Crazy theory time

[Illsbane]

Alright, like the title says, this is just a crazy theory I have.

Blackwing saw that, inside the OOTS world, there is another world, yes? From everything that has been said about the Snarl, it is not huge in the brains department. How likely is it that it would create an illusion of the old world to sucker people into stepping into its prison and hence, oblivion?

I'm going to assume that this chance is nil.

Here comes the crazy theory. What if the gods of the west weren't killed at all?

All the pantheons had their own ideas about how to govern their joint creation, none of them were willing to play together and share nicely. Who wants to bet they were still scheming on ways to take their creation for themselves around the time the Snarl supposedly got loose and started its campaign of deicide and world-destruction?

The gods of north, east and south saw the gods of the west get killed, but I am willing to bet they didn't get too close to check for a pulse once they saw that here was something which could kill them with impunity. Immortals usually hate that sort of thing.
Likewise, they did nothing to save their world or its inhabitants, even though they supposedly heard the screams of the dying and prayers for salvation, after the Snarl touched the world.

The three pantheons of the OOTS world do not know with full certainty that the pantheon of the west was killed. They do not know that their world was destroyed. They just spun a new world around the Snarl, locking it in.

What if the Snarl was all one big hoax created by the pantheon of the west? By making it look as if they'd been killed, they'd terrify the other pantheons into staying away. By making it look as if the world was gone and somehow blocking it from the senses of the other pantheons, they could make them stay even further away.

The Snarl could be nothing more than an illusory boogeyman that keeps the first creation safe for the pantheon of the west to rule in perfect solitude.

Putting a new world around the old one just makes sure that no one is going to find out about their big trick. When the holes in the 'prison' appeared, the pantheon of the west could have lashed out just enough to convince people to patch the holes, and allow them to continue in their perfect isolation.


I'm not sure this is fully correct, but it's a theory I wanted to share. I await your rebuttal. ^^

[Magicyop]

Alright, like the title says, this is just a crazy theory I have.

Blackwing saw that, inside the OOTS world, there is another world, yes? From everything that has been said about the Snarl, it is not huge in the brains department. How likely is it that it would create an illusion of the old world to sucker people into stepping into its prison and hence, oblivion?

I'm going to assume that this chance is nil.

Here comes the crazy theory. What if the gods of the west weren't killed at all?

All the pantheons had their own ideas about how to govern their joint creation, none of them were willing to play together and share nicely. Who wants to bet they were still scheming on ways to take their creation for themselves around the time the Snarl supposedly got loose and started its campaign of deicide and world-destruction?

The gods of north, east and south saw the gods of the west get killed, but I am willing to bet they didn't get too close to check for a pulse once they saw that here was something which could kill them with impunity. Immortals usually hate that sort of thing.
Likewise, they did nothing to save their world or its inhabitants, even though they supposedly heard the screams of the dying and prayers for salvation, after the Snarl touched the world.

The three pantheons of the OOTS world do not know with full certainty that the pantheon of the west was killed. They do not know that their world was destroyed. They just spun a new world around the Snarl, locking it in.

What if the Snarl was all one big hoax created by the pantheon of the west? By making it look as if they'd been killed, they'd terrify the other pantheons into staying away. By making it look as if the world was gone and somehow blocking it from the senses of the other pantheons, they could make them stay even further away.

The Snarl could be nothing more than an illusory boogeyman that keeps the first creation safe for the pantheon of the west to rule in perfect solitude.

Putting a new world around the old one just makes sure that no one is going to find out about their big trick. When the holes in the 'prison' appeared, the pantheon of the west could have lashed out just enough to convince people to patch the holes, and allow them to continue in their perfect isolation.


I'm not sure this is fully correct, but it's a theory I wanted to share. I await your rebuttal. ^^

....Nice. That actually makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

[Erts]

snip

The gods of the east. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) Sorry, just had to say that.

I think that it has possible merit, but probably not. Rather, maybe the gods of the east are not actually dead, instead, they are trapped in the world inside of the rift.

[Niveus Candidus]

....Nice. That actually makes a lot of sense. I wouldn't be surprised if this was true.

How do we even know there is an illusion of a snarl? For all we know, the other Gods imprisoned those of the West and constructed so story about a scribble pattern. At this point, we have less information about the planet than the MitD ... and that still has us scratching our heads in a good way.

[Teleporker]

I like your theory. I am a fan of crazy theories and conspiracies myself. I make a lot of them, and nobody ever pays attention.

So, the gods ruling a world inside the world just so they won't be bothered? This is the world where Odin wanted Banjo to join his pantheon, so it actually makes sense.

As for rebuttal, I do have some. The rifts.

It was the other gods who created a new world around the Snarl, and left accidental rifts here and there. If the gods of the east really wanted isolation, why not simply seal the rifts from the inside?

I once posted my own theory on the matter though (and no one even replied... sniff...).

Basically, if we do believe the original story, the Snarl tried to reach out through the rifts and kill whatever was around. Then came the order of the scribble, and sealed the rifts.

Now, think about it from the Snarl's point of view. You are a mass of pure chaos and hate. You at least had five little outlets to let loose on whatever you could reach, and now even that is gone. The years go by, and being nothing but chaos, you are suddenly left without purpose. What do you do with yourself?

Chaos and order can't really exist without each other. Make too much racket, and at least one guy will be fed up with it enough to try to put things into order. Likewise, have too much order, and at least one guy will go into chaos mode.

So, in its solitude, I think the snarl has been trying to make sense of itself. It is made of reality threads and world pieces after all. Think about it. Order is the destruction of chaos, so if chaos tries to destroy itself, it becomes order.

So, how would this be any fun? Too much order will eventually blow up into maximum chaos. Disturb things but a little, and the snarl lives again! MWA_HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[Illsbane]

As for rebuttal, I do have some. The rifts.

It was the other gods who created a new world around the Snarl, and left accidental rifts here and there. If the gods of the east really wanted isolation, why not simply seal the rifts from the inside?

Because that would spoil the illusion. A completely chaotic, berserk killing entity would not be expected to perform the orderly act of patching up damage to its prison, and if it did, it would give the other pantheons a bonus to disbelieve its existence the size of a banker's end of year bonus.

Another possibility is that they couldn't quite work up that power. The patch of spacetime supposedly inhabited by the Snarl was shunted off into a pocket dimension where most of its divine power was nulled, right? If the pantheon of the east really is in there, they may have the world, but they would not have the same power they used to. Maybe they think it's a fair trade, though.


I once posted my own theory on the matter though (and no one even replied... sniff...).

I feel for you, but I don't think I ever saw it. I've been away from the forum for a while. ^^;


Now, think about it from the Snarl's point of view. You are a mass of pure chaos and hate. You at least had five little outlets to let loose on whatever you could reach, and now even that is gone. The years go by, and being nothing but chaos, you are suddenly left without purpose. What do you do with yourself?

Chaos and order can't really exist without each other. Make too much racket, and at least one guy will be fed up with it enough to try to put things into order. Likewise, have too much order, and at least one guy will go into chaos mode.

So, in its solitude, I think the snarl has been trying to make sense of itself. It is made of reality threads and world pieces after all. Think about it. Order is the destruction of chaos, so if chaos tries to destroy itself, it becomes order.

So, how would this be any fun? Too much order will eventually blow up into maximum chaos. Disturb things but a little, and the snarl lives again! MWA_HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Hmmm, interesting theory. Though the original story (as handed down by the wholly untrustworthy (in my opinion, anyway) pantheons) indicates the Snarl was too crazy-chaotic for any kind of ordered act. Still, with enough time...

[LuPuWei]

Here's another issue, Soon and the Order of the Scribble have seen and fought the Snarl. This is shown clearly in the crayon drawings. Assuming they represent Shojo's interpretation of whatever Soon told him, either Soon would have to be in on the hoax (the real reason for his feud with Girard?) or the Eastern Gods would have to be willing to randomly attack Soon's girlfriend to maintain their ruse...

[Illsbane]

Here's another issue, Soon and the Order of the Scribble have seen and fought the Snarl. This is shown clearly in the crayon drawings. Assuming they represent Shojo's interpretation of whatever Soon told him, either Soon would have to be in on the hoax (the real reason for his feud with Girard?) or the Eastern Gods would have to be willing to randomly attack Soon's girlfriend to maintain their ruse...

Or else the illusion took him in completely. Any ruse powerful enough to fool three pantheons would be too powerful for even the most well-intentioned Paladin.

Also, what about the pantheons makes you think they wouldn't kill to get their own way? Kill Soon's wife to keep a secret, create whole disposable species for their Clerics to kill so they could become more powerful... All in a day's work for the celestial jerks.

[LuPuWei]

Or else the illusion took him in completely. Any ruse powerful enough to fool three pantheons would be too powerful for even the most well-intentioned Paladin.

Very true. However,


Also, what about the pantheons makes you think they wouldn't kill to get their own way? Kill Soon's wife to keep a secret, create whole disposable species for their Clerics to kill so they could become more powerful... All in a day's work for the celestial jerks.

It's one thing to wage celestial war, initiate barmy and sadistic rituals of worship or even construct entire species (I assume you mean goblins, etc) for the sole purpose of entertaining your minions- all very large, heavy-handed and permanent gestures of ruthlessness. It just seems a bit much to wander around creating or waiting for random rifts to appear so you can use what has to be the most ellaborate illusion every concieved to whack a woman who, on top of being an NPC in a flashback, was up to that point, less than plot critical.

I hence invoke O-Chul's razor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). Why go through so much trouble?

Now you can reason that they spent all of their other-God-free time within the world calculating which exact human to piss off so they would have a human rift-sealing workforce doing their stitching for them, but it still seems flimsy at best.

I'm not arguing against the Gods-in-the-Rift theory as a whole, mind you...

Oh, and, wife, yes sorry :smallredface:

[Illsbane]

It just seems a bit much to wander around creating or waiting for random rifts to appear so you can use what has to be the most ellaborate illusion every concieved to whack a woman who, on top of being an NPC in a flashback, was up to that point, less than plot critical.

I hence invoke O-Chul's razor (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0546.html). Why go through so much trouble?

Now you can reason that they spent all of their other-God-free time within the world calculating which exact human to piss off so they would have a human rift-sealing workforce doing their stitching for them, but it still seems flimsy at best.

I'm not arguing against the Gods-in-the-Rift theory as a whole, mind you...

If my theory is correct, then the killing of whoever came close to the rifts wouldn't have to be all that deliberate. "First come, first annihilated out of existence", it could be that simple -- and completely in keeping with the illusion of the Snarl as a chaotic killing machine. Seemingly random slaughter sows panic. Panic dulls reason and causes people to respond to their fears, their anger, and all such emotions. Which would neatly play into the hands of the gods of the east.

In short: it didn't matter who or what was killed. Sooner or later, the body count would be noticed, and someone would do something about the rifts.

As for the rifts... The backstory as told by Shojo indicated the rifts came into being because of the equivalent of wear and tear, right? Or am I remembering that wrong...?
Of course an alternate crazy theory could be that the gods of the east found their powers mostly nulled and fought to get out of the unexpected prison around their toy world, using the most destructive forces they could still muster, thus creating the rifts -- and incidentally obliterating anything that came near them. All acceptable collateral damage, of course...
After the gates were set up, they could have either been too exhausted to fight anymore, or the gates really prevented them from detecting the rifts.

[Swordpriest]

The question is, if this theory is going to hold up -- do the gods of the west really have the power to destroy someone's soul along with their body? If they don't -- and the other gods don't seem to, so it's logical to assume that they don't either -- then why was Kraagor un-resurrectable if there really is no Snarl to be killed by? :smallconfused:

[Alagaesian]

I see a problem.

"They knew that when their beautiful world's life was cut short, all the many threads of reality that had been woven into it were released." Then they used the released threads to make the new world as the Snarl's prison.

This suggests that their aren't enough reality-threads to make two worlds plus a Snarl, which would have to happen for the Gods of the East to have their own world inside of the 'real' one. Even if we assume that the Snarl is a gigantic illusion from the get-go, the threads from the first world were still released. How can that world exist without the threads that form it?

I can't help but think that this world within a world has something to do with Kraagor getting trapped in the Snarl's demiplane when Dorukan sealed that one gate. After all, it has been theorized that the gods are more vulnerable to the Snarl's wrath than mortals of a similar level. And, since Dorukan had control of epic magic, why wouldn't the rest of the party also be epic? At least Kraagor might have had a reasonable chance with a one-on-one tussle with the Snarl, as opposed to the NPC civilians that were gobbled up when they walked a little to close to the rifts.

I have no idea what Kraagor might have done to turn the Snarl into another world, but the theory still makes sense. Plus, think of how plotalicious it would be if Girand got involved.

OotStick Member: Oh, by the way, we found out that Kraagor is still alive.
Girand: WHAT? Soon didn't kill him?

Plus, we've seen Dorukan, Lirian, Girand (via illusion) and Soon (in spirit) outside of flashback form. We may end up seeing everyone from the Order of the Scribble, Kraagor included.

[TriForce]

the main problem with this theory is that according to the official story, the remaining gods could only remake the world around the snarl becouse the threads of the old world were undone, thats also why they didnt solve the rifts, the world needed to be destroyed before that would be possible. according to your theory, the old world still exists, and that would have made it impossible for a new world to be made

[Illsbane]

This is a valid objection. I can only counter with questions.

Can the pantheons distinguish between threads? There seemed to be ever so many of them around, even during the times of creation. And if so, would they have dared to go close enough to the Snarl to check whether the threads surrounding it were the ones they spun their original world out of? Wasn't there a limitless amount of threads around to spin from?

[Fitzclowningham]

The gods made the first world out of nothing; why not make another from scratch?

[farland]

The snarl is chaos. When it is alone in a void of nothing, nothing is the new order. Thus to go against order it must create something. mwhahahaha:smallwink:

[mizzim]

I like your theory. I am a fan of crazy theories and conspiracies myself. I make a lot of them, and nobody ever pays attention.

So, the gods ruling a world inside the world just so they won't be bothered? This is the world where Odin wanted Banjo to join his pantheon, so it actually makes sense.

As for rebuttal, I do have some. The rifts.

It was the other gods who created a new world around the Snarl, and left accidental rifts here and there. If the gods of the east really wanted isolation, why not simply seal the rifts from the inside?

I once posted my own theory on the matter though (and no one even replied... sniff...).

Basically, if we do believe the original story, the Snarl tried to reach out through the rifts and kill whatever was around. Then came the order of the scribble, and sealed the rifts.

Now, think about it from the Snarl's point of view. You are a mass of pure chaos and hate. You at least had five little outlets to let loose on whatever you could reach, and now even that is gone. The years go by, and being nothing but chaos, you are suddenly left without purpose. What do you do with yourself?

Chaos and order can't really exist without each other. Make too much racket, and at least one guy will be fed up with it enough to try to put things into order. Likewise, have too much order, and at least one guy will go into chaos mode.

So, in its solitude, I think the snarl has been trying to make sense of itself. It is made of reality threads and world pieces after all. Think about it. Order is the destruction of chaos, so if chaos tries to destroy itself, it becomes order.

So, how would this be any fun? Too much order will eventually blow up into maximum chaos. Disturb things but a little, and the snarl lives again! MWA_HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

Yes... yes... YES!!! This is the theory that I think makes the most sense!

[Cealocanth]

[snip]

I'm not sure this is fully correct, but it's a theory I wanted to share. I await your rebuttal. ^^

Your theory makes sense. Perhaps that's why there is a planet within the planet when someone looks inside Soon's rift. Because there's no god-destroying monster there, it's just World 1.0, ruled by the gods of the East.

All the pieces fall together as far as I can tell. The current lore of the OOTS universe says otherwise, however. We will see.

[LuPuWei]

Of course an alternate crazy theory could be that the gods of the east found their powers mostly nulled and fought to get out of the unexpected prison around their toy world, using the most destructive forces they could still muster, thus creating the rifts -- and incidentally obliterating anything that came near them. All acceptable collateral damage, of course...
After the gates were set up, they could have either been too exhausted to fight anymore, or the gates really prevented them from detecting the rifts.

I personally think, this would make more sense- maybe a reference to other mythologies replacing Greek as the standard for mythical adventures (in western cultures, that is...)

[Obani]

I totally agree that the Snarl doesn't actually exist, but I don't have any fully-formed theories on how or why the myth came into being.

[TheBlackShadow]

My problem with this is that although its pretty sound and makes decent sense in-and-of-itself, it goes down to the very root of what happened before the beginning of the world, a subject which we have very little information about, and what we do have is pretty unreliable (re, Lord Shojo and his testimony, and the info that he / the Order of the Scribble / the Sapphire Guard / whatever got from the gods). Also, its very premise (ie, that EVERYTHING we have been lead to believe about the Snarl etc is completely wrong) is something that can only be proven in time.

So while yes, this does make sense and has a shot at being right, it is also far too much on the speculative side and has an equal or greater chance of being wrong. The bottom line is that we don't actually know anything.

Still though, good work on putting a lot of thought and effort into a theory that is actually pretty workable, unlike a lot of epileptic trees I've seen on the subject. :smallsmile:

[binyamin20]

I think Mijong (Soon's wife) would have noticed if the snarl was an illusion and not have been STABBED! No illusions can stab a person. None. Zero. Nada.

[monomer]

I think Mijong (Soon's wife) would have noticed if the snarl was an illusion and not have been STABBED! No illusions can stab a person. None. Zero. Nada.

I respectfully disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow) (See heading foe shadow spells). A couple examples of this type of spell are Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), and Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm), both of which are illusions that can cause real damage.

[ClockShock]

Now, think about it from the Snarl's point of view. You are a mass of pure chaos and hate.

I really don't think ANY of us are capable of thinking about things from the point of view of a mass of pure chaos and hate.
I doubt such beings in themselves are capable of thought.

In other news, i'm glad this is titled "Crazy theory time", but i'm surprised at how many people are coming out with things like, "yeah, that makes a lot of sense"
These theories contradict a great deal of everything we've been shown. If a thoery's merit is based on how much we think the comic is lying to us, we might as well believe that Xykon is from modern earth (or something about a space cat, i forget...)

[binyamin20]

I respectfully disagree (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#shadow) (See heading foe shadow spells). A couple examples of this type of spell are Shadow Conjuration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shadowConjuration.htm), and Shades (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shades.htm), both of which are illusions that can cause real damage.

Hrrm. Right you are.

[bobothegoat]

What if the gods of the west weren't killed at all?
This theory here has a lot of merit, despite it not being very interesting. I mean, the most recent comic has support of people still worshiping the west gods and them still being around. That, and there was never any evidence of them having been destroyed to begin with.

Unless you mean the Gods of the East (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html), in which case your theory becomes a bit more interesting and gets another layer of implausibility added on.

Also, I felt like nitpicking.

[Gift Jeraff]

Also, I felt like nitpicking.
And skipping the third post where someone already pointed that out.

[The Anarresti]

I see a problem.

"They knew that when their beautiful world's life was cut short, all the many threads of reality that had been woven into it were released." Then they used the released threads to make the new world as the Snarl's prison.

This suggests that their aren't enough reality-threads to make two worlds plus a Snarl, which would have to happen for the Gods of the East to have their own world inside of the 'real' one. Even if we assume that the Snarl is a gigantic illusion from the get-go, the threads from the first world were still released. How can that world exist without the threads that form it?

I can't help but think that this world within a world has something to do with Kraagor getting trapped in the Snarl's demiplane when Dorukan sealed that one gate. After all, it has been theorized that the gods are more vulnerable to the Snarl's wrath than mortals of a similar level. And, since Dorukan had control of epic magic, why wouldn't the rest of the party also be epic? At least Kraagor might have had a reasonable chance with a one-on-one tussle with the Snarl, as opposed to the NPC civilians that were gobbled up when they walked a little to close to the rifts.

I have no idea what Kraagor might have done to turn the Snarl into another world, but the theory still makes sense. Plus, think of how plotalicious it would be if Girand got involved.

OotStick Member: Oh, by the way, we found out that Kraagor is still alive.
Girand: WHAT? Soon didn't kill him?

Plus, we've seen Dorukan, Lirian, Girand (via illusion) and Soon (in spirit) outside of flashback form. We may end up seeing everyone from the Order of the Scribble, Kraagor included.

I love this. For one, it makes great sense, and for another, how awesome is the idea of the OoTS breaking through into the World in the World (henceforth referred to as WitW) and coming face-to-face with a friendly dwarf sitting back, drinking tea liquor.

[calar]

hm, I think you actually might be onto something, but not quite in the same way. Firstly, the other Gods witnessed the old world being destroyed by the Snarl, thus lowering the possibility that the old world would still exist. Still, I like the idea that the world seen by Blackwing is the old creation where the Western Gods might preside. I doubt if so it would be as complex as an elaborate hoax in order to make a world of their own however, sense otherwise the Gods could've left without need of a ruse. Anyway, should be interesting to see.

[Souhiro]

It has been said many times. Inside of the Rift is OUR world. But if it is... I HOPE Rich won't do some Photographic Comics, Like the ones of RPG-World Comic.

[hamishspence]

It was explicitly stated in the DStP commentaries, that it's not our world inside the rift.

That still leaves it open to be other things- but not that.

[Nimrod's Son]

It was explicitly stated in the DStP commentaries, that it's not our world inside the rift.

That still leaves it open to be other things- but not that.
Yep. Since it probably bears repeating, here's the full quote:


The book ends with a new mystery that reminds us of the larger crisis that the Order faces. Did Blackwing's vision prove that someone was lying about the Snarl, or is something going on in that prison that no one - maybe even the gods themselves - knows about? Only time will tell. By which I mean I will tell, but not, you know, for a good long while. Until then, the secret of the world-within-the-world (which no, is NOT our Earth) will remain unknown.

[super dark33]

the snarl found quite and tranquility in the jail, and turned himself to a world with the people he ''unmaked'' living in