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true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:11 PM
THE SUEL ARCANAMACH HANDBOOK
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dnd_prc_20070829.jpg

Presented in the Complete Arcane Sourcebook (page 63), the Suel Arcanamach class also had a Prestige Class article about them here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070829). Be careful about these article as it mostly contains bad advice, though. The class has some odd requirements, interesting abilities and limited but fast paced spellcasting (5th level spells in 10 levels), with 3/4 BAB, d8 Hit Die and 4 skill points from a good list. A Suel Arcanamach is basically a gish-light with some skills.
I'm using a color-coded system here; very good, good, average and bad.

What You Need
Like said earlier, the class has some odd requirements. For the full list:
- BAB +6
- Skills: Concentration 4, Jump 4, Spellcraft 5, Tumble 4
- Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will
- Language: Ancient Suloise
- Must be proficient with at least 4 martial weapons
- Must read the Grimoire Arcanamacha or study with a willing structor. This one might be kinda hard to pull, as it depends entirely on your DM, but we'll look for ways to make it easier.
The weirdest thing here is 'must be proficient with at least 4 martial weapons'. This mostly comes up if you want a single-class Spellthief into Arcanamach, otherwise if you have at least a single full-bab class level you will have proficiency in martial weapons.

What You Need II - Stat Priority
Let's take a look at how a Suel Arcanamach should build his stats. Stats are not rated as they largely depend on race and classes.
Strength: Since Suel Arcanamach is a melee class, having high strenght never hurts. You could dump it for finesse builds, specially if you are tight on ability points. A 13 qualifies you for Power Attack, but if you can you really should go for a higher score.
Dexterity: I think people usually underestimate the importance of Dexterity. This stat boosts so many things - ranged attack rolls, Armor Class, Reflex save, initiative, lots of skills. If you are a finesse warrior or if you want to focus on skills, you need as high Dex as possible. In any other case, you don't want a low Dex anyway. If you can't focus that much on Dex, at least have as many as possible to get the most out of your armor.
Constitution: Hit Points and Concentration. Hit Points are very importante for melee characters - heck, they are important to everyone. You need at the very least a 14 here. More never hurts. Important for all Suel builds.
Intelligence: It's importante for skill points, if you want to focus on that (as I would). Even more important for Arcanamachs with levels in Duskblade, Swashbuckler or Warblade. That said, you probably can't afford a very high score here. 12 is already enough for humans, maybe 13 for feat requirements. 14 is the most I'd go for, except in a Swashbuckler build.
Wisdom: Not a very important ability. You need it for skills and Will save. Your Will save is going to be good anyway, so I'd dump Wisdom altogether. Could be a prerequisite for some feats, so be careful.
Charisma: You need at least 11 to cast Suel Arcanamach spells at all, 15 to cast all spells and 20 to gain bonus spells for all levels. It determines the DC for your spells but you will probably be using more buffs than anything else. A 20 seems like a good score for me; more could give you some bonus spells, though. It also helps with skills. Important for all Suel builds. If you are making one of those pesky Cha-synergy builds, go freaking crazy here.

What You Need III - Finding & Reading the Grimoire Arcanamacha
Working on it.

What You Get
OK, so now you qualified for the Suel Arcanamach prestige class. What does the class grant you, after all?
Skills: 4 skill points per level of an extensive skill list.
Base Attack Bonus: 3/4 BAB is not that bad, but it's not full BAB. You're probably gaining a lot more "to hit" bonuses from spells than from BAB, but this delays your iterative attacks.
Hit Dice: A d8 Hit Dice is not awesome, but not terrible really. Since you probably have high Con, it won't hurt you a all.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: You don't gain anything here. You probably don't need it anyway, but...
Spells: Cha-based fast-paced spell progression with a regular amount of slots from a great list - the Sorcerer/Wizard list. You are limited to the schools of abjuration, divination, illusion and transmutation, but most gish spells are from those schools anyway. Also, there are ways to increase your spell list (more on this in the prestige classes entry). You cast as a sorcerer and have a small amount of spells known, so pick your spells carefully. This is your most powerful class ability by far.
Ignore Spell Failure Chance: This is always nice, since you need to wear armor to improve your Armor Class and you will be in the frontlines most of the time. If you get Abjurant Champion levels (and you should) this is less useful. It could save your life at lower levels though, specially if coupled with Spellsword, but it's not worthy to stay in Suel Arcanamach for this.
Tenacious Spells: This is really good, specially if you are a illumian with aeshkrau and Abjurant Champion levels. Your spells are really hard to dispel, making your buffs a lot more reliable.
Dispelling Strike: OK, so your buffs are extremely hard to dispel... but your opponent's buffs aren't! Unfortunatelly it's keyed to class level instead of caster level which makes it fade in utility in later levels. It's not worthy to stay in Suel Arcanamach just to get more castings of this per day. If you get your DM to key it to your character level or caster level, though, it's GOLDEN.
Extended Spellstrenght: A really nice ability. Notice your spells are NOT affected by the Extend Spell feat, they have their duration doubled as if affected. That means you can still apply Extend Spell to them! Better yet, you apply Abjurant Champion's Extended Abjuration to them. Heck, since Abjurant Champion's ability is also "as if" you can combine BOTH with Extend Spell. That's some awesome potential for durations - you could make a casting of Shield last for a whole hour! There has been some debate about how these abilities stack if at all, so check if your DM. I think they stack and I would allow them in a game I DM, as it's not gamebreaking or anything.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:14 PM
Since Suel Arcanamach requires +6 base attack bonus, we'll be talking mostly about full base attack classes. There are basically two exceptions worth of mention - Monk and Spellthief. We'll get to them eventually.

Barbarian: Rage is nice, but you can't cast spells while raging. d12 hit dice, 4 skill points per level, Jump and perhaps Tumble (with the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)) as class skills, uncanny dodge and +10ft movement are all nice, but the main ability of the Barbarian is his rage - and his rage does not fit well with spellcasting at all... unless you are a Rage Mage (Complete Warrior), that is (thanks Surreal for pointing that out). With the substitution level from Complete Champion, a Lion Totem Barbarian gains Pounce at level one, making him a reliable charger. I personally would choose Warblade or Swashbuckler over Barbarian, but for more Cha-focused builds Barbarian/Hexblade is a very good entry.

Battle Dancer (Dragon Compendium): Full BAB, d8 Hit Dice, 4 skill points/level with Jump and Tumble as class skills. Gains unarmed strike as the monk, Cha to AC, bonuses to speed and various dances - you only get most of these after 6th level and you won't be getting so many levels in this class. 4 levels are really nice - CHA to AC, unarmed strike, bonus speed and a party buff vs fear at will. You could however just take Battle Dancer 1/Paladin 2/Hexblade 3 and get CHA to AC, Cha to saves and Cha to saves vs spells. A good class, if a bit unbalanced. If your DM allows Dragon material, it's hard to go wrong with a 1 level dip.

Crusader (Tome of Battle - the Book of Nine Swords): d10 Hit Dice, Indomitable Soul for that Cha synergy, nice maneuvers and stances, you never run out of maneuvers, 4 skill points per level (including Concentration, Jump and Tumble if you drop Ride). Good for Hexblades but otherwise Warblade is arguably better. I'm giving it an average rating as I don't think it's better than Paladin for Hexblade, even with the extra skill points, but don't get me wrong, this is one strong class that makes great arcanamachs.

Duskblade (Player's Handbook II): Concentration, Jump and Spellcraft as class skills (also Tumble if you drop Ride), casting in armor that fits well with Suel Arcanamach's spell failure reduction, a high amount of spell slots (great with the Versatile Spellcaster feat), Combat Casting as a bonus feat and Arcane Channeling. Wow. The only "if" is that Duskblade casting is Int based but even that is a very minor "if" since you probably have at most 2nd level Duskblade spells needing only Int 12. Int is a very nice stat overall, granting skill points and such, and if you have the stat points (or good rolls) to spare, hight Int is always nice. Duskblade also has all Knowledge skills as class skills, which allows you to abuse Knowledge Devotion. For all this, I think Duskblade is best class for entry at Suel Arcanamach by far - their only problems are a relative lack of skill points and Int-based casting, and the second kind of solves the first. Specially good with Ranger, Swashbuckler or Warblade. I'm partial to Duskblades, since I love the class from the name to the crunch going straight through the flavour, but bear with me here - they make excellent arcanamachs. See the Duskblade's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=837888&page=15) for more info on them.

Fighter: It's simply bad without the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), but average with it; since you can get Tumble and Gather Information (not a requirement but a nice Cha-based skill) and drop Handle Animal and Ride. Two bonus feats never hurt but most class abilities are worth more than feats. If you are somehow feat starved, Fighter is a good option but otherwise I'd avoid it. For more info on Fighters, check out the Fighter's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=863508).

Hexblade (Complete Warrior): Concentration and Spellcraft as class skills, d10 Hit Dice (better than Duskblade), Mettle is a very nice ability, Cha-based casting and abilities. Unfortunately, curse has level-based DC. All in all, Hexblade is a fine class for entry at Suel Arcanamach - you'll fare pretty well against spellcasters with that Cha-to-saves-against-spells ability. You won't get that many spells from Hexblade (if you get any spells at all), though - so no Versatile Spellcaster for you. As said before, a good choice, not as good as Duskblade, but nice with some Cha synergy. Can gain Tumble as a class skill with the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a). Hexblade spell list is limited but has some great spells and you can always have some wands. Good with Paladin or Knight. For more info on Hexblades, check the Hexblade Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=851379).

Knight (Player's Handbook II): d12 Hit Dice, Jump as a class skill. Knight's Challenge has some Cha synergy, Shield Block and Bulwark of Defense are nice. The Knight's Code is not that harsh - if your oponent is flat-footed, take the time to buff yourself. I guess you could make a mounted Suel Arcanamach, taking advantage of the Mounted Combat bonus feat from Knight and a Hexblade's familiar (and Improved Familiar, of course, and probably Obtain Familiar as well)... Overall a good class, but there are better choices unless you go for Mounted Combat, I suppose. For more info on Knight, check PersonMan's Knight Handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109429).

Paladin: Concentration as a class skill (Tumble with the Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a)), some tasty Cha synergies, Turn Undead at level 4. With Turn Undead you can fuel Divine feats (such as Divine Might, increasing Cha synergy) or Devotion feats (like Travel Devotion for more mobility). Paladins of slaughter and tyranny (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny) synergize well with Hexblade for evil Suel Arcanamachs. You can also use divine wands of paladin spells, and there are some pretty good paladin spells out there. For more info on Paladins, check out the Paladin's Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=858849).

Ranger:: With that same Cityscape web enhancement (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a), the Ranger can get Tumble as a class skill. Added to his 6 skill points per level (with Jump, Concentration and Tumble (if you drop Ride) as class skills), favored enemy and that excelent Dungeonscape substitution level that grants you trapfinding, Ranger is an excelent choice for Suel Arcanamach. You could even be a proper skillmonkey if you take the Able Learner feat. You also gain access to divine wands with Ranger spells, which could be pretty useful. The problem here is that TWF does not mix that well with casting - you need a free hand to cast - and Suel Arcanamach is mostly a melee class, meaning archery will not help that much.There are some ways around it - you can use a double weapon (costs a feat unless it's a quarterstaff or you are a dwarf or gnome), a shield (requires a feat to keep the bonus to AC) or take the Somatic Weaponry feat. A Duskblade/Ranger entry is still pretty nice.

Samurai (Complete Warrior): d10 Hit Dice, Concentration as a class skil, Cha synergy from Kiai Smite (you simply won't get Staredown (as you need at lest a level of Duskblade or Hexblade for Spellcraft) and it's not that great anyway)... and that's about it, really. Kiai Smite is just once a day - Divine Might is vastly superior. But the worst thing is the daisho: you're forced to TWF and, contrary to the Ranger, you can't use a double weapon. Just stay away from the samurai.

Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum): Full BAB, d10 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level (Concentration, Jump, Spellcraft and Tumble (if you drop Ride) as class skills). A surprisingly good option for Suel Arcanamachs, as it has Spellcraft as a class skill and full BAB. If you don't like Duskblade and Hexblade, or if you want some incarnum flavour, this is the class for you. Smite Opposition is better than the Paladin's Smite Evil, Incarnum Defense provides handy immunities depending on alignment, bonus incarnum feats are nice and you can bind soulmelds. One of the few classes, along with Duskblade, that can enter Suel Arcanamach without buying any skills cross-class (that is, if you use the Cityscape web enhancement to trade Ride for Tumble).

Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior): d10 hit dice, 4 skill points per level from an excelent list (including Jump and Tumble), Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat reducing mad, Insightful Strike gives some Int synergy with Duskblade, Grace is just icing on the cake. I mean, do you want fries with that or what? ^^ Swashbuckler/Duskblade makes an excelent Suel Arcanamach.

Warblade (Tome of Battle - The Book of Nine Swords): d12 Hit Dice, 4 skill points/level, maneuvers (Swift Leap could add some mobility and grant some full attacks), Jump, Tumble and Concentration as class skills, Int synergy with Duskblade. Nice and solid. I really like Warblade 3/Duskblade 3 for entry into Suel Arcanamach.

Monk here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/monk.htm): With the Ascetic Mage feat, a Monk/Arcanamach might get some good benefits. Monk only lacks Spellcraft and high BAB for arcanamach qualification. 4 levels of Monk get you requisite skills, +3 bab, all good saves, flurry of blows, two bonus feats, increased speed, unarmed strike and the less useful ki strike (magic), still mind and slow fall. Getting all this keyed to Charisma is pretty tempting, but be careful to not delve in the all-dangerous 'stacking monklike stat-to-AC bonus' territory. Stuff like Ninja/Swordsage/Battledancer were cleraly intended not to stack with Monk if keyed to the same ability score.

Spellthief (Complete Adventurer): With d6 Hit Dice and the low BAB Spellthieves might not seem like arcanamach material (though it sure fits the fluff)... until you notice Master Spellthief. This wonderful feat from Complete Scoundrel helps your caster level a lot specially when paired with Abjurant Champion's Martial Arcanist. 4 levels of Spellthief will cost you a few hit points but will give you all required skills. Notice Spellthieves only get proficiency with simple weapons, so a Spellthief 8 does not qualify for arcanamach unless he is an elf. I actually believe Spellthief 4/Duskblade 3 is a quite decent entry (with Master Spellthief), but be free to experiment since 3 levels of any full BAB class would allow you to qualify (I say any because I've yet to meet a full bab class that does not get you proficiency in at least 4 martial/exotic weapons). Please note the loss of hit points might not be worth it - you will only get the real power boost out of Master Spellthief after Martial Arcanist's kicks in anyway. Pretty solid on higher levels, though.

Alternate Class Features:
Barbarian
Berserker Strenght (Player's Handbook II): It's keyed to your Barbarian level and it won't be very high. Standard Rage is better for Arcanamachs.
Spiritual Totem (Complete Champion): The Lion Totem grants you pounce at first level, making this the best of spiritual totems. The others are not bad, but none are even close to the Lion's greatness.
Wasteland Barbarian (Sandstorm): If you are really into taking 5 levels of Barbarian, this gives you a bonus feat from a very small list instead of uncanny dodge. Could be useful if you are aiming for something specific, but other wise I'd avoid it... but I'd avoid 5 levels of Barbarian anyway.
Spell Sense (Complete Mage): Not bad. You probably face more spells than traps and spells are also usually deadlier. Fits thematically, also.
Trapkiller (Dungeonscape): I love this variation, it's so funny. Adds a lot of versatility to Barbarian Arcanamachs and it's not keyed to Barbarian levels, which is a big plus.

Fighter
Aligned Strike (Complete Champion): You shouldn't take Fighter above 2nd level as an Arcanamach anyway, and this ability does not seem worthy of a feat slot.
Armor of God (Complete Champion): You don't have any troubles with your Will save, right?
Elusive Attack (Player's Handbook II): Since you get it at sixth level, it's the only PHB II sub level for Fighter you could use it in a Fighter-only build going into Arcanamach (but you'd need some trickery to get Spellcraft as a class skill and high Int). It's 100% not worth the trouble, though.
Half-elf Fighter (Races of Destiny): I don't think this is actually that bad, except you have to be half-elf and they totally suck.
Thug/Sneak Attack Fighter (Unearthed Arcana): Oh, look there IS a good alternate class feature for a Fighter arcanamach ^^ This is actually the only official base class with full bab and sneak attack (there is also the Rokugan Ninja, but it's 3rd party). d10 Hit Dice, 4 skill points per level, sneak attack and full bab? Not too shabby.
Zhentarim Fighter here (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.wizards.com/default.asp%3Fx%3Ddnd/we/20060327a): This is all for FREE. Why not take it, really? Meshes pretty nicely with your high Charisma anyway.
Drow Fighter (Drow of the Underdark): So, yes, this is crazy good. +2 initiative AND +Dex to damage when flanking? It's debatable if you can take it without being a drow - don't be a drow just because of it, it's simply not worth. Sadly, it can't be comboed with Thug Fighter.

Hexblade
Dark Companion (Player's Handbook II): Pretty neat - a no-save debuff. You can gain your familiar back (keyed to your whole character level) with the Obtain Familiar feat.
Drakken Familiar (Dragon Magic): Don't take it, Dark Companion is a lot better.

Paladin
Avenging Paladin (Unearthed Arcana): As a static bonus, favored enemy is a lot better than lay on hands. You can even advance it with feats. Solid choice.
Charging Smite (Player's Hanbdook II): Who says only Barbarians can have fun with charging? Unfortunatelly gained only at level 5. If you can fit 5 levels of Paladin in your build, this could be worth it - +10 damage on a charge, and you get to keep your smite if you miss!
Holy Warrior (Complete Champion): A bonus feat is nice, but losing access to Paladin wands is not worth it. Even if you are feat starved, think twice about taking it.
Mystic Fire Knight (Champions of Valor): Very, very good. Fits thematically and all. Only problem is you have just a few levels of Paladin and all.
Shadow Cloak Knight (Champions of Valor): Now that would be an unexpected gnome arcanamach. Basically nice stuff for free.

Ranger
Champion of the Wild (Complete Champion): As the Holy Warrior alternate class feature. Since TWF is really feat-intensive, perhaps you should consider this more than Holy Warrior, but keep in mind wands do add a lot to your versatility.
Distracting Attack (Players Handbook II): Seeing as a level 4 Ranger's animal companion kinda sucks (well, kinda is an unserstatement), this is a good choice. Make the Rogue happy. ^^
Mystic Ranger (Dragon Magazine 336): OK, this is amazing. You give up melee martial weapon proficiency (you still keep ranged) but you gain Spellcraft as a class skill and lots of spells. Going into Arcanamach with a Mystic Ranger gives you a lot of divine support and utility - all of this with full bab, 6 skill points per level and d8 Hit Dice. Very, very good.
Wildshape Ranger (Unearthed Arcana): While certainly not bad, this does not work very well with just a few Ranger levels.
Arcane Hunter (Complete Mage): Amazingly good and it also fits well thematically. Specially awesome when coupled with Nemesis.
Shooting Star (Champions of Valor): Oh, this just keeps getting better and better. This is CRAZY GOOD when combined with Mystic Ranger.
Urban Ranger (Unearthed Arcana): Well, you are not sacrificing much, are you? Just getting the extra spells for your wands is already a good deal.

Soulborn
Dwarf Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum): I really see no reason why NOT take it if you are a Dwarf Soulborn. d12 Hit Dice is very, very sexy.
Elf Soulborn (Magic of Incarnum): You are not exactly very focused on ranged fighting, with dispelling strike being melee and all. I think it's not realy synergetic with Arcanamach at all, so I'd avoid it.

Swashbuckler
Arcane Stunt (Complete Mage): It fits pretty well thematically, but you might actually need Grace depending on your build. Be careful. I think blur is the best option by far here... but feather fall has saved many adventurers across the years.
Shield of Blades (Player's Handbook II): Taking 5 levels of Swashbuckler? Not that good for an Arcanamach. I'd avoid it; it's good on other TWF builds, but you probably have Abjurant Champion's Shield to give you a better bonus.

Other Classes for Entry: Some classes might give you benefits that might compensate for going into arcanamach a level or two later. This is a lot easier on campaigns that start at higher levels, since you don't have to live through your lower levels with sometimes weird class combinations. The example Suel Arcanamach in the WotC article on their website has Rogue levels, for example. If you want to go for a concept, then go for it but if you want to focus on a Suel Arcanamach, I'd say go with the classes presented here. Except CW Samurai, because it sucks!

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:16 PM
Basically you want races with a Cha bonus, bonuses to the physical abilities or bonuses to the abilities that fueled your pre-Suel class abilities. Also notice favored class rarely matters for Suel Arcanamachs as you'll usualy be XYZ 3/ZYX 3 or XYZ 6 (the exception being the Paladin, that needs 4 levels for Turn Undead).
Azurin (Magic of Incarnum): Good with Soulborn, as its their favored class. A point of essentia and a bonus feat (you can make it an incarnum feat for extra flavour) can be a great boon if you focus on it.
Changeling (Eberron Campaign Setting): Inicially not an ideal race for Arcanamachs. The bonuses to skills are nice, Natural Linguist helps learning Ancient Suloise, Minor Change Shape is nice. There is A LOT of cheese involving Chagelings, though - Racial Emulation and Metamorphic Transfer, all sorts of things about Alter Self and such. If you are willing to use this stuff, you can be a very powerful changeling Arcanamach... but then again, with this stuff you could make ANYTHING very powerful.
Daelkyr Half-Blood (Magic of Eberron): Aberration type is good for Alter Self (without any penalties to Charisma, as elans have), Symbiont Mastery helps you qualify for Impure Prince, symbionts are pretty useful. A pretty good race for Arcanamachs.
Dragonborn of Bahamut (Races of the Dragon): +2 Con, -2 Dex, some interesting abilities that progress with HD. Not too shabby, but not great also.
Dwarf: Con bonus and lots of nice racial abilities keeps dwarf from being rated red, but that Cha penalty hurts. Sure, you only need Cha 15 to cast all Suel Arcanamach spells, but bonus spells never hurt, do they? Their proficiency in the dwarven ugrosh makes them a fine choice for Ranger Arcanamachs.
Elf: A Con penalty plus no really useful racial abilities makes elves a really poor choice. You probably already have proficiency with the racial weapons, the skill and save bonuses are nice, but there are better options out there. Much better options. The only cases of elf arcanamachs that I can think of are a single-class Spellthief going into Arcanamach (using elf for the martial proficiencies) or a build geared towards Bladesinger.
Gnome: Gnomes make surprisingly good finesse-based Suel Arcanamachs. Con bonus and Small size makes them difficult to hit and kill. Proficiency with the gnome hooked hammer makes them a good choice for Ranger Arcanamachs. The cantrips and other racial abilities are just icing on the cake.
Half-elf: No. Just no. Even worse than elves. The only ability of value is their Favoured Class: Any that helps avoiding XP penalties due to multiclassing.
Half-orc: You have a penalty to BOTH Intelligence and Charisma, hurting your Duskblade/Hexblade casting as well as your Suel Arcanamach casting. The Str bonus and darkvision are just not worth it. Heck, you don't even gain proficiency with the orc double axe as I first thought.
Halfling: Dex bonus and Small size force you to be a finesse fighter (not a bad thing per se, really). Other racial abilities are pretty nice. Not as good as gnomes, though, at least not for Rangers, and TWF is excelent for finesse fighters. Could be green, but I'll keep it black for now.
Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II): Body aspect grants poison resistance, two bonus feats at higher levels and +2 Con, but a penalty to Int. Spirit aspect grants 30 ft darkvision (improves with levels, you eventually see even in magical darkness), telepathy at level 15, a bonus to Sense Motive, +2 Cha, -2 Con. Both aspects are pretty good for Arcanamachs in the end. Be careful with those Int/Con penalties and Favored Class: Paladin, thought.
Human: An extra skill point per level, a bonus feat, access to Able Learner feat and Favoured Class: Any? Sign me in. Hard to go wrong with human as a race.
Illumian (Races of Destiny): The krau sigil is excelent for Suel Arcanamachs. The aeshkrau word helps MAD issues, allowing you to focus more on Strenght. The naenhoon and hoonvaul words are excellent for Paladin illumians. Illumians also have Favoured Class: Any. Probably on par with human as the best race for a Suel Arcanamach.
Kalashtar (Eberron Campaign Setting): Unless you are going for a Arcanamach/Warmind hybrid, I'd avoid. They don't make bad Arcanamachs (bonus on social skills could help and so would access to psionic feats), but there are better races out there.
Neanderthal (Frostburn): Strenght and Constitution +2, Dexterity and Intelligence -2, bonus on attack rolls with a few weapons. Illiteracy and a penalty to Intelligence makes it hard to qualify for Suel Arcanamach - you need a variety of skill ranks to qualify and you need to read the Grimoire Arcanamacha. Could be used for a variety of Barbarian or Paladin builds.
Neraph (Planar Handbook): This a very good race. Outsider type and a total +9 bonus on skills are already pretty solid por LA +0, but you also gain +2 natural armor, treat the annulat as a martial weapon and get some charge synergy with Neraph Camouflage. Since Outsider type allows you to abuse the Alter Self spell, this race is among the best for Suel Arcanamachs. Sure, you ARE a talking frog, but still...
Shifter (Eberron Campaign Setting): As much as I like shifters, I wouldn't ever choose one as a race for an arcanamach. Penalties to both Intelligence and Charisma and no synergetic abilities make shifters one of the worst races for arcanamachs out there.
Spellscale (Races of the Dragon): A Charisma bonus... but a Constitution penalty. Dragonblood subtype is nice. The blood-quickening meditations that grant metamagic feats or Eschew Materials are interesting - not extremely powerful, but interesting nonetheless. A nice race, but the Con bonus hurts. The illustrations are awful, also. ^^
Warforged (Eberron Campaign Setting): By Surreal: normally a suboptimal choice due to their favoured class and stat mods, but they qualify for Spellcarved Soldier.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:17 PM
Suel Arcanamach requires only 2 feats and some of the classes usually used for entry grant bonus feats. You most probably won't be feat starved and even if you are fitting 2 Fighters levels in your build is probably not going to hurt. I will discuss how various feats can be a boon (or not) to a Suel Arcanamach now:

Able Learner (Races of Destiny): Humans and doppelgangers only (I guess changelings can also take it, but I could be wrong). Allows you to buy cross-class skills for the normal cost. Excelent when you are heavy on multiclassing like most Arcanamachs are. With the Ranger alternative class feature from Dungeonscape and this feats, you could double as a skill monkey.

Aereni Focus (Player's Guide to Eberron): Adds any skill as a class skill. Allows you to get Spellcraft without levels of Duskblade or Hexblade. This reduces potential Versatile Spellcaster use and... it requires you to be an elf. Can't say I think this is worth the effort; Duskblade/Hexblade levels actually help you in being a better arcanamach. If you need some special ability from a base class at 6, though, take it.

Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine): It's a trap! This feat only adds the domain spells to your spell list, NOT your spells known.

Arcane Strike (Complete Warrior): I have a few doubts about this feat. If you get Abjurant Champion levels, you already have an ability to sacrifice spell slots for varied. If you don't, the bonus to attack and damage don't even feel that high unless you are going nova. However, it is a free action to activate, meaning you can sacrifice MULTIPLE spells per round - the to-hit bonus won't increase, but you would add multiple d4 to damage. How about sacrificing all those 1st level Duskblade spells in a single round for a really powerful full-attack? Thing is, I don't think the feat is intended as such; the bonus to attack is named and so it does not stack with each other. With the d4s we go into that debate of wether it stacks or not... Arcane Strike gives me headachers, but if you can in fact stack it, its a very good feat.

Arcane Thesis (Player's Handbook II): Since you know so few spells, focusing on one is not that bad. Just choose wisely. Also, please note Arcane Thesis usually works better when you have metamagic and focus on attack spells... you probably do neither.

Ascetic Mage (Complete Adventurer): You need Monk levels - and that means losing one point of BAB - but CHA to AC is nice to have. The "Arcane Strike light" thing is kind of useless, and Suel Arcanamach levels won't stack for unarmed damage or AC bonus. But CHA to AC for one feat is useful, if you're getting Monk levels for some reason.

Awesome Smite (Complete Champion): So you think you could benefit from this feat in a smite-focused build? Well, you can't. Really bad benefits; take the usual charger feats (Combat Brute, Shock Trooper, Leap Attack...)

Battle Blessing (Complete Champion): Awesome feat for Paladins, useless with characters with so few Paladin levels.
Battle Caster (Complete Arcane): This is a trap for Arcanamachs. Both Hexblades and Duskblades could benefit from this, but it does not affect your Arcanamach casting at all.

Battle Casting (Races of the Wild): Requires Combat Casting that you already have anyway - grants +2 dodge bonus to AC if you give up your ability to make attacks of opportunity for a round. Could be a good choice, specially on more casting-heavy builds, like those with War Weaver and the like.

Battlecaster Defense (Complete Mage): It just does not have enought benefits to justify taking it, I guess.

Battlecaster Offense (Complete Mage): Very minor benefits, just like it's defensive counterpart. Not worth a feat slot.

Brutal Strike (Player's Handbook II): Good feat for those THW builds, specially once you add Greater Mighty Wallop to the mix.

(Greater) Cleave: Surrounding yourself with enemies is not a very smart thing to do, is it? O.o Of course, sometimes you simply don't have the choice. If your DM is a fan of mobs and you already have Power Attack, you should take this feat. Otherwise, avoid it.

Combat Casting: A prerequisite for Suel Arcanamach. Not a very good feat (Skill Focus (Concentration) is better), but it is also a requirement to a prestige class that further augments Arcanamach's power (Abjurant Champion) and Duskblades gets it for free at level 2 anyway.

Combat Expertise: It is a requirement for Improved Trip and has it's uses. By itself, Combat Expertise is not that great unless you build specifically around it; also, since it requires an attack or full-attack action, many times you won't be able to gain the feat's benefit while casting a spell.
Combat Reflexes: Unvaluable for battlefield controlers, useful for anyone else, especially with reach weapons.

Craven (Champions of Ruin): Let me get this out of the way - I hate this feat with a passion. The concept is that you are an easily scared sissy and so you hit harder with sneak attacks. I mean, what? If you have Spellthief or Sneak Attack Fighter levels (or Assassin's Stance) you can take this feat - you just can't be immune to fear (ever). It adds a nice damage bonus and has been known to make TWFighting a lot more viable option across the boards. It is a good feat, it will increase your damage output, but your defeated opponents will laugh because after you hit'em there is a yellow spot in your pants. I'd never take this feat, but if you really want the damage and don't mind being a scared little girl, don't let me stop you.

Divine Might (Complete Warrior): Very good choice for Paladin Arcanamachs. Adding Charisma to damage is a really good way to use your turn attempts.

Divine Shield (Complete Warrior): I wish this was a free action like Divine Might. May be useful for shield fighting builds - though since you need Paladin 4, you probably don't have any Ranger (for TWF) or Knight (for Shield Block) levels, I see no reason for shield fighting anyway.

Dodge: A prerequisite for a number of good feats like Elusive Target. Otherwise, useless.

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: You probably don't need it, unless you are going the battlefield control way with spiked chain. I'd avoid it, there are better feats out there.

Enhanced Power Sigils (Races of Destiny): Illumian only. Arguably better than Practiced Spellcaster, as it boosts your caster level by 3 while giving bonuses to other things. If you are really into the Mage Slayer feat or don't have access to Abjurant Champion, you could take both.

Extend Rage: Could be useful, specially in Rage Mage builds. Arguably the best rage-improving feat out there.

Extra Rage (Complete Warrior): Since you won't have that many levels in Barbarian, a very good feat to have.

Extra Smiting (Complete Warrior): Like Extra Rage, except Smite is not as good as Rage (not even close, really). Could be good with the substitution level from Complete Champion that gives Paladins a really good damage boost when smiting on a charge, though.

Extra Spell (Complete Arcane): Errata'd to only give you spells on your class list. There are better ways to expand your spells known and better feats out there.

Extra Slot (Complete Arcane): I just don't think a 4th level slot is worth a feat.

Extra Turning: If you are a Paladin with Divine and/or Devotion feats, this will probably prove to be very useful... if you have room for it.

Guerrilla Scout (Heroes of Battle): A bonus to initiative is always nice; it's also an "Able-Learner-light" for Listen and Spot since you probably have both skills are class skills for some class.

Guerrilla Warrior (Heroes of Battle): Reducing armor check penalties is nice since many of Suel Arcanammach class skills are affected by it. As Guerrilla Scout, it's an "Able-Learner-light" for Hide and Move Silently.

Hunter's Mark (Dragonmarked): Increases bonuses from favored enemy class ability. Specially good if you have favored enemy (evil) or something along these lines.

Improved Critical: Most people will say you can just have a keen weapon, but sometimes you can't - your DM may be strict on the buying of magic items, you may have found a very good weapon (perhaps an artifact or legacy weapon) that does not have the keen property, etc. Even if you have the feat to spare, think twice about taking this.

Improved Familiar: Really good for Hexblades. There are some nice tricks you can pull out with familiars.

Improved Favored Enemy (Complete Warrior): Usually a very good feat for Rangers, it's not that great for Suel Arcanamachs as you'll probably only have one favored enemy. Could be very good with favored enemy (evil or arcanists).

Improved Toughness (Complete Warrior): Specially good if your Con is relatively low. You can never have too much Hit Points.

Improved Initiative: As you advance in levels, going first becomes more and more important. A nice feat to have, but there are better feats out there. Since you get nerveskitter, you probably don't need it.

Improved Shield Bash: Good for TWF builds, specially with Knight in it. There has been a lot of talk of shield fighting; use the search function and you'll find lots of related threads.

Improved Sigil (Races of Destiny): Illumian only. Aesh is like Weapon Specialization with no need for Fighter levels (you could take if you aim for a PrC that requires Weapon Focus anyway), Hoon is not worth it, Krau is useful if you want to focus on offensive spells, Naen has marginal benefit, Uur is ranged so it doesn't mix too well with Arcanamach, Vaul is not needed with your good Will save. This feat is better if you have Enhanced Power Sigils.

Improved Smiting (Complete Divine): Smite is not that useful for you to spend a feat on improving it, IMHO.

Improved Trip: Tripping is usually considered a VERY strong option in melee, specially with the spells to buff you up.

Item Creation Feats: Just don't. You are not a primary spellcaster. Don't spend a feat slot on this.

Iron Will: A requirement for Suel Arcanamach. A bad feat since you already have nice Will saves, but you can't do anything about it. At least you can dump Wisdom more safely.

Keeper of the Forbidden Lore (Fiendish Codex I):

It is an Abyssal Heritor feat, requires Int 13, and gives you a bonus to Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, and bardic knowledge equal to the number of Abyssal Heritor feats you know. In addition, Knowledge (The Planes) and Spellcraft are always class skills for you, and can be used untrained. You also take a -2 penalty on Gather Info.
Being a Abyssal Heritor feat means it has a minor minor minor additional drawback, in that if you get second such feat, you are locked into being chaotic. Woo.
I don't own Fiendish Codex I, so I'm not really comfortable rating this feat. Thanks a lot, IdleMuse! I think it's better than Aereni Focus since it allows you to NOT be an elf. It also gives you Knowledge (the planes), useful with Knowledge Devotion.

Knowledge Devotion (Complete Champion): So you have Duskblade levels. So Duskblades have all Knowledge skills as class skills. So this feat does not have a limit on uses per day. So this feat does not even require an action to activate. Heck, just take it already - skill-based bonuses to attack AND damage of up to +5? There are lots of ways to boost Knowledge checks.

Leap Attack (Complete Adventurer): Very good for charge builds, as you all probably know very well.

Leap of the Heavens (Player's Handbook II): Good for Warblades using Swift Leap to close with the enemy, since you may have difficulty qualifying for Leaping Dragon Stance with the Martial Stance feat. Also, available later - if you can take Leap of the Heavens and then retrain it to Martial Study (Leaping Dragon Stance), that would be optimal.

Mage Slayer (Complete Arcane): You lose 4 caster levels, but this could be fixed with Practiced Spellcaster. Even then, you're losing two feats for a situational benefit (a damn good one, but still) against a specific kind of enemy. Think twice before taking it.

Martial Study (Tome of Battle): You get a maneuver 1/encounter. Maneuvers are pretty cool by themselves. You also get a skill as a class skill, depending on the discipline. Desert Wind adds Tumble.

Metamagic Feats: Since you don't have high level spell slots, should be avoided unless you can somehow reduce their cost. Otherwise, you are better off using metamagic rods.

Minor Shapeshift (Complete Mage): I really like this feat. It adds good bonus that you can easily shift depending on the situation. The temporary hit points, specially, are very very good.

Mithral Body (Eberron Campaign Setting): Practically mandatory for Warforged Arcanamachs.

Mithral Fluidity (Eberron Campaign Setting): It doesn't reduce spell failure, so ignore it.

Mother Cyst (Libris Mortis): Expands your spell list. The spells are not 'omfg' (they are actually really disgusting), but if it suits your taste and you want offensive spells, that's a quick way to gain them.

Mounted Combat: Knight gets it for free. Only take this route if you want to specialize in mounted combat.

Obtain Familiar (Complete Arcane): Very good feat, specially if coupled with Improved Familiar. Even a Hexblade should probably drop his familiar for dark companion and take this feat.

Persistent Spell (Complete Arcane): Only good for Illumian Paladins with the right word, but VERY good for them. An exception to the no-metamagic rule.

Pierce Magical Concealment/Protection (Complete Arcane): You would be losing too much caster levels. No.

Power Attack: Very good with a two handed weapon and a must in a Strenght-based build.

Practical Metamagic (Races of the Dragon): A nice feat to have if you have Dragonblood subtype; a good reason to play a Spellscale.

Practiced Spellcaster (Complete Arcane): Very nice feat if you are not an illumian. May fade in utility once you get Abjurant Champion, but nice nonetheless. Can be combined with Mage Slayer to negate its penalties.

Reckless Rage (Races of Stone): Makes Barbarians even more savage. Very good feat.

Shock Trooper (Complete Warrior): This feat makes chargers even more deadly, specially if combined with Combat Brute. Fit both os these feats in a Rage Mage build and wreak some havok.

Shielded Casting (Races of Stone): You already have Combat Casting anyway, why not avoid attacks of oportunity while casting? Unfortunatelly doesn't work that well with Abjurant Champion, since you have no need for shields with levels in that class. Good for Knight Arcanamachs.

Silver Smite (Eberron Campaign Setting): (Thanks, Greenish) Smiting is not that good to focus on it by spending feats on it. Even if you do want to focus on smiting, Improved Smiting has similar (and better) benefits.

Somatic Weaponry (Complete Mage): Another solution to TWFighters Arcanamachs. If you can avoid spending a feat on this, please do. Could be your only choice, though.

(Greater) Spell Focus: I'd avoid it. The bonuses are nice, but you are probably better off using your spells to buff yourself.

Spell Penetration: You probably won't be using much offensive spells. If you for some reason are using offensive spells and suddenly realize your target has spell resistance, draw your sword and dice them - a lot more efficient than wasting a feat on this.

Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor): This feat is pretty nice. I only rated it black because on a Mystic Ranger this feat makes Suel Arcanamach kind of obsolete, really.

Symbiont Mastery (Magic of Eberron): Required for Impure Prince, bonus feat for half-daelkyr. Pretty useful, actually - bonus HPs never hurt.

Titan Fighting (Races of Stone): As if gnomes were not good enought Arcanamachs already... A nice bonus to AC, the only problem is Dodge as a prerequisite.

Travel Devotion (Complete Champion): Problems with mobility for your TWFer? You never get to perform a full-attack? You wish you could move and still beat the crap outta them? Well, now you can! Travel Devotion is an excelent use for your turn undead attempts - just burn them all permanently and fuel this feat. The drawback is that it uses your swift action, so you won't be able to cast Quickened Spells such as from the Abjurant Champion's ability.

(Improved, Greater) Two-weapon Fighting: Extra attacks are always nice. TWF does not synergise well with casting, though, as you need a free hand to cast. If you wield a double weapon, you can just hold the weapon with one hand while you cast. Rangers gain TWF as bonus feat at level 2, dwarves and gnomes gain automatic martial proficiency with racial double weapons. Double weapons also synergise well with Arcane Strike. You could also use a shield as an off-hand weapon.

Weapon Finesse: Reduces MAD, Swashbucklers gain it for free at level 1. The base for finesse Arcanamachs.

(Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization: A very minor bonus; useful at lower levels but fades into uselessness really fast. Opens the Weapon Focus tree, which has some nice feats - you probably won't have the requisite Fighter levels, though.

Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon): Amazing feat for Duskblade Arcanamachs. Spend all those Duskblade spell slots casting Suel Arcanamach spells! No reason not to take this feat - you already have the requirements anyway.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:18 PM
You get all class abilities in the first 4 levels of Suel Arcanamach; all you get from the rest is more uses of class abilities and more casting. 4th level is an excelent breaking point as it is just before you lose another BAB.
From there, you could progress to:

Abjurant Champion (Complete Mage): Full BAB, full casting. Use this to improve your Suel Arcanamach casting and gain a major boost of power. Sets your caster level to BAB (probably a +9 ir +8 boost), significantly increases the efficiency of some defensive spells, allows you automatically cast Abjuration spells as swift actions, doubles the duration of Abjuration spells and allows you to sacrifice spell slots (Duskblade, anyone?) for some benefits.

Acolyte of the Skin (Complete Arcane): 3/4 BAB, 1/2 casting, d8 Hit Dice, easy to qualify, 2 skill points/level of limited list. Some bonuses to attributes and natural armor, some fear and fire related abilities, a type change to outsider and an ability to summon a fiend. Not too shabby, but there are better classes to advance your Suel Arcanamach casting.

Arcane Duelist (here) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a): This is a really weird class. 1/2 BAB, does not advance casting. Has two good abilities, some wtf abilities, good skill list, good hit dice. Two levels get you CHA to AC and a boost to saves. Not worthy, but it's not red since Cha to AC is really useful. Unfortunatelly requires Dodge and Mobility... heck, I guess it could be red indeed. Check out the Arcane Duelist Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=953800).

Blade Dancer (Oriental Adventures): Full BAB, no casting, 2 skill points/level from good list, d8 Hit Dice. Could be worst. The Dragon Magazine 318 updates Oriental Adventures to 3.5 edition, but strangely does not mention Blade Dancers or how their Leap of the Clouds is supposed to work. Ask your DM - I think giving them the Leap of the Heavens feat (PHB II) is a fine way to update it, bus that's just me. Requires Dodge, Mobility and Spring Attack to qualify - could be good as a one-level-dip if you already have Swiftblade and can't activate the 10th-level ability. A single level gives you high bonuses to both skills and movement. The other abilities are not really worth your time.

Bladesinger (Complete Warrior): Full BAB, 1/2 caster. Requires you to be an elf or half-elf (probably the worst races for a Suel Arcanamach), very feat intensive requiring three not-so-awesome feats (Combat Expertise, Dodge and Weapon Focus), only has 2 skill points per level (though the list is nice). The class abilities are pretty neat - bladesong style adds Int synergy for a Duskblade/Swashbuckler entry, Lesser Spellsong is nice to avoid attacks of oportunity more safely, Song of Celerity is the really good thing here (you only get up to 5th level spells anyway), Greater Spellsong means you can drop Spellsword and take Battle Caster (if you're into that kind of thing) and Song of Fury is nice to have but much less powerful than Song of Celerity. This class is the only reason to make an elf Suel Arcanamach and it's not that great of a reason, really. Could work and would probably be fun, but it's not overly powerful.

Cyran Avenger (Five Nations): Full BAB, d8 Hit Dice, 4 skill points/level from a good list, 4/5 casting. This is already pretty good for something that only requires Track and a few skills a Ranger Arcanamach would already have anyway, but this class also has Avenging Strike. Bonus d6 to damage equal to Cyran Avenger level, Charisma added to attack AND it can be used once a day per point of Charisma bonus. Bite your heart out, Paladins, this is SO much better than Smite Evil! Also, this class allows you to qualify for Arcanamach at XXX 5/Cyran Avenger 1.

Doomlord (Planar Handbook): Full BAB, 1/2 casting, d12 Hit Dice, 2 skill ponts/level from average list, requires Improved Sunder (and thus Power Attack) and Weapon Focus (any sword). Entropic Blow is a smite-like ability for Charisma synergy, you gain a total of three bonus feats fro a limited list, dispel magic (caster level = class level + Charisma modifier) and disintegrate as spell-like abilities, +2 to Con or Cha and some minor abilities. You become resistant to healing magic, though, which is bad. If you are into the Doomguard (or the character Haer'Dalis from Baldur's Gate II), take this class. Otherwise, think twice.

Dragon Disciple: 3/4 BAB, no casting, d12 Hit Dice, 2 skill points from weird but nice list, easy requirements. This usually subpar class is actually pretty nice for a Suel Arcanamach that has already maxed his spellcasting and still has class levels to spare. In 4 levels, you gain 3 bonus 5th level spells, +2 natural armor, +4 Strenght, natural attacks with claws and bite and a 2d8 breath weapon for the cost of a point of BAB. A Neraph Dragon Disciple would be so very funny...

Dragonslayer (Draconomicon): Full BAB, 1/2 casting, d10 Hit Dice, 2 skill points per level of limited list. You only need one feat to qualify, since Iron Will is already a Suel Arcanamach required feat. Immunity to fear is nice, Damage Reduction is handy, the damage bonus and IMproved Critical against dragons will be useful once you fight them, you gain a bonus feat (Lightning Reflexes; hey it´s free ^^). The 10th level however only provides once a day true strike (as a move action, granted, but meh) and a +5 to energy resistance, so it's probably not worthwhile to take it.

Eldritch Knight: Not worth it. There are other classes than can grant you the same benefits while giving you class abilities along the way. May be useful if your DM complains about fluff requirements of other classes.

Fiend-Blooded (Heroes of Horror): Poor BAB, d4 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level from pretty average list, 9/10 spellcasting, requires two almost useless feats. Why is this class even mentioned here? Fiendish Sorcery. This ability, gained for the first time at 2nd level (thus losing only 1 BAB on 2 level dip) allows you to expand your spell list with spells from any other class - they just need to have fire descriptor, or be from the schools of enchantment, illusion or necromancy. You also apply the fiendish template to your familiar (well, if you have one) and gain some ability bonuses. Good class if you want to expand your spell list and emphasize your caster side, but the cost is very high.

Green Star Adept (Complete Arcane): 3/4 BAB, 1/2 casting (but adds class level to spellcaster level), d8 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level from limited list, d8 Hit Dice, only requires Combat Casting (you already have it) and a number of skills... and the starmetal thing. You gain damage reduction, increasingly high bonuses to Strenght and natural armor and penalties to Dexterity, a slam attack, bonuses to saving throws against various effects, fortification, darkvision, low-light vision and immunity to various effects. The full transformation in construct looks like a bad deal - you will be losing your Constitution bonuses to HP and you won't be able to be healed.
Green Star Adept is controversial. As in, highly controversial. It has an ability that supposedly adds class level to caster level, but the example is calculated as if it only adds half the class level to caster level. Heated debate is always onto this, since the example character can't even qualify for the prestige class and the whole text seems rushed. Use it with caution.

Impure Prince (Magic of Eberron): Full BAB, d8 Hit Dice, 4/6 casting, 4 skill points/level from good list. Not bad, and let's take a look at the class abilities: expanded spell list (very nice, adding 10 spells to your spells known), you can lure symbionts (and some are pretty nice), you increase your favored enemy bonuses for aberrations, you gain a fortification-like ability and a weird burst attack (unfortunatelly Wisdom based). A solid class for Ranger Arcanamachs.

Jade Phoenix Mage (Tome of Battle): If you qualified for Suel Arcanamach with levels of Warblade or Crusader, you just need to choose the right skills to qualify (Crusader entry is better since it allows you to choose higher level Devoted Spirit maneuvers). Full BAB, 8/10 casting, d6 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level from limited list. The class abilities are pretty good - Arcane Wrath can be deadly if combined with Arcane Channeling, Rite of Waking is good with Knowledge Devotion, Mystic Phoenix Stance is nice but not great (it even caps at a 5th level spell, perfect for Arcanamachs), Empowering Strike is good, Firebird Stance is not good since you probably won't have enough fire spells (if any at all) to make it useful, Quickening Strike is excelent. Emerald Immolation is better for it's healing than for i's damage, and it's only once a week.

Knight Phantom (Five Nations): OK, so you have to spend 4 ranks in Ride and a known spell on phantom steed. But you can cast on light armor without worrying about spell failure (and you can use the spell failure reduction gained from Arcanamach for a shield) and you gain lots of ghost-like stuff (oh, c'mon, ghosts are cool). A good class if you like it's flavour, but if you are not a ghost-freak or something, there are better choices out there.

Platinum Knight (Draconomicon): Full BAB, 1/2 casting, d8 Hit Dice, 2 skill points, good but not awesome skill list. You need to burn a feat on Dragonfriend and to be able to speak Draconic. Most abilities are too focused - the only good abilities are Platinum Scales and the Charisma bonus. I'd rather go with Dragonslayer.

Rage Mage (Complete Warrior): Very easy to meet requirements; if you are a Barbarian Arcanamach, you already qualify by Suel Arcanamach 2. Horrible class skills and only 2 skill points per level. Spell Rage is good if you don't use Abjurant Champion; but you gain to ability to cast spells in a rage (any rage). Overcome spellfailure is nice, more Rage uses are also nice, Angry Spell can allow you to focus on offensive spells if you want it for some reason, Spell Fury is only once per rage but still could save your life and Warrior Cry is one of those 'OMFG' abilities. As mentioned before, this class gives more benefits if you DON'T have Abjurant Champion levels; consider it as an option if you don't have access to Complete Mage.

Sandshaper (Sandstorm): Poor BAB, d6 Hit Dice, 8/10 casting, requires a not-so-useless feat (at least it gives bonuses to Charisma-based skills) and may be hard to qualify without Ranger levels. A single level loses you one BAB but gives Sand Shape and Dust Magic - both a good reason to carry a sand gourd on your back (just don't make a tattoo meaning 'love' on your forehead, it's silly ^^)... but the more important, you gain Desert Insight, which means THIRTY FOUR spells added to your spells known. That's more spells than you would ever know as a straight Suel Arcanamach. Only worth for the 1 level dip, though.

Scion of Tem-Et-Nu (Sandstorm): Full BAB, 1/2 casting, d10 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level, no feat requirements (only skills). You gain various bonuses when fighting in rivers, but how often does that happen anyway? Only non-river class abilities are Smite Evil, Divine Power as a spell-like ability once a day and River's Vigor (pretty nice, grants temporary hit points for a fair amount of time). Unless you are in a river based campaign (and I never heard about one of those), it's best to avoid the Scion.

Skylord (Book of Exalted Deeds): Full BAB, 1/2 casting, d10 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level of a fair list. Requirements are a bit steep (10 ranks in Handle Animal and Ride and three feats, one of which is Mounted Combat that Knight's get for free) but it's a way for Knight Arcanamachs to gain a flying mount. Perhaps the best class for mounted Arcanamachs, as it grants a mount and also progresses spellcasting.

Spellcarved Soldier (Races of Eberron): By Surreal: basically boosts all your buff spells even further. It doubles duration again, which should stack with Suel and Abjurant Champion boosts, and it also adds +5 to dispel resistance. You can also wear a 3rd ring, and robes on top of your plating, and add your SCS level to your caster level. There are a few other runes too, if you so choose. Spellsword (Complete Warrior): Very easy to meet requirements. Channel spell is superior to a below 13th level Duskblade's Arcane Channeling, though limited per day. You gain a bonus feat and the decrease of spell failure is very high. Unfortunately, since you know so few spells, you will have to give up some buffs to make Spellsword worth it. A 1 level dip is recomended for almost all Suel Arcanamach builds, though - +1 BAB, +2 Fortitude and Will, +10% spell failure reduction. Few skill points and limited skill list, though.

Swiftblade (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327)): Full BAB, 6/10 casting (which just happens to be exactly what you need to finish Suel Arcanamach after dropping at 4), 4 skill points/level of a list similar to Arcanamach. Requires Dodge and Mobility, quite subpar feats, but gives som pretty good class abilities focused on the haste spell. All abilities just work while hasted, so be careful. The capstone ability at 10th level would be really awesome for Arcanamachs (who are not sacrificing spell levels) for that... except you need a 6th level slot to use it, and Arcanamachs don't get 6th level spells. Perhaps you could use Versatile Spellcaster to pull this of, but I'm not sure. Also check out the excellent Swiftblade Handbook (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=859073), it might give you some interesting ideas.

Thrall of Demogorgon (Book of Vila Darkness): Full BAB, 4/10 spellcasting (or 4 bonus feats), d8 Hit Dice, 4 skill points/level of a good list. Special abilities include increase in natural armor, a minor Cha-based fear effect, a weird ability that increases reach 3/day, some other evil stuff that doesn't really matter... and the amazing Dual Actions ability gained at 4th level that allow you to, two times a day, act two rounds in one. Requirements are steep - two useless feats.

Thrall of Orcus (Book of Vile Darkness): Full BAB, 4/10 spellcasting, d8 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level from weird list (you get Spot but not Listen? Wth...). Requires two dead feats for entry. Weird undead-loving class - you need to be able to cast a Necromancy spell, you can probably pull that from your Hexblade or Duskblade levels. It has some interesting abilities. Carrion Stench is an at-will area debuff with Con-based DC. You gain either Deformity (Obese) or Deformity (Tall), a fear touch, undead summoning, demon wings that progress in power, a special form of alter self that turns you into a humanoid undead (as well as granting a fear aura) and a save-or-die touch attack. A good class for a frightening and disgusting BBEG, but I'd avoid it for player characters.

Topaz Guardian (Lords of Madness): Full BAB, 3/5 spellcasting, d8 Hit Dice, requires ranks in a few skills and the feat Quick Recovery (bot a bad feat per se). The main feature of the class, the Topaz Diadem, is a magical item that becomes more powerful as you gain levels - it grants partial immunity to enchantment (charm or compulsion) effects and increasing bonuses to AC and saves vs effects made by evil creatures. You also gain a smite attack against aberrations and a bonus to resist grapple checks. Good in an aberration-heavy campaign.

Unseen Seer (Complete Mage): You have the skills, but you need to keep in mind to choose those 2 divinations among your spells known. 3/4 BAB, d4 Hit Dice, full casting, 6 skill points/level, increases caster level for divinations and reduces it for everything else, but you could avoid it with only a 2 level dip - enough to get Advanced Learning for Hunter's Eye and then bootstrapping the damage bonus +1d6 while Hunter's Eye is active - it's a spell worth Persisting if you are a Illumian. If you are a Spellthief, Unseen Seer is golden - your increased caster levels will make Hunter's Eye a lot more powerful.

War Weaver (Heroes of Battle): Poor BAB, d4 Hit Dice, 2 skill points/level from a very poor list, 4/5 casting. So, what is so great about the War Weaver? Their Eldritch Tapestry ability that makes this all worth it - you can use your buffs not only on your, but also on an ally for each point of your Charisma modifier - probably your whole party! You can only use up to 5th level spells for this ability, but you only have spells of up to 5th level anyway. It eventually increases the range of your buffing spells and allows you to set up buffs in advance and then buff your whole party as a move action. Very solid class for a support Suel Arcanamach - your party will love you!

Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic): d4 Hit Dice, poor BAB, 2 skill points/level of limited list, 7/10 casting. Looks pretty bad, right? Except with Spell Research you can add spells from any list of up to 4th level to the Suel Arcanamach list. Hunter's Eye, Divine Power and other awesome spells can be gained via this ability with only a 2 level dip.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:20 PM
Oh, your spell selection. Spells are an Arcanamach's greatest asset and you are limited on your choices, so choose'em well. The following are some spells I thought I'd comment, I'll add more soon.

The following is a list of all spells available to arcanamachs from PHB, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, Player's Handbook II and Spell Compendium. This amazingly useful list was made by Thurbane. Thanks a lot, Thurbane! You rock!

1st level
Accelerated Movement (SC)
Alarm (PHB)
Alibi (EoE)
Animate Rope (PHB)
Appraising Touch (SC)
Armor Lock (CS)
Arrow Mind (SC)
Babau Slime (SC)
Bestow Wound (HoH)
Breath Flare (SC)
Burning Rage (PHB II)
Cheat (SC)
Color Spray (PHB)
Combat Readiness (DU)
Comprehend Languages (PHB)
Critical Strike (SC)
Cutting Hand (SC)
Dead End (SC)
Deflect, Lesser (PHB II)
Detect Dragonblood (DM)
Detect Secret Doors (PHB)
Detect Undead (PHB)
Detect Weaponry (Cty)
Discern Bloodline (RoD)
Disguise Self (PHB)
Dispel Ward (SC)
Ebon Eyes (SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (SC)
Endure Elements (PHB)
Enlarge Person (PHB)
Erase (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift (SC)
Eyes of the Avoral (BoED)
Feather Fall (PHB)
Fist of Stone (SC)
Float (Fr)
Friendly Face (RoD)
Ghostly Reload (RotD)
Golem Strike (SC)
Guided Shot (SC)
Hoard Gullet (DM)
Hold Portal (PHB)
Horrible Taste (SC)
Identify (PHB)
Insightful Feint (SC)
Instant Diversion (RotD)
Instant Locksmith (SC)
Instant Search (SC)
Ironguts (SC)
Jump (PHB)
Karmic Aura (CM)
Locate City (RoD)
Locate Water (Snd)
Low-Light Vision (SC)
Mage Burr (CS)
Mage Hand, Greater (SC)
Magic Aura (PHB)
Magic Weapon (PHB)
Master’s Touch (SC)
Mighty Wallop (RotD)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Nightshield (SC)
Path of Frost (DM)
Peacebond (Cty)
Portal Beacon (SC)
Protection from (alignment) (PHB)
Quickswim (Stm)
Raging Flame (SC)
Ray of Clumsiness (SC)
Reduce Person (PHB)
Remove Scent (SC)
Resist Planar Alignment (SC)
Scatterspray (SC)
Scholar’s Touch (RoD)
Secret Weapon (Cty)
Serene Visage (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Shieldbearer (SC)
Silent Image (PHB)
Slide (SC)
Slow Burn (SC)
Sniper’s Shot (SC)
Snowdrift (Fr)
Snuff the Light (DU)
Spell Flower (SC)
Spider Form, Lesser (DU)
Spontaneous Search (SC)
Sunstroke (Snd)
Targeting Ray (SC)
Treacherous Weapon (EoE)
True Casting (CM)
True Strike (PHB)
Ventriloquism (PHB)
Vigilant Slumber (CM)
Wave Blessing (Stm)
Weapon Shift (SC)

2nd level
Aiming at the Target (SC)
Alarm, Greater (SC)
Allied Footsteps (CM)
Alter Self (PHB)
Animalistic Power (PHB II)
Arcane Lock (PHB)
Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Attentive Alarm (CM)
Augment Familiar (SC)
Balancing Lorecall (SC)
Balor Nimbus (SC)
Bear’s Endurance (PHB)
Belker Claws (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)
Blinding Color Surge (PHB II)
Blur (PHB)
Body of the Sun (SC)
Boiling Blood (CM)
Bristle (SC)
Brumal Stiffening (Fr)
Bull’s Strength (PHB)
Cat’s Grace (PHB)
Catapult (CS)
Celerity, Lesser (PHB II)
Chain of Eyes (SC)
Cloak Pool (SC)
Crystalline Memories (CM)
Daggerspell Stance (SC)
Dark Way (SC)
Darkvision (PHB)
Deflect (PHB II)
Delusions of Grandeur (SC)
Detect Aberration (LoM)
Detect Thoughts (PHB)
Discern Shapechanger (SC)
Discolor Pool (SC)
Disguise Undead (SC)
Dispelling Touch (PHB II)
Dissonant Chant (SC)
Distracting Ray (SC)
Eagle’s Splendor (PHB)
Earth Lock (SC)
Earthbind (SC)
Earthen Grasp (SC)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (SC)
Energize Potion (BoED)
Energy Surge, Lesser (PHB II)
Enlarge Weapon (CS)
Extend Tentacles (SC)
False Peacebond (Cty)
Fearsome Grapple (SC)
Fins to Feet (SC)
Fly, Swift (SC)
Fox’s Cunning (PHB)
Frost Weapon (Fr)
Fuse Arms (SC)
Ghost Touch Armor (SC)
Heart of Air (CM)
Heroics (SC)
Hurl (SC)
Hypnotic Pattern (PHB)
Icicle (Fr)
Increase Virulence (PHB II)
Infernal Wound (SC)
Insight of Good Fortune (PHB II)
Investiture of the Spined Devil (FC II)
Invisibility (PHB)
Ironthunder Horn (SC)
Jaws of the Moray (Stm)
Knock (PHB)
Kuo-Toa Skin (Stm)
Levitate (PHB)
Lively Step (SC)
Locate Object (PHB)
Lucky Streak (CS)
Magic Mouth (PHB)
Magical Backlash (DU)
Marked Object (SC)
Master’s Touch (PHB II)
Minor Image (PHB)
Mirror Image (PHB)
Misdirection (PHB)
Mountain Stance (SC)
Obscure Object (PHB)
Owl’s Wisdom (PHB)
Phantasmal Assailants (SC)
Phantom Trap (PHB)
Portal Alarm (SC)
Protection from Arrows (PHB)
Pyrotechnics (PHB)
Quick Potion (SC)
Razorfangs (SC)
Reflective Disguise (SC)
Repair Moderate Damage (SC)
Resist Energy (PHB)
Returning Weapon (RotW)
Rope Trick (PHB)
Scale Weakening (SC)
Scintillating Scales (SC)
See Invisibility (PHB)
Shadow Double (DU)
Shadow Mask (SC)
Shadow Radiance (SC)
Shadow Shroud (DU)
Shadow Spray (SC)
Share Talents (PHB II)
Sink (Stm)
Slide, Greater (SC)
Snake’s Swiftness (SC)
Sonic Weapon (SC)
Soul of Anarchy (DM)
Soul of Order (DM)
Speak to Allies (SC)
Spider Climb (PHB)
Spymaster’s Coin (CS)
Steal Size (RotD)
Stone Bones (SC)
Stormrunner’s Ward (Stm)
Stretch Weapon (PHB II)
Sure Strike (PHB II)
Surefooted Stride (SC)
Swim (SC)
Swim (Stm)
Tern’s Persistence (Stm)
Turbidity (Stm)
Urchin’s Spines (Stm)
Vertigo (PHB II)
Vision of Entropy (FC I)
Wall of Gloom (SC)
Whirling Blade (SC)
Whispering Wind (PHB)
Wings of Air (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd level
Air Breathing (SC)
Alter Fortune (PHB II)
Amorphous Form (SC)
Analyze Portal (SC)
Animate Weapon (CM)
Anticipate Teleportation (SC)
Antidragon Aura (SC)
Arcane Sight (PHB)
Arms of Plenty (LoM)
Avoid Planar Effects (SC)
Bite of the Wererat (SC)
Blink (PHB)
Circle Dance (SC)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (PHB)
Claws of Darkness (SC)
Cone of Dimness (SC)
Control Temperature (Fr)
Crown of Clarity (PHB II)
Crown of Might (PHB II)
Crown of Protection (PHB II)
Curse of Arrow Attraction (PHB II)
Deceptive Facade (CM)
Deeper Darkvision (SC)
Demon Dirge (SC)
Detect Ship (Stm)
Devil Blight (SC)
Devil’s Eye (FC II)
Diamondsteel (SC)
Disobedience (CS)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Displacement (PHB)
Distilled Joy (BoED)
Dolorous Blow (SC)
Dragonskin (SC)
Earthen Grace (SC)
Energy Aegis (PHB II)
Energy Surge (PHB II)
Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)
Eradicate Earth (SC)
Evard’s Menacing Tentacles (PHB II)
Explosive Runes (PHB)
False Gravity (SC)
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (DM)
Flame Arrow (PHB)
Fly (PHB)
Gaseous Form (PHB)
Giant’s Wrath (SC)
Girallon’s Blessing (SC)
Glacial Globe of Invulnerability (Fr)
Halt (PHB II)
Hamatula Barbs (SC)
Haste (PHB)
Heart of Water (CM)
Hood of the Cobra (CM)
Illusory Script (PHB)
Investiture of the Bearded Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Chain Devil (FC II)
Invisibility Sphere (PHB)
Karmic Backlash (CM)
Keen Edge (PHB)
Least Dragonshape (DM)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB II)
Magic Circle against (alignment) (PHB)
Magic Weapon, Greater (PHB)
Major Image (PHB)
Mask of the Ideal (CM)
Mighty Wallop, Greater (RotD)
Nondetection (PHB)
Pall of Twilight (CM)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Phantasmal Strangler (CM)
Phantom Guardians (RoD)
Primal Form (SC)
Protection from Dessication (Snd)
Protection from Energy (PHB)
Repair Serious Damage (SC)
Repelling Shield (CM)
Resist Taint (HoH)
Reverse Arrows (SC)
Rust Ray (SC)
Secret Page (PHB)
Sense of the Dragon (RotD)
Shadow Binding (SC)
Shadow Cache (SC)
Shadow Phase (SC)
Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM)
Shrink Item (PHB)
Sign of Sealing (SC)
Siphon (CS)
Slow (PHB)
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass (SC)
Spectral Weapon (SC)
Spell Vulnerability (SC)
Spider Form (DU)
Spiderskin (SC)
Steeldance (SC)
Stony Grasp (SC)
Suspended Silence (SC)
Telepathic Bond, Lesser (SC)
Tenacious Dispelling (CM)
Tongues (PHB)
Tremorsense (SC)
Undulant Innards (LoM)
Unicorn Horn (CM)
Unluck (SC)
Vertigo Field (PHB II)
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM)
Walk the Mountain's Path (RoS)
Wand Modulation (CS)
Water Breathing (PHB)
Water to Acid (Stm)
Weapon of Energy (SC)
Weapon of Impact (SC)
Whispering Sand (Snd)
Wingblast (DM)

4th level
Aerial Alacrity (RotW)
Alliance Undone (EoE)
Arcane Eye (PHB)
Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM)
Assay Spell Resistance (SC)
Attune Form (SC)
Backlash (SC)
Baleful Blink (PHB II)
Bite of the Werewolf (SC)
Blinding Breath (SC)
Call of Stone (PHB II)
Celerity (PHB II)
Condemnation (PHB II)
Corporeal Instability (SC)
Crown of Veils (PHB II)
Darkvision, Mass (SC)
Detect Scrying (PHB)
Dimensional Anchor (PHB)
Disguise Ship (Stm)
Dispelling Screen (SC)
Displacer Form (SC)
Enduring Flight (RotW)
Enlarge Person, Mass (PHB)
Entangling Staff (SC)
Fire Stride (SC)
Fire Trap (PHB)
Flame Whips (SC)
Flight of the Dragon (SC)
Forceward (SC)
Friendly Fire (EoE)
Fuse Sand (Snd)
Glacial Ward (Fr)
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (PHB)
Hallucinatory Terrain (PHB)
Heart of Earth (CM)
Ice Shield (Fr)
Illusory Wall (PHB)
Investiture of the Amnizu (FC II)
Investiture of the Erinyes (FC II)
Investiture of the Harvester Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Steel Devil (FC II)
Invisibility, Greater (PHB)
Iron Bones (SC)
Know Vulnerabilities (SC)
Locate Creature (PHB)
Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM)
Metal Melt (SC)
Mirror Image, Greater (PHB II)
Nightmare Terrain (CM)
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CM)
Passage of the Shifting Sands (DM)
Perfect Summons (BoED)
Perinarch (SC)
Phantasmal Killer (PHB)
Phantom Battle (PHB II)
Polymorph (PHB)
Portal Alarm, Improved (SC)
Rainbow Pattern (PHB)
Raise from the Deep (SC)
Ray Deflection (SC)
Ray of Deanimation (SC)
Rebirth of Iron (CM)
Reduce Person, Mass (PHB)
Remove Curse (PHB)
Repair Critical Damage (SC)
Resist Energy, Mass (SC)
Resistance, Greater (SC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SC)
Rusted Blade (CM)
Sandform (Snd)
Scramble Portal (SC)
Scrying (PHB)
Sensory Deprivation (SC)
Shadow Conjuration (PHB)
Shadow Well (SC)
Sharptooth (SC)
Slashing Dispel (PHB II)
Spell Enhancer (SC)
Stifle Spell (PHB II)
Stone Shape (PHB)
Stoneskin (PHB)
Touch of the Blackened Soul (DM)
Treasure Scent (SC)
Trollshape (PHB II)
Voice of the Dragon (SC)
Wall of (alignment) (SC)
Wings of Air, Greater (SC)

5th level
Airy Water (Stm)
Animal Growth (PHB)
Anticold Sphere (SC)
Antifire Sphere (Snd)
Baleful Polymorph (PHB)
Bite of the Wereboar (SC)
Blink, Greater (SC)
Break Enchantment (PHB)
Breath Weapon Substitution (SC)
Contact Other Plane (PHB)
Contingent Energy Resistance (SC)
Dance of Blades (PHB II)
Dismissal (PHB)
Dispel Water (Snd)
Dispelling Breath (SC)
Draconic Might (SC)
Draconic Polymorph (SC)
Dragonsight (SC)
Dream (PHB)
Duelward (SC)
Earth Reaver (SC)
Enlarge Person, Greater (SC)
Ethereal Breath (SC)
Etherealness, Swift (PHB II)
Fabricate (PHB)
False Vision (PHB)
Fever Dream (CM)
Field of Resistance (PHB II)
Fiendform (SC)
Flaying Tendrils (CM)
Flesh to Ice (Fr)
Flesh to Salt (Snd)
Flowsight (Stm)
Fly, Mass (SC)
Form of the Desert Hunter (DM)
Form of the Threefold Beast (CM)
Gutsnake (SC)
Heart of Fire (CM)
Ice Shape (Fr)
Ice to Flesh (Fr)
Illusory Feast (SC)
Indomitability (SC)
Investiture of the Narzugon (FC II)
Investiture of the Orthon (FC II)
Ironguard, Lesser (SC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Lord of the Sky (DM)
Lucent Lance (SC)
Mana Flux (PHB II)
Mirage Arcana (PHB)
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (PHB)
Nightmare (PHB)
Nightstalker’s Transformation (SC)
Overland Flight (PHB)
Passwall (PHB)
Persistent Image (PHB)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Planar Tolerance (SC)
Prying Eyes (PHB)
Reciprocal Gyre (SC)
Reduce Person, Greater (SC)
Refusal (SC)
Retributive Image (CM)
Seeming (PHB)
Shadow Evocation (PHB)
Shadow Form (SC)
Shadow Guardians (RoD)
Shadow Hand (SC)
Shadowfade (SC)
Spell Matrix, Lesser (SC)
Spell Theft (CS)
Spider Form, Greater (DU)
Stunning Breath (SC)
Surefooted Stride, Mass (SC)
Symbol of Spell Loss (SC)
Telekinesis (PHB)
Telepathic Bond (PHB)
Telepathy Block (BoED)
Touch of Adamantine (BoED)
Touch of Chaos (EoE)
Transformation of the Deeps (Stm)
Transmute Mud to Rock (PHB)
Transmute Rock to Mud (PHB)
Transmute Sand to Glass (Snd)
Transmute Sand to Stone (Snd)
Transmute Stone to Sand (Snd)
Unearthly Heat (Snd)
Unicorn Blood (CM)
Vanishing Weapon (BoED)
Vulnerability (SC)
Wall of Dispel Magic (SC)
Xorn Movement (SC)
Zone of Peace (Cty)
Zone of Respite (SC)


1st level:
Abjuration
Shield: Very good defensive spell at all levels, Abjurant Champion makes it crazy good.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Not bad spells. With your increased durations, they a lot more interesting.
Karmic Aura (Complete Mage): This spell only requires a swift action to be cast (so it's pretty good even before Abjurant Champion) and while the duration is kinda low (1 round/level) remember you get double that. Creatures that attack you (even ranged attacks count) must save (Will) or be fatigued for 3 rounds. Pretty good, specially while/if you don't get all Abjurations as swift actions anyway.
Divination
Comprehend Languages: It lasts 10 minutes/level... or 20/level for an Arcanamach. Could be a lot useful depending on the campaign. Fits thematically, also... but you have few spells known and this works better on an item.
True Strike: +20 to a single attack roll can be pretty useful (specially if paired with a big weapon and Power Attack), but there are better spells out there.
Identify: This spell is obviously useful, but you are not the primary spellcaster. I think it's wise to avoid it - somebody else on the party can do this.
Combat Readiness (Drow of the Underdark): A insight bonus to initiative (CL/3, max +6) and immunity to falnking. Not too shabby.
True Casting (Complete Mage): Never worry about Spell Resistance again... that is, if you are casting spells at enemies at all. Illusion
Color Spray: Usually pretty good at low levels... except you only get it at level 8. I'd avoid it.
Silent Image: Pretty versatile.
Instant Diversion (Races of the Dragon): This spell can be cast a swift action. It's basically a one round Mirror Image and could be a lifesaver.
Transmutation:
Enlarge Person: Bigger, badder and better. This is one of the best low-level buffs and you get it on extended duration.
Expeditious Retreat: Sometimes you just need to RUN. A speed bonus also allows you to position yourself better, though this spell is probably better on items.
Feather Fall: Always useful, but really do you need it? It's probably better on an item as well. You have few spells known slots.
Nerveskitter (Spell Compendium): Immediate casting, +5 to initiative. One of the better 1st level spells around for sure. Get this.
Mighty Wallop (Races of the Dragon): Not too shabby - just something for you to have fun while you wait for this spell's big brother...

2nd level
Transmutation
Alter Self: This spell is broken. Period. It can improve both your defense and your attack quite easily with no side effects other than looking really weird.
Essence of the Dragon (Races of the Dragon): Really, immunity to sleep and paralysis can be pretty good by itself and this spell has a duration measured in minutes. The thing here is that your type changes to dragon, allowing a lot more versatility with Alter Self. Probably not worth spending a spell known on this, though.

4th level
Transmutation
Polymorph: I wouldn't go there. Polymorph is so broken Wizards of the Coast officially gave up on it and pretended it never existed. If you can get it, though, you'll be very powerful... and you'll have a lot of bookwork to do as well.
Trollshape (Spell Compendium): This advice comes from our friend Keld Denar.
SpC has Trollshape, another 4th level spell with the [Polymorph] subtype. Not only is it kinda a fun spell (you gain regen!) and a fun one to cast on your familiar (attack gerbal trollform GOOOOOO), it allows you to activate Minor Shapeshift. That and Greater Mirror Image are 2 of the MOST important 4th level spells ANY Suel Arcanamach should learn, bar none.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:21 PM
reserved for posting

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 05:25 PM
Vanilla Straight Suel - Human Duskblade 3/Warblade 7/Suel Arcanamach 10

Suel Weaver by Surreal (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=877773) - the build that inspired this handbook in the first place

Martial Suel (by Vitellio) 7 Warblade/4 Suel/5 Abjurant Champion/1 Spellsword/ +3 warblade
Would be a pretty good Tank/light gish. with 15 initiator levels, 20% Spell failure reduction, making a mithral twilight fullplate+ Heavy mithral shield a possible choice, 19/20 BaB, 5th level Suel casting and 12+9d12+5d8+5d10 hp.

Green Star Arcanamach by Howland Reed
WARNING: Green Star Adept's caster level increases is highly controversial. Use with care.
Paladin2/Duskblade2/Warblade2/Suel Arcanamach4/Abjurant Champion2/Green Star Adept8 BAB +17, casting as 10th Arcanamach (CL = 14), +4 Str and Natural AC (with -2 Dex), Extended Abjuration AND Spellstrength, Quickened Abjurations, Divine Grace, DR 9/adamantine, some nifty abilities from being a living green statue...and probably the weirdest fluff requirements ever. But if your DM is willing to work with you, I think it'd be fun. (btw, I don't like the last level of GSA because it sucks to lose normal healing. While 75% fortification is nice, I left it off because I wanted to squeeze 2 levels of Abj Champion...personal preferences)

The Suel Man by Felonious Ela
Illumian Duskblade 3/Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/SuArc 1/Abjurant Champion 5/SuArc +3/Spellsword 1/Dragon Disciple 4
Lion Totem variant for Barbarian 1 (pounce)
Cityscape variant for Fighter levels (Tumble class skill)
Aeshkrau for Str based build(benefits even more from Dragon Disciple), Uurkrau for Dex based builds for your Illumian sigils.
Tons of open feats (Enough feats for a great charger or a great TWFer...maybe even both.) CL20, BAB 18, great HD, full SuArc casting + bonus spells Illumian Race: Offsets need for Practiced Spellcaster if you want CL 20, reduces MAD, lets Ancient Suloise be a bonus language!!!!, and probably grants access to the Grimoire Arcanamacha due to the Illumian race's obsession with collecting and storing books. Favored class Any is also nice.

Sublime Arcanamach
Duskblade 2/Paladin (Harmonious Knight) 4/Suel Arcanamach 4/Virtuoso 2/Sublime Chord 2/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5
Uses Harmonious Knight substitution level to gain Perform as a class skill, Virtuoso to gain bardic music and Suel Arcanamach to gain 3rd level spells - and then qualifies for Sublime Chord, advancing it's casting with Virtuoso, Spellsword and Abjurant Champion. 9th level spells, BAB 16. Perhaps it's just a needlessly complicated gish, but I like it. ^^

Shooting Star Arcanamach
DelkyrHald-Blood Ranger 5/Cyran Avenger 5/Suel Arcanamach 4/Abjurant Champion 5/Impure Prince 1
Yes, stuff from three settings! ^^ This build has a lot of charisma synergy going on and uses Shooting Star Ranger for extra ownage. BAB 19 and lots of skill points complement it quite well. Take the Dungeonscape sub and you can even be a triple threat.

I'm so pretty, you can't hit me Abusing Charisma synergy (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=987165)

Nasty Arcanamach by InnaBinder
Ranger 2/Duskblade 3/Warblade 2/Suel Arcanamach 6/Impure Prince 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 2 Feats: Combat Casting, Iron Will, Track, TWF, Symbiont Mastery, Fell Drain, Multiattack, Knowledge Devotion, Explosive Spell, Spontaneous Summoner. Maneuvers: Wall of Blades, Iron Heart Surge, Iron Heart Endurance, Stone Vise, Hunter's Sense, Claw at the Moon.

Mystic Arcanamach Mystic Ranger 10/Suel Arcanamach 10
This build has a lot going on. BAB 17, 5th level arcane and divine spells, only two required feats and all. Take the trapfinding variant and you are a quadruple threat. Arcanamach is finished instead of going Abjurant Champion for more skill points; arcane spell selection should emphasize swift action buffs even more than usual. Sword of Arcane Order feat allows you to get arcane spells arcanamachs aren't usually allowed to.

Mounted Arcanamach by Idle Muse
Desert Elf
Swashbuckler 1/Paladin 5/Suel Archanamach 4/Swiftblade 9/Elocator 1

ACFs & Sub.levels
- Paladin of Freedom (Aura of Courage->Aura of Resolve)
- Harmonious Knight lvl1 (Detect Evil->Inspire Courage)
- Lion Legionnaire lvl4 (Turn Undead->Wild Fighting)
- Mystic Fire Knight lvl5 (Disrupt Spellcasting when smiting)
- Holy Warrior (Spells->Feat)

Feats (!bonus, -flaw, &DragonMag)
1| Aereni Focus (Spellcraft), Expeditious Dodge, Hidden Talent (Burst), !Weapon Finesse, -Shaky, -Weak Will
3| Iron Will
5| !Mounted Combat
6| Combat Casting
9| Mobility
11| !Spring Attack
12| &Theurgic Mount
15| Mounted Casting
17| !Bounding Assault
18| Rapid Blitz
20| !Sidestep Charge

(32pt buy)
STR 10 (12 base, -2 race)
DEX 18 (16 base, +2 race)
CON 10 (10 base)
INT 15 (14 base, +1 lvl)
WIS 8 (8 base)
CHA 20 (16 base, +4 lvl)

BAB +19/+14/+9/+4

Fort +15 (+2+4+1+3+0 base, +0 con, +5 divine grace)
Refx +22 (+0+1+4+6+2 base, +4 dex, +5 divine grace)
Will +16 (+0+1+4+6+2 base, -1 wis, -3 flaw, +2 feat, +5 divine grace)

Mount - Equivalent of Paladin lvl 18 (full abilities)

SKills I haven't done, but it definitely is possible to qualify on time for the PrCs

Equipment I haven't done, mostly because it should be fairly easy to pick up the obvious stuff, nothing special needed really, aside from Mount items.

A bit of explanation on several bits here:
- Desert Elf: Is an elf (for Aereni Focus), and has a nice Ride bonus.
- Many Paladin substitution levels: Nice for optimisation, and creates (if you want), a flavouful backstory where this young elf turns to religion, but cannot find a deity (and organisation) that fits his particular brand of Psionic power mixed with interest in Spellcraft. Eventually he find the Grimoire and becomes a Mounted Archanamach.
- Spring Attack line: This build is a lot more synergistic (and was designed) with the assumption that you can Spring Attack on a horse. This largely (although not entirely) duplicates the ability of Ride-By-Attack, and is difficult to back up with RAW, but it's something that is flavourful in this build, and could easily be DM-passed.
- Wild Fighting: Valuable with Swiftblade abuse, since you can Full Attack and still move.

Further Options for Optimisation:
- Iron Will can be obtained for free from the Otyugh Hole if it exists, which I haven't assumed here.
- Elocator and Hidden Talent can be swapped out for something else if necessary; getting Iron Will for free as above and removing Hidden Talent removes the need for Flaws, if they're not allowed. Replacing Elocator with a Full-BAB class gives you FULL BAB at lvl20, pretty good even for a Gish. NOTE: Swiftblade 10 (the logical option) is more or less useless in this build; no 6th-level spell slots means the capstone is useless, and the speed boost is mostly irrelevant when mounted. This level could also be used if you want to play an LA+1 race.
- Arcane Strike is good feat for this build, and could take the slot of Hidden Talent if you're not going into Elocator at lvl20 (obviously you need to shuffle things down a bit so you take it in a slot where you qualify).
- I have switched out the Paladin's spells for simplicity here. It is entirely possible to play a more Theurgic build by switching the first level back to Paladin and taking some more magicy substitution levels (Mystic Fire Knight?). Taking some late levels of a theurgic class could get you 2nd level divine spells, although I don't particularly think this is worth it, Paladin casting just isn't good enough.
- I wanted a horse-like Mount for this character, but if you want to fly, then the pre-Suel levels can be replaced with [Anything Full BAB 5/Moonsea Skysentinel 1]. I considered Soulborn for those first 5, because it frees up a couple of feats off your build (You get a bonus feat which can be used to take Midnight Dodge, and Soulborns have Spellcraft as a class skill), which is enough to play sans-flaws if necessary.
- Alternatively, you can just remove the entire mount focus, meaning you've got 6 free levels to play around with at the front of the build. Warblade 6, if you want that flavour of cheese.

The heavy-opt version with a +1 template is probably something like a:
Fire-Souled Lesser Aasimar Soulborn 5/Moonsea Skysentinel/Suel Archanamach 4/Swiftblade 9

Greenish
2010-07-10, 06:37 PM
Silver Smite is a pretty poor feat, I should think. +1d6 damage just with the Smite attack (which you can't use more than a few times a day even if you burn another feat for Extra Smite) just isn't worth it.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 06:50 PM
Silver Smite is a pretty poor feat, I should think. +1d6 damage just with the Smite attack (which you can't use more than a few times a day even if you burn another feat for Extra Smite) just isn't worth it.

It is an OK feat if you really want to focus on smiting, though, which is what I said in the guide. It's not extraordinary or anything, but +1d6 for a feat in a not-so-specific situation is pretty good, on par with Deadly Defense.

Greenish
2010-07-10, 07:05 PM
It is an OK feat if you really want to focus on smiting, though, which is what I said in the guide. It's not extraordinary or anything, but +1d6 for a feat in a not-so-specific situation is pretty good, on par with Deadly Defense.Well, it's not like Deadly Defense would be so good. (Or Rapid Assault, which is similar.)

I certainly wouldn't include it on a list that omits, for example, Craven or Martial Study/Stance.

[Edit]: Giving Imp. Smiting and Awesome Smite red while describing Silver Smite as "really good" also strikes odd to me. Awesome Smite in particular will yield much better results than Silver Smite in many situations.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 07:11 PM
Well, it's not like Deadly Defense would be so good. (Or Rapid Assault, which is similar.)

I certainly wouldn't include it on a list that omits, for example, Craven or Martial Study/Stance.

Craven is not mentioned because most of the classes the handbook is geared towards don't have sneak attack. Only Spellthief gets it. I also personally dislike the feat ('oh, look, I tremble in fear, so I hit harder') so I chose to avoid it.
Martial Study/Stance is not even mentioned because if you have access to ToB you really should take levels in Crusader or Warblade for an arcanamach, simple as that.
About Deadly Defense, it's a matter of opinion. It gets pretty good in a build that uses Combat Expertise anyway.



[Edit]: Giving Imp. Smiting and Awesome Smite red while describing Silver Smite as "really good" also strikes odd to me. Awesome Smite in particular will yield much better results than Silver Smite in many situations.
Well, not THAT is a point. ^^
I only looked at Silver Smite within the smite-focused environment but did not do the same for the others. OK, you got me - Silver Smite is going red.

Greenish
2010-07-10, 07:18 PM
Craven is not mentioned because most of the classes the handbook is geared towards don't have sneak attack. Only Spellthief gets it. I also personally dislike the feat ('oh, look, I tremble in fear, so I hit harder') so I chose to avoid it.And "oh look, I'm a racist so I hit very slightly harder a handful of times per day against certain enemies" is so much better? : Also, 1 level dip to SA fighter gets you SA without losing BAB, with somewhat decent skills with Thug variant
Martial Study/Stance is not even mentioned because if you have access to ToB you really should take levels in Crusader or Warblade for an arcanamach, simple as that.I do feel they deserve a shout out, especially when, as you say, the builds aren't very feat-starved. They work excellently in conjunction with multiclass martial adepts.
About Deadly Defense, it's a matter of opinion. It gets pretty good in a build that uses Combat Expertise anyway.Using Combat Expertise and finessable weapons while wearing light or no armour… Yeah, sure, that'll come up often. (And 1d6 extra damage, woohoo!)

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 07:22 PM
Using Combat Expertise and finessable weapons while wearing light or no armour… Yeah, sure, that'll come up often. (And 1d6 extra damage, woohoo!)

I'm a huge fan of TWF and finessable weapons, so I mind'em all the time. I also wrote this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866290/A_short_guide_to_defensive_fighting&post_num=3), so I don't tend to underestimate defensive fighting.

I'll add Martial Study/Stance once I get to a maneuver section. Craven, yeah, I think I really should make a note on Craven, as much as I hate it.

Btw, where is Rapid Assault from?

Greenish
2010-07-10, 07:34 PM
I'm a huge fan of TWF and finessable weapons, so I mind'em all the time. I also wrote this (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19866290/A_short_guide_to_defensive_fighting&post_num=3), so I don't tend to underestimate defensive fighting.I'm not seeing where the offensive power of a finesse & defense focused arcanamach comes, and as has been said, you can't win the rocket tag without a rocket.

I'll add Martial Study/Stance once I get to a maneuver section. Craven, yeah, I think I really should make a note on Craven, as much as I hate it.Your own quote: "+1 bonus to AC while fighting defensively. You can't be immune to fear and you suffer -2 on saves vs fear. It's worth it, I guess." Well, I guess that adding your character level to damage when the attacks qualify for SA is worth it.

Btw, where is Rapid Assault from?Tome of Battle. +1d6 damage on all attacks on the first round of the combat. At least you qualify for it in every combat. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 07:42 PM
I'm not seeing where the offensive power of a finesse & defense focused arcanamach comes, and as has been said, you can't win the rocket tag without a rocket.
It's not like arcanamachs can even play rocket tag with the grown ups. And of course, your offensive power come from buffs.
You could make an arcanamach with feats geared toward defense and rely on Greater Mighty Wallop, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage and similar spells to increase your damage output. It's just an option. If I listed only the offensive feats I don't think this would even qualify as a handbook.


Your own quote: "+1 bonus to AC while fighting defensively. You can't be immune to fear and you suffer -2 on saves vs fear. It's worth it, I guess." Well, I guess that adding your character level to damage when the attacks qualify for SA is worth it.
I never said Craven is a bad feat, just that I dislike it. Dodging better because you are afraid makes sense to me; doing more damage does not. I'll even quote myself from a few posts behind:

Craven, yeah, I think I really should make a note on Craven, as much as I hate it.


Tome of Battle. +1d6 damage on all attacks on the first round of the combat. At least you qualify for it in every combat. :smalltongue:
Well, if you have Deadly Defense you will be fighting at Combat Expertise mode all the time anyway.

Thurbane
2010-07-10, 07:42 PM
Couple of things maybe worth noting (I don't think have been mentioned):

Tooth of Savnok (magic item from ToM, unslotted, 2000gp) allows you to ignore movement penalties from armor and loads, much like a Dwarf. Nice if you want to use your Tumble in armor heavier than light (also good for full movement rate in plate etc.).

Bloodline Feats from the Dragon Magazine Compendium add an extra spell known per level. Earth Bloodline gets some semi-decent spells for a Gish type.

Keld Denar
2010-07-10, 07:42 PM
A guide should be impartial, or at least close to it. Objectively, Craven is a strong feat given how easy it is to qualify for it, and how much power it gives. If you don't like it, fine, state that, but not listing it because you don't like it is bad guidemaking practice, IMO.

Greenish
2010-07-10, 07:50 PM
You could make an arcanamach with feats geared toward defense and rely on Greater Mighty Wallop, Ferocity of Sanguine Rage and similar spells to increase your damage output.Even then, Deadly Defense would be rather minimal improvement for a feat, which is my point.
It's just an option. If I listed only the offensive feats I don't think this would even qualify as a handbook.Nit-pick: you haven't listed Deadly Defense on the feats list. :smalltongue:

Well, if you have Deadly Defense you will be fighting at Combat Expertise mode all the time anyway.If you can afford the loss to hit. And if you can afford to lose to-hit, PA gives better returns and is multiplied on crits.

true_shinken
2010-07-10, 07:59 PM
If you can afford the loss to hit. And if you can afford to lose to-hit, PA gives better returns and is multiplied on crits.
Power Attack can't be used with light weapons and works poorly with TWF. But this is not really about Deadly Defense, is it? I don't want to sidetrack the thread much. I thank you a lot for your suggestions and I will add Craven to the feat list soon, but we should take this debate elsewhere.
EDIT: Just added it.

balistafreak
2010-07-10, 11:06 PM
I'm reading through this handbook, and while it's a great effort, there's one thing that I'm going to say that's going to sound painful:

Cut a lot of it.

Yes, I know it's your baby, but to be frank there's some of it that frankly isn't needed. There are a LOT of "good if you're going for this, take something else otherwise" feats and prestige classes that you don't need to list, like Combat Expertise and Improved Shield Bash.

A Handbook should focus on:


Choices that are "necessary" for the goal to function properly (Entangling Exhalation on a Dragonfire Adept)
Choices that are "good" but up to player choice (Incanatrix on a Wizard)
Choices that are "bad" but not obviously so (your pointing out of Extra Spell not working)


By listing choices that are "okay if you're going for this" or "always bad in any situation, even other classes/builds", you dilute the handbook and reduce its quality. Imagine if your factory machine manual, in addition to explaining how to turn it on and why you shouldn't use it to cut aluminum (what MUST be done to use it, something subtle that isn't obvious of how NOT to use it) also listed what colors you could paint it in the middle of these sections. It'd be confusing.

You can put these "optional" choices in another section, but to list them together with everything else is confusing.

That being said, most of what's in there is pretty good. Keep up the good work, and remember: don't be afraid to take suggestions!

Private-Prinny
2010-07-11, 12:38 AM
Must... fight... Grammar... Nazism...

I can't do it. It's "Strength", not "Strenght."

IdleMuse
2010-07-11, 01:18 AM
Is it worth mentioning Aereni Focus and/or Keeper of the Forbidden Lore? Two feats (PGtE and FCI respectively) that grant you Spellcraft as a class skill, allowing you to qualify 'on time' with most full-bab noncasters.

balistafreak
2010-07-11, 01:35 AM
Must... fight... Grammar... Nazism...

I can't do it. It's "Strength", not "Strenght."

Know your English, fool! It's Spelling, not Grammar!

Ten lashes!

true_shinken
2010-07-11, 09:40 AM
That being said, most of what's in there is pretty good. Keep up the good work, and remember: don't be afraid to take suggestions!
Thanks for your suggestions. I think I might cut some of it and/or make a section on focused builds (listing what feats are best for shield-focused Arcanamachs, TWF focused ones, and so on). Should make reading less convoluted.

jiriku
2010-07-11, 10:18 AM
I would encourage you to add more formatting, including large, bold headings and more space between different sections. My first impression visually was that the guide was a dense wall of text with very few tools to help me locate a particular section if I need to refer back to it. This is especially true towards the back half of the guide.

true_shinken
2010-07-11, 10:44 AM
Is it worth mentioning Aereni Focus and/or Keeper of the Forbidden Lore? Two feats (PGtE and FCI respectively) that grant you Spellcraft as a class skill, allowing you to qualify 'on time' with most full-bab noncasters.

Keeper of the Forbidden Lore was mentioned back in 339 also, but I don't have access to Fiendish Codex I, sadly. Could you perhaps tell me the requirements and the exact benefits?

IdleMuse
2010-07-11, 11:21 AM
Keeper of the Forbidden Lore was mentioned back in 339 also, but I don't have access to Fiendish Codex I, sadly. Could you perhaps tell me the requirements and the exact benefits?

Keeper of the Forbidden Lore is an Abyssal Heritor feat, requires Int 13, and gives you a bonus to Knowledge (The Planes), Spellcraft, and bardic knowledge equal to the number of Abyssal Heritor feats you know. In addition, Knowledge (The Planes) and Spellcraft are always class skills for you, and can be used untrained. You also take a -2 penalty on Gather Info.

Being a Abyssal Heritor feat means it has a minor minor minor additional drawback, in that if you get second such feat, you are locked into being chaotic. Woo.

Aereni Focus is nicer, IMO, it's just skill focus that requires you to be an Elf, that also makes the skill a class skill.

If you're interesting in more builds, I have a Suel/Swiftblade one that's pretty fun, although it relies on some assumptions about how Spring Attack and mounts work, and has one Dragon Magazine feat.

true_shinken
2010-07-11, 12:04 PM
If you're interesting in more builds, I have a Suel/Swiftblade one that's pretty fun, although it relies on some assumptions about how Spring Attack and mounts work, and has one Dragon Magazine feat.

Thanks a lot, added it to the handbook. I'd love to see your build!

IdleMuse
2010-07-11, 02:07 PM
Thanks a lot, added it to the handbook. I'd love to see your build!

Desert Elf
Swashbuckler 1/Paladin 5/Suel Archanamach 4/Swiftblade 9/Elocator 1

ACFs & Sub.levels
- Paladin of Freedom (Aura of Courage->Aura of Resolve)
- Harmonious Knight lvl1 (Detect Evil->Inspire Courage)
- Lion Legionnaire lvl4 (Turn Undead->Wild Fighting)
- Mystic Fire Knight lvl5 (Disrupt Spellcasting when smiting)
- Holy Warrior (Spells->Feat)

Feats (!bonus, -flaw, &DragonMag)
1| Aereni Focus (Spellcraft), Expeditious Dodge, Hidden Talent (Burst), !Weapon Finesse, -Shaky, -Weak Will
3| Iron Will
5| !Mounted Combat
6| Combat Casting
9| Mobility
11| !Spring Attack
12| &Theurgic Mount
15| Mounted Casting
17| !Bounding Assault
18| Rapid Blitz
20| !Sidestep Charge

(32pt buy)
STR 10 (12 base, -2 race)
DEX 18 (16 base, +2 race)
CON 10 (10 base)
INT 15 (14 base, +1 lvl)
WIS 8 (8 base)
CHA 20 (16 base, +4 lvl)

BAB +19/+14/+9/+4

Fort +15 (+2+4+1+3+0 base, +0 con, +5 divine grace)
Refx +22 (+0+1+4+6+2 base, +4 dex, +5 divine grace)
Will +16 (+0+1+4+6+2 base, -1 wis, -3 flaw, +2 feat, +5 divine grace)

Mount - Equivalent of Paladin lvl 18 (full abilities)

SKills I haven't done, but it definitely is possible to qualify on time for the PrCs

Equipment I haven't done, mostly because it should be fairly easy to pick up the obvious stuff, nothing special needed really, aside from Mount items.

A bit of explanation on several bits here:
- Desert Elf: Is an elf (for Aereni Focus), and has a nice Ride bonus.
- Many Paladin substitution levels: Nice for optimisation, and creates (if you want), a flavouful backstory where this young elf turns to religion, but cannot find a deity (and organisation) that fits his particular brand of Psionic power mixed with interest in Spellcraft. Eventually he find the Grimoire and becomes a Mounted Archanamach.
- Spring Attack line: This build is a lot more synergistic (and was designed) with the assumption that you can Spring Attack on a horse. This largely (although not entirely) duplicates the ability of Ride-By-Attack, and is difficult to back up with RAW, but it's something that is flavourful in this build, and could easily be DM-passed.
- Wild Fighting: Valuable with Swiftblade abuse, since you can Full Attack and still move.

Further Options for Optimisation:
- Iron Will can be obtained for free from the Otyugh Hole if it exists, which I haven't assumed here.
- Elocator and Hidden Talent can be swapped out for something else if necessary; getting Iron Will for free as above and removing Hidden Talent removes the need for Flaws, if they're not allowed. Replacing Elocator with a Full-BAB class gives you FULL BAB at lvl20, pretty good even for a Gish. NOTE: Swiftblade 10 (the logical option) is more or less useless in this build; no 6th-level spell slots means the capstone is useless, and the speed boost is mostly irrelevant when mounted. This level could also be used if you want to play an LA+1 race.
- Arcane Strike is good feat for this build, and could take the slot of Hidden Talent if you're not going into Elocator at lvl20 (obviously you need to shuffle things down a bit so you take it in a slot where you qualify).
- I have switched out the Paladin's spells for simplicity here. It is entirely possible to play a more Theurgic build by switching the first level back to Paladin and taking some more magicy substitution levels (Mystic Fire Knight?). Taking some late levels of a theurgic class could get you 2nd level divine spells, although I don't particularly think this is worth it, Paladin casting just isn't good enough.
- I wanted a horse-like Mount for this character, but if you want to fly, then the pre-Suel levels can be replaced with [Anything Full BAB 5/Moonsea Skysentinel 1]. I considered Soulborn for those first 5, because it frees up a couple of feats off your build (You get a bonus feat which can be used to take Midnight Dodge, and Soulborns have Spellcraft as a class skill), which is enough to play sans-flaws if necessary.
- Alternatively, you can just remove the entire mount focus, meaning you've got 6 free levels to play around with at the front of the build. Warblade 6, if you want that flavour of cheese.

The heavy-opt version with a +1 template is probably something like a:
Fire-Souled Lesser Aasimar Soulborn 5/Moonsea Skysentinel/Suel Archanamach 4/Swiftblade 9

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-11, 02:54 PM
Here's the build I have which incorporates SA...

Sir Noah Whay

Paladin of Tyrrany 3/Hexblade3/Monk2/Suel Archanamach 4/Abjurant Champion5/Uncanny Trickster 3 (Advancing Abjurant Champion).

In effect, he says 'no'. Whatever you are bringing, he simply declines to acquiesce to your request.

2x CHA to all saves, aura which drops opponent saves by -2, Evasion AND Mettle, Wis to AC, Unarmed being the primary damage dealer, and then we get to buffs.

Abjurant Champion + Uncanny Trickster = 4th level Abjuration spells may be quickened. I'm not sure how to increase this, but you'd need another 2 abjurant champion effective levels to get all his Abjuration spells auto-quickened. However, there's some fun 4th level Abjuration spells we can use. The big one from Core, of course, is Dimensional Anchor.

Greater Mirror Image = almost impossible to hit in melee combat.
Mage Armor + Shield = another +18 to AC, before toys
Protection from Good = another +7 Deflection bonus
Greater Mighty Wallop = decent damage output
Wraithstrike. When you absolutely, positively HAVE to hit EVERY TIME...

So right off the bat, we have:

NO to anything allowing a saving throw. It simply won't work, unless you crank your DC's into the 50's.

NO to anything trying to hit in melee. Assuming you get the 1 in 8 chance of actually hitting the RIGHT 'him', you still have to contend with AC in the upper 50's. Even touch spells will have a problem considering his TOUCH AC will be over 30.

He can pick up toys to be immune to situational effects. Ring of Freedom of Movement, for example, or a Scarab of Protection to stop the Enervation Spam. Or simply be a Warforged/Necropolitian and be immune to Enervation Spam. Periapt of proof against poison makes you immune to poison, you're already immune to diseases thanks to Paladin of Tyranny. Monk's Belt + Improved Natural Attack + Greater Mighty Wallop for some pretty nasty damage output. Lesser Cloak of Displacement is good at being immune to sneak attack, plus gives you a decent miss chance.

Feats can be chosen to flavor, depending on what you are facing. Prerequsite feats are pathetically easy to obtain, of course, so you can either go Lockdown with Gatling Tripper cheese, or go Ubercharge with Shock Trooper/Leap Attack. Other options may be found in Tome of Battle. Counter Charge is always nice if you find yourself facing Uberchargers, Shadow Blade/Assassin's Stance if you wish to be a Dex-centric character, Stone Power/Shards of Granite is nice for ignoring DR/Hardness, and of course, Snap Kick for getting more attacks per round. Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes = never get hit by a full attack ever again, as long as you have room to maneuver.

The point of this build is:

1) Never say Die
2) Tell Batman to Piss Off
3) Beat Down/Lockdown machine

Prodan
2010-07-11, 02:56 PM
Mage Armor + Shield = another +18 to AC, before toys
The Complete Mage errata states that Mage Armor should not benefit from the Abjurant Champion ability.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-11, 02:59 PM
The Complete Mage errata states that Mage Armor should not benefit from the Abjurant Champion ability.

Which most people ignore and allow it anyways. However, if your GM is a prick, simply use Luminous Armor instead and get a +21 rather than +18

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 02:59 PM
Don't forget Ray Deflection (SpC). Though I can still hit him with sufficiently metamagicked and uncapped Hail of Stone/Swarm of Crystals.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-11, 03:06 PM
Don't forget Ray Deflection (SpC). Though I can still hit him with sufficiently metamagicked and uncapped Hail of Stone/Swarm of Crystals.

I don't think he's going to be worried about 1d4/level (cap 5d4) damage. Unless you have some way of negating the cap and doing over 200 damage with the spell, it's probably not going to work, since he'll already have a method of ignoring negative levels, so Fell Drain will not be effective.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 03:14 PM
I don't think he's going to be worried about 1d4/level (cap 5d4) damage. Unless you have some way of negating the cap and doing over 200 damage with the spell, it's probably not going to work, since he'll already have a method of ignoring negative levels, so Fell Drain will not be effective.

I do in fact - The Reserves of Strength feat from Dragonlance, which I was referring to. And of course the psionic version has no cap.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 03:16 PM
Alternatively, use orbs, which are not rays.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 03:18 PM
Alternatively, use orbs, which are not rays.

They still require an attack roll, which his heavy deflection touch AC and greater mirror image can screw with.

EDIT: Any reason you're using Monk instead of Battle Dancer? Seems to me that Cha to AC would be better than Wis here, thanks to PoT/Hexblade/Suel.

Or pick up the Ascetic Mage feat.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-11, 04:03 PM
They still require an attack roll, which his heavy deflection touch AC and greater mirror image can screw with.

EDIT: Any reason you're using Monk instead of Battle Dancer? Seems to me that Cha to AC would be better than Wis here, thanks to PoT/Hexblade/Suel.

Or pick up the Ascetic Mage feat.

Evasion is why I grabbed Monk. Well, Evasion + unarmed damage + all three good saves.

And Deflection is a good portion of the touch AC, so you're at least partially correct before you corrected yourself.

Also, IIRC, the feat that uncaps spells also stuns you for a round. So you'd better pray to the dice dieties that you manage to kill me with a measly 1d4/level, because you're not going to survive what comes next.

Doc Roc
2010-07-11, 04:06 PM
Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

The stun is trivially negated, natch, and the feat instead just deals you some small damage that's easily obviated, reduced, or just eaten. You're a caster, you weren't using that health for anything anyway. :)

So my core question is:
What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?

Mongoose87
2010-07-11, 04:16 PM
Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?


Totally my new sig.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-11, 04:21 PM
Race Suggestion: D'hin'ni (Dragon 350)

+2 Dex, -2 Wis, +2 Cha
Small
20' speed
Counts as halfling for feats, PrCs, etc.
60' Darkvision
+1 racial to all saves
+2 racial to thrown weapon and sling attack rolls
+2 racial to Climb, Jump, Listen, Move Silently
Airborne creatures take a -1 penalty to attack/damage on d'hin'ni
SLAs: prestidigitation (at will); gust of wind, whispering wind, wind wall (1/day); CL is equal to ECL, Cha-based saves
Languages: Common, Halfling, Auran
Favored: Sorcerer
LA +1

The Wis penalty doesn't really hurt due to the requirement for Iron Will plus the Arcanamach's good save progression (and the progressions for most entering classes too). Everything else is just amazing. Could even go something like Spellthief 4/Duskblade 3/Arcanamach 10/Magical Trickster 3.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 04:29 PM
As Doc pointed out, stun is pathetically easy to obviate. And since Hail of Stone is 1st-level, I can pile on metamagic like no tomorrow - Empower, Maximize, Twin - if you optimize to be a spellbreaker, it's a must that I'm going to optimize my unbreakable spell. I can always reselect them once you're dead :smalltongue:

The Psion/Wilder can just shower you with Crystals, no cap feat needed, linking in Hustle/Inconstant Location etc. to keep his distance from you. DR is per round, so even if you're protected against slashing damage, they will lacerate you eventually.

Still, you're taking on Tier 1s and 2s, so you should feel proud for having gotten that far in any case.

Amphetryon
2010-07-11, 05:07 PM
So my core question is:
What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun. Where is the line, and why is that line the correct one for all groups?

Prodan
2010-07-11, 05:11 PM
The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun. Where is the line, and why is that line the correct one for all groups?

So let's all play truenamers!

Amphetryon
2010-07-11, 05:23 PM
So let's all play truenamers!
Yes. Clearly that's exactly what I was saying. :smallannoyed:

Private-Prinny
2010-07-11, 05:46 PM
So let's all play truenamers!

*facepalm*

I'm pretty sure his point is that in a group of Tippyverse casters, Suel Arcanamach is subpar, but in a group with a Beguiler, Shugenja, and Warblade, it will be fine.

Every group has their own comfort zone for power level, and there are X number of options that can fit comfortably within it. It's just a matter of where you want to end up.

Edit: Good job with the handbook, BTW. I might link to it once I amass enough resources to publish the Great Big Book of Gishes. Suel Arcanamach doesn't get enough love.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 05:50 PM
Yes. Clearly that's exactly what I was saying. :smallannoyed:
How does your footwear feel now that it has been put on an appendage other than the one it was intended for?

Amphetryon
2010-07-11, 06:52 PM
How does your footwear feel now that it has been put on an appendage other than the one it was intended for?

As if my point were totally missed, basically. This happens.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 07:00 PM
Prodan, I'm really not sure what you're getting at. :smallconfused: The answer to Doc's question is simply "the player feels like being a Suel" - no other reason is necessary.

The point of a handbook is so that players who have already decided "I'm going to give X a try" can find out what kind of cool things they can do within the framework that X provides. Nobody reads a Shugenja handbook if they aren't already interested in being a Shugenja; the same principle applies here.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 07:11 PM
Prodan, I'm really not sure what you're getting at. :smallconfused:

That getting this:

The only problem with this particular line of thinking is it can eventually repeated for every aspect of D&D until we are left with Pun-Pun.

From this:


So my core question is:
What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?

Is unwarranted.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 07:34 PM
The question itself is unwarranted. What can be deemed "worth taking" depends on numerous factors - the options available, the power level of the group, the challenges to be faced, and above all the concept in the mind of the player. It cannot be answered without first answering those. That is, I believe, what Amphetryon was getting at.

If sheer power is the only consideration - then yes, Pun-pun is indeed the only place to stop.

Greenish
2010-07-11, 07:42 PM
The question itself is unwarranted. What can be deemed "worth taking" depends on numerous factors - the options available, the power level of the group, the challenges to be faced, and above all the concept in the mind of the player. It cannot be answered without first answering those. That is, I believe, what Amphetryon was getting at.

If sheer power is the only consideration - then yes, Pun-pun is indeed the only place to stop.Yes, but the question was why to take Suel Arcanamach, specifically?

There are many ways to build gishes, and Arcanamach's abilities aren't that special or shiny.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 07:54 PM
Yes, but the question was why to take Suel Arcanamach, specifically?

There are many ways to build gishes, and Arcanamach's abilities aren't that special or shiny.

Exactly - this leads us right back to the question of what the player wants to do. He may simply want to give the Suel a try, being aware that it is neither the best gish option out there nor the worst.

Akal Saris
2010-07-11, 08:18 PM
Not sure if it was mentioned, but Suel Arcanamach was the subject of a BG Iron Chef challenge. It ended in a 3-way tie between me, Surreal, and another contestant.

Here was my build:

Prospero, Human Crusader 5/Soulborn 1/Suel Arcanamach 6/Master Transmogrifer 8
BAB +14, 5th level spells at CL 15

Feats:
1st hmn: Eschew Materials
1st char: Iron Will
3rd char: Combat Casting
6th char: Martial Stance (Thicket of Blades) (Bo9S)
9th char: Practiced Spellcaster (Suel Arc.) (C. Arc.)
12th char: Combat Reflexes
15th char: Robilar's Gambit (PHB II)
18th char: Defensive Sweep (PHB II)

It's your typical gish/tank character relying on polymorph with Master Transmogrifer to gain a fantastic reach and strength to offset the poor natural BAB.

Keld Denar
2010-07-11, 08:23 PM
One advantage that a Suel has over other Gishy Fishys is that Suels are REALLY hard to dispel. By the time you stack AbjChamp's Martial Arcanist on top of Tenacious Magic and pick up a Ring of Enduring Arcana, you are looking at a dispel DC thats about 10 points higher than your character level. That means that agressive foes are gonna have to roll REALLY high (like, 19-20 if they are lucky), or be totally dispel focused and STILL only have a moderate chance to dispel you.

A Sorcadin doesn't have that advantage.

Plus, the 6ish customizable levels you have before taking Suel is kinda neat. Some combination of Duskblade, Barbarian, Fighter, Warblade, Paladin, Hexblade, etc gets you some nice frontloaded dips that can really synergize with the whole build. You won't get level 9 spells, but you are a gish, and most of the best gish spells are in the 1-5 level range anyway.

Akal Saris
2010-07-11, 08:31 PM
I like the mystic ranger build, by the way. Simple and cool, though I'd probably screw the extra 2 skill points and just go for Abjurant Champion. It's just too good of a gish PrC to resist IMO :P



So my core question is:
What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?

I like PrCs that grant spellcasting over 10 levels, and the Suel falls nicely between Beholder Mage/Ur-Priest stupidity on the one hand, and Blackguard/Assassin fail casting on the other hand.

If you're playing from 1-20, you can start with high BAB classes when they are good (crusader, warblade, etc), then at mid-levels transition into a gish character with very little loss of power. As opposed to starting with 5 levels of wizard, for example, which will rock at high levels, but forces you to play like a wizard for the early levels, which not everyone enjoys.

Personally, I think straight duskblade 20 is probably just as strong and fun as most suel arcanamach builds, but that's not a bad thing.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-11, 08:33 PM
Ring of Evasion means never playing a monk with monk levels again. There is just no reason to dip that stuff. I know we're all about using every part of the buffalo here, but can we just admit that it's inedible?

The stun is trivially negated, natch, and the feat instead just deals you some small damage that's easily obviated, reduced, or just eaten. You're a caster, you weren't using that health for anything anyway. :)

So my core question is:
What makes the Suel Arcanamach worth taking?

There is more to Monk than Evasion, my friend.

True, it is a coarse and gritty substance, which requires a great deal of expertise in properly preparing, but there are times where it can be used without detriment.

Case in point: the use to which I have just placed it.

I use every aspect of the Monk2 dip. Even Flurry of Blows, that most rancid of ill-fit cuts.

You see, first off, Sir Noah uses unarmed attacks as his primary method of assault. And the singular advantage of monk unarmed strikes is that none of them are considered 'off-handed', and may be Power Attacked with. Thus, with Flurry + Snap Kick, he's dishing out a decent number of attacks per round. Plus, with a simple enhancement, any weapon may be treated as a monk weapon for flurry purposes, effectively a cheaper version of Haste which stacks with Haste. So he can two-hand a weapon, such as a Spiked Chain, and proceed to Ubercharge with the best of them.

Using the Overwhelming Assault style, we get both Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush, which lets him get into Shock Trooper much easier, with less of a Feat Investment, which is always a good thing.

Wis bonus to AC is good, because it gives you another stat which you can use. Many complain about MAD, which is, to a certain degree, true. However, there is a certain economy in a Belt of Magnificence, if you truly utilize all six stats. However, quite simply, you aren't using Wis. With Ascetic Mage, you are instead using Charisma, which you have already gotten a pile of saves, you may as well get AC from it as well.

Saves, my friend, are Sir Noah's primary defense against Batman and his ilk And with a two-level dip, we get a +3 to all three of them. Not worth it by itself, but certainly adds a full, robust flavor to the overall concoction.

And we get to Evasion. However, fingers are precious things. A ring may well solve this problem, but is it the best thing to do when you may only have two? We've already dedicated one to Freedom of Movement. Dare we use the other for Evasion, and close all options? What about a Ring of Spell-Battle so that he will know whom is casting what on whom, and possibly redirect spells to a somewhat more... beneficial location? Like that Hail of Stones spell which was mentioned previously... would be much better placed over the head of the offending mage, rather than potentially harm Noah. Or a Ring of Counterspells, since, as you said, it IS only a 1st level spell.

So as you can see, the two-level dip in Monk is not merely for Evasion, although it is still, in my opinion that it would be less painful than to waste a ring slot on it, but it incorporates every bit of what the class has to offer, and leverages each part in ways which far surpasses the class itself.

terry
2010-07-12, 12:22 AM
No Eunuch Warlock?

No pain no gain. :smallwink:

Optimystik
2010-07-12, 12:25 AM
No Eunuch Warlock?

No pain no gain. :smallwink:

There's not a single PrC in OA I'd give up my grapes to enter.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 02:14 AM
I'm satisfied, Schneeky, with your use of monk as being among the highest uses of monk. I respect your work, though it is often... very bizarre. :)

Allow me to stretch my terrible skills.

Gentlemen, when we are hard to dispel, what ought we do?
That is correct. We ought to persist our spells.

I give you.... contingent on the preparation and delivery of a drum-roll.

Mr. Tambourine
Crusader 6/Suel Arcanamach 2/Spelldancer 2/Arcanamach 6
Arcane Disciple(War)
Sandals of the Vagabond

Go read spelldancer. I'll wait right here.
We'll probably need to use one of the Apprentice feats to sneak into SArc, though we might be able to get away with just aerenial focus and some cross-classing. I considered using kensai+lend BAB+Schism+Level Drain Shuffle, but that's probably too far, right?


Right?

Greenish
2010-07-12, 02:31 AM
Mr. Tambourine
Crusader 6/Suel Arcanamach 2/Spelldancer 2/Arcanamach 6
Arcane Disciple(War)
Sandals of the VagabondI'm not sure 8 levels of SArc are necessary. 3 will get the dispel resistance and the extended buffs (though if you persist everything…). Abjurant Champion would at least offer full BAB for 5 levels with full casting progression.

We'll probably need to use one of the Apprentice feats to sneak into SArc, though we might be able to get away with just aerenial focus and some cross-classing.There was an Abyssal Heritor feat mentioned that gives you Spellcraft as a class skill. None of the printed mentors in DMG II have it, I seem to recall.
Right?No such thing as overkill.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 02:34 AM
No such thing as overkill.
Only "Open fire," and "I need to reload."

I agree that it's probably too much Arcanamach, but my feelings on how much is enough are :: laughing :: known already. So I think five is a nice compromise, probably. Abj Champ seems like a good swap it.

::Edit::
SArc is only medium BaB? Oh god. 4 levels then.

Renegade Paladin
2010-07-12, 02:38 AM
Craven is not mentioned because most of the classes the handbook is geared towards don't have sneak attack. Only Spellthief gets it. I also personally dislike the feat ('oh, look, I tremble in fear, so I hit harder') so I chose to avoid it.
And... if you were in any way correct about what the feat actually does, you'd have a point. You don't hit harder because you're quaking in fear; Craven simply emphasizes that the character is a backstabbing coward. The bonus damage is in no way linked to whether or not the character is afraid at the time. :smallconfused:

Fax Celestis
2010-07-12, 09:40 AM
What are people's thoughts on a DFI Bard entrance into Arcanamach? Maybe Bard 7/Arcanamach 3/Knight Phantom 10 and use your KP progression to further your Arcanamach casting? You'd have to do some shenanigans to get your martial weapons, but that's certainly doable. no you wouldn't, bards get longsword, rapier, sap, shortsword, and whip proficiencies for free! Plus you can pump your Perform (Dance) up a bit and get Slippers of Battledancing for Cha-to-damage.

Could you get away with something like Bard 8 (w/ Arcane Preparation feat)/Arcanamach 2/Ultimate Magus 10, for I have no idea what reason?

true_shinken
2010-07-12, 12:05 PM
Gentlemen, when we are hard to dispel, what ought we do?
That is correct. We ought to persist our spells.


Illumian persisting works a lot better for arcanamachs, since it nets you better BAB and better CL from martial arcanist. I'd only ever think of spelldancer for flavour reasons or if I don't have access to Complete Mage, since it is harder to qualify, has lower base attack and lower hit die.


And... if you were in any way correct about what the feat actually does, you'd have a point. You don't hit harder because you're quaking in fear; Craven simply emphasizes that the character is a backstabbing coward. The bonus damage is in no way linked to whether or not the character is afraid at the time. :smallconfused:
You do realize cowards quake in fear, right?
The fact that you are a coward is what makes me dislike the feat, and that's simply a matter of personal taste, I can't understand why so many people complain about this.

Renegade Paladin
2010-07-12, 12:15 PM
You do realize cowards quake in fear, right?
The fact that you are a coward is what makes me dislike the feat, and that's simply a matter of personal taste, I can't understand why so many people complain about this.
:smallsigh: If your character's not cowardly, don't take the feat. But you're grossly oversimplifying your argument; a coward need not quake in fear all the time. The feat does not require that your character be actively afraid in order to take effect.

Keld Denar
2010-07-12, 12:15 PM
Problem with your first build, Fax, is it fails the BAB +6 req. Bard7 only has a +5 BAB. You'd need Bard8 at least to qualify straightclassed.

An alternative would be Bard4/Warblade3. If you took 1 more level of either after you finish Suel, it would be worthwhile to take Song of the White Raven to stack them to get the +2 base IC bonus at 8, and late game Warblade dips are always fun, especially since Warblade4 gets you a stance.

Something like:
Bard4/Warblade3/Suel1/AbjChamp5/Spellsword1/Suel+3/Warblade1/X2

where X is any class you want, but problably more Warblade.

I generally dislike losing BAB before going into Suel though, because Suel casting is rather weak and delaying it, even 1 level, is...not so fun.

lsfreak
2010-07-12, 12:28 PM
You do realize cowards quake in fear, right?
The fact that you are a coward is what makes me dislike the feat, and that's simply a matter of personal taste, I can't understand why so many people complain about this.

Nothing in the mechanics part of it makes you a coward. You are just so focused on being able to strike that one little weak spot that you tend to be caught off-guard by sudden changes in the flow of combat or are particularly susceptible to mental intrusion.

We complain about it because it's a guide, not a collection of things you like and dislike or a place for you to rant about fluff.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 12:45 PM
Illumian persisting works a lot better for arcanamachs, since it nets you better BAB and better CL from martial arcanist. I'd only ever think of spelldancer for flavour reasons or if I don't have access to Complete Mage, since it is harder to qualify, has lower base attack and lower hit die.


What? No no no, back up. What? Illumian persist requires a source of turn undead, only works twice a day, locks you into illumian, and only works twice a day.

Spelldancer, on the other hand, is probably one of the top five arcane PrCs in our extensive experience. With ocular spell abuse in conjunction with reserves of strength, stacked on top of free unlimited persists... I just don't think there's any contest.

Besides. You can just persist Divine Power. That's why we had arcane disciple(war).


So you are, I guess, unhappy with my work. Let me try again.

Mr. Tabla
Human
Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Sarc 4/Spelldancer 2/Abjurant Champion 5 + some junk? or Swiftblade 8?
BAB 18 if you dip the various full-casting full BaB classes, so we'll skip arcane disciple. Any feats we need will be emulated using persisted heroics and persisted mirror move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a).
Feats:
1: Combat Casting
Human: Mobility
Fighter: Dodge
Flaw: Extend Spell
Flaw: Ocular Spell
2 Fighter: ACF'd
3: Endurance
4: Power Attack Or Something
6: Persist Spell
6 Fighter: ACF'd
9: Reserves of Strength
12: Twin Spell

Postmodernist
2010-07-12, 01:24 PM
Humble suggestion for an addition to this fine guide: A "Why Play an Arcanamach" section. I'm familiar with the class, I just feel minimal compulsion to play one. Why should I? Sell it to me.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 01:29 PM
Humble suggestion for an addition to this fine guide: A "Why Play an Arcanamach" section. I'm familiar with the class, I just feel minimal compulsion to play one. Why should I? Sell it to me.

I'd like to, too, quite a bit. I think that a brief mention of craven in the guide would also be good, regardless of our conflicting feelings regarding it. It suits a certain type of character lovely-well. And there's always Assassin's Stance.

Keld Denar
2010-07-12, 01:38 PM
Mr. Roctopus, I don't see any possible way you are qualifying for SA there. Fighter doesn't get enough skill points, nor the proper class skills to get into SA with 6 straight levels. Thats typically why most SA lead-ins have levels in Duskblade or Hexblade.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 01:53 PM
It turns out that if you just don't give a darn, you can hammer your points straight into int. I was shocked, but apparently this gives you some skill points. Fighter's not remotely necessary, if I am honest. Just replace it with your preference.

Forgot to mention that we're buying Iron Will at the Otyugh Hole. Sorry.

As for the lead-in levels, again, it doesn't really matter to that build how you get in, so long as you grab two bonus feats.

Keld Denar
2010-07-12, 02:24 PM
Another fun thing to do is if you are a Goliath Arcanamach, you can take the Knockback feat (along with DungeoncrasherI easily). Suel casting gives you access to Whirling Blade, a 2nd level Transmutation, which counts in EVERY respect as a melee attack. Well, you just PA with your Whirling Blade to activate Knockback, and you can fling people across the room from across the room. Yay synergy!

lsfreak
2010-07-12, 03:34 PM
I'd like to, too, quite a bit. I think that a brief mention of craven in the guide would also be good, regardless of our conflicting feelings regarding it. It suits a certain type of character lovely-well. And there's always Assassin's Stance.

He does have it in there, he just spends 5 of the 7 lines it takes up talking about how you're a coward and that he'd never take it.

Doc Roc
2010-07-12, 03:40 PM
He does have it in there, he just spends 5 of the 7 lines it takes up talking about how you're a coward and that he'd never take it.

Well, you win some, you stab some in the kidney.

So, mostly, you win all of them. I'd rather have a coward on my team than a paladin.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-12, 05:03 PM
I'm satisfied, Schneeky, with your use of monk as being among the highest uses of monk. I respect your work, though it is often... very bizarre. :)

From you, this is high praise indeed. Besides, everyone needs a bit of the bizarre to shake up preconceptions of 'how it should be' every now and then.

true_shinken
2010-07-12, 06:05 PM
Humble suggestion for an addition to this fine guide: A "Why Play an Arcanamach" section. I'm familiar with the class, I just feel minimal compulsion to play one. Why should I? Sell it to me.

Well, if you don't want to play one... you shouldn't play one.

dextercorvia
2010-07-12, 06:15 PM
Well, if you don't want to play one... you shouldn't play one.

Perhaps then, why would you play one? What is its niche?

Keld Denar
2010-07-12, 06:19 PM
Its a mid-powered PrC to help mostly melee-centric characters gain the little bit of magical oomph they need to compete in a mid-high level environment without the temptation to transcend your gishy roots once you gain 9th level spells and the ability to break reality into little bitty pieces and suck them dry of their life-giving substances!

Where-as most gish builds are just casters with a little extra martial prowass, a Suel Arcanamach is a martial character with magical talents to expand its otherwise limited options. Basically, the PsyWar of the magical world, except as a PrC.

Feel free to poach part or all of that.

true_shinken
2010-07-12, 06:20 PM
Perhaps then, why would you play one? What is its niche?

This is in the handbook. It's a light gish with extra skill points. If you like characters with lots of abilities, if you are into the Scarlet Brotherhood or the Suel Empire, if you'd like to try out 6 levels of full base attack classes before becoming a caster and getting 2nd level spells right off the bat, if you want to be a gish and don't want a few d4s here and there on your build, if you want to try a 1/2 casting PrC without gimping yourself... all good reasons to be an arcanamach.
Of course, you can be a gish otherwise, I just feel arcanamach is an elegant way to do it. I just like the class, for me that's as much reason as I need.

Keld Denar
2010-07-12, 08:37 PM
BTW, no mention of Dungeoncrasher Fighter sub levels in the ACF section of the prereq class section. You probably won't get Dungeoncrasher II, but 2d6+1.5x Str is still decent, and as I mentioned above, combos hillariously with your Suel Arcanamach Whirling Blade attacks.

true_shinken
2010-07-12, 09:52 PM
BTW, no mention of Dungeoncrasher Fighter sub levels in the ACF section of the prereq class section. You probably won't get Dungeoncrasher II, but 2d6+1.5x Str is still decent, and as I mentioned above, combos hillariously with your Suel Arcanamach Whirling Blade attacks.

Hmm, I usually think about Dungeoncrasher II, so I must have overlooked it. Will add it, thanks.

Thurbane
2010-07-13, 03:53 AM
I've been working on a Suel Arcanamach spell list...so far, I've got PHB, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, Player's Handbook II and Spell Compendium - please let me know if you can spot any mistakes or omissions:

Added a bunch more books


1st level
Accelerated Movement (SC)
Alarm (PHB)
Alibi (EoE)
Animate Rope (PHB)
Appraising Touch (SC)
Armor Lock (CS)
Arrow Mind (SC)
Babau Slime (SC)
Bestow Wound (HoH)
Breath Flare (SC)
Burning Rage (PHB II)
Cheat (SC)
Color Spray (PHB)
Combat Readiness (DU)
Comprehend Languages (PHB)
Critical Strike (SC)
Cutting Hand (SC)
Dead End (SC)
Deflect, Lesser (PHB II)
Detect Dragonblood (DM)
Detect Secret Doors (PHB)
Detect Undead (PHB)
Detect Weaponry (Cty)
Discern Bloodline (RoD)
Disguise Self (PHB)
Dispel Ward (SC)
Ebon Eyes (SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (SC)
Endure Elements (PHB)
Enlarge Person (PHB)
Erase (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift (SC)
Eyes of the Avoral (BoED)
Feather Fall (PHB)
Fist of Stone (SC)
Float (Fr)
Friendly Face (RoD)
Ghostly Reload (RotD)
Golem Strike (SC)
Guided Shot (SC)
Hoard Gullet (DM)
Hold Portal (PHB)
Horrible Taste (SC)
Identify (PHB)
Insightful Feint (SC)
Instant Diversion (RotD)
Instant Locksmith (SC)
Instant Search (SC)
Ironguts (SC)
Jump (PHB)
Karmic Aura (CM)
Locate City (RoD)
Locate Water (Snd)
Low-Light Vision (SC)
Mage Burr (CS)
Mage Hand, Greater (SC)
Magic Aura (PHB)
Magic Weapon (PHB)
Master’s Touch (SC)
Mighty Wallop (RotD)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Nightshield (SC)
Path of Frost (DM)
Peacebond (Cty)
Portal Beacon (SC)
Protection from (alignment) (PHB)
Quickswim (Stm)
Raging Flame (SC)
Ray of Clumsiness (SC)
Reduce Person (PHB)
Remove Scent (SC)
Resist Planar Alignment (SC)
Scatterspray (SC)
Scholar’s Touch (RoD)
Secret Weapon (Cty)
Serene Visage (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Shieldbearer (SC)
Silent Image (PHB)
Slide (SC)
Slow Burn (SC)
Sniper’s Shot (SC)
Snowdrift (Fr)
Snuff the Light (DU)
Spell Flower (SC)
Spider Form, Lesser (DU)
Spontaneous Search (SC)
Sunstroke (Snd)
Targeting Ray (SC)
Treacherous Weapon (EoE)
True Casting (CM)
True Strike (PHB)
Ventriloquism (PHB)
Vigilant Slumber (CM)
Wave Blessing (Stm)
Weapon Shift (SC)

2nd level
Aiming at the Target (SC)
Alarm, Greater (SC)
Allied Footsteps (CM)
Alter Self (PHB)
Animalistic Power (PHB II)
Arcane Lock (PHB)
Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Attentive Alarm (CM)
Augment Familiar (SC)
Balancing Lorecall (SC)
Balor Nimbus (SC)
Bear’s Endurance (PHB)
Belker Claws (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)
Blinding Color Surge (PHB II)
Blur (PHB)
Body of the Sun (SC)
Boiling Blood (CM)
Bristle (SC)
Brumal Stiffening (Fr)
Bull’s Strength (PHB)
Cat’s Grace (PHB)
Catapult (CS)
Celerity, Lesser (PHB II)
Chain of Eyes (SC)
Cloak Pool (SC)
Crystalline Memories (CM)
Daggerspell Stance (SC)
Dark Way (SC)
Darkvision (PHB)
Deflect (PHB II)
Delusions of Grandeur (SC)
Detect Aberration (LoM)
Detect Thoughts (PHB)
Discern Shapechanger (SC)
Discolor Pool (SC)
Disguise Undead (SC)
Dispelling Touch (PHB II)
Dissonant Chant (SC)
Distracting Ray (SC)
Eagle’s Splendor (PHB)
Earth Lock (SC)
Earthbind (SC)
Earthen Grasp (SC)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (SC)
Energize Potion (BoED)
Energy Surge, Lesser (PHB II)
Enlarge Weapon (CS)
Extend Tentacles (SC)
False Peacebond (Cty)
Fearsome Grapple (SC)
Fins to Feet (SC)
Fly, Swift (SC)
Fox’s Cunning (PHB)
Frost Weapon (Fr)
Fuse Arms (SC)
Ghost Touch Armor (SC)
Heart of Air (CM)
Heroics (SC)
Hurl (SC)
Hypnotic Pattern (PHB)
Icicle (Fr)
Increase Virulence (PHB II)
Infernal Wound (SC)
Insight of Good Fortune (PHB II)
Investiture of the Spined Devil (FC II)
Invisibility (PHB)
Ironthunder Horn (SC)
Jaws of the Moray (Stm)
Knock (PHB)
Kuo-Toa Skin (Stm)
Levitate (PHB)
Lively Step (SC)
Locate Object (PHB)
Lucky Streak (CS)
Magic Mouth (PHB)
Magical Backlash (DU)
Marked Object (SC)
Master’s Touch (PHB II)
Minor Image (PHB)
Mirror Image (PHB)
Misdirection (PHB)
Mountain Stance (SC)
Obscure Object (PHB)
Owl’s Wisdom (PHB)
Phantasmal Assailants (SC)
Phantom Trap (PHB)
Portal Alarm (SC)
Protection from Arrows (PHB)
Pyrotechnics (PHB)
Quick Potion (SC)
Razorfangs (SC)
Reflective Disguise (SC)
Repair Moderate Damage (SC)
Resist Energy (PHB)
Returning Weapon (RotW)
Rope Trick (PHB)
Scale Weakening (SC)
Scintillating Scales (SC)
See Invisibility (PHB)
Shadow Double (DU)
Shadow Mask (SC)
Shadow Radiance (SC)
Shadow Shroud (DU)
Shadow Spray (SC)
Share Talents (PHB II)
Sink (Stm)
Slide, Greater (SC)
Snake’s Swiftness (SC)
Sonic Weapon (SC)
Soul of Anarchy (DM)
Soul of Order (DM)
Speak to Allies (SC)
Spider Climb (PHB)
Spymaster’s Coin (CS)
Steal Size (RotD)
Stone Bones (SC)
Stormrunner’s Ward (Stm)
Stretch Weapon (PHB II)
Sure Strike (PHB II)
Surefooted Stride (SC)
Swim (SC)
Swim (Stm)
Tern’s Persistence (Stm)
Turbidity (Stm)
Urchin’s Spines (Stm)
Vertigo (PHB II)
Vision of Entropy (FC I)
Wall of Gloom (SC)
Whirling Blade (SC)
Whispering Wind (PHB)
Wings of Air (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd level
Air Breathing (SC)
Alter Fortune (PHB II)
Amorphous Form (SC)
Analyze Portal (SC)
Animate Weapon (CM)
Anticipate Teleportation (SC)
Antidragon Aura (SC)
Arcane Sight (PHB)
Arms of Plenty (LoM)
Avoid Planar Effects (SC)
Bite of the Wererat (SC)
Blink (PHB)
Circle Dance (SC)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (PHB)
Claws of Darkness (SC)
Cone of Dimness (SC)
Control Temperature (Fr)
Crown of Clarity (PHB II)
Crown of Might (PHB II)
Crown of Protection (PHB II)
Curse of Arrow Attraction (PHB II)
Deceptive Facade (CM)
Deeper Darkvision (SC)
Demon Dirge (SC)
Detect Ship (Stm)
Devil Blight (SC)
Devil’s Eye (FC II)
Diamondsteel (SC)
Disobedience (CS)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Displacement (PHB)
Distilled Joy (BoED)
Dolorous Blow (SC)
Dragonskin (SC)
Earthen Grace (SC)
Energy Aegis (PHB II)
Energy Surge (PHB II)
Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)
Eradicate Earth (SC)
Evard’s Menacing Tentacles (PHB II)
Explosive Runes (PHB)
False Gravity (SC)
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (DM)
Flame Arrow (PHB)
Fly (PHB)
Gaseous Form (PHB)
Giant’s Wrath (SC)
Girallon’s Blessing (SC)
Glacial Globe of Invulnerability (Fr)
Halt (PHB II)
Hamatula Barbs (SC)
Haste (PHB)
Heart of Water (CM)
Hood of the Cobra (CM)
Illusory Script (PHB)
Investiture of the Bearded Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Chain Devil (FC II)
Invisibility Sphere (PHB)
Karmic Backlash (CM)
Keen Edge (PHB)
Least Dragonshape (DM)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB II)
Magic Circle against (alignment) (PHB)
Magic Weapon, Greater (PHB)
Major Image (PHB)
Mask of the Ideal (CM)
Mighty Wallop, Greater (RotD)
Nondetection (PHB)
Pall of Twilight (CM)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Phantasmal Strangler (CM)
Phantom Guardians (RoD)
Primal Form (SC)
Protection from Dessication (Snd)
Protection from Energy (PHB)
Repair Serious Damage (SC)
Repelling Shield (CM)
Resist Taint (HoH)
Reverse Arrows (SC)
Rust Ray (SC)
Secret Page (PHB)
Sense of the Dragon (RotD)
Shadow Binding (SC)
Shadow Cache (SC)
Shadow Phase (SC)
Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM)
Shrink Item (PHB)
Sign of Sealing (SC)
Siphon (CS)
Slow (PHB)
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass (SC)
Spectral Weapon (SC)
Spell Vulnerability (SC)
Spider Form (DU)
Spiderskin (SC)
Steeldance (SC)
Stony Grasp (SC)
Suspended Silence (SC)
Telepathic Bond, Lesser (SC)
Tenacious Dispelling (CM)
Tongues (PHB)
Tremorsense (SC)
Undulant Innards (LoM)
Unicorn Horn (CM)
Unluck (SC)
Vertigo Field (PHB II)
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM)
Walk the Mountain's Path (RoS)
Wand Modulation (CS)
Water Breathing (PHB)
Water to Acid (Stm)
Weapon of Energy (SC)
Weapon of Impact (SC)
Whispering Sand (Snd)
Wingblast (DM)

4th level
Aerial Alacrity (RotW)
Alliance Undone (EoE)
Arcane Eye (PHB)
Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM)
Assay Spell Resistance (SC)
Attune Form (SC)
Backlash (SC)
Baleful Blink (PHB II)
Bite of the Werewolf (SC)
Blinding Breath (SC)
Call of Stone (PHB II)
Celerity (PHB II)
Condemnation (PHB II)
Corporeal Instability (SC)
Crown of Veils (PHB II)
Darkvision, Mass (SC)
Detect Scrying (PHB)
Dimensional Anchor (PHB)
Disguise Ship (Stm)
Dispelling Screen (SC)
Displacer Form (SC)
Enduring Flight (RotW)
Enlarge Person, Mass (PHB)
Entangling Staff (SC)
Fire Stride (SC)
Fire Trap (PHB)
Flame Whips (SC)
Flight of the Dragon (SC)
Forceward (SC)
Friendly Fire (EoE)
Fuse Sand (Snd)
Glacial Ward (Fr)
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (PHB)
Hallucinatory Terrain (PHB)
Heart of Earth (CM)
Ice Shield (Fr)
Illusory Wall (PHB)
Investiture of the Amnizu (FC II)
Investiture of the Erinyes (FC II)
Investiture of the Harvester Devil (FC II)
Investiture of the Steel Devil (FC II)
Invisibility, Greater (PHB)
Iron Bones (SC)
Know Vulnerabilities (SC)
Locate Creature (PHB)
Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM)
Metal Melt (SC)
Mirror Image, Greater (PHB II)
Nightmare Terrain (CM)
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CM)
Passage of the Shifting Sands (DM)
Perfect Summons (BoED)
Perinarch (SC)
Phantasmal Killer (PHB)
Phantom Battle (PHB II)
Polymorph (PHB)
Portal Alarm, Improved (SC)
Rainbow Pattern (PHB)
Raise from the Deep (SC)
Ray Deflection (SC)
Ray of Deanimation (SC)
Rebirth of Iron (CM)
Reduce Person, Mass (PHB)
Remove Curse (PHB)
Repair Critical Damage (SC)
Resist Energy, Mass (SC)
Resistance, Greater (SC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SC)
Rusted Blade (CM)
Sandform (Snd)
Scramble Portal (SC)
Scrying (PHB)
Sensory Deprivation (SC)
Shadow Conjuration (PHB)
Shadow Well (SC)
Sharptooth (SC)
Slashing Dispel (PHB II)
Spell Enhancer (SC)
Stifle Spell (PHB II)
Stone Shape (PHB)
Stoneskin (PHB)
Touch of the Blackened Soul (DM)
Treasure Scent (SC)
Trollshape (PHB II)
Voice of the Dragon (SC)
Wall of (alignment) (SC)
Wings of Air, Greater (SC)

5th level
Airy Water (Stm)
Animal Growth (PHB)
Anticold Sphere (SC)
Antifire Sphere (Snd)
Baleful Polymorph (PHB)
Bite of the Wereboar (SC)
Blink, Greater (SC)
Break Enchantment (PHB)
Breath Weapon Substitution (SC)
Contact Other Plane (PHB)
Contingent Energy Resistance (SC)
Dance of Blades (PHB II)
Dismissal (PHB)
Dispel Water (Snd)
Dispelling Breath (SC)
Draconic Might (SC)
Draconic Polymorph (SC)
Dragonsight (SC)
Dream (PHB)
Duelward (SC)
Earth Reaver (SC)
Enlarge Person, Greater (SC)
Ethereal Breath (SC)
Etherealness, Swift (PHB II)
Fabricate (PHB)
False Vision (PHB)
Fever Dream (CM)
Field of Resistance (PHB II)
Fiendform (SC)
Flaying Tendrils (CM)
Flesh to Ice (Fr)
Flesh to Salt (Snd)
Flowsight (Stm)
Fly, Mass (SC)
Form of the Desert Hunter (DM)
Form of the Threefold Beast (CM)
Gutsnake (SC)
Heart of Fire (CM)
Ice Shape (Fr)
Ice to Flesh (Fr)
Illusory Feast (SC)
Indomitability (SC)
Investiture of the Narzugon (FC II)
Investiture of the Orthon (FC II)
Ironguard, Lesser (SC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Lord of the Sky (DM)
Lucent Lance (SC)
Mana Flux (PHB II)
Mirage Arcana (PHB)
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (PHB)
Nightmare (PHB)
Nightstalker’s Transformation (SC)
Overland Flight (PHB)
Passwall (PHB)
Persistent Image (PHB)
Phantasmal Injury (EoE)
Planar Tolerance (SC)
Prying Eyes (PHB)
Reciprocal Gyre (SC)
Reduce Person, Greater (SC)
Refusal (SC)
Retributive Image (CM)
Seeming (PHB)
Shadow Evocation (PHB)
Shadow Form (SC)
Shadow Guardians (RoD)
Shadow Hand (SC)
Shadowfade (SC)
Spell Matrix, Lesser (SC)
Spell Theft (CS)
Spider Form, Greater (DU)
Stunning Breath (SC)
Surefooted Stride, Mass (SC)
Symbol of Spell Loss (SC)
Telekinesis (PHB)
Telepathic Bond (PHB)
Telepathy Block (BoED)
Touch of Adamantine (BoED)
Touch of Chaos (EoE)
Transformation of the Deeps (Stm)
Transmute Mud to Rock (PHB)
Transmute Rock to Mud (PHB)
Transmute Sand to Glass (Snd)
Transmute Sand to Stone (Snd)
Transmute Stone to Sand (Snd)
Unearthly Heat (Snd)
Unicorn Blood (CM)
Vanishing Weapon (BoED)
Vulnerability (SC)
Wall of Dispel Magic (SC)
Xorn Movement (SC)
Zone of Peace (Cty)
Zone of Respite (SC)

true_shinken
2010-07-13, 10:34 AM
I've been working on a Suel Arcanamach spell list...so far, I've got PHB, Complete Mage, Dragon Magic, Player's Handbook II and Spell Compendium - please let me know if you can spot any mistakes or omissions:


1 st level
Accelerated Movement (SC)
Alarm (PHB)
Animate Rope (PHB)
Appraising Touch (SC)
Arrow Mind (SC)
Babau Slime (SC)
Breath Flare (SC)
Burning Rage (PHB II)
Cheat (SC)
Color Spray (PHB)
Comprehend Languages (PHB)
Critical Strike (SC)
Cutting Hand (SC)
Dead End (SC)
Deflect, Lesser (PHB II)
Detect Dragonblood (DM)
Detect Secret Doors (PHB)
Detect Undead (PHB)
Disguise Self (PHB)
Dispel Ward (SC)
Ebon Eyes (SC)
Ectoplasmic Armor (SC)
Endure Elements (PHB)
Enlarge Person (PHB)
Erase (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat (PHB)
Expeditious Retreat, Swift (SC)
Feather Fall (PHB)
Fist of Stone (SC)
Golem Strike (SC)
Guided Shot (SC)
Hoard Gullet (DM)
Hold Portal (PHB)
Horrible Taste (SC)
Identify (PHB)
Insightful Feint (SC)
Instant Locksmith (SC)
Instant Search (SC)
Ironguts (SC)
Jump (PHB)
Karmic Aura (CM)
Low-Light Vision (SC)
Mage Hand, Greater (SC)
Magic Aura (PHB)
Magic Weapon (PHB)
Master’s Touch (SC)
Nerveskitter (SC)
Nightshield (SC)
Path of Frost (DM)
Portal Beacon (SC)
Protection from (alignment) (PHB)
Raging Flame (SC)
Ray of Clumsiness (SC)
Reduce Person (PHB)
Remove Scent (SC)
Resist Planar Alignment (SC)
Scatterspray (SC)
Serene Visage (SC)
Shield (PHB)
Shieldbearer (SC)
Silent Image (PHB)
Slide (SC)
Slow Burn (SC)
Sniper’s Shot (SC)
Spell Flower (SC)
Spontaneous Search (SC)
Targeting Ray (SC)
True Casting (CM)
True Strike (PHB)
Ventriloquism (PHB)
Vigilant Slumber (CM)
Weapon Shift (SC)

2nd level
Aiming at the Target (SC)
Alarm, Greater (SC)
Allied Footsteps (CM)
Alter Self (PHB)
Animalistic Power (PHB II)
Arcane Lock (PHB)
Arcane Turmoil (CM)
Attentive Alarm (CM)
Augment Familiar (SC)
Balancing Lorecall (SC)
Balor Nimbus (SC)
Bear’s Endurance (PHB)
Belker Claws (SC)
Bladeweave (SC)
Blinding Color Surge (PHB II)
Blur (PHB)
Body of the Sun (SC)
Boiling Blood (CM)
Bristle (SC)
Bull’s Strength (PHB)
Cat’s Grace (PHB)
Celerity, Lesser (PHB II)
Chain of Eyes (SC)
Cloak Pool (SC)
Crystalline Memories (CM)
Daggerspell Stance (SC)
Dark Way (SC)
Darkvision (PHB)
Deflect (PHB II)
Delusions of Grandeur (SC)
Detect Thoughts (PHB)
Discern Shapechanger (SC)
Discolor Pool (SC)
Disguise Undead (SC)
Dispelling Touch (PHB II)
Dissonant Chant (SC)
Distracting Ray (SC)
Eagle’s Splendor (PHB)
Earth Lock (SC)
Earthbind (SC)
Earthen Grasp (SC)
Ectoplasmic Feedback (SC)
Energy Surge, Lesser (PHB II)
Extend Tentacles (SC)
Fearsome Grapple (SC)
Fins to Feet (SC)
Fly, Swift (SC)
Fox’s Cunning (PHB)
Fuse Arms (SC)
Ghost Touch Armor (SC)
Heart of Air (CM)
Heroics (SC)
Hurl (SC)
Hypnotic Pattern (PHB)
Increase Virulence (PHB II)
Infernal Wound (SC)
Insight of Good Fortune (PHB II)
Invisibility (PHB)
Ironthunder Horn (SC)
Knock (PHB)
Levitate (PHB)
Lively Step (SC)
Locate Object (PHB)
Magic Mouth (PHB)
Marked Object (SC)
Master’s Touch (PHB II)
Minor Image (PHB)
Mirror Image (PHB)
Misdirection (PHB)
Mountain Stance (SC)
Obscure Object (PHB)
Owl’s Wisdom (PHB)
Phantasmal Assailants (SC)
Phantom Trap (PHB)
Portal Alarm (SC)
Protection from Arrows (PHB)
Pyrotechnics (PHB)
Quick Potion (SC)
Razorfangs (SC)
Reflective Disguise (SC)
Repair Moderate Damage (SC)
Resist Energy (PHB)
Rope Trick (PHB)
Scale Weakening (SC)
Scintillating Scales (SC)
See Invisibility (PHB)
Shadow Mask (SC)
Shadow Radiance (SC)
Shadow Spray (SC)
Share Talents (PHB II)
Slide, Greater (SC)
Snake’s Swiftness (SC)
Sonic Weapon (SC)
Soul of Anarchy (DM)
Soul of Order (DM)
Speak to Allies (SC)
Spider Climb (PHB)
Stone Bones (SC)
Stretch Weapon (PHB II)
Sure Strike (PHB II)
Surefooted Stride (SC)
Swim (SC)
Vertigo (PHB II)
Wall of Gloom (SC)
Whirling Blade (SC)
Whispering Wind (PHB)
Wings of Air (SC)
Wraithstrike (SC)

3rd level
Air Breathing (SC)
Alter Fortune (PHB II)
Amorphous Form (SC)
Analyze Portal (SC)
Animate Weapon (CM)
Anticipate Teleportation (SC)
Antidragon Aura (SC)
Arcane Sight (PHB)
Avoid Planar Effects (SC)
Bite of the Wererat (SC)
Blink (PHB)
Circle Dance (SC)
Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (PHB)
Claws of Darkness (SC)
Cone of Dimness (SC)
Crown of Clarity (PHB II)
Crown of Might (PHB II)
Crown of Protection (PHB II)
Curse of Arrow Attraction (PHB II)
Deceptive Facade (CM)
Deeper Darkvision (SC)
Demon Dirge (SC)
Devil Blight (SC)
Diamondsteel (SC)
Dispel Magic (PHB)
Displacement (PHB)
Dolorous Blow (SC)
Dragonskin (SC)
Earthen Grace (SC)
Energy Aegis (PHB II)
Energy Surge (PHB II)
Energy Vulnerability (PHB II)
Eradicate Earth (SC)
Evard’s Menacing Tentacles (PHB II)
Explosive Runes (PHB)
False Gravity (SC)
Ferocity of Sanguine Rage (DM)
Flame Arrow (PHB)
Fly (PHB)
Gaseous Form (PHB)
Giant’s Wrath (SC)
Girallon’s Blessing (SC)
Halt (PHB II)
Hamatula Barbs (SC)
Haste (PHB)
Heart of Water (CM)
Hood of the Cobra (CM)
Illusory Script (PHB)
Invisibility Sphere (PHB)
Karmic Backlash (CM)
Keen Edge (PHB)
Least Dragonshape (DM)
Legion of Sentinels (PHB II)
Magic Circle against (alignment) (PHB)
Magic Weapon, Greater (PHB)
Major Image (PHB)
Mask of the Ideal (CM)
Nondetection (PHB)
Pall of Twilight (CM)
Phantasmal Strangler (CM)
Primal Form (SC)
Protection from Energy (PHB)
Repair Serious Damage (SC)
Repelling Shield (CM)
Reverse Arrows (SC)
Rust Ray (SC)
Secret Page (PHB)
Shadow Binding (SC)
Shadow Cache (SC)
Shadow Phase (SC)
Shape of the Hellspawned Stalker (CM)
Shrink Item (PHB)
Sign of Sealing (SC)
Slow (PHB)
Snake’s Swiftness, Mass (SC)
Spectral Weapon (SC)
Spell Vulnerability (SC)
Spiderskin (SC)
Steeldance (SC)
Stony Grasp (SC)
Suspended Silence (SC)
Telepathic Bond, Lesser (SC)
Tenacious Dispelling (CM)
Tongues (PHB)
Tremorsense (SC)
Unicorn Horn (CM)
Unluck (SC)
Vertigo Field (PHB II)
Vision of the Omniscient Eye (DM)
Water Breathing (PHB)
Weapon of Energy (SC)
Weapon of Impact (SC)
Wingblast (DM)

4th level
Arcane Eye (PHB)
Aspect of the Icy Hunter (CM)
Assay Spell Resistance (SC)
Attune Form (SC)
Backlash (SC)
Baleful Blink (PHB II)
Bite of the Werewolf (SC)
Blinding Breath (SC)
Call of Stone (PHB II)
Celerity (PHB II)
Condemnation (PHB II)
Corporeal Instability (SC)
Crown of Veils (PHB II)
Darkvision, Mass (SC)
Detect Scrying (PHB)
Dimensional Anchor (PHB)
Dispelling Screen (SC)
Displacer Form (SC)
Enlarge Person, Mass (PHB)
Entangling Staff (SC)
Fire Stride (SC)
Fire Trap (PHB)
Flame Whips (SC)
Flight of the Dragon (SC)
Forceward (SC)
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser (PHB)
Hallucinatory Terrain (PHB)
Heart of Earth (CM)
Illusory Wall (PHB)
Invisibility, Greater (PHB)
Iron Bones (SC)
Know Vulnerabilities (SC)
Locate Creature (PHB)
Mark of the Enlightened Soul (DM)
Metal Melt (SC)
Mirror Image, Greater (PHB II)
Nightmare Terrain (CM)
Otiluke's Suppressing Field (CM)
Passage of the Shifting Sands (DM)
Perinarch (SC)
Phantasmal Killer (PHB)
Phantom Battle (PHB II)
Polymorph (PHB)
Portal Alarm, Improved (SC)
Rainbow Pattern (PHB)
Raise from the Deep (SC)
Ray Deflection (SC)
Ray of Deanimation (SC)
Rebirth of Iron (CM)
Reduce Person, Mass (PHB)
Remove Curse (PHB)
Repair Critical Damage (SC)
Resist Energy, Mass (SC)
Resistance, Greater (SC)
Ruin Delver’s Fortune (SC)
Rusted Blade (CM)
Scramble Portal (SC)
Scrying (PHB)
Sensory Deprivation (SC)
Shadow Conjuration (PHB)
Shadow Well (SC)
Sharptooth (SC)
Slashing Dispel (PHB II)
Spell Enhancer (SC)
Stifle Spell (PHB II)
Stone Shape (PHB)
Stoneskin (PHB)
Touch of the Blackened Soul (DM)
Treasure Scent (SC)
Trollshape (PHB II)
Voice of the Dragon (SC)
Wall of (alignment) (SC)
Wings of Air, Greater (SC)

5th level
Animal Growth (PHB)
Anticold Sphere (SC)
Baleful Polymorph (PHB)
Bite of the Wereboar (SC)
Blink, Greater (SC)
Break Enchantment (PHB)
Breath Weapon Substitution (SC)
Contact Other Plane (PHB)
Contingent Energy Resistance (SC)
Dance of Blades (PHB II)
Dismissal (PHB)
Dispelling Breath (SC)
Draconic Might (SC)
Draconic Polymorph (SC)
Dragonsight (SC)
Dream (PHB)
Duelward (SC)
Earth Reaver (SC)
Enlarge Person, Greater (SC)
Ethereal Breath (SC)
Etherealness, Swift (PHB II)
Fabricate (PHB)
False Vision (PHB)
Fever Dream (CM)
Field of Resistance (PHB II)
Fiendform (SC)
Flaying Tendrils (CM)
Fly, Mass (SC)
Form of the Desert Hunter (DM)
Form of the Threefold Beast (CM)
Gutsnake (SC)
Heart of Fire (CM)
Illusory Feast (SC)
Indomitability (SC)
Ironguard, Lesser (SC)
Lightning Leap (CM)
Lord of the Sky (DM)
Lucent Lance (SC)
Mana Flux (PHB II)
Mirage Arcana (PHB)
Mordenkainen’s Private Sanctum (PHB)
Nightmare (PHB)
Nightstalker’s Transformation (SC)
Overland Flight (PHB)
Passwall (PHB)
Persistent Image (PHB)
Planar Tolerance (SC)
Prying Eyes (PHB)
Reciprocal Gyre (SC)
Reduce Person, Greater (SC)
Refusal (SC)
Retributive Image (CM)
Seeming (PHB)
Shadow Evocation (PHB)
Shadow Form (SC)
Shadow Hand (SC)
Shadowfade (SC)
Spell Matrix, Lesser (SC)
Stunning Breath (SC)
Surefooted Stride, Mass (SC)
Symbol of Spell Loss (SC)
Telekinesis (PHB)
Telepathic Bond (PHB)
Transmute Mud to Rock (PHB)
Transmute Rock to Mud (PHB)
Unicorn Blood (CM)
Vulnerability (SC)
Wall of Dispel Magic (SC)
Xorn Movement (SC)
Zone of Respite (SC)


Thurbane, that's totally awesome. Can I hug you? ^^

Doc Roc
2010-07-13, 12:05 PM
So, I still think spelldancer is wildly stronger than the illumian persist trick, which still requires a source of turn undead. I'm willing to step into the arena to prove it, if you'd like.

true_shinken
2010-07-13, 02:42 PM
So, I still think spelldancer is wildly stronger than the illumian persist trick, which still requires a source of turn undead. I'm willing to step into the arena to prove it, if you'd like.

Arena proves nothing, D&D is not PvP battle.
I never said Spelldancer wasn't a strong PrC. It is. It is also one with heavy requirements, setting specific, with fluff competly different from arcanamach and relies on a questionable mechanic for persisting.
Using Spelldancer does not seem pratical to me. You have to ask your DM to allow something from a different setting to start with (Suel Arcanamach is from Greyhawk) and use a class feature in a specific way to circumvent it's only drawback. I would never allow this in my game. I don't think it's optimization, it's munchkning.
I prefer to make my statements and guides based on practical optimization. As such, I think illumian persisting is a lot more viable.

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 02:46 PM
(Suel Arcanamach is from Greyhawk)

Nitpick: The Suel Empire may (or may not) have existed in Greyhawk, but SA's appearance in Complete Arcane makes him non-setting specific.

Doc Roc
2010-07-13, 02:58 PM
Arena proves nothing, D&D is not PvP battle.
I never said Spelldancer wasn't a strong PrC. It is. It is also one with heavy requirements, setting specific, with fluff competly different from arcanamach and relies on a questionable mechanic for persisting.
Using Spelldancer does not seem pratical to me. You have to ask your DM to allow something from a different setting to start with (Suel Arcanamach is from Greyhawk) and use a class feature in a specific way to circumvent it's only drawback. I would never allow this in my game. I don't think it's optimization, it's munchkning.
I prefer to make my statements and guides based on practical optimization. As such, I think illumian persisting is a lot more viable.

I don't think that immunity to exhaustion is a questionable mechanic. Suel Arcanamach is setting-independent now, thanks to its appearance in CompArc. And I'm just not sure how the fluff is so different. Both are ancient techniques that fuse two disparate traditions to produce a powerful array of martial powers. It's your guide, I suppose, but it sounds more like you're writing a love letter to your playstyle instead of building a guide.

Keld Denar
2010-07-13, 03:09 PM
Technically, Suel Arcanamach isn't any less setting specific than Radiant Servant of Pelor, or Purple Dragon Knight, but just like those PrCs, its just as easily adapted.

The ancient Sueluise empire was one of great power and decadance, which lead to their dissolution and demise. If your character was from the Forgotten Realms, he could easily be a Netherese Arcanamach. It certainly fits the bill. Change the language req from Ancient Sueluise to Ancient Netherese, and everything else stays the same. Its just like you'd change Radiant Servant of Pelor to Radiant Servant of Lathander, easy.

Thurbane
2010-07-13, 05:43 PM
Thurbane, that's totally awesome. Can I hug you? ^^
Only if it's in a manly way! *bump shoulders* :smallbiggrin:

...I'm hoping to add more books when I get the time.

Could you slot in the list, or a link to it, in the "Spells" section of your guide?

true_shinken
2010-07-13, 06:11 PM
It's your guide, I suppose, but it sounds more like you're writing a love letter to your playstyle instead of building a guide.
It's pretty simple to agree to disagree here.
Unless I'm going for breaking records or something, I try to make my builds as clean and simple as possible. It's elegant, it pleases most DMs and increases the probability of the build ever being played in a game, therefore finding some use to it. It's a school of thought I follow since the golden days of 339, inspired by the guide-writers of then (now most of them are at BG, but I dislike those boards for some reason).
This very guide is an updated repost from my old guide from 339. The fact in a few years no one ever refered to it as a 'love letter to my playstyle' makes me think it is not. I'm just not in the same school of thought as you.
Now, if you want to discuss this still, I'd be glad to do it by PM, but I'd appreciate if it wasn't on this thread, for the sake of future readers and organization.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-13, 07:50 PM
As an addendum to the Ranger entry in the 'classes' section:

Use the option in the SRD to ditch the Combat Style feats in favor of Wildshape, then pick up Natural Spell at 6th. Have fun. Since neither archery nor TWF give you much, it gives you something viable for something... not so much.

true_shinken
2010-07-13, 08:02 PM
As an addendum to the Ranger entry in the 'classes' section:

Use the option in the SRD to ditch the Combat Style feats in favor of Wildshape, then pick up Natural Spell at 6th. Have fun. Since neither archery nor TWF give you much, it gives you something viable for something... not so much.

God, can't believe I didn't mention the wildshape ranger! The horror! The injustice! Thanks a lot for pointing that out, Shneekey.
Damn, what was I thinking, really?



Only if it's in a manly way! *bump shoulders* :smallbiggrin:

...I'm hoping to add more books when I get the time.

Could you slot in the list, or a link to it, in the "Spells" section of your guide?
Sure, sure, I've been meaning to do this already ^^


Technically, Suel Arcanamach isn't any less setting specific than Radiant Servant of Pelor, or Purple Dragon Knight, but just like those PrCs, its just as easily adapted.
Yes, you are absolutely sure.
My point is that DMs allow this kind of stuff when you are trying to build a fun character, to go with a concept and the like. When you are simply going for the most plusses and you request your DM to change the fluff on something... well, you'll probably get a no.

Thurbane
2010-07-13, 09:59 PM
Another feat crosses my mind: Minor Shapeshift (CM) - on your SA gets access to 4th level spells (and Polymorph), this is a pretty nice feat. Temp HP, bonus to damage or boost to speed as a swift action that lasts for several rounds is pretty sweet.

Keld Denar
2010-07-13, 10:47 PM
And if your DM bans Polymorph, fear not. SpC has Trollshape, another 4th level spell with the [Polymorph] subtype. Not only is it kinda a fun spell (you gain regen!) and a fun one to cast on your familiar (attack gerbal trollform GOOOOOO), it allows you to activate Minor Shapeshift. That and Greater Mirror Image are 2 of the MOST important 4th level spells ANY Suel Arcanamach should learn, bar none.

Wings of Peace
2010-07-14, 02:40 AM
I prefer to make my statements and guides based on practical optimization.


This is your own relative opinion which is fine since it is your handbook, but you are not helping anyone by neglecting to tell them the full range of their options instead of leaving it as a matter for them to go over with their DMs. Different groups play at different power levels and with different regulations on cross campaign material (especially since many people I talk to do not consider the SArc to be setting specific).

Thurbane
2010-07-14, 03:22 AM
Update: added a bunch of books to my SA Spell List (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8911039#post8911039). :smallsmile:

I'm also working on a build: the Pact Arcanamach - Hexblade 2/Binder 4/KotSS 4/SA 4/Abj Champ 5/Spellsword 1 (Spellsword feels a little tacked on, but it was to round out the levels). BAB +18, Fort +12, Ref +7, Will +15. Gets 10th level SA casting, and 8th level Binding (2x 4th level vestiges, or 2x 5th with the Improved Binding feat - which you can "buy" with your Binder 4th level bonus feat. I would go for Paimon as your KoTSS vestige, and Balam as the 2nd one). The only feat required beyond the standard SA fare is Weapon Focus for KotSS. He gets a shopping list of class features:
Abjurant armor
Aligned strike
Arcane boost
Arcane resistance
Dispelling strike 1/day
Extended abjuration
Extended spellstrength
Hexblade’s curse 1/day
Ignore spell failure chance 10%
Martial arcanist
Pact augmentation (1 ability)
Patron vestige
Soul binding (2 vestiges)
Spellcasting
Suppress sign
Swift abjuration
Tenacious spells
Vestige’s power
Vestige’s protection
Vestige’s protection aura

true_shinken
2010-07-14, 10:06 AM
As an addendum to the Ranger entry in the 'classes' section:

Use the option in the SRD to ditch the Combat Style feats in favor of Wildshape, then pick up Natural Spell at 6th. Have fun. Since neither archery nor TWF give you much, it gives you something viable for something... not so much.

Oh, I just found out the guide already mentions Wildshape Rangers. Sorry, it's been years since I wrote that.


Another feat crosses my mind: Minor Shapeshift (CM) - on your SA gets access to 4th level spells (and Polymorph), this is a pretty nice feat. Temp HP, bonus to damage or boost to speed as a swift action that lasts for several rounds is pretty sweet.
Polymorph makes babies cry. But this feat is really good, probably the best reserve feat for an arcanamach. Is it not in the guide already...?

Thanks everyone for suggestions, I can see the guide is improving.

Doc Roc
2010-07-14, 04:08 PM
I was one of those guide writers, True.

Thurbane
2010-07-14, 05:20 PM
Polymorph makes babies cry. But this feat is really good, probably the best reserve feat for an arcanamach. Is it not in the guide already...?
As Keld points out, if Polymorph is banned, you can still qualify for this with Trollshape. :smallsmile:

ex cathedra
2010-07-14, 09:59 PM
Illumian persisting works a lot better for arcanamachs, since it nets you better BAB and better CL from martial arcanist. I'd only ever think of spelldancer for flavour reasons or if I don't have access to Complete Mage, since it is harder to qualify, has lower base attack and lower hit die.

Really? Spelldancer is a potentially heinously powerful class, and without an arbitrarily large amount of nightsticks Illumian Persist won't be nearly as powerful as spelldancing. All it takes is a way to grap exhaustion immunity, though few things do it as well as Necropolitan Spelldancers.

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-14, 10:19 PM
Illumian Persist is limited to twice daily if I remember correctly, so multiple Nightsticks aren't really very necessary, and it can never match the power of Spelldancer.

I don't think Shinken is missing the power of Spelldancer though.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-07-14, 10:22 PM
Is there anyway to "break" the CL cap on dispel magic? because if so I think a Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant champion can make a great dispeller.

sofawall
2010-07-14, 10:23 PM
Is there anyway to "break" the CL cap on dispel magic? because if so I think a Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant champion can make a great dispeller.

I'm not sure, but Reserves of Strength may work. I've yet to actually read the feat, but I hear so much of it.


I don't think Shinken is missing the power of Spelldancer though.

I suspect a hatred of cowardly dancers.

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-14, 10:25 PM
Is there anyway to "break" the CL cap on dispel magic? because if so I think a Suel Arcanamach/Abjurant champion can make a great dispeller.

Reserves of Strength should do it, since it breaks most caps on spells. Other than that, you'll have to rely on various bonuses to dispel checks. A decent list can be found here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871214/Dispelling_38;_Counterspelling_Compilation).

Thurbane
2010-07-14, 11:12 PM
Reserves of Strength is basically 3rd party though - true, the book (DLCS) is stamped as an ofiicial WotC product, but it still wouldn't fly with a lot of DMs.

Also, I have a question: would "Ignore Spell Failure Chance" from two sources (say, Suel Arcanamach and Spellsword) stack? I'm guessing not, since they are specifically named as the same ability for both classes.

Claudius Maximus
2010-07-14, 11:19 PM
Reserves of Strength is basically 3rd party though - true, the book (DLCS) is stamped as an ofiicial WotC product, but it still wouldn't fly with a lot of DMs.

Also, I have a question: would "Ignore Spell Failure Chance" from two sources (say, Suel Arcanamach and Spellsword) stack? I'm guessing not, since they are specifically named as the same ability for both classes.

The other Dragonlance books are basically 3rd party, being published by Sovereign Press, but DLCS is 100% WotC and is on the same footing as ECS and FRCS.

I don't think those abilities stack, since there is no language to suggest they do. You simply have two instances of the same ability.

Keld Denar
2010-07-15, 12:40 AM
Huh, I've always figured they would stack, given that its untyped. Certainly not unbalanced to let them stack.

sofawall
2010-07-15, 12:52 AM
So, most handbooks tend to have some section of questionable tricks and odorous cheeses. Is this handbook going to have it, or does someone else have to make a handbook to point out way to get better at dispelling, persisting, craven and whatnot?

true_shinken
2010-07-15, 09:23 AM
So, most handbooks tend to have some section of questionable tricks and odorous cheeses. Is this handbook going to have it, or does someone else have to make a handbook to point out way to get better at dispelling, persisting, craven and whatnot?
I wonder why you never said back at 339 ^^
A 'cheese factory' section could work. I just don't think most of those stuff is specially available to arcanamachs - it's juts known cheese usable by any arcane caster.
Also, you confuse me with your mention of Craven. Is there a specific, non-obvious way to optimize further this feat that I'm unaware of?

sofawall
2010-07-15, 09:27 AM
I left 339 after it became not 339 anymore. Couldn't stand the new layout. Believe me, I would rather be back at Gleemax rather than the new WotC board or here.

As for craven, it's a source of additional damage, something this class needs. Also, this class is particularity good at persisting spells (in theory) because it has a bonus against dispels, making it harder for the enemy to waste your investment.

true_shinken
2010-07-15, 09:57 AM
I left 339 after it became not 339 anymore. Couldn't stand the new layout. Believe me, I would rather be back at Gleemax rather than the new WotC board or here.
Yeah, I totally agree with you. Good times.


As for craven, it's a source of additional damage, something this class needs. Also, this class is particularity good at persisting spells (in theory) because it has a bonus against dispels, making it harder for the enemy to waste your investment.
I know Craven is a good source of bonus damage; it says so on the guide, even.
I also know the class is good at persisting and the guide even shows how to do it, building on synergetic entry-classes and races.
About Spelldancer x Illumian on this: Illumian spends race (going for probably the best race for arcanamachs) and 4 levels of base classes into Paladin, gaining a few other goodies. Spelldancer spends 2 extra feats and has worst bab and hit die. A Illumian build could spend those levels a Spelldancer build would use getting other class features. A Spelldancer still needs to get 6 levels of XXX before going into arcanamach (maybe 5, I believe you can go for Spelldancer at 5 and then into arcanamach, but you wouldn't progress arcanamach casting), so you are actually wasting a lot of resources to do something you could simply do otherwise.
That said, using spelldance to persist looks a lot cheap to me. The drawbacks of spelldance are that it takes time and it fatigues you. With persisting, it does not matter that it takes time at all.
I also have to say it irked me to have someone gloating on my guide about 'finding out' something already posted in the guide - that arcanamachs get a lot of benefit from persisting.

Keld Denar
2010-07-15, 01:01 PM
Now that the Iron Optimization challenge is over, you can throw my build from there in the list.

AeshKrau Illumian Duskblade2/Paladin4/Suel1/AbjChamp5/GSA8.

Still gets 10/10 Suel casting, decent Str synergy between AeshKrau and GSA, and the Suel/AbjChamp/GSA caster level combo that results in an actual CL higher than your ECL before adding Tenacious Spells. It may not have won, but it did average among the highest for the Power catagory.

true_shinken
2010-07-15, 01:29 PM
Now that the Iron Optimization challenge is over, you can throw my build from there in the list.

AeshKrau Illumian Duskblade2/Paladin4/Suel1/AbjChamp5/GSA8.

Still gets 10/10 Suel casting, decent Str synergy between AeshKrau and GSA, and the Suel/AbjChamp/GSA caster level combo that results in an actual CL higher than your ECL before adding Tenacious Spells. It may not have won, but it did average among the highest for the Power catagory.

Yeah, it is very similar to the Green Star Arcanamach already in the guide. It just has less Suel Arcanamach and lacks Warblade levels.
Pretty decent, still.

ex cathedra
2010-07-15, 02:41 PM
About Spelldancer x Illumian on this: Illumian spends race (going for probably the best race for arcanamachs) and 4 levels of base classes into Paladin, gaining a few other goodies. Spelldancer spends 2 extra feats and has worst bab and hit die. A Illumian build could spend those levels a Spelldancer build would use getting other class features. A Spelldancer still needs to get 6 levels of XXX before going into arcanamach (maybe 5, I believe you can go for Spelldancer at 5 and then into arcanamach, but you wouldn't progress arcanamach casting), so you are actually wasting a lot of resources to do something you could simply do otherwise.
That said, using spelldance to persist looks a lot cheap to me. The drawbacks of spelldance are that it takes time and it fatigues you. With persisting, it does not matter that it takes time at all.
I also have to say it irked me to have someone gloating on my guide about 'finding out' something already posted in the guide - that arcanamachs get a lot of benefit from persisting.

But, the point is, you can't replicate spelldancing otherwise. Spelldancing can potentially allow you to persist every spell on your list at no extra cost to you. Using the Illumian method allows you to persist, at most, two spells per day, and you need an extra source of Turn Undead uses to do so. Not to mention that it opens up both the Human race and new base class levels. The class itself delivers nearly everything you want from it (spelldancing) it its first level.

true_shinken
2010-07-15, 02:56 PM
But, the point is, you can't replicate spelldancing otherwise. Spelldancing can potentially allow you to persist every spell on your list at no extra cost to you. Using the Illumian method allows you to persist, at most, two spells per day, and you need an extra source of Turn Undead uses to do so. Not to mention that it opens up both the Human race and new base class levels. The class itself delivers nearly everything you want from it (spelldancing) it its first level.

But do you even need that many persisted spells anyway? Gish spells tend to have long durations (and Suel Arcanamach doubles that) and/or be cast as swift actions anyway. Persisting helps, sure, but why go out of your way for that?
Also, like I said before, combining both Suel Arcanamach and Spelldancer requires refluffing of at least one of the classes. Are you willing to ask your DM to refluff a class so that you can dip it and then work around the only weakness of an already powerful ability? That's very, very cheesy.
As I said before, I acknowledge the power of this option and I'll even add to a future 'cheese factory' class, but I don't think it is practical and I simply don't like it, for all the reasons I've already mentioned.