quick question: Do orcs have LA?

[The Rabbler]

I know that this sounds dumb, but I always thought that they did. Recently, I looked through every book I own but wasn't able to find a single mentioning of LA on orcs. Was I mistaken for the past few years?

[Morty]

In a word: yes. They don't have LA.

[The Rabbler]

well, that clears things up. thanks.

[Scorpina]

Which only makes sense, since with their stats they'd need a negative LA to be balanced.

[awa]

be fair wizards thinks strength is worth more then other stats and if your playing an orc you were probaly planing on playing a barbarian with mild retardation anyway so the reduced mentals are a bargin compared with the boosted strength.

edit typo fixed

[Scorpina]

Though that mostly raises the question of why on Earth Wizards think Strength is worth more than the other stats.

[The Rabbler]

well, I was planning on making a dragonborn water orc ubercharger for a game and I ran into the possibility of orcs not having LA. I honestly couldn't believe it.

EDIT: strength was so valued because it applies to just about everything physical. let's remember: these are the people who thought that wizards should be blasters.

[Prime32]

See also water orcs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs), one of the most popular alternatives for those who feel normal orcs and half-orcs are too weak (often combined with dragonborn to get rid of the weird water-based abilities).

EDIT: I appear to have been ninja'd.

[Runestar]

Though that mostly raises the question of why on Earth Wizards think Strength is worth more than the other stats.

Probably because str has a direct impact on fighters (bonus on attack/damage rolls), while mental stat penalties may not really affect them at all (barbs don't really need good int or cha, while steadfast determination does away with the need for wis, so you can get away with just 6 wis!)

The assumption is likely that you will optimize your race/class combination. So in the case of a race such as half-orc or orc, you will pick a class which benefits from the str bonus but suffers least from the mental stat penalties.

You will also notice there are no LA+0 races which give a mental stat bonus outside of forgotten realms and spellscales. :smallwink:

As a bonus, wotc later released the dragonborn template, which removes light blindness from the orc! :smallbiggrin:

[jokey665]

See also water orcs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterOrcs), one of the most popular alternatives for those who feel normal orcs and half-orcs are too weak (often combined with dragonborn to get rid of the weird water-based abilities).

EDIT: I appear to have been ninja'd.

Actually I think it's more to get rid of the light sensitivity and for +2 more con.

[sofawall]

typo fixed

Wait, really?

I am a firm believer that Constitution is the most powerful stat, overall, and I strongly believe that WotC should have kept at least one pattern of the early races, specifically no mental stat boosts without an LA or a couple of RHD.

[Scorpina]

Probably because str has a direct impact on fighters (bonus on attack/damage rolls), while mental stat penalties may not really affect them at all (barbs don't really need good int or cha, while steadfast determination does away with the need for wis, so you can get away with just 6 wis!)

Possibly, but Wizards explicity state (in Savage Species, I believe) that Strength is inherently more valuable than any other ability score. Which is just crazy.

[awa]

look at the half orc vrs the dwarf
Con = cha (dwarf)
Str = int+cha (half orc)
Now i personaly belive wisdom and con are the best stats becuase they effect so many things that every one needs

[grarrrg]

...barbarian with mild retardation anyway...

orcz am not reterdeds, ams just haves poorly fundead skool systam

[BobVosh]

You will also notice there are no LA+0 races which give a mental stat bonus outside of forgotten realms and spellscales. :smallwink:

MM has Grey Elves, and probably a few others.


orcz am not reterdeds, ams just haves poorly fundead skool systam

Fun undead? Obviously with a touch attack to reduce int, wis, and cha...interesting.

[Mr.Moron]

Possibly, but Wizards explicity state (in Savage Species, I believe) that Strength is inherently more valuable than any other ability score. Which is just crazy.

STR affects the Melee Attack roll and damage, which is the most important, influential, and powerful mechanic in the game. That is to say the Melee attack roll sets the upper limits and everything else falls in line behind it.

At ;east that's what the thought process has always seemed like to me. Even that kind of thinking is a wee bit...

[Zaq]

Possibly, but Wizards explicity state (in Savage Species, I believe) that Strength is inherently more valuable than any other ability score. Which is just crazy.

I cannot recall the source for this, so I regret that I cannot give credit where credit is due, but I've heard a great comment on Savage Species that went something like this: "One of the many problems with Savage Species is that the people who wrote it didn't just think that the fighter was a good and powerful class. They thought that the fighter was the only class."

[Runestar]

The faq at the end of PHB addresses this in greater detail.


Why do half-orcs take a net penalty of –2 to their initial ability rolls?

You refer, I presume, to the half-orc’s racial ability adjustments of +2 Strength, –2 Intelligence, and –2 Charisma. (Add up all those numbers and you do indeed get a net –2.) The game’s designers decided that a +2 bonus to Strength scores more than outweighs the –2 penalty to Intelligence and Charisma, especially considering the half-orc’s 60-foot darkvision and favored class of barbarian. The numbers don’t always tell the whole story.

Now, let's see them justify all the bonuses a dwarf gets. :smallamused:

[Eldariel]

Now, let's see them justify all the bonuses a dwarf gets. :smallamused:

Or PHB Elves :smallannoyed: "How bad could -2 Con be, really?"

Or heck, Half-Elf. "Immunity to a 1st level spell and LLV are easily worth a feat and if we give it small random bonuses in random skills, that's like the Human's +1 skill per level, right?"

[hewhosaysfish]

Possibly, but Wizards explicity state (in Savage Species, I believe) that Strength is inherently more valuable than any other ability score. Which is just crazy.

There's a table of "Ability Score Equivalencies" in the 3.5 DMG, pg173.
Also, the text does openly discuss the half-orc.

[Tiki Snakes]

The thing with orcs is, yes, if you roll one you will pretty much be playing a retarded barbarian. Doesn't really matter if you intend to... :smallwink:

I personally think sometimes that, especially back in the day, but still now and then even in the current edition, they just don't want you to empathise with or find the monstrous races that cool.

But especially Orcs. They really do seem to get some of the most awesomely undermining attention. I always got the opinion that, given how close conceptually Hobgoblins are to Orcs, they really just need the Orcs to be as big a joke as they can so that people will forget they exist. Which is a shame.

Just a theory, of course.

And hey, less said about the Kobold's 3.5 ability score adjustments the better.

[Scorpina]

I cannot recall the source for this, so I regret that I cannot give credit where credit is due, but I've heard a great comment on Savage Species that went something like this: "One of the many problems with Savage Species is that the people who wrote it didn't just think that the fighter was a good and powerful class. They thought that the fighter was the only class."

That's very very true. The book has so few options for anyone who wants to do anything that isn't a variation on 'hit it until it dies'.


The faq at the end of PHB2 addresses this in greater detail.
Now, let's see them justify all the bonuses a dwarf gets. :smallamused:

Yeah, this is just dumb. +2 Strength is totally not a balancing factor for -2 Intellegence and Charisma, especially if you're playing any class that isn't a Fighter or a Barbarian (and even they need Intellegence, since they have 2+ Int Mod skill points per level.)

And how, exactly, is having Barbarian as a favoured class such a huge advantage?

Sometimes it's like Wizards just don't understand their own system.


I personally think sometimes that, especially back in the day, but still now and then even in the current edition, they just don't want you to empathise with or find the monstrous races that cool.

That's definately true. Half-Orcs as a core race smack definately of 'well, if you really must play something monstrous... but not too oricsh (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButNotTooBlack)!'


But especially Orcs. They really do seem to get some of the most awesomely undermining attention. I always got the opinion that, given how close conceptually Hobgoblins are to Orcs, they really just need the Orcs to be as big a joke as they can so that people will forget they exist. Which is a shame.

Just a theory, of course.

I think one would be entirely justified in using hobgob stats for orcs, if you wanted them to suck less.


And hey, less said about the Kobold's 3.5 ability score adjustments the better.

Or the Goblin's, for that matter.

[senrath]

Yeah, well, at least Kobolds get all sorts of nice options to make up for their rather lackluster score modifiers. Assuming you're using the supplements that those come into play, that is.

[Tiki Snakes]

Or the Goblin's, for that matter.

Hey, speaking as someone who once tried to build a melee capable Kobold in 3.5, I'd take the Goblins net -2 to stats any day, over the Kobold's net -4.

Hell, if you hold by the 'strength is twice as important' thing, then WOW.

Goblins are practically power-gaming in comparison.

[Mr.Moron]

That's very very true. The book has so few options for anyone who wants to do anything that isn't a variation on 'hit it until it dies'.



Yeah, this is just dumb. +2 Strength is totally not a balancing factor for -2 Intellegence and Charisma, especially if you're playing any class that isn't a Fighter or a Barbarian (and even they need Intellegence, since they have 2+ Int Mod skill points per level.)

And how, exactly, is having Barbarian as a favoured class such a huge advantage?

Sometimes it's like Wizards just don't understand their own system.


It's not like they don't, they don't or didn't since we're talking about 3.5. As a whole the books vastly overvalue melee boosts. STR is "Balanced" because +1 hit and damage is just that that "Good" in the eyes of the system/designers.\

Barbarian is an advantage because it's a Melee/STR centric classes which are the "Strongest" kind of classes.

[Yuki Akuma]

Luckily, while they kept that idea for 4e, they actually made it so that +1 to hit and damage is pretty good.

[Aquillion]

To be fair, they do usually seem to value Int boosts even above strength boosts -- very few races get them.

[Pîke]

To be fair, they do usually seem to value Int boosts even above strength boosts -- very few races get them.

Outside of Savage Species, Wis bonuses are even more rare (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19546874/Master_Player_Race_List_Version_20?num=10). Now try statting out an Arcane Hierophant (needs Int, Wis, and Con, the former two frequently paired with a hit to the latter)... might as well go Anthropomorphic Bat and wild shape into something less weird.