason to want to build or research stuff (cue "FOR SCIENCE!").

The Pressman
2010-07-09, 11:04 PM
Where (what book) is that?
EDIT: ah, sorry, for asking, thought it was different one than the NPC class.

Math_Mage
2010-07-09, 11:05 PM
Are we talking Einstein? Or a fantasy scientist who punches people out with his beakers? Because if the former, you need a very low-level NPC character with lots of boosts to his Knowledge, Profession, and possibly Craft skills. If the latter, you could just play a Factotum or Archivist.

Siosilvar
2010-07-09, 11:06 PM
Where (what book) is that?

Expert is an NPC class from the DMG.

10 class skills which may be any skills, d8 hit die, no class features whatsoever... yeah.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-09, 11:10 PM
Artificer



Archivist is a sort of scientist that studies all divine magic. Wizards are in the same position studying arcane magic.

Artificers study the creation of magical items and magic in its raw form.

The Pressman
2010-07-09, 11:29 PM
I realize this may be best for another forum, but what about a homebrew mashup of the expert, but maybe with some minor magic? And possibly better save progressions.
How would/should I go about doing this in a way that would make it viable as a level 1 PC?

Serpentine
2010-07-09, 11:34 PM
Don't forget you can make up crafts and things. One of the characters in my game has Craft (gizmo).

Lev
2010-07-09, 11:39 PM
My favorite is a Druid that specializes in herb storage from Masters of the Wild, potion brewing and wields a gnome calculus (flings vials and potions).

Siosilvar
2010-07-09, 11:41 PM
I realize this may be best for another forum, but what about a homebrew mashup of the expert, but maybe with some minor magic? And possibly better save progressions.
How would/should I go about doing this in a way that would make it viable as a level 1 PC?

By playing a Bard or Warlock with fluff changes.

I could see a decent scientist/inventor Warlock... your Eldritch Blast, Invocations, and crafted items are all random trinkets you've made.

Which reminds me of the one idea I had, to play a wizard with all spells refluffed as various modern-day devices, like Magic Missile Machineguns...

taltamir
2010-07-09, 11:43 PM
What would be the closest class to a scientist? As in, good with research, making things, chemistry...basically a polymath/engineer/chemist. I've heard archivist, but I'd like to find a consensus. Consider RP in there as well.

While others have posted some good ideas for how to do it, and classes such as artificer which are close...

The very concept of science is completely incompatible with DnD.
DnD has a world where living beings run on "positive energy" instead of chemistry, where the world is medieval locked, where the gods are active changing the rules of reality on occasion...

The problem with a scientist type guy is that he would do science... and then he wants to build a factory to produce his magitech gun and tanks... You can do it, but it will be a very unusual game.

The Pressman
2010-07-09, 11:49 PM
While others have posted some good ideas for how to do it, and classes such as artificer which are close...

The very concept of science is completely incompatible with DnD.
DnD has a world where living beings run on "positive energy" instead of chemistry, where the world is medieval locked, where the gods are active changing the rules of reality on occasion...

The problem with a scientist type guy is that he would do science... and then he wants to build a factory to produce his magitech gun and tanks... You can do it, but it will be a very unusual game.

I wouldn't be going for that, more of just a renaissance man meets research chemist kind of person, someone who creates things without having to resort to magic, making small things that even Commoners can use. An adventurer rather than a manufacturer.

Morph Bark
2010-07-10, 04:37 AM
In case of a mad Frankensteinian scientist, Wizard with going into the Fleshwarper PrC.

Serpentine
2010-07-10, 04:41 AM
The very concept of science is completely incompatible with DnD.
DnD has a world where living beings run on "positive energy" instead of chemistry, where the world is medieval locked, where the gods are active changing the rules of reality on occasion...Not in my game. Here, evolution still works as normal, the laws of physics still apply, things are made up of elements, etc. There's just the added element factor known as "magic" that allows these natural laws and processes to be manipulated or put on hold for a while. But I guess I read a lot of Pratchett and don't have much trouble dealing with multiple layers of reality.

Radar
2010-07-10, 05:23 AM
"Any sufficiently analysed magic is indistinguishable from science!" (http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20081205)

Artificer is the fantasy engineer. Wizards and Archivists are the once most interested in theoretical study of magic. I'd figure, that if anyone would want to be scientist in a fantasy world, one would choose either of these (more probably wizard), since magic is a vital part of the reality and it helps in studying other parts (doing observations and experiments is way easier with all those spells - especially divinations).
Also: advanced spells can't be researched without extensive knowledge of inner workings of the universe.

edit: @taltamir
A different setting maybe, but quite interesting. Even a Tippyverse is fully playable.

Zeta Kai
2010-07-10, 06:15 AM
Expert is an NPC class from the DMG.

10 class skills which may be any skills, d8 hit die, no class features whatsoever... yeah.

It's d6 HD, actually. A good dip class, but only for a level or two, & only if your build needz moar skilz. In pretty much every conceivable way, the Factotum is vastly superior.

AslanCross
2010-07-10, 07:04 AM
Artificer (Eberron Campaign Setting) would be more of a magical engineer.
Wizard would be more of a quantum physicist, but of course can also craft things.
Archivist would be something like an anthropologist/archaeologist who studies religion as a specialty and who actually gets power from it.
Cloistered Cleric gets the Knowledge Domain for free. Depending on which god he worships, I'd say he'd be a combination theologian/researcher/scientist. The Along with the Wizard, Cloistered Cleric is the most likely to say "You know, I actually did a study on that some time in the past..."

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 08:22 AM
While others have posted some good ideas for how to do it, and classes such as artificer which are close...

The very concept of science is completely incompatible with DnD.
DnD has a world where living beings run on "positive energy" instead of chemistry, where the world is medieval locked, where the gods are active changing the rules of reality on occasion...

The problem with a scientist type guy is that he would do science... and then he wants to build a factory to produce his magitech gun and tanks... You can do it, but it will be a very unusual game.

"Science" is not a dogma. Science is research, explanation and application.

Look at Newton's study on gravity. He never answered why gravity works(Technically he answered "Because God willed so"). He just explained how it worked.

A scientist doesn't look at a zombie and say "This shouldn't work!". Instead he'll ask himself "how does he work?" and try to study and reproduce the effect, and find a practical application for it(for example, finding out how to tap the energy source the zombie taps, or putting the zombie on a treadmill to generate electricity).

Zeta Kai
2010-07-10, 08:32 AM
A scientist doesn't look at a zombie and say "This shouldn't work!". Instead he'll ask himself "how does he work?" and try to study and reproduce the effect, and find a practical application for it(for example, finding out how to tap the energy source the zombie taps, or putting the zombie on a treadmill to generate electricity).

A good explanation of theoretical science, & an awesome example of applied science.

thompur
2010-07-10, 11:04 AM
Don't forget Alchemy!
I have little talent for character class creation, but it seems an alchemist type class could create and use all the poisons, potions and items listed under the skill, then, as he goes up in level, maybe learns how to make potions that work like magic without the magical properties. Just a thought...
and probably not an original one...

Scorpina
2010-07-10, 01:00 PM
The problem with a scientist type guy is that he would do science... and then he wants to build a factory to produce his magitech gun and tanks... You can do it, but it will be a very unusual game.

That's a bit of a logical leap, isn't it? Just because he'd be experimenting and looking into how the world works doesn't necesarily mean he'll end up building guns and tanks.

Prime32
2010-07-10, 01:49 PM
If a scientist existed in a fantasy setting, he would find that even if he sought to create alchemical items, he would need to study the principles of magic.

Gathering Knowledge on all areas, he would analyse the reactions which take place when human sorcerers cast their spells. It would not be long before he learned to use his Intelligence to recreate through careful analysis what they do through Charisma and instinct. In some cases he could do it even better - since he understands the exact effects that altering an incantation has on a spell, he would not need to extend its casting time to modify it. His studies would allow him to perform feats with spells which most sorcerers could not. However, since he was not "gifted" with magic, he would not be able to cast as many spells per day without becoming exhausted.

Sound familiar?

Swok
2010-07-10, 01:53 PM
There's also the Pathfinder Alchemist, but that's mostly a strongly nerfed artificer.

Would probably work if you have a lower powered game.

arrowhen
2010-07-10, 02:16 PM
Ranger would make a good field biologist.

Prodan
2010-07-10, 02:50 PM
Ranger would make a good field biologist.

Jane Goodall was a renowned archer.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-10, 03:01 PM
I don't think a real scientist can be modeled as a D&D character very well, simply because the pacing is too far off. Here's what a real scientist does:

Spends 3 months filling out grant applications.
After getting funded, spends 6 months designing an experiment.
Conducts the experiment for 1½ months.
Spends 3 months analyzing the data.
Spends another 3 months writing up the findings and submitting papers to various journals.
This fits really well in the Ars Magica system, but not really in D&D.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 03:03 PM
On the contrary, it fits perfectly well. It just doesn't make for a good adventurer.

Scorpina
2010-07-10, 03:11 PM
Jane Goodall was a renowned archer.

No way man, she's TWF all the way!

Warpwolf16
2010-07-10, 03:18 PM
Pathfinder's Artificer calss, weird science anyone? with a splash of lightning gun's and force fields? I love it and currently running a Ratkin artificer temple in my campaign coming up.

Morph Bark
2010-07-10, 03:23 PM
Jane Goodall was a renowned archer.

So was this guy:
http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/4/0/2/9/15149204-15149219-large.jpg

Ravens_cry
2010-07-10, 03:25 PM
While others have posted some good ideas for how to do it, and classes such as artificer which are close...

The very concept of science is completely incompatible with DnD.
DnD has a world where living beings run on "positive energy" instead of chemistry, where the world is medieval locked, where the gods are active changing the rules of reality on occasion...

The problem with a scientist type guy is that he would do science... and then he wants to build a factory to produce his magitech gun and tanks... You can do it, but it will be a very unusual game.
That's not incompatible with science, that's just incompatible with what science has discovered about our world. Science is a process for discovering knowledge and ultimately, the nature of reality, whatever that nature is. If Gods can 'change the rules' then there may very well be a deeper, more hidden set of rules. You would need a very creative and scientifically inclined DM to pull this off, but it would be fun if you could.
Back on topic, the wizard is certainly the nerd of the Core arcane classes, having learned their magic through studious study and experimentation.

arrowhen
2010-07-10, 06:57 PM
I don't think a real scientist can be modeled as a D&D character very well, simply because the pacing is too far off. Here's what a real scientist does:

Spends 3 months filling out grant applications.
After getting funded, spends 6 months designing an experiment.
Conducts the experiment for 1½ months.
Spends 3 months analyzing the data.
Spends another 3 months writing up the findings and submitting papers to various journals.
This fits really well in the Ars Magica system, but not really in D&D.

Sure, a modern research scientist wouldn't fit that well, but something like an 18th century naturalist would. Exploring the unknown, discovering strange new creatures, killing them and taking their stuff defining their taxonomy? Doesn't seem like too far a stretch to me.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 07:04 PM
Sure, a modern research scientist wouldn't fit that well, but something like an 18th century naturalist would. Exploring the unknown, discovering strange new creatures, killing them and taking their stuff defining their taxonomy? Doesn't seem like too far a stretch to me.

Reminds me of an adventure where we had to go into nasty places with the minister of economy.
Or the Professor Pendrake from Iron Kingdoms !

The Pressman
2010-07-10, 09:12 PM
Not in my game. Here, evolution still works as normal, the laws of physics still apply, things are made up of elements, etc. There's just the added element factor known as "magic" that allows these natural laws and processes to be manipulated or put on hold for a while. But I guess I read a lot of Pratchett and don't have much trouble dealing with multiple layers of reality.

My feelings exactly. I just want someone who focuses more on the building and concocting of various items, researching their workings, maybe using magic to make it a bit easier (hold things in place, assemble machines, prepare compounds) and then record their findings for future use. Heck, he could even use magic like a sorcerer, except just have very simple spells. I realize that levitation is a short lasting spell, but if there's anything like Affix, and then he could use those two together in different ways. Is there any spell that allows you to simply move and manipulate things, like holding them without the actual corporeal hands? Low level, if possible.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 09:14 PM
Well, wizards are by definition academics.
If you only want low spells, maybe a magewrit?
Artificers are a good pick if you want a more "gadgety" feel.

The Pressman
2010-07-10, 09:31 PM
What is a magewrit? I was looking around and having trouble finding it.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 09:39 PM
It's an npc class from Eberron. They can cast a few arcane spells per day, culminating with level 5 spells at level 16.
They are about as common as, say, blacksmiths and court servants, being the backbone of the "magicalness" on civilized areas. Low spells are very common.

The Pressman
2010-07-10, 09:44 PM
I wanted more of just a few utility spells, like Light, maybe some sort of fire spell, levitation, some sort of manipulation spell, some small-scale healing, etc. More small scale stuff, like with limits that can at any time be restricted by the DM, no arguing, but with longer durations. Much longer.

Hague
2010-07-10, 09:57 PM
It's a magewright, much like a shipwright makes ships, a magewright makes everyday magic, binds elementals into objects, etc. It's an Eberron thing where pseudo-science powers magic. Elemental power acting as an energy source. For instance, you can get a ship in Eberron that's a huge spiked rock ball hollowed out in the middle, bound with an earth elemental so it can earth glide and an air elemental so you can breathe in it and so on.

If you're looking for that sort of thing, why not just go psychokineticist psion?

The Pressman
2010-07-10, 10:41 PM
Would that work?
EDIT: Where is that? Or is it a build?
EDIT²:Never mind, sorry. However, I would more like something that was able to just activate, and leave on, like just making a beaker stay in mid-air while you mixed things in it. I don't know if there's anything like this in D&D, but hey.

imperialspectre
2010-07-10, 11:43 PM
It's a wizard cantrip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/mageHand.htm).

The Pressman
2010-07-10, 11:55 PM
Is there any spell that adheres something to another thing? I mean, nothing unremovable, just strong enough to support several pounds.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 12:02 AM
Also a wizard's cantrip.

The Pressman
2010-07-11, 12:07 AM
Also a wizard's cantrip.

Which is....<gestures to continue>

Prodan
2010-07-11, 12:10 AM
Called "Stick".

hamishspence
2010-07-11, 11:01 AM
D20 Modern had the Field Scientist, and D20 Past had a Scientist advanced class that was a bit like Magic of Faerun's Gnome Artificer- a "mad scientist" type who specialized in weird gadgets that could do the job of magic.

"Go-go gadget Fireball!" :smallbiggrin:

woodenbandman
2010-07-11, 05:00 PM
I'd say archivist. You could also try that Int-Based bard variant.