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Flob
2010-07-10, 01:09 PM
1. Well, I don't fully understand the power, can somebody explain it to me as if I was a new player? Like, how much can I change, ect.

2. What powers should I take? I plan to keep....

1st level: Inertial Armor
2nd level: Swarm of Crystals, Psionic Knock, Empathic Transfer
3rd level: Body Adjustment, Wall of Energy, Energy Missile (When I get time),
4th level: Psychic Reformation, Dimension Door (psionic)

So, that leaves me in need of 4 more 1st level powers, one more 2nd or 1st level, and one more 1st 2nd or 3rd level power. Help? I'm a 7th level Egoist psion, and am debating on taking Metamorphisis, simply because than I would overshadow our melee EVEN MORE.

Douglas
2010-07-10, 01:26 PM
Here's how Psychic Reformation works:
1) Pick a number of levels. Let's call this number X.
2) Pay 50 * X experience points, split evenly between you and the subject. If you're using it on yourself, you pay the full cost.
3) The subject reverts all skill ranks, feats, and powers known to what they were X levels ago.
4) The subject then chooses new feats, skill ranks, and powers known as if advancing through those last X levels again. The new choices must be valid for a character who is actually advancing through those levels for the first time - Psychic Reformation allows you to switch between valid character builds, it does not make any builds valid that were not valid before. Other choices, such as class and ability score increases, must remain the same.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 01:31 PM
Remember, though, that you are at your new level. So level-based pre-requisites are the new ones instead of the ones of the state you are returning to for the retcon. This means, for example, that old lvl 3 feat could be used for a feat that demands a higher BAB, or a level 5 power can be learned from an old level 1 power.

Flob
2010-07-10, 01:42 PM
Remember, though, that you are at your new level. So level-based pre-requisites are the new ones instead of the ones of the state you are returning to for the retcon. This means, for example, that old lvl 3 feat could be used for a feat that demands a higher BAB, or a level 5 power can be learned from an old level 1 power.

That uh.... that doesn't sound legal for some reason. Can somebody confirm or disproove this?

Curmudgeon
2010-07-10, 02:05 PM
That uh.... that doesn't sound legal for some reason. Can somebody confirm or disproove this?
That's only by a very grammar-specific reading of this line:
The subject must abide by the standard rules for selecting skills and feats, and so it cannot take feats for which it doesn’t qualify or take crossclass skills as class skills. Since the present tense is used, Snake-Aes's interpretation would have the following consequences:

You could choose feats at previous levels based on your current qualifications.
You would pay for skills at cross-class rates at previous levels if your current (last) class does not have them as class skills.
This is a dubious reading, of course. Talk to your DM.

Flob
2010-07-10, 02:45 PM
Okay, so Douglas' version is the correct one, than on to the secound part of the question, what powers should I take?

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 03:10 PM
It's not a big deal because when you drop the old stuff to reform, anything you pick up will take those in consideration. Thus you can't, say, replace TWF with Improved TWF, but you could replace that lvl 6 feat with point-blank shot to greater-twf if your BAB allows it.
Or, rather, with ITWF since retraining so early would also drop ITWF, letting you better use that then-halfassed slot and worry about the newest slots.

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 03:19 PM
Think of a Psion as a Sorcerer - you want powers that you will get a lot of mileage out of manifesting repeatedly, not situational ones that will only come up occasionally.

In other words, ditch Psionic Knock. If you really are faced with that many locked doors, chests etc, Time Hop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/timeHop.htm) is your power of choice for getting rid of them.

On Metamorphosis:
Metamorphosis is amazingly versatile and will give you a lot of utility - like Polymorph, if your DM allows it, take it! The true potential of the power depends on your race, but even as a human(oid) you can get a ton of mileage out of it. For example, the power does not bar transformations into fey, magical beasts or giants, so feel free to become a Pixie to escape capture, or a Manticore to spray your enemies from afar, even an Ooze to slither your way through an underground tunnel. If you are an aberration (Elan, Synad), construct (Warforged/Psiforged) or Outsider (Tiefling, Neraphim) you can overcome some of the restrictions of the power. The Metamorphic Transfer feat will also allow you to grab supernatural abilities of the form you assume.

Unlike polymorph, you can turn into an object as well, the application of which is limited only by your imagination. A crate in a warehouse to avoid the guards; the Rogue's dagger while he sneaks you into enemy territory; your bodyguard's halberd, while your commoner double does all the talking (perhaps assisted by your mindlink with him), etc.

Furthermore, you "retain your own mind" - unlike a polymorphed wizard, you have everything you need to manifest powers no matter what form you take. (Even as an Ooze, or an object.) And finally, unlike most other psionic classes you don't have to burn a feat to get this amazing power since you're an Egoist.


Body Adjustment is also a turkey. For the same 5 PP, you could gain 25 HP from Vigor rather than a piddly 1d12 from BA. Sure they're temporary, but that's what Share Pain and your Psicrystal are for. (Swapping BA for Vigor will also give you a 3rd-level slot for Time Hop.)

The rest of the powers you choose depend on your role in the party. Are you a Gish? Blaster? Controller? Utility? (Egoists do very well at the gish role.)

Flob
2010-07-10, 03:36 PM
For the role: I'm a damage dealer/save someone when they're about to die character. Body adjustment is because we don't have a proper healer, just an Artificer with a couple of wands, but maybe I can convince him to get a wand of knock. I do a little control, but that's rare, and done mostly by Wall of Energy. So, what damaging powers should I take is the real question here? I've been using Energy Push, but I realized that sucks. Hard. I'm going to take Energy Missile when I get 3 weeks to learn it, so I'm leaving a slot open.

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 03:50 PM
You can't heal anyone with Body Adjustment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/bodyAdjustment.htm) - the range is Personal. Most Egoist powers are self-only, because that's what Egoist means - Self-ist.

You have two ways to be a psionic healer if that is really your goal: The Life Mantle (by being an Ardent, Erudite, Psywar or Wilder), and the Sangehirn PrC. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625c)

An Egoist does damage best by buffing himself to the nines and wading into melee (either using metamorphosis, or not) rather than by blasting. The classic Egoist gish build is Ranger 1/Fighter 1/Egoist 8/Slayer 10, for BAB 16 and ML 18 even without Fractional BAB. In your case, you can slip 3 Sangehirn levels in there to manifest your healing powers on other targets, and even get by with dropping a Ranger level to stay BAB 16 and ML 18. (Ranger 1/Egoist 6/Sangehirn 3/Slayer 10.)

The former is SRD-only, the latter of course includes Mind's Eye, but both builds can be constructed without needing a single book. Both builds also give you martial weapon proficiency and heavy armor proficiency - you can wear both while manifesting your powers without penalty, because powers have no somatic components or failure chance.

(Note: Sangehirns can also manifest Vigor on other targets, which again is more efficient than Body Adjustment in many instances.)

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-10, 03:52 PM
Optymistik: why Ranger 2 on that build? is that to get higher bab for easier entry into slayer?

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 03:55 PM
Optymistik: why Ranger 2 on that build? is that to get higher bab for easier entry into slayer?

Now that you mention it, the Track feat needed for Slayer can be gotten free at Ranger 1. So Ranger 1/Fighter 1 for a free floating feat might be a better choice than Ranger 2 in the former build.

But yes, you would want +1 BAB to get to 16 (and the full four attacks.)

Flob
2010-07-10, 04:05 PM
I don't like gishes, I like to just go pure like, one, maybe two classes, and sometimes a prestige class. It's how I do. So, 20/20 manifestation at level 20. Ummmm... a thought has occured. With Psychic Reformation, could I change my discipline? And as for the Body Adjustment, I was combining that with Empathic Transfew in bad situations where like, our Articficer was down, or needed help (healing can be problematic, what with the Artificer healing and our tank being a halfling soulknife).

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 04:14 PM
"Gish" is not synonym of multiclassing, as there are many single-class setups with that concept in mind, like egoists, psychic warriors and the like.

Reformation specifies feats,skills,powers. Technically the discipline is a first-level feat, but it strikes me odd allowing that to change.

tyckspoon
2010-07-10, 04:15 PM
Technically the discipline is a first-level feat, but it strikes me odd allowing that to change.

Whut. There is no possible reading by which your discipline choice is a 'feat' any more than a Wizard choosing to specialize is selecting a feat. Neither one is a valid choice for redoing by way of Reformation.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 04:19 PM
Whut. There is no possible reading by which your discipline choice is a 'feat' any more than a Wizard choosing to specialize is selecting a feat. Neither one is a valid choice for redoing by way of Reformation.

No. The class entry for wizards and psions do have that difference. It is shown as a feat class feature for psions, and they are forced to pick one. For wizards it doesn't happen that way nor are they forced to specialize.

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 04:21 PM
I don't like gishes, I like to just go pure like, one, maybe two classes, and sometimes a prestige class. It's how I do. So, 20/20 manifestation at level 20.

Then you are better off as a Kineticist, Shaper or Telepath. Check the Egoist List (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#egoistPsychometabolismDisciplinePowe rs) - most of the powers are centered around getting your hands dirty, which means you are best off as a gish since you'll be that close. You should not rely exclusively on metamorphosis for this purpose, as it can be dispelled (as can Inertial Armor), and then where will you be?

The other three are at least designed to do their thing well back from the front line.

EDIT: Ah, I misunderstood when you said "I don't like Gishes." My builds above are pure manifesters - you can get 20/20 at level 20 easily with Practiced Manifester, and powers all the way up to 9th-level. You're just a lot better in melee than you would be without Ranger/Slayer.


Ummmm... a thought has occured. With Psychic Reformation, could I change my discipline?

No, you cannot undo any class-based choices - only skills, feats and powers.


And as for the Body Adjustment, I was combining that with Empathic Transfew in bad situations where like, our Articficer was down, or needed help (healing can be problematic, what with the Artificer healing and our tank being a halfling soulknife).

With all respect intended, that is a massively inefficient way of healing. Empathic Transfer requires a standard action to transfer an average of 10HP worth of the target's wounds to yourself, followed by an entire round of adjusting your body to heal an average of 6 HP of the damage you just took. This will cost you 8PP each time. Contrast Vigor, which lets you give your ally 40 HP for the same cost using the Sangehirn's healing touch ability, and take no damage yourself.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-10, 04:23 PM
With all respect intended, that is a massively inefficient way of healing. Empathic Transfer requires a standard action to transfer an average of 10HP worth of the target's wounds to yourself, followed by an entire round of adjusting your body to heal an average of 6 HP of the damage you just took. This will cost you 8PP each time. Contrast Vigor, which lets you give your ally 40 HP for the same cost using the Sangehirn's healing touch ability, and take no damage yourself.

This. Being proactive about healing is better. If you already buffer those who are expected to take damage, you don't have to worry about wasting combat time on them. This lets you use your power for other stuff.

Flob
2010-07-10, 04:40 PM
Big quote:

Then you are better off as a Kineticist, Shaper or Telepath. Check the Egoist List (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powerList.htm#egoistPsychometabolismDisciplinePowe rs) - most of the powers are centered around getting your hands dirty, which means you are best off as a gish since you'll be that close. You should not rely exclusively on metamorphosis for this purpose, as it can be dispelled (as can Inertial Armor), and then where will you be?

The other three are at least designed to do their thing well back from the front line.

EDIT: Ah, I misunderstood when you said "I don't like Gishes." My builds above are pure manifesters - you can get 20/20 at level 20 easily with Practiced Manifester, and powers all the way up to 9th-level. You're just a lot better in melee than you would be without Ranger/Slayer.



No, you cannot undo any class-based choices - only skills, feats and powers.



With all respect intended, that is a massively inefficient way of healing. Empathic Transfer requires a standard action to transfer an average of 10HP worth of the target's wounds to yourself, followed by an entire round of adjusting your body to heal an average of 6 HP of the damage you just took. This will cost you 8PP each time. Contrast Vigor, which lets you give your ally 40 HP for the same cost using the Sangehirn's healing touch ability, and take no damage yourself.

Sorry, I don't know the optimization terminology yet. And that strategy was only used once actually, and it wound up with me dieing, so, not fun. I think I will ask my DM if I can Psychic Reformation-change my discipline. Any reasonable DM would let me do that... right?

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 04:48 PM
1) There is a list of terminology we use here in the stickied thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124685) at the top of the forum. ("Common acronyms, abbreviations and terms.")

2) Just so I'm clear - you don't want to be on the front lines, correct? If you don't mind it, I would stick with Egoist, especially since your DM is allowing Metamorphosis. (Many of them ban it.)

Flob
2010-07-10, 04:53 PM
1) There is a list of terminology we use here in the stickied thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124685) at the top of the forum. ("Common acronyms, abbreviations and terms.")

2) Just so I'm clear - you don't want to be on the front lines, correct? If you don't mind it, I would stick with Egoist, especially since your DM is allowing Metamorphosis. (Many of them ban it.)

1. Noted, I'll take a look at that in a minute.

2. I was our front-liner last campaign, with a (for the campaign) insanely overpowered fighter/sorcerer/dragon disciple (sorcerer used to get into DD). I like blasting, and I think we're getting to the level where our Artificer can handle most of the healing, and the rest from Belts of Healing that I'm trying to convince the party to get. As for the Metamorphosis, we've only been playing for a couple years, and I'm the first psion thats made it past like, 5th level.

Optimystik
2010-07-10, 04:57 PM
With Metamorphosis, you can do anything, including hang back from the front-line. Be a manticore and spray spikes everywhere (6 attacks), or be a pyro/cryohydra and blast your enemies with up to 12 breath weapons. Metamorphic Transfer grants you supernatural abilities of the forms you assume.

Having said that, if what you really want to do is be behind the front line, it's better to start with one of the three disciplines I mentioned. You can even pick up Metamorphosis later via Expanded Knowledge if you decide you really want it.

As for whether your DM will allow the switch, that depends on him. The rules are against you (Psyreform can't do that), but if you explain that you were confused by the discipline choices and made a mistake then perhaps he will be lenient. I don't know enough about him to make that kind of judgment.