[3.5] Whiplash builds

[Draxar]

Inspired by something someone said here a while back, I'm interested in the idea of a character inspired by Whiplash from Iron Man 2 (and various appearances in comics before that.

There are various ways to do this, but the one that appeals most to me is to take the Pyrokineticist (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/pyrokineticist.htm), and apply the variant rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625e) to it, to make it an Electrokineticist. Dual electro-whips (as there's nothing in the class suggesting you can't spend a second move action to make a second whip), hitting touch AC.

The question is though, what else to do. Minimum requirements for the class – Concentration 8 ranks, Knowledge (Psionics) 2 ranks, and either Craft (Alchemy) 1 rank or something more appropriate to an electrokineticist. Also need a single power point, and a roleplaying requirement – to have either destroyed something using electricity, or have been heavily subjected to electricity.

A single level of Electrokineticist gives you a pair of whips that you can summon with two move actions. The rest of the class gets you some nice things – extra damage on the whips, save-or-dies, but it's not essential. To get your power point you need to either be of a psionic race, or to have at least a level in a psionic class.

So, what else goes well with it? A single level of Psychic Warrior gets you both power points and armour. However, you'll want at least 15 dexterity for the various two weapon fighting feats, so lighter armour may be prefered. The psychoactive skin of ectoplasmic armour could be quite nice, from a style perspective, with the class.

Psiforged would also work with it – provides the neccessary power points, and allows you to plug in extra powers. However it'd mean no armour beyond the inherent +2, unless you were allowed to take a flaw to be a mithril or adamantium Psiforged.

I could see some of the Tome of Battle stuff going well with the concept, but it's a question of which things, as it needs to either fit with the electro-theme, or at least not break it.

There's the question of exactly what feats you can apply to the whips – you're making ranged touch attacks, and can apply whip related feats to it. Can you apply ranged attack related feats?

So, what can people suggest? I'm not really after the most broken build possible, just something interesting and efficient.

[Keld Denar]

Dragonfire Bard + Duel wield whips?

Bardsader with Aura of Chaos stance to reroll all of those yummy d6s that land on a 6?

You could take Dragontouched + Draconic Heritage(blue) + Dragonfire Inspiration to get electro-whips, then take levels of Crusader with Song of the White Raven to continue increasing your IC as you level.

Just an idea.

[Draz74]

I could see some of the Tome of Battle stuff going well with the concept, but it's a question of which things, as it needs to either fit with the electro-theme, or at least not break it.

You definitely need Mountain Hammer (or its higher-level upgrades), to represent breaking objects with ease.

[DragoonWraith]

My Chthonic Serpent (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Chthonic_Serpent) discipline may also be quite useful to you, if you don't mind homebrew.

[Draxar]

You definitely need Mountain Hammer (or its higher-level upgrades), to represent breaking objects with ease.


My Chthonic Serpent (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Chthonic_Serpent) discipline may also be quite useful to you, if you don't mind homebrew.

But can you do Martial Strikes with weapons that give you ranged touch attacks?

[Fax Celestis]

But can you do Martial Strikes with weapons that give you ranged touch attacks?

Whips are melee weapons, so yes, you can.

[gallagher]

My Chthonic Serpent (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Chthonic_Serpent) discipline may also be quite useful to you, if you don't mind homebrew.if this is the way you are going, which by my perusal looks very intriguing, i would suggest a crusader/warblade and get rid of stone dragon

[Draxar]

Whips are melee weapons, so yes, you can.

But if you are doing the Electrokineticist route, rather than Dragonfire Inspiration, then you're not using melee weapon whips. You're using lashes formed of unstable ectoplasm that do not attack using melee strikes, instead using ranged touch attacks. Sure, you can apply whip feats to them, but that's a specific exception, it doesn't make them melee weapons.

[Fax Celestis]

Fire Lash (Ps)

A pyrokineticist gains the ability to fashion a 15-foot-long whip of fire from unstable ectoplasm as a move-equivalent action. She takes no damage from a fire lash she creates, and if she releases her hold, it immediately dissipates. The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip. The whip remains in existence as long as the pyrokineticist holds it.


Whip

A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher. The whip is treated as a melee weapon with 15-foot reach, though you don’t threaten the area into which you can make an attack. In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).

Using a whip provokes an attack of opportunity, just as if you had used a ranged weapon.

You can make trip attacks with a whip. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the whip to avoid being tripped.

When using a whip, you get a +2 bonus on opposed attack rolls made to disarm an opponent (including the roll to keep from being disarmed if the attack fails).

You can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with a whip sized for you, even though it isn’t a light weapon for you.


Flame Blade
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Sword-like beam
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

A 3-foot-long, blazing beam of red-hot fire springs forth from your hand. You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks. The blade deals 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per two caster levels (maximum +10). Since the blade is immaterial, your Strength modifier does not apply to the damage. A flame blade can ignite combustible materials such as parchment, straw, dry sticks, and cloth.

The spell does not function underwater.

TeaL;DeeR: Flame Lash is flame blade, except with a whip and psychic.

[Draxar]

TeaL;DeeR: Flame Lash is flame blade, except with a whip and psychic.

No, it's not.

Fire Lash:

The lash deals 1d8 points of fire damage to a target within 15 feet on a successful ranged touch attack. A pyro can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization (if she otherwise meets the prerequisites) in conjunction with the fire lash, as well as any feats that apply to the use of a standard whip.

Whip:

The whip is treated as a melee weapon

Flame Blade:

You wield this bladelike beam as if it were a scimitar. Attacks with the flame blade are melee touch attacks.

A scimitar and a whip are both melee weapons. Flame blades are wielded as if they are scimitars, and their attacks are melee touch attacks.

Flame Lashes are not 'wielded as if they are whips', their description merely states that you can apply feats to them as if they were whips. And their attacks are ranged touch attacks. This means they are not melee weapons. This invalidates them from most of the Tome of Battle martial stuff.


My Chthonic Serpent (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Chthonic_Serpent) discipline may also be quite useful to you, if you don't mind homebrew.

If I end up doing this in a game, I doubt homebrew would be available. Plus, I wouldn't feel sufficiently able to assess your work for balance issues.

[sofawall]

So Fax, what you are saying is that since you can take Weapon Focus for the lash as if it was a whip, it must be a Flame Blade? :smallconfused:

[DragoonWraith]

If I end up doing this in a game, I doubt homebrew would be available. Plus, I wouldn't feel sufficiently able to assess your work for balance issues.
Fair enough, though most assessments thus far have been favorable comparing it to most ToB disciplines (with Devoted Spirit being a little better and Desert Wind and Stone Dragon being a little weaker, which is the norm).


Anyway, I think it would not be unreasonable at all to ask a DM to allow you to treat the Pyrokinetic's whips as, ya know, whips.

[Fax Celestis]

A scimitar and a whip are both melee weapons. Flame blades are wielded as if they are scimitars, and their attacks are melee touch attacks.

Flame Lashes are not 'wielded as if they are whips', their description merely states that you can apply feats to them as if they were whips. And their attacks are ranged touch attacks. This means they are not melee weapons. This invalidates them from most of the Tome of Battle martial stuff.

The concept of using a weapon you hold in your hands with feats that allow you to treat it like a whip (a melee weapon), but not a class feature that requires a melee weapon is patently ridiculous.

So Fax, what you are saying is that since you can take Weapon Focus for the lash as if it was a whip, it must be a Flame Blade? :smallconfused:
No. I'm saying flame blade is to scimitar as Fire Lash is to whip. It's the same thing, different source.

[arguskos]

Anyway, I think it would not be unreasonable at all to ask a DM to allow you to treat the Pyrokinetic's whips as, ya know, whips.
Really. A DM so pedantic to say "no no, those aren't whips, they're just identical to whips but they're totally not whips at all" is a DM who either hates you or has such a hard-on for pedantry and RAW that it makes reason weep. Don't be that DM, please, for the love of all that is holy, don't be that DM.

EDIT: Fax, Weapon Afire doesn't specify "melee weapon" and in fact nothing in the class does.

[sofawall]

No. I'm saying flame blade is to scimitar as Fire Lash is to whip. It's the same thing, different source.

Ah, ok. You're still wrong, but what you said makes more sense.

[Fax Celestis]

EDIT: Fax, Weapon Afire doesn't specify "melee weapon" and in fact nothing in the class does.

Not talking about Weapon Afire. I'm talking about maneuvers, which are, you know, class features.

The whole intention of making it a ranged touch attack is to let you use your Dexterity mod instead of your Strength mod on attack rolls without having finagly "use your dex score" text. The idea that you can THF Power Attack with a Fire Lash but can't use burning blade or flashing sun is downright ridiculous.

[Draxar]

Anyway, I think it would not be unreasonable at all to ask a DM to allow you to treat the Pyrokinetic's whips as, ya know, whips.

It wouldn't be unreasonable to ask, but it wouldn't be something I'd assume. They're at will 15 foot touch attacks that can reach a constant 5d6 damage if you have enough levels in the class.


Really. A DM so pedantic to say "no no, those aren't whips, they're just identical to whips but they're totally not whips at all" is a DM who either hates you or has such a hard-on for pedantry and RAW that it makes reason weep. Don't be that DM, please, for the love of all that is holy, don't be that DM.

I'm not a DM. And '1d6 flame damage on a touch attack' is not identical to '1d3 damage on a normal attack, and if they've got more than a tiny amount of armour, it does no damage'.

I am limiting myself to what I consider reasonable, not being limited or imposing limits upon others.


No. I'm saying flame blade is to scimitar as Fire Lash is to whip. It's the same thing, different source.

No, it's not. It's a similar thing, but it's not the same.


The whole intention of making it a ranged touch attack is to let you use your Dexterity mod instead of your Strength mod on attack rolls without having finagly "use your dex score" text. The idea that you can THF Power Attack with a Fire Lash but can't use burning blade or flashing sun is downright ridiculous.

I disagree. If they wanted to make it use your dexterity mod, they could just have said "This uses your dexterity mod".

Don't know what THF stands for, so can't comment on that. Mostly I go that the whips are sufficiently unstable, and don't behave as melee weapons do, such that you can't use them exactly as you use a melee weapon.

I think letting them be used as melee weapons for the purposes of manuvers would be a fine house rule for people who want such. But it's not what I'd come into a game assuming.

[Fax Celestis]

I am limiting myself to what I consider reasonable, not being limited or imposing limits upon others.


So you find it reasonable to assume that because something uses a ranged touch attack, it therefore must be a ranged weapon, despite the fact that it is a physical weapon you hold in your hands and never release for its use?

You find it reasonable to assume that because the class feature specifies "counts as a whip for feats" but doesn't say anything about class features, the designers who created it were doing so intentionally just to **** with people who wanted to do something interesting, rather than being forgetful, or having poor editing, or simply not considering that there could possibly be a class feature that specified "whip" or "melee weapon"?

[Keld Denar]

Don't know what THF stands for, so can't comment on that.


It means Two Handed Fighting, or the act of wielding one weapon in both hands. Whips are classified as a one handed weapon (rather than light weapon) so by RAW, you can use one in both hands like a longsword to gain the 2handed benefits from Str and Power Attack.

[Fax Celestis]

Don't know what THF stands for, so can't comment on that. Mostly I go that the whips are sufficiently unstable, and don't behave as melee weapons do, such that you can't use them exactly as you use a melee weapon.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/whip.png
Whips are one-handed melee weapons. You can use them like you use any other melee weapon.

You can Power Attack with a flame lash:

Can you use the Power Attack feat in combination with a whip?
Actually yes, this is also possible, since the whip is listed as a melee weapon.

Because the Pyrokineticist’s Fire Lash creates a whip of fire that requires only a touch attack, can you apply a Str bonus to the damage? Can you power attack with this special weapon?
It would seem so. The wording in the description of this psi-like ability indicates that you can take advantage of any feat that would apply to the use of a standard whip. Since one of those feats is Power Attack, then by reason, you must be able to apply your Strength bonus to the damage of a fire lash as well.
...and you can only power attack with melee weapons.


Power Attack [General]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)

A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Power Attack requires a melee weapon. If you can Power Attack with a flame lash, it is a melee weapon. If it is a melee weapon, then you can use maneuvers with it.

[Draxar]

So you find it reasonable to assume that because something uses a ranged touch attack, it therefore must be a ranged weapon, despite the fact that it is a physical weapon you hold in your hands and never release for its use?

Yes, from a mechanical point of view.


You find it reasonable to assume that because the class feature specifies "counts as a whip for feats" but doesn't say anything about class features, the designers who created it were doing so intentionally just to **** with people who wanted to do something interesting, rather than being forgetful, or having poor editing, or simply not considering that there could possibly be a class feature that specified "whip" or "melee weapon"?

No. I consider that unlimited duration 15 foot reach whips doing touch attacks are nasty enough to be limited somewhat.

And I find it reasonable to, in situations where I'm not sure, pick the less powerful option.

And I consider that something along the lines of "counts as a whip for all purposes" or "is treated as a whip in combat except for..." to be as easy to write as the much more limiting "You can use whip feats with it"

Enough. I don't think we're going to agree on this. I suggest we move on.

Does anyone have any other suggestions for things to do with the build, either with Tome of Battle or without – I will be unlikely to use the ToB stuff, but others might.

[Fax Celestis]

No. I consider that unlimited duration 15 foot reach whips doing touch attacks are nasty enough to be limited somewhat.

Oh no! Woe unto us now that a non-spellcaster might possibly acquire a Nice Thing™!

Spellcasters get to make touch attacks all the time, for damage and effects far and away better than 5d6 fire, from ranges up to a half a mile or more with perfect accuracy, and without using an element that is resisted by a full third of the monstrosities printed. God forbid a noncaster might get to do something that even pales in comparison!

[Draxar]

So, anyone got any other suggestions for things to do?

The cheeky part of me likes the idea of combining it with some sort of improved armour or other tech – take a Psiforged, and go with a Psionic Artificer, applying the ACFs of the Warforged Artificer to improve your ability to self-enhance.

Any other ways of doing the same sort of thing? Psychoactive skins could possibly work as 'suits' but I'm so-so on the usefulness of them to it.

[sofawall]

The idea that you can THF Power Attack with a Fire Lash but can't use burning blade or flashing sun is downright ridiculous.

But as the text says, it is true. The whole specific vs. general rules come into effect here, I think.