[E6] A Problem with Dragons

[RufusCorvus]

In preparing for a potential E6 campaign, I've run into a snag: dragons. Normally, this wouldn't be a huge problem, but seeing as how the campaign would be set in Eberron... it's sort of important I give them some thought.

The problem I've found is this: the only CR-appropriate dragons (this being around CR 10 and under, accounting for their inherent lowered CR) are way too small. A juvenile red dragon (CR listed at 10, so about, what, 12 or 13?) is the size of a horse. That's just not going to work. If this were my own world, I'd work with that, but in Eberron I feel like the dragons need to be at least Huge.

So, I thought of substitutes, like advancing a wyvern by 1 HD (making it Huge) and then giving it the Half-Dragon template. It works, sort of. It sits in the right CR range, but I'm unimpressed with it's 1/day breath weapon. It also lacks a lot of the abilities I'm looking for: specifically, the ability to change forms. I know I could just give it the Change Shape ability, but... I don't know. I guess I want to see if there are any alternatives I may have missed.

In short: I'm looking for something to use to model a traditional D&D high-level dragon at around CR 10. Specifically, I want it to be (at least) of Huge size, with a threatening breath weapon usable more than once per day, and the ability to assume a humanoid form. I can take or leave sorcerer-type spellcasting.

Does anyone have any suggestions?

[Psyx]

Take a dragon with CR10-12 and change the size to whatever is appropriate?

[true_shinken]

Maybe you should check d20 Modern's dragons. They are still big but not that powerful.

[Aldgar]

There's a feat in Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic(I forgot which) that lets Half-Dragons use their Breath Weapon at will with 1d4 rounds recharge time.

No idea for change shape. Maybe UMD + Wands of Alter Self?

[dspeyer]

Wasn't the idea of E6 to stick to the believable-people-doing-extraordinary-things genre of fantasy? Dragons *should* be way over-CR. Killing one should require some special trick, or a subquest to find a dragon-killing weapon.

[awa]

Honestly i was never a big fan of powerful dnd dragons they spend way to much time casting spells. The wyvern with half dragon template is good although personaly i would probally just swap it sting with it's breath weapon.

If you willing to home brew i gave dragons a weakness that they were extra vulnurable to attacks at their underbelly first it gave a reason for the dragon to fight competent foes on the ground, it made them weaker so i could use more powerful dragons in general.

I also second the idea of searching for powerful weapons/ armor. Dragons should be a big end game boss making them adventure for gear that allows them a chance of killing them should be part of it otherwise why even use a dragon if it's just going to be another big monster.

[RufusCorvus]

Take a dragon with CR10-12 and change the size to whatever is appropriate?

Actually, I did think of that just after I posted. I think it'll work, but I'd like to go over other available options.


Maybe you should check d20 Modern's dragons. They are still big but not that powerful.

Are they available online? I don't have access to any d20 Modern books.


There's a feat in Races of the Dragon or Dragon Magic(I forgot which) that lets Half-Dragons use their Breath Weapon at will with 1d4 rounds recharge time.

No idea for change shape. Maybe UMD + Wands of Alter Self?

Thanks, that feat (looked it up: Dragon Breath in Races of the Dragon) will definitely make my Half-Dragon idea work better.

I don't think Alter Self will work too well: the forms have to be Dragon type (and within one size category, making the minimum size Large for a Huge dragon). I'm thinking I'd just be better off giving it the Change Self ability.


Wasn't the idea of E6 to stick to the believable-people-doing-extraordinary-things genre of fantasy? Dragons *should* be way over-CR. Killing one should require some special trick, or a subquest to find a dragon-killing weapon.

I agree. That's why I'm sticking them around CR 10-12. Well over the E6 "level cap." CR 13+ just seems way overkill for an E6 game.

[Maroon]

I don't play AD&D III, but wasn't that CR thing also based on the number of people on each side? Quick fix: Hirelings. Give a few peasants crossbows and tell 'em to aim for that big red scaly thing. A few people getting eaten really drives home that gritty fantasy feeling, and some will even hit the dragon (you might have to pay some of them afterwards, though).

Also, consider this: Even Conan ran from some things. Aragorn did not fight Sauron's armies at the Black Gate expecting to win. Beowulf died fighting a dragon. Maybe you should remind your players that going toe to toe with a dragon will kill them?

Are dragons killed with any regularity in Eberron? Will peasants remark, "Oh, look, another dead dragon. What a shame, he still owed me money"? What exactly is the legendary dragon slayers to dragons ratio?

[Morph Bark]

I agree. That's why I'm sticking them around CR 10-12. Well over the E6 "level cap." CR 13+ just seems way overkill for an E6 game.

A party of four E6-maxed (effectively level 10) characters with appropriate wealth for their level and sufficient use of tactics can take up to CR 14. The DMG lists creatures of [party level]+5 and higher as overpowering, but four ECL 10 characters would be CR 14 or thereabouts, so there is a 50-50 chance of them dying or winning. Either way you have an epic end battle.

[Jack_Simth]

Well, it depends. Are dragons just another monster, or are dragons "Magical, flying, armor-plated, fire-breathing, hyper-intelligent killing machine" (http://www.exiern.com/?p=59)s?

If they're just another monster, then you can apply the half-dragon template to something, pick up the Dragon Breath feat, and give it a few levels of Sorcerer for Alter Self and Disguise Self. A Half-Dragon(Celestial/Fiendish(Monstrous Scorpion(Huge))) with four Sorcerer levels, Disguise Self, and Alter Self.

Celestial/Fiendish gives it an Int score. Half-dragon gives it 4 Charisma. The elite array, a level boost, and a minor item can be used to get it's Charisma up high enough to use 2nd level spells.

Granted, the thing is very, very stupid, but it is quite the melee brute, and about CR 11.

[Grumman]

Are dragons killed with any regularity in Eberron? Will peasants remark, "Oh, look, another dead dragon. What a shame, he still owed me money"? What exactly is the legendary dragon slayers to dragons ratio?
I'm under the impression that in Eberron the slaying of dragons just doesn't happen. The OP's desire to nerf dragons to match the nerfed PCs seems out of place for Eberron, and it's definitely out of place for E6.

[Coidzor]

I'm under the impression that in Eberron the slaying of dragons just doesn't happen. The OP's desire to nerf dragons to match the nerfed PCs seems out of place for Eberron, and it's definitely out of place for E6.

Considering dragons have the bomb in Eberron, yeah...

[RufusCorvus]

A party of four E6-maxed (effectively level 10) characters with appropriate wealth for their level and sufficient use of tactics can take up to CR 14. The DMG lists creatures of [party level]+5 and higher as overpowering, but four ECL 10 characters would be CR 14 or thereabouts, so there is a 50-50 chance of them dying or winning. Either way you have an epic end battle.

I'll keep that in mind.


Well, it depends. Are dragons just another monster, or are dragons "Magical, flying, armor-plated, fire-breathing, hyper-intelligent killing machine" (http://www.exiern.com/?p=59)s?

If they're just another monster, then you can apply the half-dragon template to something, pick up the Dragon Breath feat, and give it a few levels of Sorcerer for Alter Self and Disguise Self. A Half-Dragon(Celestial/Fiendish(Monstrous Scorpion(Huge))) with four Sorcerer levels, Disguise Self, and Alter Self.


Yes to everything but the hyper-intelligence. I've never liked that aspect of dragons. I don't object to them being intelligent, but not nigh-godlike.

But I think the four levels of sorcerer for Alter and Disguise Self is the best way to go about it. Thank you for that suggestion.


I'm under the impression that in Eberron the slaying of dragons just doesn't happen. The OP's desire to nerf dragons to match the nerfed PCs seems out of place for Eberron, and it's definitely out of place for E6.

I respectfully disagree on both counts, but I don't want to turn this into a debate.

I think I've found the best solution for me. Thank you to Jack_Simth and everyone involved.