Saving throws 4E

[FullofQuestions]

I am having a discussion with someone about the saving throws, and we have hit a point where we are confused about why we think they did it the way they did. A saving throw is just a roll of a 20 sided die. 1-10 fails; 11-20 succeeds. Why would they make it so a lvl 1 character could succeed just as easily as an epic character on saving throws with the exception of a couple feats and powers that provide mods?

[senrath]

Unless I'm mistaken, it's actually 1-9 fails, 10-20 succeeds. And no, I don't know why they did it.

[Blackfang108]

I am having a discussion with someone about the saving throws, and we have hit a point where we are confused about why we think they did it the way they did. A saving throw is just a roll of a 20 sided die. 1-10 fails; 11-20 succeeds. Why would they make it so a lvl 1 character could succeed just as easily as an epic character on saving throws with the exception of a couple feats and powers that provide mods?

Actually, unless you are using a house rule, it's 10-20 succeeds, 1-9 fails.

and saving throws are used differently in 4e than in 3.5. Saving throws are used to measure duration, not as a defense.

[Fenrazer]

Actually, unless you are using a house rule, it's 10-20 succeeds, 1-9 fails.

and saving throws are used differently in 4e than in 3.5. Saving throws are used to measure duration, not as a defense.

I am the player he is having a discussion with, and the scenario was this: My Lock was missed, and I used addergrease armors daily power (ongoing 5 poison) and before the turn in which it activated ended it was already saved against. I think that its far to easy to save in this game, unless we are reading this wrong.

Technically a level one nobody could as easily save from an epic power as an epic character could from a level one nobody spell. I feel there MUST be more to it than this.

[senrath]

There are certain feats and powers that give bonuses or penalties to saving throws. For instance, I think there's at least one monster that gives a -5 to saving throws, meaning you need a 15 or higher to succeed.

[NecroRebel]

Agreed with Blackfang; saving throws are very different in 4E than they were in earlier editions. The closest equivalent to a 3.x saving throw is the non-armor defenses, that is, Reflex, Fortitude, and Will.

As to why the new rule is the way it is, it's probably due to how the durations are really measured now. Effects that don't cover the whole encounter last, almost exclusively, until the end of the user's current turn, until the end of the user's next turn, or until the target saves against it. Effects that end at the end of the current turn last about 1/2 round, those that end at the user's next turn last about 1 round, and, since creatures have a slightly-better-than-even chance of saving each round, 2 rounds.

In other words, a (save ends) power is roughly twice as powerful and as a power that ends at the end of the user's next turn. Since the vast majority of those powers are dailies, it makes a nice Miss effect; you get half damage, and half-duration conditions applied, compared to hits on many daily powers. If the saving throw number was different, this wouldn't quite be the case, so that's why it's where it is.

Edit:
Technically a level one nobody could as easily save from an epic power as an epic character could from a level one nobody spell. I feel there MUST be more to it than this.

There is more to it. There's the to-hit rolls. A level one will essentially never hit an epic character, and an epic character will essentially never miss a level one character. So, while the non-damage effects last just as long no matter which is hit, the higher-level character won't be affected as often as the lower.

You must understand, the design philosophy for 4E is very, very gamist in nature. It doesn't do as well at explaining the mechanics in "realistic" fashions as the prior editions might have (though, honestly, there wasn't any particular reason for the old saving throw mechanics either). That's the price it pays for unified, relatively simple mechanics and class balance.

[Tiki Snakes]

I am the player he is having a discussion with, and the scenario was this: My Lock was missed, and I used addergrease armors daily power (ongoing 5 poison) and before the turn in which it activated ended it was already saved against. I think that its far to easy to save in this game, unless we are reading this wrong.

Technically a level one nobody could as easily save from an epic power as an epic character could from a level one nobody spell. I feel there MUST be more to it than this.

Basically, it's just not a very good armour power. The shift is almost the better part of it. Another way to think of it, it would possibly be more useful if you used the power when they missed with an opportunity attack, rather than during their own turn.

And if you're facing hobgoblins, pretty much don't bother. :smallsmile:

Note - Other than this one lackluster armour, almost all ongoing damage is delt out during YOUR turn, and therefor hits at least once, (not counting hobgoblins, of course).

[mucat]

Why would they make it so a lvl 1 character could succeed just as easily as an epic character on saving throws with the exception of a couple feats and powers that provide mods?


Technically a level one nobody could as easily save from an epic power as an epic character could from a level one nobody spell. I feel there MUST be more to it than this.

This really isn't such a major change from earlier editions. Duration of a spell or other effect rarely depends of the victim's level in any edition, and saving throws in 4e are just a way of determining duration.

As others have said, the role of 3.x ed Saving Throws is filled in 4e by non-AC Defenses...and these DO depend strongly on the target's level, as always.

The real confusion here stems from the fact that WotC decided to keep using the term "Saving Throws" for something totally unrelated to what the term meant in earlier editions. They should have just called it a duration throw.

[Fuzzie Fuzz]

What everyone else said. Also, the odds of a character ever needing to fight a character or monster of a significantly different level is not terribly high, and when they do, status effects are unlikely to come into play very often in such a situation.

[Swordgleam]

It just takes out all the extra stupid math.

Because if it changed by level, it would be something like +1/2 level to saving throws, and then you would get various powers and feats that would make it so enemies take penalties to saving throws and it'd add up to roughly the same amount.

This keeps you from saying, "Remember, that guy gets -12 to save" and the DM writing it down and seeing a line on the monster that says, "+12 to saving throws" and then the same happening in reverse when you get hit with something.

As for fighting things of vastly different level, what everyone else said.

[Thajocoth]

They don't.

A Human takes a feat for +1 to saves... Can take another for an added bonus to that in certain situations...

A level 17 ring gives +1 to saves. A level 30 ring gives +3.

Some PPs give a save bonus. Lumniescent Swarm, for example, gives the player's allies +2.

10 or better saves, from ongoing damage, status effects, death and being moved into hazardous terrain (spikes, pits, ect...) These save bonuses get accumulated over time through different means, and by early epic tier, you're saving an average of 75% of the time instead of 55%. By the end of epic, you're saving an average of 90% of the time, with a few situations in which you automatically save.

You DO get better save bonuses. It just doesn't technically come from your level itself.