Optimizing Archivist Dark Knowledge:

[Os1ris09]

Like the thread title says, can anyone help me make the best knowledge Character without the cheese. I am thinking of going with the following line:

Illumian with Krau and Naun sigils (the ones that Add INT and CL)

Archivist 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Archivist XX (unless there are prestige classes that help me advance my ability to succeed on knowledge checks)

Feats:
Flaw- Archivist of Nature
Flaw- Draconic Archivist
1: Able Learner
Domain trade: Knowledge Devotion
Rest can be anything that can help

If anyone can find a better buffer with the knowledge skills please point it out because this is the best I can come up with.

[Dusk Eclipse]

IIRC there is a magic item that grants you a bonus on knowledge checks 3/day or something like that.

Masterwork knowledge item (AKA enyclopedia) for a quick legal +2

Collector if stories skill trick? (complete Scoundrel)

[Mr.Moron]

Honestly between ranks, a high INT score and Lore of the Gods you don't really need to do all that much with the knowledge bonuses. The Dark Knowledge DCs are really easy to hit without much CharOP.

[Keld Denar]

Krau sigil Illumian is decent, but I think you'd be better off with Gnome. They have a racial feat that allows them to roll twice on every Knowledge check, taking the better roll. Forgot the name, but thats definitely a great boost.

[Ernir]

Krau sigil Illumian is decent, but I think you'd be better off with Gnome. They have a racial feat that allows them to roll twice on every Knowledge check, taking the better roll. Forgot the name, but thats definitely a great boost.

Trivial Knowledge, Races of Stone.

[Os1ris09]

Ok so what type of Gnome?

So far my build looks like this:

Illumian Krau and Naun sigils

Archivist 1/C-Cleric 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Archivist XX

Feats:
Flaw-Archivist of Nature
Flaw- Draconic Archivist
1- Able Learner
Domain- Knowledge Devotion
3- Enhanced Sigil Power (AFB so I don't know if it has to be at 1st level or not)

Any feat suggestions and the like would be appreciated as well.

[Optimystik]

Since you only have one level of Cloistered Cleric, their Lore ability is going to be weak. I would thus add Paragnostic Apostle to the build, which will also give you a use besides the Dark Knowledge ability for all of your absurdly large Knowledge checks. Furthermore, being only 5 levels long you will have enough room in the build to take full PA levels and still grab Dread Secret at Archivist 11.

[Os1ris09]

What would you suggest for the knowledge is power class abilities?

[Keld Denar]

Ohhhh, Dread Secret is the really good one. Stunning people as a move action is something that pretty much no other ability in the game can replicate. Thats ALWAYS a good time!

[Optimystik]

What would you suggest for the knowledge is power class abilities?

The best ones for Archivists are:

Call of Worlds: Very nice boost for all your summons. Fast Healing 7? I'll take two and a side of fries.
Penetrating Insight: You dispel magic and break through SR more easily.
Manifest Ethos: This one is stunningly good - like the Consecrate Spell metamagic in BoED, only with no adjustment to spell level, and works on all four alignments instead of just Evil (depending, of course, on your own alignment.) Works best if you're good-aligned, as most fiends, undead, aberrations and mean dragons tend to have an evil-alignment.
Spatial Awareness: Teleport more accurately, and your speed-boosting spells get more powerful.

The others don't really leap out at me:
- Accurate Retort/Energy Supremacy are better for blasters, and pretty blah even then.
- Mind over Body and Mortal Coil are good if you shapeshift/self-buff a lot and worry about them being dispelled, but not spectacular otherwise.
- See Through the Veil sucks (who actually turns undead anymore?) as does Noble Presence (only boosts compulsions that don't actually... compel.)
- Mind over Matter is nice... I'd probably go with that as the 5th one, especially since you can get some decent AC/wall spells from domains.
- Discern Weakness is only worth it in campaigns dominated by one creature type.
- Divine Understanding can be nice if you find yourself casting spells that fit in a particular domain often.

[Os1ris09]

Ok so the build I am looking at then is the following:

Gnome (can use suggestions on what kind of gnome please)

or Illumian Krau Naun sigils

Archivist 1/Cloistered Cleric 1/Dragonfire Adept 1/Archivist 2/Pragnastic Apostle 5/Archivist 10

Feats:
Flaw-Archivist of Nature
Flaw-Draconic Archivist
1-Able Learner (or Trivial Knowledge if gnome)
Domain-Knowledge Devotion
rest of feats are open to campaign dependant things

P.A. 1- Call of Worlds
P.A. 2- Spatial Awareness
P.A. 3- Call of Worlds
P.A. 4- Manifesting Ethos
P.A. 5- Penetrating Insight

[Optimystik]

You can't take Call of Worlds more than once (though you don't have to - it auto-scales.) You can only do that with KniPs that specifically say you can take them multiple times, like Discern Weakness.

I'd probably go with Mortal Coil as your 5th, or Mind over Matter.

[FMArthur]

Some small bonuses:

Absent-Minded (Trait, UA87): +1 knowledge checks, -1 Spot/Listen
Collector of Stories (Skill Trick, CS85, knowledge (any) 5 ranks): +5 competence bonus on a knowledge check related to identifying creature (1/encounter)
Master of Knowledge (Feat, HoH123): +1 to all Knowledge skills.

[woodenbandman]

I fail to see how this is good... You're delaying your spell progression AND your dark knowledge progression in an attempt to... be better at dark knowledge? Just do archivist 20.

[Optimystik]

I fail to see how this is good... You're delaying your spell progression AND your dark knowledge progression in an attempt to... be better at dark knowledge? Just do archivist 20.

Cloistered Cleric 1 is for turn undead, two domains (i.e. two bonus feats) and Knowledge Devotion. That's a pretty strong benefit for a 1-level dip, especially since he can use the turn attempts he gets this way AND the extra turning he'll get if he chooses Undeath to fuel DMM on his Archivist spells. Further, starting as a Cloistered Cleric gets him a boat-load of skill points since he's Int-based.

DFA is for Draconic Knowledge - +6 untyped to spellcraft and all knowledge checks, all day every day. Again, this is worth a feat in itself, and is a blast for his build. He can wait until after he gets Dread Secret to take this one though.

I always considered "thou shalt not lose caster levels" to be a tad on the melodramatic side. After all, they printed Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester precisely so that we could afford to lose caster levels - why not use them?

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I always considered "thou shalt not lose caster levels" to be a tad on the melodramatic side. After all, they printed Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester precisely so that we could afford to lose caster levels - why not use them?

To be fair, even with those feats, you're losing effective spell levels. So, with his current set-up using both Cloistered Cleric and DFA, he's casting as an Archivist of his level -2, which is a pain.

I'd say drop the level of DFA, as it only gives you a boost to Knowledges. You'll want INT out the wazoo anyhow, so you'll have no problem hitting the Dark Knowledge DCs except at maybe the early levels.

I do support the Cloistered Cleric level, though. Domain feats are pretty awesome and getting another one can help out a lot. That and turning.


Other ideas: go Illumian, but grab whatever combo it is that allows you to base your bonus spells off of Dex or Str. You've got more than enough spells available to you that you can persist to boost either one to the high heavens. I know Spell Compendium has a low level spell that boosts Dex by 10, untyped. With this, you could then dump Wis. If you're starting at at least 3rd level, I say you also dump Con and go Necroplitan.

[MountainKing]

Cloistered Cleric 1 is for turn undead, two domains (i.e. two bonus feats) and Knowledge Devotion. That's a pretty strong benefit for a 1-level dip, especially since he can use the turn attempts he gets this way AND the extra turning he'll get if he chooses Undeath to fuel DMM on his Archivist spells. Further, starting as a Cloistered Cleric gets him a boat-load of skill points since he's Int-based.

DFA is for Draconic Knowledge - +6 untyped to spellcraft and all knowledge checks, all day every day. Again, this is worth a feat in itself, and is a blast for his build. He can wait until after he gets Dread Secret to take this one though.

I always considered "thou shalt not lose caster levels" to be a tad on the melodramatic side. After all, they printed Practiced Spellcaster/Manifester precisely so that we could afford to lose caster levels - why not use them?

Wait, do domains just... tack on to whatever divine spellcasting you so choose? If not, then what's the point? He'll still just be a 1st level cleric. :smallconfused:

[lsfreak]

Wait, do domains just... tack on to whatever divine spellcasting you so choose? If not, then what's the point? He'll still just be a 1st level cleric. :smallconfused:

You drop the domains for Devotion feats (see Complete Champion). Or pick up domains that have exceptional domain granted powers, like Inquisition. You don't care at all about the actual spells the domains offer.

[Pîke]

I second dropping DFA; you just don't need it. The highest DC you need to hit is 35, and by mid-levels you're halfway there in ranks alone (say +13 at level 10). You should have a high int (+5 by mid-levels, at least), another +1 from Master of KnowledgeHoH, and the +2 from Knowledge is Power to any check you really care about. That's 21 right there. Add lore of the gods for +10 (you are worshiping Boccob, right?) and that Gnome reroll feat and you're very likely to make that check. And what are the consequences if your bad luck gives you a 32? +2 instead of +3. It's not a really big deal, and the marginal benefits aren't worth optimizing past this.

As for picking skills for Knowledge is Power, it's largely campaign dependent. I played an Archivist with a DM who liked magical beasts and asking for knowledge checks a lot, so I got a lot of bang out of Knowledge (arcana), meaning the +34 I had with lore of the gods came in quite handy. Obviously religion is going to be useful in an undead-heavy campaign, dungeoneering useful for spelunking, and local useful if you commonly fight NPCs.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Arcana is generally always a good choice, due to the wide range of options. After that, I generally go The Planes/Religion and Nature. Most guides on archivists or any that mention Knowledge Devotion should have a solid list for you.

[Os1ris09]

To be fair, even with those feats, you're losing effective spell levels. So, with his current set-up using both Cloistered Cleric and DFA, he's casting as an Archivist of his level -2, which is a pain.

I'd say drop the level of DFA, as it only gives you a boost to Knowledges. You'll want INT out the wazoo anyhow, so you'll have no problem hitting the Dark Knowledge DCs except at maybe the early levels.

I do support the Cloistered Cleric level, though. Domain feats are pretty awesome and getting another one can help out a lot. That and turning.


Other ideas: go Illumian, but grab whatever combo it is that allows you to base your bonus spells off of Dex or Str. You've got more than enough spells available to you that you can persist to boost either one to the high heavens. I know Spell Compendium has a low level spell that boosts Dex by 10, untyped. With this, you could then dump Wis. If you're starting at at least 3rd level, I say you also dump Con and go Necroplitan.

Could you please elaborate on the dumbing of CON and WIS? I understand your reasoning for dropping DFA but I can't afford to lose the +6 untyped bonus since I might be able to spend skill points elsewhere because of it when I get to a point where a 1 on a roll equals a 35+ on a knowledge check.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Could you please elaborate on the dumbing of CON and WIS? I understand your reasoning for dropping DFA but I can't afford to lose the +6 untyped bonus since I might be able to spend skill points elsewhere because of it when I get to a point where a 1 on a roll equals a 35+ on a knowledge check.

So, with Illumian shenanigans, you gain bonus spells off of something else other than Wisdom. Wisdom only gains you bonus slots, so if you aren't gaining bonus slots from it, you don't need it at all. You dump CON by being undead with Necropolitan.

[Os1ris09]

Add lore of the gods for +10 (you are worshiping Boccob, right?) and that Gnome reroll feat and you're very likely to make that check.

Where is the lore of the gods feat? is it setting specific? if so is it in Forgotten realms or greyhawk?


So, with Illumian shenanigans, you gain bonus spells off of something else other than Wisdom. Wisdom only gains you bonus slots, so if you aren't gaining bonus slots from it, you don't need it at all. You dump CON by being undead with Necropolitan.

I will have to look again but the sigils I am going with help the INT based checks AND raise my CL as well. I am not really caring about Cleric Spells since I will be trading the Domains for feats anyway unless I can get ones with good powers. The spells on the cloistered cleric level are negilable and the Turning is only there to help provide some extra stuff on my domain feats since I have been told just recently I can't use DMM persist. :smallfrown:

[Optimystik]

Wait, do domains just... tack on to whatever divine spellcasting you so choose? If not, then what's the point? He'll still just be a 1st level cleric. :smallconfused:

The right granted abilities are not level-dependent. This is why Cleric is such a great dip, and Cloistered Cleric even moreso.

Planning = Free Extend Spell. Has nothing to do with his Cleric levels.

Undeath = Free Extra Turning. Has nothing to do with his Cleric levels.

Knowledge = All Knowledge skills as class skills; whoops, he gets that already as an Archivist, so he might as well toss it and pick up Knowledge Devotion.

It's all a matter of which domains you pick.


I will have to look again but the sigils I am going with help the INT based checks AND raise my CL as well. I am not really caring about Cleric Spells since I will be trading the Domains for feats anyway unless I can get ones with good powers. The spells on the cloistered cleric level are negilable and the Turning is only there to help provide some extra stuff on my domain feats since I have been told just recently I can't use DMM persist. :smallfrown:

Does that mean you can't use DMM at all? Because there are others besides DMM Persist (e.g. DMM Quicken), and more uses for turn attempts besides DMM.

Also, your best choices for Illumian are NaenKrau (Bonus to Int checks as you said, the word boosts your DCs at a certain spell level if you leave a slot of that level unfilled) and UurKrau (Bonus to Dex checks - this includes Initiative - and shifts your bonus spells to Dex instead of Wis, letting you dump it.)

[Os1ris09]

Does that mean you can't use DMM at all? Because there are others besides DMM Persist (e.g. DMM Quicken), and more uses for turn attempts besides DMM.

Also, your best choices for Illumian are NaenKrau (Bonus to Int checks as you said, the word boosts your DCs at a certain spell level if you leave a slot of that level unfilled) and UurKrau (Bonus to Dex checks - this includes Initiative - and shifts your bonus spells to Dex instead of Wis, letting you dump it.)

As far as I know and understand DMM is out completely. Also is there a sigil that makes bonus spells based of INT? Because I don't know why I would need WIS anyway. The only thing it would govern is Cloistered Cleric casting and I won't be doing that anyway alot.

[WinWin]

Masterwork tools.

Ask your DM if books/library count as acceptable masterwork tools or skill items. Obviously it would be more of a downtime thing, but you could get a compentancy bonus for reasearching between adventures, then referring to your notebooks while on an adventure.

I can picture an Archivist carrying around an encyclopedia set.

[Aotrs Commander]

Related query (as I'm planning an archivst in the moderate future): would the damage bonus of Knowledge Devotion apply to ray spells (I'm planning on sort of going for Archervist with Splinterbolt and Scorching Ray, for no other reason that I think it's cool...). I says "damage rolls" not "weapon damage rolls", so I'd assume yes?

[Optimystik]

As far as I know and understand DMM is out completely. Also is there a sigil that makes bonus spells based of INT? Because I don't know why I would need WIS anyway. The only thing it would govern is Cloistered Cleric casting and I won't be doing that anyway alot.

No, there isn't - the whole schtick behind Illumians is to make you better at multiclassing/gishing/theurging, thus they allow you to partially tie magic to two of your physical ability scores (Bonus spells to Str or Dex.) The Int and Magic sigils combined benefit your theurgy, as the DC-raising ability you gain by leaving slots empty does not care whether the same casting class that provides the empty slots is the one that gets the DC boost.

In any case, you are correct - you don't need Wis at all, which is all the more reason for you to swap your bonus spells to Dex and pump an attribute that does so much more for you. Not only is Will a good save for Archivists, they also get Still Mind fairly early on, which obviates the need for a stellar Wis score.


Related query (as I'm planning an archivst in the moderate future): would the damage bonus of Knowledge Devotion apply to ray spells (I'm planning on sort of going for Archervist with Splinterbolt and Scorching Ray, for no other reason that I think it's cool...). I says "damage rolls" not "weapon damage rolls", so I'd assume yes?

Even if it did say the latter, a ray is a weapon. See weapon-like spells in CArc. So to answer your question - yes, Knowledge Devotion can boost rays, just as it can boost anything else with an attack roll.

[Os1ris09]

No, there isn't - the whole schtick behind Illumians is to make you better at multiclassing/gishing/theurging, thus they allow you to partially tie magic to two of your physical ability scores (Bonus spells to Str or Dex.) The Int and Magic sigils combined benefit your theurgy, as the DC-raising ability you gain by leaving slots empty does not care whether the same casting class that provides the empty slots is the one that gets the DC boost.

In any case, you are correct - you don't need Wis at all, which is all the more reason for you to swap your bonus spells to Dex and pump an attribute that does so much more for you. Not only is Will a good save for Archivists, they also get Still Mind fairly early on, which obviates the need for a stellar Wis score.

So let me see if I get this right here for the part in bold. IF I use the cleric side and not prepare 2 spells of 1st level the only spell level getting a DC boost would be my Archivist 1st level spells... how is that helpful what so ever when most of the spells that need the boost are of higher level. :smallconfused:

After re-reading all the sigils it seems the best one is possibly Kraunaen. For the INT bonus to skill checks and the +CL for Archivist to keep CL 20. I will lose out on the gnome feat to roll twice for knowledge checks AND the bonus to initiative checks BUT I can always pick up Improved Initiative since I can't DMM anything.

[Optimystik]

So let me see if I get this right here for the part in bold. IF I use the cleric side and not prepare 2 spells of 1st level the only spell level getting a DC boost would be my Archivist 1st level spells... how is that helpful what so ever when most of the spells that need the boost are of higher level. :smallconfused:

Uh, it's not. My point was that Illumians are designed around multi-classing/theurging/gishing, and not so much single class builds like yours. It flat-out says so on page 54 of RoD.

That's why we've been advising you to be Uurkrau, because Dex is already a more useful stat for Archivists than Wis.

[Os1ris09]

Uh, it's not. My point was that Illumians are designed around multi-classing/theurging/gishing, and not so much single class builds like yours. It flat-out says so on page 54 of RoD.

That's why we've been advising you to be Uurkrau, because Dex is already a more useful stat for Archivists than Wis.

Ok. I think we are not on the same page here, sorry if I offended you though.

All I was saying is what benefit would the DC boosting effect be to me in anyway. To me it seems the INT boost to knowledge skills is better suited to me then boosting the save DC of 1st level spells. It also can be that I am mis-reading your point of view so if I am please "repoint" it out again so that I may be enlightened because I fail to see it. Sorry 4 hours of sleep doesn't help much either.

However I can see why UurKrau is better so as to make the character less MAD.

[Optimystik]

It's fine, I probably misread your tone due to it being a text medium.

As I said before, it's not going to help you very much at all. But since you are taking both naen and krau, you are going to get it - whether you can put it to any use or not. You're taking naen for the bonus to Int checks and krau for the bonus to CL - you are now a naenkrau Illumian, and that is the ability they get.

I was just bringing it to your attention. And repeating my answer to your previous question - no, Illumians do not have a way of changing bonus spells to be based off Int, at least not one that I know of.

[Os1ris09]

So which would you prefer if this were your character to be played?

[Optimystik]

If it were me, I would go with the Whisper Gnome suggested earlier. Illumians do make great Archivists, but since your build is so focused on optimizing the knowledge check portion of their repertoire, the ability to reroll them is worth far more than a simple +1 to the check and CL boost. (Especially when said CL boost can be replicated with Practiced Spellcaster.)

Illumian is a better choice if your DM enforces multiclass penalties, however.

[Os1ris09]

Ok so I am trying to find whisper gnome. Does anyone know which book its in?

Also two more questions:

A)
Add lore of the gods for +10 (you are worshiping Boccob, right?) and that Gnome reroll feat and you're very likely to make that check.
Where is the lore of the gods feat? is it setting specific? if so is it in Forgotten realms or greyhawk?

B) can anyone refer me to a good Archivist guide?

[Optimystik]

Ok so I am trying to find whisper gnome. Does anyone know which book its in?

Races of Stone


Also two more questions:

A)
Where is the lore of the gods feat? is it setting specific? if so is it in Forgotten realms or greyhawk?

It's a spell, actually - Complete Champion.
+5 insight to all knowledge checks, +10 instead if you worship a deity with the Knowledge domain.


B) can anyone refer me to a good Archivist guide?

Sure thing (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=3545.0)