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View Full Version : PsyRogue/Swashbuckler Build Help [3.5]



Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 12:08 AM
These two classes seem to have what looks like some minor Int-based synergy. I'd like to build some sort of knife-fighter off it, with lots of throwing (probably eventually going Master Thrower if I can figure a way) or a mobile duellist, either option would be fine.

I'd like to avoid ToB, and also Factotum, if possible. Chameleon would be a welcome option, if it fits, as would Ghostwalker.

Unlike my usual requests, this is a 1-20 build request. Also, no Vancian Magic allowed, and the other details are as below.


No Archivists, Clerics, Druids, Erudites, Wizards, Wu-Jen, or other Base or Prestige Classes that grant Vancian-style spellcasting. No Fighter, Paladin, Monk, Complete Warrior Samurai, or Truenamer. The Penny Dreadfuls' homebrewed Warmarked Class is the only homebrew allowed. No Taint rules will be used, so no Prestige Classes relying on Taint are allowed.


Dream Dwarf, Desert Gnome, Darfellan, Star Elf, Hellbred (spirit), Jermlaine, Gold Dwarf, Asherati, Stonehunter Gnome, Mongrelfolk, Forestlord Half-Elf, Illumian, Aventi, Killoren, Daelkyr Half-Blood, Skarn, Underfolk, Spellscale, Silverbrow Human, Elan, Stonefire Dwarf, Jungle Halfling, Kenku, Desert Half-Orc, Nezumi, Arctic Kobold, River Spirit Folk, Changeling, Azurin, Kalashtar, Ghostwise Halfling, Shifter, Water Halfling, Lesser Aasimar, Duskling, Warforged, Raptoran, Neraphim, Neanderthal(1), and Maenad. That is the complete allowed list.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 12:22 AM
Will your DM allow Daring Outlaw to stack with Psychic Rogue instead of Rogue? That way you can take a 2-level dip in Swashbuckler and still gain full Grace, Dodge and Sneak Attack. (For a SB 2/PR 18 build, anyway.)

gallagher
2010-07-11, 12:47 AM
oh, no TOB? changing the build around a little to be a bloodstorm blade, fill in a little master thrower, get palm throw. throw kitchen knives and have them return (cleavers are cooler than daggers).

i dont know how i would fit in psyrogue though. or if i did i wouldnt add swash

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 01:27 AM
oh, no TOB? changing the build around a little to be a bloodstorm blade, fill in a little master thrower, get palm throw. throw kitchen knives and have them return (cleavers are cooler than daggers).

i dont know how i would fit in psyrogue though. or if i did i wouldnt add swash

Isn't Bloodstorm Blade ToB?

gallagher
2010-07-11, 01:32 AM
Isn't Bloodstorm Blade ToB?

when i said "oh, no ToB" i meant it to sound like i was regretting that tidbit

Person_Man
2010-07-11, 10:21 AM
A Psychic Rogue 20 gets 1d6 more Sneak Attack, an extra Special Ability, an extra psionic power, and 24 extra power points compared to a Psychic Rogue 17/Swashbuckler 3. The Psychic Rogue 17/Swashbuckler 3 gets a bonus feat and Insightful Strike (Int to damage with some weapons). So I think it's clear that there's really no reason to mix Swashbuckler with Psychic Rogue.

Anywho, looking at your list of options, it looks like your best bets are Psion, Psychic Warrior, Psychic Rogue, Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, and the various prestige classes that complement them. There are a ton of options within that set, although I would say that a thrown weapon build will have a somewhat more difficult time without Bloodstorm Blade or Hulking Hurler (which requires a Large race).

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 11:08 AM
What prestige classes would complement a Psychic Rogue? I'm not terribly familiar with Psychic classes in general...

EDIT: GM just informed me that Psychic Rogue isn't an option, so I think Psychic Warrior would be my best bet. So, for Prestige classes, I'd be looking either for something that grants full BAB, some sort of unarmored benefit, or some tricky abilities, possibly including stealth or even just a better skill list.

So as of right now, no PsyRogue, going PsyWarrior instead, looking for PrC's that add to either martial or stealth capability.

Jergmo
2010-07-11, 11:12 AM
What prestige classes would complement a Psychic Rogue? I'm not terribly familiar with Psychic classes in general...

Ebon Saint (Complete Psionic) is pretty okay, even though it sacrifices a manifestor level.

Edit: Oh. Well...what a stinker!

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 12:25 PM
Since you can no longer be a PsyRogue, you seem to have two choices:

1) Stay Int-Focused: This will mean dumping Psywar, and instead being a Psion/Slayer, preferably an Egoist, Telepath or Seer for plenty of self-buffing and melee ability.

2) Become Wis-Focused: This will mean tossing Swashbuckler (it no longer has synergy with anything you want to do), and picking up either Psywar or Ardent (or even both) with some sweet melee-oriented mantles.

While combining Psywar and Swashbuckler is an option, it is not one I recommend - as above, the classes have little to no synergy at all.

Though Fighters are banned, Rangers do not seem to be. Either argue that a dip will not grant "Vancian style-casting," or use the non-casting Ranger variant in CWar. That way, you can use them to get the Track feat for free to qualify for Slayer in either build. If not, just spend a feat on Track and qualify regardless - Slayer is JTU for a psionic gish.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 01:12 PM
What would be the best way to do a Seer/Slayer? Would this include Swashbuckler at all, or would I just skip that?

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 01:17 PM
What would be the best way to do a Seer/Slayer? Would this include Swashbuckler at all, or would I just skip that?

Well, the nice thing about psionics is the lack of ASF - so once you get heavy armor proficiency (e.g. through Slayer) you can feel free to wear it and "cast" just fine. This makes finessing and Dex-builds less attractive, and therefore Swashbuckler loses some of its oomph.

Having said that, it's still your character concept. Do you want to be the agile fencer-type? Or do you just want to be good at melee and are open in terms of how you get there?

Ernir
2010-07-11, 01:17 PM
What would be the best way to do a Seer/Slayer? Would this include Swashbuckler at all, or would I just skip that?
Skip it. Ability score synergy is good to have, but having more manifester levels is a whole lot better.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 01:35 PM
Skip it. Ability score synergy is good to have, but having more manifester levels is a whole lot better.

Actually, given that Fighter/Paladin/Samurai are banned (and Ranger might be as well, though my fingers are crossed), he may need a dip to reach that 4th iterative. The only psionic base classes with full BAB are 3rd party.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 01:59 PM
Well, the nice thing about psionics is the lack of ASF - so once you get heavy armor proficiency (e.g. through Slayer) you can feel free to wear it and "cast" just fine. This makes finessing and Dex-builds less attractive, and therefore Swashbuckler loses some of its oomph.

Having said that, it's still your character concept. Do you want to be the agile fencer-type? Or do you just want to be good at melee and are open in terms of how you get there?

I'd like to be able to do things besides just hitting things, or getting bigger and hitting things more.

Wearing plate and being a bruiser is fine, as long as my psionic powers and skill lists open up more options.

I think Rangers are ok, but I'll check with the DM.

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 02:07 PM
I'd like to be able to do things besides just hitting things, or getting bigger and hitting things more.

Wearing plate and being a bruiser is fine, as long as my psionic powers and skill lists open up more options.

Like what? Psions can just about do it all, even moreso if you add in powers like metamorphosis. Do you want to blast? Be the knowledge/divination guy? Party face? Control the battlefield? Play God?


I think Rangers are ok, but I'll check with the DM.

Remember to (a) emphasize that a dip won't get you any vancian magic, and (b) show him the martial variant (CWar page 13) if he stays skeptical.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-11, 04:00 PM
Stealth would be a nice secondary. As would a few different forms of scrying, and some form of ranged enhancement (squirreling Psionic Shot in there would be excellent, and anything that supports it.)
My initial concept was a Sniper, but a few things have derailed that. Getting back into that vein would be nice.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-12, 02:03 AM
So, it looks like Psion (seer)/Slayer/Ranger?

Along with Psionic Shot and whatever else I can get to improve ranged attacks?

WinWin
2010-07-12, 02:35 AM
The master thrower prestige class will allow you to spam a lot of ranged attacks.

Halfling is an optimal race for ranged shenanigans.

Quick draw is a must.

Mix up ranged weapon attacks with the occasional alchemical item.

Combine Agilomancer with stealth in order to create a machine-gun commando build. Hit and run, cover, basic traps and ambush are your strengths. Force enemies to respond to your tactics rather than responding to theirs.

Major counters are cover, concealment and melee lockdowns.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-12, 02:53 PM
What exactly is the Agilomancer? That's not a term I'm familiar with...
And what would be a good race from the list I'm allowed? Ghostwise Halfling is on there, but I have no idea what it is.

Cieyrin
2010-07-12, 06:59 PM
What exactly is the Agilomancer? That's not a term I'm familiar with...
And what would be a good race from the list I'm allowed? Ghostwise Halfling is on there, but I have no idea what it is.

Ghostwise Halfling is a FR race that replaces Halfling Luck bonus with 20' limited telepathy, more-or-less. Check the FRCS for 'em.

For other options, Kenku (MM3, I think) and Water Halflings (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/elementalRacialVariants.htm#waterHalflings) are fairly decent for what you seem to be going for.

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-12, 08:57 PM
Kenku.

Definitely Kenku. I've always like the little ravenish bastards.
So, starting off as a Psion, what powers in particular should I be looking at? Or should I start with Ranger?

Optimystik
2010-07-12, 09:23 PM
Ranger gets 6+Int skills so I would definitely start there. You'll also be able to wear armor and shields throughout your psion career.

WinWin
2010-07-13, 01:36 AM
Agilomancer refers to skills and feats that add to mobility in order to create a character great with movement. Obviously, magic items that boost movement or give bonuses to movement skills are great, but they are not something you can plan for. Some DM's don't have magic shops and the like in their games.

Tumble, to a lesser extent Balance, Jump, Climb, Escape Artist and Swim. Tumble is great for moving through threatened areas and even opponents spaces, maxing out tumble will give you a bonus to full defense and fighting defensively. The other skills synergise well or relate to movement. You are at a disadvantage while balancing, swimming, squeezing or climbing. Then again, most creatures are at a disadvantage in those situations, so by having ranks in those skills you are giving yourself an advantage against a lot of opponents. Another benefit is that they allow your character to hide (and snipe) from positions that are difficult to access.

Iferus
2010-07-13, 01:54 AM
Have you taken a look at the Lurk from Complete Psionic? It's got both stealth and psionics. You might like it :)

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-13, 02:02 AM
Have you taken a look at the Lurk from Complete Psionic? It's got both stealth and psionics. You might like it :)

I have not, but I seem to recall it being unfavorably mentioned for some reason...

How does it stack up to a Ranger/Psion/Slayer?