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TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-10, 07:25 AM
Not actually quite sure what to call it yet :smallbiggrin:

Basically, I wanted to make a class that used the knowledge skills to do all sorts of stuff, spells being a big deal, but not the only trick in their bag. As a WIP name I'm using The Knowledgeable. Any better suggestions would be appreciated.

This class only works if you use the knowledge skill variant found here: http://www.giantitp.com/articles/paBcfg1YaEccDMQACfu.html, as Verbosity relies upon it.

I don't have a huge amount of experience homebrewing, and even less experience actually playing. Please, when you point out flaws (of which I'm sure there are many), suggest a way to fix them. At the moment I'm almost certain it's OP, and I think 19th level kind of sucks.

On a flavour level, the reason that I refer to Druid and Ranger spells as non-divine spells is because, in my Eberron campaign, divine casting is seen as more un-natural than arcane casting, because arcanists are just exploiting the stranger rules of reality, whereas divine casters are actually getting a powerful being to intervene and mess things around for them. Just group them with divine casters if you don't like this idea.

Adventures: Knowledgeables conduct their adventures in a similar way to Wizards, trying to find out as much as possible about their situation beforehand and using any preparation time to research valuable spells. Surprises make a Knowledgeable vulnerable, but only until he has a chance to use his knowledge and figure out what's going on. Acquiring new knowledge is a big deal for them, and is likely to motivate their adventures.

Characteristics: Knowledgeables have varied skills, with the common theme of knowledge. They can research any spell, giving them great versatility, but they lack the lasting power of sorcerers and even Wizards, having only a few spells per day. They have few other combat options, but the Communication ability gives them something to do when their spells run out.
With their lore ability and knowledge skills they are invaluable planners, and, given enough time to prepare, will almost certainly be able to figure out what's going on.

Alignment: Knowledgeables can be of any alignment, but they tend to swing towards law rather than chaos, because studying effectively often requires a rigorously organised mind.

Religion: Knowledgeables can revere any god, or none, but they generally tend towards those that grant the knowledge domain, for obvious reasons.

Races: Humans lust for knowledge in all it's forms, and are experts in science, meaning that the path of the Knowledgeable is very attractive to many of them. Gnomes also develop this path, for much the same reasons.

Other Classes: Many of the Knowledgeable's abilities rely on teamwork, either granting allies bonuses or getting a job halfway done. However, he often looks down on those that follow a less rigorous path than him. He gets along with Wizards and Archivists, as they follow a very similar path to him, but will often have clashes with less educated classes, such as the Barbarian. He can also get into trouble with divine casters, seeing as he practically steals their spells on a regular basis. Often people see his adaptation of divine magic as stealing from the gods, and this can lead him into a lot of trouble.

Role: The role of the Knowledgeable is to know what's going on, and use that knowledge to support the group. Whether he achieves this with his skills or Lore, his spells or abilities, is up to him.

HD: d4

Skills: Appraise (Int), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Forgery (Int), Knowledge [all] (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Search (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Truespeak (Int)
Skill points per level: 6 + Int modifier

Table 1:1, The Knowledgeable
{table=head]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special|0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4t h|5th|6th|7th

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Lore, Spellbook, Communicator|3|1

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Extraordinary Knowledge I|4|2

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Skill Focus (Knowledge)|4|3

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Supernatural Knowledge I|5|3

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4||5|4|2

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Extraordinary Knowledge II|5|5|3

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5||5|5|4|2

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Supernatural Knowledge II|5|5|5|3

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6||5|5|5|4|2

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Extraordinary Knowledge III|5|5|5|5|3

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7||5|5|5|5|4|2

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Supernatural Knowledge III|5|5|5|5|5|3

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||5|5|5|5|5|4|2

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9|Extraordinary Knowledge IV|5|5|5|5|5|5|3

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9||5|5|5|5|5|5|4|2

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Supernatural Knowledge IV|5|5|5|5|5|5|5|3

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||6|5|5|5|5|5|5|4

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11|Extraordinary Knowledge V|6|6|5|5|5|5|5|5

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|6|6|5|5|5|5|5

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Supernatural Knowledge V|6|6|6|6|5|5|5|5[/Table]

Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Knowledgeable is proficient with the club, dagger, quarterstaff, light crossbow and heavy crossbow. He is also proficient with light armour, but not shields.

Spellcasting: A Knowledgeable casts spells which are drawn from her spellbook (see below). They are arcane, divine or natural, depending on what she researched them as. A Knowledgeable must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time.
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the Knowledgeable must have an intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell level. The DC for a saving throw against a Knowledgeable's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's intelligence modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a Knowledgeable can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 1 : 1, the Knowledgeable. In addition, she gains bonus spells per day if she has a high intelligence score.
A Knowledgeable must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night's sleep and spending 1 hour studying her spellbook. While studying, the Knowledgeable chooses which spells to prepare.

Spellbook: A Knowledgeable can research spells and add them to her spellbook. She must first have access to a depository of information with information on that class of spell (arcane, divine, or natural). She must then spend a number of days researching equal to the level of the spell she wishes to learn (0 level spells take half a day), spending at least 8 hours in the aforementioned depository of information per day.
At the end of the study period, she makes a knowledge check, arcana for arcane spells, religion for divine spells, and nature for druid and ranger spells. If she succeeds she scribes the spell into her spellbook, using resources (but not time) as a Wizard would when copying a spell of that spell level.
This skill check can be retried if a different depository of knowledge is found, or if the the Knowledgeable purchases another rank in the relevant skill.
Arcane, divine and natural versions of the same spell are treated as different spells for the purpose of research and retries. A Knowledgeable spell is treated as a divine, arcane or natural spell according to what skill was used to research it, and this affects how it can cast and whether armour failure applies.
A Knowledgeable may attempt to scribe any spell available to a base class this way (but not domain or prestige class spells). If she meets the prerequisites for a prestige class, or if she is using books written by a member of that prestige class, she may research spells from that class. If she can cast a spell through a different class she can copy it down, even if it only exists as a domain spell, and gets a +10 competence bonus on the knowledge check. She may also copy from a spellbook or prayerbook (using the normal procedure for such copying, including the spellcraft check).
Using any of the spells Augury, Commune, Contact Other Plane, Divination, Legend Lore, Vision grants a circumstance bonus to the knowledge check equal to the spell level.
The DM can rule that certain spells cannot be researched in a normal library, and require access to a very specialised library, or even to a spellbook or scroll with that spell on it. This should be the exception, though, and should not just be used for spells that the DM thinks are too powerful. If he thinks that, he should simply ban them from the game.
When creating a character the player should choose 10 + (10 x beginning level) spells to try to research. These are presumed to already be in their spellbook if they succeed, and do not cost anything.

Lore (Ex): As the Bard's Bardic Knowledge ability.

Communication (Ex): Your knowledge of words allows you to express complex ideas with ease. When you successfully make a knowledge check to get an advantage in a certain situation you can give the same bonus to all creatures you are able to communicate with as a swift action. Any creature that can hear and understand you also gains this bonus, whether or not you are aware of it.

Skill Focus (Knowledge) (Ex): You may gain the skill focus feat as a bonus feat in any knowledge skill.

Extraordinary Knowledge (Ex): At 2nd level and every four levels thereafter a Knowledgeable gains one of the abilities below, which are grouped by relevant knowledge skill:

Local:
Gossip Knowledge: If a sentient creature comes from an area you have the relevant knowledge (local) skill for and has a normal level of interaction with the public you may attempt to beat a DC of 25 with a knowledge (local) check in order to know the creature's name, occupation, general appearance, general personality and general daily habits. It's DC 20 to know about someone who leads a fairly public life, DC 15 to know about a public figure, DC 30 to know about someone who generally keeps out of the way, and DC 35 to know about someone who deliberately shies away from most company.
Diplomatic Knowledge: You may use knowledge (local) in place of diplomacy checks when conversing with someone from the relevant area.
Local Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy into your spellbook the spells from the community and protection domains, without incurring the usual costs.

Dungeoneering:
Trap Knowledge: When you encounter a trap and can readily access it without springing it, you can make a knowledge (dungeoneering) check with a DC equal to 15 + the CR of the trap. If you succeed, you automatically know the location and type of any bypass to the trap (such as a secret button or lock). This does not automatically allow you to press that button or undo that lock, however.
Dungeon Knowledge: You may use knowledge (dungeoneering) in place of survival checks when in an underground environment.
Dungeon Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy into your spellbook the spells from the darkness and cavern domains, without incurring the usual costs.

Arcana:
Magic Knowledge: If you succeed on a DC 20 knowledge (arcana) check, you may give any caster making a caster level check (including yourself) a +2 bonus on that check.
Spellcraft Knowledge: You may use knowledge (arcana) in place of spellcraft checks when you are using the skill in respect to an arcane spell.
Arcane Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from any one Wizard domain (UA) into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs. You may gain this knowledge multiple times, choosing a new domain each time.

Nature:
Wild Knowledge: You may attempt to use wild empathy as a druid. If you beat a knowledge (nature) DC of 25 you may use the ability as described on page 35 of the PHB. If you fail to beat the DC you cannot use the ability on the animal in question for another 24 hours, but you can attempt to use it on any other within that time. You do not count as having the wild empathy for feats and prestige classes.
Survival Knowledge: When in an aboveground natural environment, you may use knowledge (nature) instead of survival checks when trying to get along in the wild or predict the weather.
Natural Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from the Plant and Animal domains into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs.

Architecture and Engineering:
Architecture Knowledge: When you can plainly see a structure created by a sentient species (from any angle) you can make a DC 25 knowledge (architecture and engineering) check to identify the race (or species) of the creators, their average craft modifier, and their sub-culture. If in a religious building you also know details about their religion. If in a building intended for casters you also know their magical practices.
Search Knowledge: When in a structure created by a sentient species you can use knowledge (architecture and engineering) checks in place of search checks.
Artificial Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from the Artifice domain and up to nine 'Wall' spells into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs.

Geography:
Trade Knowledge: You know where things can be bought and sold. You can track where a particular good is sold with a successful knowledge (Geography) check. The DC is 10 for common mundane items and goods (such as fish or swords), 15 for rare mundane items (like alchemical items) and minor magical items, 20 for very precious or rare mundane items and medium magical items and 25 for major magical items.
Survival Knowledge: You can use knowledge (geography) checks in place of survival checks when trying to keep from getting lost, avoid natural hazards, or gain bonuses to fortitude saves against bad weather.
Geographic Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells fro the Travel and Commerce domains into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs.

History:
Personal Historian: You can negate any penalties when doing research for a creature or object being 'obscure', like in truename research.
Historical Appraisal: You may use a knowledge (history) check in place of an appraisal check when examining objects of historical significance.
Historical Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy any 7 divination spells into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs. You may gain this knowledge multiple times, choosing different spells each time.

Nobility and Royalty:
Diplomatic Knowledge: You may use knowledge (nobility and royalty) instead of diplomacy checks when conversing with a member of the nobility or someone closely associated to them (such as the king's head chef or a nobleman's lover)
Noble Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from the Nobility and Community domains into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs.

Religion:
Diplomatic Knowledge: You may use knowledge (religion) checks in place of diplomacy checks when conversing with deeply religious people or clergy (but not just your average worshipper).
Religious Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from any one Cleric domain into your spellbook, without incurring the usual costs. You may gain this knowledge multiple times, choosing a new domain each time.

The Planes:
Interplanar Knowledge: You may add or subtract any number up to your knowledge (the planes) modifier to any roll made to determine the outcome of a teleportation spell, like teleport and plane shift.
Planar Survival Knowledge: You can use knowledge (the planes) in place of survival checks when on planes other than the material plane.
Multiplanar Spell Knowledge: You may automatically copy the spells from the Good and Evil domains OR the Law and Chaos domains OR the Air and Earth domains OR the Fire and Water domains, without incurring the usual costs. You may gain this knowledge multiple times, choosing a new pair of domains each time.


Supernatural Knowledge (Su):



I'm gonna leave it like that for a little while whilst I'm going on holiday. I'd like some comments on the power level, and what I should do for supernatural knowledge. I was thinking things like using knowledge (local) in places other than the location you took the skill for (with a penalty) and using knowledge (architecture and engineering), (nature) and (dungeoneering) to figure out the layout of surrounding land.

Morph Bark
2010-07-10, 09:18 AM
Interesting idea. I was wanting to make or see something for the Knowledge skills to have them do more, so this is nice to see. I will give it a more thorough look-over once I stop being tired from working outside in the heat.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-13, 07:29 PM
Someone (else) please comment! I put so much work into this, I think there must be at least something worth discussing, and I would really like some advice as to what to do with supernatural knowledge.

Sereg
2010-07-14, 09:42 AM
I used to think that the factotum was the adventuring version of the expert, but it looks like I was wrong. It's certainly an interesting idea. I suggest "sage" as a name.

Nidogg
2010-07-14, 12:13 PM
Hmm, maybey casting divination as spontanious like clerics do with heal/harm spells?

Telonius
2010-07-14, 12:56 PM
Suggestion on the name: Polymath.

Milskidasith
2010-07-14, 01:56 PM
So... it's a prepared spellcaster that can use any spell from the druid, sorc/wiz, and cleric lists, can gain abilities to automatically know certain spells even if the DM is stingy with spellbooks, and gets actual class features? EDIT: And I just realized it effectively gets ten spells every time it levels up, compared to a wizard's 2.

This is definitely a tier 0 class.

EDIT: Also, I don't like the system of knowledge checks linked too much; DC 15 as common knowledge is odd (seeing as it takes a relatively well trained person to be able to take 10 on such easy checks assuming their class is, well, commoner), and giving numerical bonuses to skills that already let you identify things in combat (a very useful ability) seems to be double dipping.

EDIT X2: Also, the amount of time needed to research spells is prohibitively long for actual gameplay; balancing around days of time is generally not going to work because you just fast forward if it is allowed (making the time irrelevant), but it also gives the DM a way to say "No, you can't use your class features."

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-15, 10:45 AM
THIS SUCKS!!

O.K, so what can I do to make it better? I'm definitely not going to give up on giving it eventual access to pretty much all spells, that's definitely an essential part of it's role. Also, remember it has to succeed on a knowledge check to get it's spells, so it's more like 3 spells per level, much more modest than you made out. If it still needs balancing, should I reduce all numbers on the spells per day list by one, and have the 0-but-bonus-spells-count for where I've put '1'?

Milskidasith
2010-07-15, 11:19 AM
O.K, so what can I do to make it better? I'm definitely not going to give up on giving it eventual access to pretty much all spells, that's definitely an essential part of it's role. Also, remember it has to succeed on a knowledge check to get it's spells, so it's more like 3 spells per level, much more modest than you made out. If it still needs balancing, should I reduce all numbers on the spells per day list by one, and have the 0-but-bonus-spells-count for where I've put '1'?

First of all: Please do not dismiss my criticism as being whining, as you did. You put a PEACH tag on your class, so you should be willing to accept criticism of your class.

Second of all: The concept is completely unsound. There is no way to balance a caster that gets access to all the spells other casters get. It is also very easy to optimize skill checks so you can always make them for your spells. You can't balance it by giving it less spells, because it's still far more versatile than any other caster, it just has to rest more often, which, as a full caster, it can basically do with impunity.

Third: You never actually stated the knowledge check needed to learn spells, but even assuming it's something as high as 10+5x spell level, it is easy to make the check 100% of the time except at very low levels, and of course you can just copy spells from scrolls like a wizard could, except it's all spells from every list, so you don't even need knowledge skills if you are willing to fork out a trivial sum of gold.

If you want a concept of this that is workable, I would suggest you look up the other base class on the front page which gets up to level 5 casting in all ways and minor versions of the abilities from all other magic classes.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-15, 11:43 AM
First of all: Please do not be rude. You put a PEACH tag on your class, don't act out when people criticize your class.

I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It was completely unintentional. However, although criticism is good, it is generally presumed that the C in PEACH is requesting constructive criticism. I'm sorry, but your criticism is not constructive. First you basically just tell me that my class sucks, without any ideas on how to improve it. When I send out another general plea for help improving it, instead of doing that you tell me to stop trying and use someone else's stuff instead. That, to be honest, doesn't help me improve my class.

Addressing the general public again, how can I limit the power and versatility of this class without undermining it's concept and flavour? I could give it less skill points, making it harder to maximise arcana, divine and nature, so that it rules out some spells. I could also make it choose certain spell lists to be easier and others to be harder, so that it has to specialise.

Milskidasith
2010-07-15, 11:48 AM
I'm sorry if I came across as rude. It was completely unintentional. However, although criticism is good, it is generally presumed that the C in PEACH is requesting constructive criticism. I'm sorry, but your criticism is not constructive. First you basically just tell me that my class sucks, without any ideas on how to improve it. When I send out another general plea for help improving it, instead of doing that you tell me to stop trying and use someone else's stuff instead. That, to be honest, doesn't help me improve my class.

Addressing the general public again, how can I limit the power and versatility of this class without undermining it's concept and flavour? I could give it less skill points, making it harder to maximise arcana, divine and nature, so that it rules out some spells. I could also make it choose certain spell lists to be easier and others to be harder, so that it has to specialise.

You cannot make a class that gets full access to every spell list and hope it will be balanced. I am sorry I cannot be more helpful, but there is simply no way to do that; all a wizard has is the ability to cast spells and he's T1. Giving a class all wizard spells with more automatic spells, all spells from every other list, and class features will never be balanced.

If you want it to be balanced, you could give it some knowledge based combat features and drop the spellcasting down to fifth or six level spells, max, and then it could be pretty solidly T3, but there's no way to give a class access to every possible spellcaster's spell list and not have it be strictly better than said spellcasters.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-15, 12:02 PM
Stuff.

Thanks for toning down a bit. I just find it a bit annoying when people attack homebrew quite harshly without offering improvements.

I see your point. I think, however, that there should be some way to be able to limit it's access. This is quite strange flavour wise, but how about the spells it researches slowly decay in it's spellbook, and after 10 days become illegible, unusable, and need to be researched again. I could cut down the spell research time to a fixed 1 day. Would that be enough to balance it?

Milskidasith
2010-07-15, 12:10 PM
Thanks for toning down a bit. I just find it a bit annoying when people attack homebrew quite harshly without offering improvements.

I see your point. I think, however, that there should be some way to be able to limit it's access. This is quite strange flavour wise, but how about the spells it researches slowly decay in it's spellbook, and after 10 days become illegible, unusable, and need to be researched again. I could cut down the spell research time to a fixed 1 day. Would that be enough to balance it?

That makes it so it only knows ten spells at any given time if it spends all its time researching, which is a rather pathetically small amount. Even so, allowing access to any ninth level spell from any list is still never going to be balanced. In the example given, it might be weak because it doesn't know many spells, but it's still going to step on toes because it can cast the best spells all its allies do and change its list every day, and if it can still permanently learn from scrolls, your solution wouldn't fix anything.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-15, 12:20 PM
O.K, so what about my idea earlier, making it specialise on certain spell lists, and having others be harder to research? What about DC = 20 + (3 x spell level) for one list, 20 + (4 x spell level) for another, 20 + (5 x spell level) for a third, and 20 + (6 x spell level) for all others?

Milskidasith
2010-07-15, 12:21 PM
O.K, so what about my idea earlier, making it specialise on certain spell lists, and having others be harder to research? What about DC = 20 + (3 x spell level) for one list, 20 + (4 x spell level) for another, 20 + (5 x spell level) for a third, and 20 + (6 x spell level) for all others?

All that does is make the class require skill optimization to even function. It doesn't make it any weaker, though it does make it essentially impossible to actually learn any spells at low levels, unless you can take 20. Anyway, with a +30 item, 23 ranks in the relevant skill, and a +10 int bonus, you can essentially get any spell off any list without requiring a check except for your fourth+ lists ninth level spells.

However, without skill items, it becomes hard to even learn spells from your primary list.

Fizban
2010-07-16, 03:38 AM
I agree with Milskidasith that any class with 9th level spells of multiple types is going to be overpowered, even with a cut to spells per day. I think it could work if it capped at 7th level spells at 17th level though. I'd actually give it a tad more spells per level (say max 5) so it wouldn't be too much behind a Theurge then. Basically the main problem with MTs is that you're always 6 levels behind without shenanigans, even if the end result wouldn't be too bad, and a base class of course solves that problem.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-16, 09:38 AM
So, the general idea is to limit them to 7th level spells? That sounds good. I'll do that at some point, when I'm not weighed down by sloth. I think the DC can stay at 20 + 3 x spell level, seeing as any knowledgeable worth his salt will have at least +2 int bonus and max ranks in at least one spell knowledge skill. They get retries anyway.

TheLonelyScribe
2010-07-17, 02:19 PM
Edited the table to include recently discussed changes. Also working up the energy to put in supernatural knowledge at some point.