Iron Heart Surge question.

[dgnslyr]

Due to Iron Heart Surge's bad wording, there's the notorious use of it to IHS away the baddies. What happens to said victim, and how does said victim die? Vaporization? Implosion? Annihilation from a beam of pure gouda fired from Martial Adept's mouth?

[Snake-Aes]

The enemy turns into a piece of Gorgonzola.

[Mike_G]

The centrifugal force of Robert E Howard spinning in his grave at the muchkinny exploitation of a brilliant pulp trope hurls the target into space.

[Curmudgeon]

The baddies and all the characters die from the metagame impact of the DM smacking the player with the nearest, heaviest book at hand.

[Douglas]

There are precisely three categories of things that IHS can end: spells, conditions, and effects.

Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm) and conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) are explicitly defined in the rules, and there is absolutely no way a bad guy could qualify as either of those (with the possible exception of summoned creatures). That leaves 'effect'. Now, I can't point to a clear RAW definition of that term for you, but I can tell you that my not-quite-so-clear personal definition (something along the lines of "result of a clear rules mechanical ability; parts of the setting don't count, and neither do cohorts/followers/thralls/etc.") would not under any circumstances include the bad guys, and I expect the vast majority of DMs would agree with me on that score.

So, nothing happens because it's an invalid use of the maneuver, even by RAW, under any reasonable definition of "effect".

[Zeful]

The baddies and all the characters die from the metagame impact of the DM smacking the player with the nearest, heaviest book at hand.

Most DMs should carry a nice heavy bat for these situations. They wouldn't want to damage their books.

[Cicciograna]

Due to Iron Heart Surge's bad wording, there's the notorious use of it to IHS away the baddies. What happens to said victim, and how does said victim die? Vaporization? Implosion? Annihilation from a beam of pure gouda fired from Martial Adept's mouth?

The enemies simply vanish. They leave nothing behind.

In truth they're whisked to an alternate Universe, populated by all those who suffered the wrath of IHS. This Universe, where the most nefarious spells, enemies and stars dwell, is dominated by the first being ever neutralized by IHS: nobody knows its true form, as it's a cunning shapechanger capable of assuming the form of anything Surged, but his might is constantly waxing. His whereabout are unknown, but he's assembling a powerful cult whose main objective is to develop time-warping capabilities: their plan is to warp back to the moment when IHS was written and interrupt the process, thus merging the two timelines (the "IHS one" and "non-IHS one") in a single one.
The First IHSed is currently developing an epic spell to survive the Paradox ensuing.

[balistafreak]

There are precisely three categories of things that IHS can end: spells, conditions, and effects.

Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/spells.htm) and conditions (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/conditions.htm) are explicitly defined in the rules, and there is absolutely no way a bad guy could qualify as either of those (with the possible exception of summoned creatures). That leaves 'effect'. Now, I can't point to a clear RAW definition of that term for you, but I can tell you that my not-quite-so-clear personal definition (something along the lines of "result of a clear rules mechanical ability; parts of the setting don't count, and neither do cohorts/followers/thralls/etc.") would not under any circumstances include the bad guys, and I expect the vast majority of DMs would agree with me on that score.

So, nothing happens because it's an invalid use of the maneuver, even by RAW, under any reasonable definition of "effect".

We know that it's stupid and wrong. You're missing the point of this thread. :smallwink:

[Douglas]

We know that it's stupid and wrong. You're missing the point of this thread. :smallwink:
Maybe, but there's this persistent misconception that this use actually is compatible with RAW. This notion is false, and I am occasionally rather annoyed by its persistence, so I point out whenever it comes up that no, not even RAW is that stupid with regard to IHS.

[Snake-Aes]

Maybe, but there's this persistent misconception that this use actually is compatible with RAW. This notion is false, and I am occasionally rather annoyed by its persistence, so I point out whenever it comes up that no, not even RAW is that stupid with regard to IHS.

Well, by RAW it does let you to surge away the villain's haughtyness...

[Douglas]

Well, by RAW it does let you to surge away the villain's haughtyness...
Really. I don't see that in the list of spells or conditions, and it would require a really weird definition for it to qualify as an effect.

[Kaiyanwang]

The enemy turns into a piece of Gorgonzola.

*tastes the transformed enemy*

Gorgonzola... WHY Gorgonzola?

[balistafreak]

IHS has reached meme status. It's applications (in humor) aren't supposed to make one whit of sense.

Kind of like Chuck Norris jokes. Yeah, we all realize that most of them are absolutely retarded, but somehow they just barely remain funny.

[Claudius Maximus]

While we're raining on parades here, I'll also note that IHS can't remove half the stuff people seriously claim it can. It won't fix petrification, paralysis, daze, stun, or anything else that precludes taking actions or moving. And I seriously doubt it can remove domination or charm effects.

[Critical]

They get roundhouse kicked by Chuck Norris.

[Douglas]

And I seriously doubt it can remove domination or charm effects.
It can, but only if you can convince your DM that using IHS with that particular target is in line with the commands and/or influence of the spell. Against such spells, it's not the mechanics of the maneuver that are the problem, but rather taking such an action in the first place, and the restrictions on actions and behavior (particularly from charm spells) are sufficiently flexible and vague that it's largely up to DM judgment and player creativity in arguing.

[The-Mage-King]

The enemies simply vanish. They leave nothing behind.

In truth they're whisked to an alternate Universe, populated by all those who suffered the wrath of IHS. This Universe, where the most nefarious spells, enemies and stars dwell, is dominated by the first being ever neutralized by IHS: nobody knows its true form, as it's a cunning shapechanger capable of assuming the form of anything Surged, but his might is constantly waxing. His whereabout are unknown, but he's assembling a powerful cult whose main objective is to develop time-warping capabilities: their plan is to warp back to the moment when IHS was written and interrupt the process, thus merging the two timelines (the "IHS one" and "non-IHS one") in a single one.
The First IHSed is currently developing an epic spell to survive the Paradox ensuing.

...Someone run this campaign. We need to see how it'd work.

[Sliver]

You don't IHS away the enemy, but how he effects you! He becomes indifferent and everything he had done ever to effect you resets!

I hope he isn't a long living undead or something, because maybe he dropped the loot you now use. As it is an effect, *puff* no loot. All the bad deeds he did that got you rewarded and famous? Yeah, gone too. Enjoy.

[dgnslyr]

*tastes the transformed enemy*

Gorgonzola... WHY Gorgonzola?

Now I want to see a spell called Flesh to Cheese.

[Khellendross]

It seems to be worded fine to me. People just want to try to get the most out of it. The oh the suns blinding(for those who are drow etc) me so I iron heart the sun away. No you iron heart the racial ability then it comes back then you'll just get blinded again because it's not a perm fix.

That's just my opinion. Wrong or right it's how I see it's worded. People try to go over read the power sometimes but if you DM lets you iron heart the sun away then cool LOL

[The Glyphstone]

Party poopers.


No you iron heart the racial ability then it comes back then you'll just get blinded again because it's not a perm fix.

See, that's looking at it the wrong way - if you took that approach along the reasonable reading of IHS, then the maneuver is utterly worthless, because every effect in existence has a duration of some sort, so they would all immediately back after you Surged them away too.

Surging away your racial Light Sensitivity could be a reasonable, if powerful, version of the power, but you'd have to decide on a duration - probably till the end of the encounter, is how I would do it.

[Khellendross]

Party poopers.



See, that's looking at it the wrong way - if you took that approach along the reasonable reading of IHS, then the maneuver is utterly worthless, because every effect in existence has a duration of some sort, so they would all immediately back after you Surged them away too.

Surging away your racial Light Sensitivity could be a reasonable, if powerful, version of the power, but you'd have to decide on a duration - probably till the end of the encounter, is how I would do it.

Not true, if someone casts a deaf spell or something on you then you can iron that away and it doesn't come back. I was referring to a racial hindrance. It says you can use it on spells effecting you or conditions. I you're blinded by the sun then you iron heart that blindness away but you still have that racial problem so don't look up again. You don't iron the sun away which is what people want it to work like.

[tyckspoon]

It seems to be worded fine to me. People just want to try to get the most out of it.

I find it really hard to claim IHS is worded fine as is, because it defeats so many things that make no sense and is helpless against things it really should trump. For example, somebody is casting an Epic Death Spell or a Fimbulwinter or something.. and you can Surge to end the *entire thing on everybody affected*, because IHS ends the whole effect. But somebody hits you with a Hold Person, and you're not allowed to go "Ha! Your cowardly magics will not hold me!" and IHS that? It's a good and necessary power, but as it's written it's one of the most poorly-implemented abilities in all of D&D.

[The Glyphstone]

Not true, if someone casts a deaf spell or something on you then you can iron that away and it doesn't come back. I was referring to a racial hindrance. It says you can use it on spells effecting you or conditions. I you're blinded by the sun then you iron heart that blindness away but you still have that racial problem so don't look up again. You don't iron the sun away which is what people want it to work like.

You didn't make that distinction though - the racial blindness versus the spell, which was the important part, you just said 'it goes away then comes back because the removal isn't permanent' - literally applied, that would affect spells too. The real point here is that IHS is poorly worded.

Anyways, back on topic:
When you Iron Heart Surge an enemy, it flings them into the sun. This allows for paradoxical hilarity when you IHS the sun into itself.:smallbiggrin:

[Khellendross]

You didn't make that distinction though - the racial blindness versus the spell, which was the important part, you just said 'it goes away then comes back because the removal isn't permanent' - literally applied, that would affect spells too. The real point here is that IHS is poorly worded.

Anyways, back on topic:
When you Iron Heart Surge an enemy, it flings them into the sun. This allows for paradoxical hilarity when you IHS the sun into itself.:smallbiggrin:

Oh, sorry lol I guess I worded it wrong myself and I guess I just know how it's suppose to work so when I read it I read it as if it's not poorly written.

[Optimystik]

Really. I don't see that in the list of spells or conditions, and it would require a really weird definition for it to qualify as an effect.

The problem does not lie with IHS - the problem lies with the fact that WotC has not defined "effect" anywhere in D&D.

Which is why I wish they had the Magic guys put their cards down and come over once in awhile to help them playtest.

[Talbot]

Argument I recently had with my (reasonable) DM:

Can IHS get you out of a grapple?

[Maerok]

Is gravity a valid target for IHS? Or living?

Link to IHS page, if anyone needs it (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=4)

[Escheton]

Living is a condition, conditions have effects, effects can be IHS'd...
Gravity is an effect...No, it has an effect.
I don't recommend weightlessness in a world where warblade fighters dungeoncrash people though.

[Drascin]

Most DMs should carry a nice heavy bat for these situations. They wouldn't want to damage their books.

I just use my Anima player's handbook. Goddess knows it's not useful for much else anyway, and it's nicely thick :smalltongue:.

[AslanCross]

The centrifugal force of Robert E Howard spinning in his grave at the muchkinny exploitation of a brilliant pulp trope hurls the target into space.

I like this one for hilarity, though I'd have the IHS-using PC get thrown into space instead.


The baddies and all the characters die from the metagame impact of the DM smacking the player with the nearest, heaviest book at hand.

http://www.wizards.com/magic/images/mtgcom/wallpapers/Wallpaper_WrathOfGod_1280x960.jpg

[Draz74]

Is gravity a valid target for IHS?

Assuming the universe is open or flat, and that The Big Crunch will never happen (which is the dominant theory among cosmologists, currently), I fail to see how you could argue that gravity has a duration.

[Oslecamo]

While we're raining on parades here, I'll also note that IHS can't remove half the stuff people seriously claim it can. It won't fix petrification, paralysis, daze, stun, or anything else that precludes taking actions or moving. And I seriously doubt it can remove domination or charm effects.

On the contrary, that's the other half of the joke!:smalltongue:

ToB fans claim that IHS was meant to represent stuff like Concan screaming and releasing himself from incapacitating effects by sheer force of will. Wich is precisely something that IHS can't do at all as you can't take standard actions while paralyzed!

Heck, we even have Jack Ragan, a manga character, that can indeed destroy pretty much anything just by flexing his muscles (including logic when it gets on the way of the story).

So, to answer the OPs question, the enemies are shattered into tiny pieces by the hotblooded waves emited from the warblade's flexed muscles.:smallcool:

[Thiyr]

Assuming the universe is open or flat, and that The Big Crunch will never happen (which is the dominant theory among cosmologists, currently), I fail to see how you could argue that gravity has a duration.

I may be misremembering the introductory and decidedly limited cosmology class I took last year, but I thought the current theory was the exact opposite, that the universe would continue spreading at an increasing rate.

Also, on this science-y note, can anyone think of a use for IHSing the strong nuclear forces binding together the subatomic particles of your body?

[Axolotl]

Also, on this science-y note, can anyone think of a use for IHSing the strong nuclear forces binding together the subatomic particles of your body?The most awesome anecdote you could tell in the afterlife?

[Snake-Aes]

On the contrary, that's the other half of the joke!:smalltongue:

ToB fans claim that IHS was meant to represent stuff like Concan screaming and releasing himself from incapacitating effects by sheer force of will. Wich is precisely something that IHS can't do at all as you can't take standard actions while paralyzed!

Heck, we even have Jack Ragan, a manga character, that can indeed destroy pretty much anything just by flexing his muscles (including logic when it gets on the way of the story).

So, to answer the OPs question, the enemies are shattered into tiny pieces by the hotblooded waves emited from the warblade's flexed muscles.:smallcool:
Didn't Rakkan break a Maze spell by emanating badassery and tracked chicks using the scent of their underwear?

[Zeful]

Didn't Rakkan break a Maze spell by emanating badassery and tracked chicks using the scent of their underwear?

He used sexual harassment against his jailers to become familiar with their magic to locate the small flaw in the barrier dimension and then broke it with his own magic power (I'm not making this up, it's explained later).

He made it look like he simply flexed and broke the dimension.

And no, he didn't, the ermine did.

[Optimystik]

ToB fans claim that IHS was meant to represent stuff like Concan screaming and releasing himself from incapacitating effects by sheer force of will. Wich is precisely something that IHS can't do at all as you can't take standard actions while paralyzed!

Debatable: Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) specifically states you can take purely mental actions. Is IHS mental?

Regardless, you are still incorrect - most psionic powers and SLAs are standard actions, and paralysis does not prevent their use.

[tyckspoon]

Debatable: Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) specifically states you can take purely mental actions. Is IHS mental?


No- it is a general rule that all maneuvers require free physical motion (so you can't use them if you get Pinned or tied up, for example) and IHS has nothing in its rules that would exempt it. It's still true that you can't IHS out of being Held/Paralyzed/Stunned/Dazed because of that.

[Optimystik]

So the Initiator just needs an SLA/mentally-activated item that will break paralysis (preferably as a free/swift/immediate), and he can IHS away anything else that may befall him. Or just be immune to paralysis to start with.

[dgnslyr]

So the Initiator just needs an SLA/mentally-activated item that will break paralysis (preferably as a free/swift/immediate), and he can IHS away anything else that may befall him. Or just be immune to paralysis to start with.

Warforged, maybe?

[Oslecamo]

Debatable: Paralyzed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#paralyzed) specifically states you can take purely mental actions. Is IHS mental?

If IHS was purely mental, how could it be called a martial maneuver? Like tyckspoon pointed out you need to be able to flex your muscles.:smallbiggrin:



Regardless, you are still incorrect - most psionic powers and SLAs are standard actions, and paralysis does not prevent their use.
Ok psionics and monsters get very nice things. And daze/stunned still screws you.



So the Initiator just needs an SLA/mentally-activated item that will break paralysis (preferably as a free/swift/immediate), and he can IHS away anything else that may befall him. Or just be immune to paralysis to start with.

Well then why do you need IHS at all? Just get a trinket for each possible problem! Become a necropolitan and you're immune to pretty much any status ailment out there! Get the party's cleric to cast mindblank, death ward and freedom of movement on you!:smalltongue:

[2xMachina]

Flex your mental muscles!

[Draz74]

I may be misremembering the introductory and decidedly limited cosmology class I took last year, but I thought the current theory was the exact opposite, that the universe would continue spreading at an increasing rate.

Yeah, what I said might have been ambiguous, but I meant that "the Big Crunch will never happen" is the dominant theory. Which is in agreement with the open universe you're describing.

[Optimystik]

Ok psionics and monsters get very nice things. And daze/stunned still screws you.

Guess again (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#unconditionalPower) :smalltongue:

(And hoboy, if you let me bring in Hyperconscious...)


Well then why do you need IHS at all? Just get a trinket for each possible problem!

It works for WoW, why not D&D? :smallwink: