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View Full Version : EVIL Bard build that doesnt use sorc casting?



gallagher
2010-07-11, 02:04 PM
hey all,
i was wondering, is there a good bard build for a specific flavor?
i am having the party i am DMing for go into a town that has a missing children problem. when they get into the town, i am going to give them an option, if they come across it, to use a bard who knows everything about the town to help. he will be leading them through the sewers, using his pipe to buff them throughout the encounters. until they get to the main room that is.

in the main room, they will get to an alter, where the bard will turn on them. he will be summoning dire rats and undead children. i just dont know how to make him powerful enough to be a challenge to a group of 5-6 level 5 characters, if there is a build that i could base this off of, and how he would control undead children (i can UMD a wand to summon the rats i know)

any help anyone can give would be very appreciated :)

Prodan
2010-07-11, 02:09 PM
And you don't want "sorc casting" because...?

Optimystik
2010-07-11, 02:10 PM
I agree with Prodan, you're going to want magic to pull this off. You could UMD a bunch of stuff - which the party will then have if they flatten this guy. (Very likely unless he significantly outlevels them.)

gallagher
2010-07-11, 02:14 PM
I agree with Prodan, you're going to want magic to pull this off. You could UMD a bunch of stuff - which the party will then have if they flatten this guy. (Very likely unless he significantly outlevels them.)
mainly because there is already too much offensive spellcasting, and these guys are at a pretty low level, so he wont have high enough of levels to be getting those higher level sorc spells that make it powerful. i was hoping more for straight bard (as i am trying to make him the pied piper)

lsfreak
2010-07-11, 02:20 PM
Control the children with charm person + diplomacy in life, who are then willingly turned into undead. Essentially make it a cult, a whole bunch of people that have effectively been brainwashed into believing certain things; those people just happen to be children (which, really, makes them easier to control). Becoming undead is romanticized so that 'only the special ones get it,' or something like that, so that it's a completely willing transformation.

Use him to buff the things his summons. He shouldn't do a whole lot of fighting, rather use him with Inspire Courage boosting to make the children much stronger. At 2nd level he gets the Summon Swarm spell, which can summon the rats, and be maintained thanks to Melodic Casting (Complete Mage). Invisibility will help keep him alive, and either Inspire Courage nor swarm-summoning breaks it.

woodenbandman
2010-07-11, 02:20 PM
Have an ambush waiting. The bard is genre-savvy enough to know that if he goes 1v5 he'll get killed. Have thugs waiting, and the bard is innocuously playing music, and, oh look, the thugs deal +3d6 fire damage on their attacks.

mabriss lethe
2010-07-11, 02:21 PM
well, the feat Requiem comes to mind. (allows bardic music to affect undead) which is also a prerequisite for the Dirgesinger prestige class.

CirclesAllOver
2010-07-11, 02:21 PM
The Requiem feat lets your bardic music affect undead which would mean, inspire courage(or whatever) his undead children.

And then, for the summoning rats, you could have his instrument enchanted to do that. It could be one of those "Have x ranks in a perform skill or gain a temporary negative level" if you wanted. Or even have a alignment restriction.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 02:27 PM
mainly because there is already too much offensive spellcasting, and these guys are at a pretty low level, so he wont have high enough of levels to be getting those higher level sorc spells that make it powerful. i was hoping more for straight bard (as i am trying to make him the pied piper)

My memory fails me: What happens when you make a Dirgesinger?


The Requiem feat lets your bardic music affect undead which would mean, inspire courage(or whatever) his undead children.

And then, for the summoning rats, you could have his instrument enchanted to do that. It could be one of those "Have x ranks in a perform skill or gain a temporary negative level" if you wanted. Or even have a alignment restriction.

Pipes of the Sewers?

hamishspence
2010-07-11, 02:59 PM
The Gray Jester is a fey monster that looks more like a clown than a bard- but its special feature is turning beings in "bleak ones" under its control, by draining them of charisma.

It's in Heroes of Horror. And is CR4 at base. Could be upgraded.

Munchkin-Masher
2010-07-11, 03:21 PM
The Gray Jester is a fey monster that looks more like a clown than a bard- but its special feature is turning beings in "bleak ones" under its control, by draining them of charisma.

It's in Heroes of Horror. And is CR4 at base. Could be upgraded.

The Gray Jester is a pretty cool monster.

Read the small story called "Grandma's House" or something like that, it's in Heroes of Horror too.

hamishspence
2010-07-11, 03:55 PM
Read the small story called "Grandma's House" or something like that, it's in Heroes of Horror too.

I did.

While the concept of being eaten alive is nasty- it can always be made worse.

Prodan
2010-07-11, 04:14 PM
Just add bears. Everything is worse with bears (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingsWorseWithBears).

hamishspence
2010-07-11, 04:54 PM
If the villain has powerful mind control powers, they can force a character to eat themselves, bit by bit.

In the children's story, Which Witch by Iva Ibbotson, the witches, in order to impress the Evil Wizard and win his hand, have to do a piece of magic- ideally both powerful and evil. Most impressive magic user gets the wizard.

The second most impressive one involves summoning up a horde of giant rats, transforming them into skeletons and back, and having them eat each other. Finally there's one huge rat left alive- which starts to eat itself- until there's nothing left but a pair of dripping jaws- which vanishes.

I suspect "it's magic" covers the physical difficulties of this.

gorfnab
2010-07-11, 05:14 PM
You said 5 level 5-6 characters...
Bard 6/ Dirgesinger 4 or 5 with Requiem (LM) and Arcane Disciple (CD): Necromancer Domain (ECS). Depending on how optimized you group is and how many undead the thing is controlling, this could be a very challenging boss or a push over.

Rixx
2010-07-11, 06:11 PM
You're the DM? Then you don't need a way for him to control the rats and undead children. He can just do it.

gallagher
2010-07-11, 06:48 PM
You're the DM? Then you don't need a way for him to control the rats and undead children. He can just do it.

in the event that there is something that i would need to use to control them, i would have to be able to give the players that as loot

lsfreak
2010-07-11, 07:01 PM
in the event that there is something that i would need to use to control them, i would have to be able to give the players that as loot

His point is you can just give him the ability Ex: Can control these rats and undead because I said so, no item or class or anything needed.

You don't need to do that, though. Even at 5th level, he can be running with a +14 diplomacy without any trouble at all (8 ranks, 4cha, 2 masterwork item), and children pretty much have a built-in -5 penalty to diplomacy because they tend to be very curious and/or trusting.

chiasaur11
2010-07-11, 07:05 PM
in the event that there is something that i would need to use to control them, i would have to be able to give the players that as loot

An innate knack?

Diplomacy?

I mean, that's how Vetinari controlled rats.

ninjaneer003
2010-07-11, 07:12 PM
Could just give the bard the abilities and not give an explination as to why he has them. As a NPC his abilities don't have to go with the norm that other players have to work within and you can give him all the abilities you want so long as you can in your mind rationalize why he would have them

gallagher
2010-07-11, 08:17 PM
ah, well then that solves those problems. how does this look for a build then?

straight bard, with perform flute. have him around level 9 (level 7 he gets summon monster 3, which will get 1d4+1 rats) and have him diplomosized a bunch of kids... oooo that will be fun :)

now i just gotta get a few encounters in the sewers and build the dungeon and figure out the loot :)

hamishspence
2010-07-12, 02:36 AM
The Mob rules in Cityscape could be used to represent a crowd of attacking kids- makes it a bit more challenging.

mint
2010-07-12, 04:31 AM
I think your idea is really snazzy.
I guess this comes of as sort of patronizing either way so I'll just ask right out, why do you feel like you have to stat the way he controls the children and the rats?
Even if he does it with an item, I mean, its still up to you whether the players get it as loot.

taltamir
2010-07-12, 06:17 AM
1. why does the evil villain has to be a bard?
2. why do the PCs KNOW the CLASS of the evil villain?
3. when you say sorc casting you mean the bard's ability to cast spells? if you don't want that then the only thing you have is magical music left... huh?
4. a balanced party of level 5 pcs is a dangerous force against a SINGLE opponent, even if higher level, unless he is a primary caster of a higher level, utilizing more broken spells that are not available to the party. A better challenge would be for it to have cohorts.
5. If you give it cohorts (say, a cleric, and 2 fighters), then make sure they are not wearing too many magic items... they can get some buffs from potions and the like. This avoids giving your PCs too much money.

nedz
2010-07-12, 08:28 AM
You could create a modified Pipes of the Sewers ?
The version in the DMG summons Rat Swarms, but you could enhance that via a single custom item.

gallagher
2010-07-12, 01:31 PM
1. why does the evil villain has to be a bard?
2. why do the PCs KNOW the CLASS of the evil villain?
3. when you say sorc casting you mean the bard's ability to cast spells? if you don't want that then the only thing you have is magical music left... huh?
4. a balanced party of level 5 pcs is a dangerous force against a SINGLE opponent, even if higher level, unless he is a primary caster of a higher level, utilizing more broken spells that are not available to the party. A better challenge would be for it to have cohorts.
5. If you give it cohorts (say, a cleric, and 2 fighters), then make sure they are not wearing too many magic items... they can get some buffs from potions and the like. This avoids giving your PCs too much money.

1) because it is the pied piper. he got all the children in town with a flute. that and bards can be fun, or so i have heard
2) they dont really, they know he is a guide and that he seems to know everything. and he is oddly charming
3)i mean no sorc casting as in a good build where people arent planning on taking a PrC that gives him 9th level casting.
4) they are fighting him, a bunch of children that were dominated/charmed/diplomosized into fanaticism, as well as a bunch of fiendish dire rats. that and there will be encounters that will be taxing on their resources throughout this mission in the sewers.
5)i was actually thinking of giving each child a level of commoner and a level of rogue. it wont make them too challenging, but it will make things not as easy on the party