Hmm a life sentence you say?

[gooddragon1]

What if Belkar and Roy die in the gladiator pits and are resurrected? Technically they did serve their sentence completely and as a bonus Belkar dies.

[Thanatosia]

Belkar dying has no relevance to the prophecy if he just gets resurrected, that death has to be for reals.... or otherwise satisfy a very specific string of conditions that strongly implies permanant death including never drawing breath again, and the nature of the predictions will have a lot of people crying foul if something convoluted like that happens.

[AgentofOdd]

It should work, but the story doesn't seem to want to invoke the "death is cheap" trope, so I doubt it'll happen.

[derfenrirwolv]

Yup. Its "till the day you die" not the day you stay dead.. a perfectly lawful way out of the pits.

I just wonder how many people belkar is going to kill before they get bored and throw the fight

[NerfTW]

Somehow I doubt that while on a time sensitive mission, they'll risk being killed and waiting for a resurrection when Xykon could port in any second, or they could run into trouble.

There's death being cheap and then there's being a complete idiot about it.


My guess is they fight in front of Elan V, and Haley at the celebration. Even if they didn't, Roy and Belkar are capable of breaking out of a jail and fleeing.

[JonestheSpy]

Frankly, I think the main problem is going to be dragging Belkar away from the gladitorial pit.

Really, can you imagine anything closer to Heaven for him. Okay, there's have to be hookers after every fight?

[Math_Mage]

Somehow I doubt that while on a time sensitive mission, they'll risk being killed and waiting for a resurrection when Xykon could port in any second, or they could run into trouble.

There's death being cheap and then there's being a complete idiot about it.


My guess is they fight in front of Elan V, and Haley at the celebration. Even if they didn't, Roy and Belkar are capable of breaking out of a jail and fleeing.


Frankly, I think the main problem is going to be dragging Belkar away from the gladitorial pit.

Really, can you imagine anything closer to Heaven for him. Okay, there's have to be hookers after every fight?

+1.

No, they're not going to intentionally get themselves killed. Roy spent enough time dead already. Belkar would be justifiably concerned that the party wouldn't resurrect him. Besides, he's perfectly happy slitting throats in the arena for a living...until the jail explodes and he walks away again.

[Erts]

I think for realism Roy and Belkar would be much stronger than most of the gladiators.
In OOTSworld, there are not many high-level characters like them.

[RMcMurtry]

Oh, come on. Elan's going to recognize them and Tarquin will give them a job to complete for him as a way out of the pit.

[Moriarty]

I think for realism Roy and Belkar would be much stronger than most of the gladiators.
In OOTSworld, there are not many high-level characters like them.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, being a gladiator is a sure way of getting xp fast.

They may be stronger than the average fighter in there, but there will definately someone stronger than them

[Beorn080]

Tarquin is Lawful Evil. EVIL. What is more evil then having two friends fight to the death? Plus, with his Elan grade intelligence, he won't fall for Elan's tricks. I think Roy may be putting the Belkster down for the count, in exchange for only 1 life sentence being served.

[Dancing_Fox]

Somehow I doubt that while on a time sensitive mission, they'll risk being killed and waiting for a resurrection when Xykon could port in any second, or they could run into trouble.

There's death being cheap and then there's being a complete idiot about it.


My guess is they fight in front of Elan V, and Haley at the celebration. Even if they didn't, Roy and Belkar are capable of breaking out of a jail and fleeing.

This.

I'd only add to the comments along the lines of 'Tarquin will set them free' is that I don't know if a "general" can override a "judge" in this case.

Some regimes and circumstances they can, some they can't . . .

[LuPuWei]

Or perhaps this is Durkon's real chance for character development... Things were different when the Order was just in jail, and there was some chance that things would get cleared up quickly and legally, but can he, while on a quest of so much greater importance, actually, with a clear conscience, risk Roy and Belkar getting killed?

So far when interacting with Lawful societies, Durkon has largley chosen to remain lawful, and in a lawful Good Kingdom, this worked to their (arguable) advantage. But this is a Lawful Evil regime, and for the first time Durkon may have to bend his stiff lawful ass and give Good the greater importance....

[factotum]

Plus, with his Elan grade intelligence, he won't fall for Elan's tricks.

If I was Tarquin I'd be quite insulted at that--you're accusing him of only being as intelligent as Elan, which is pretty much equivalent to telling him he has the brains of a turnip! :smallsmile:

[Beorn080]

No, I said Elan Grade intelligence, not dumb as Elan. Elan inherited his Genre Savvy from his dad.

[The MunchKING]

This.

I'd only add to the comments along the lines of 'Tarquin will set them free' is that I don't know if a "general" can override a "judge" in this case.

Some regimes and circumstances they can, some they can't . . .

Judging by the extreme nature of laws and sentences, not to mention the aforementioned fast changing regimes in this part of town, I'm betting the Empire is under some sort or another of Martial Law. I'm betting Tarquin can do whatever the hell he wants around here and be within his rights. Not only that, but even if it wasn't technically legal, he's one of two with the direct ear of the queen. He could lean on her a bit and SHE could over rule the judge. I've never heard of a state where the Ruler couldn't override a judge...

[toastywes]

Frankly, I think the main problem is going to be dragging Belkar away from the gladitorial pit.

Really, can you imagine anything closer to Heaven for him. Okay, there's have to be hookers after every fight?
Quoted for truth.

Why would Belkar want to escape the gladiatorial sentence?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Tarquin is Lawful Evil. EVIL. What is more evil then having two friends fight to the death?
Y’know, most evil people have deeper motivations to do something other than “Just ‘cause it’s evil.” Hell, even Belkar at least has “Enjoys killing” as a motive.


I've never heard of a state where the Ruler couldn't override a judge...
Most places with anything short of totalitarian states restrict their rulers. And the first thing to enforce is that the Ruler is beholden to the laws that are in place.

[fryplink]

Most places with anything short of totalitarian states restrict their rulers. And the first thing to enforce is that the Ruler is beholden to the laws that are in place.

True, but the executive(as in manages law enforcement and armed services) arm of most governments has the ability to pardon criminals, and Tarquin, as general is head of this(especially in a totalitarian gov't, since they tend toward military law) .

[Beorn080]

Y’know, most evil people have deeper motivations to do something other than “Just ‘cause it’s evil.” Hell, even Belkar at least has “Enjoys killing” as a motive.

Yes, but its clearly been hinted that Tarquin has plans for Elan. So, he could have them fight to the death as leverage.

[NerfTW]

Well, keep in mind that together, the Order is pretty powerful. You'd have to assume an army big enough to take on the entire Order as a group. We've already seen Haley take out an entire group of guards in a few rounds. The actual melee members would fare even better, along with V's usual powerful spells. And they'd be focusing on fleeing, which would give them a distinct advantage. (They don't need to take them all out, just enough to get away)

Ordering people to fight to the death really only works when you can force them to. And while intentionally dying is ridiculous, once they're in a group, they don't have to worry as much about not being rezzed. (Since at this point Roy doesn't know that the others are safe)

[LuPuWei]

Yes, but its clearly been hinted that Tarquin has plans for Elan. So, he could have them fight to the death as leverage.

And that would totally be something a theatrics-driven character like Tarquin would do :smallbiggrin:

[Shhalahr Windrider]

True, but the executive(as in manages law enforcement and armed services) arm of most governments has the ability to pardon criminals, and Tarquin, as general is head of this(especially in a totalitarian gov't, since they tend toward military law) .
Yeah, I somehow doubt Tarquin has very many checks on his power beyond the fiat of the Empress herself. My earlier comment was just a generalized response to an earlier generalization.


Yes, but its clearly been hinted that Tarquin has plans for Elan. So, he could have them fight to the death as leverage.
Yeah, that I could buy. But Tarquin is not simply Evil for Evil’s sake. He has his motivations.


Ordering people to fight to the death really only works when you can force them to.
Thing is, if pressed, they can probably draw up the might to force a battle if they really wanted to. These guys are letting the very bounty hunters that were strong enough to take down half the Order and later hold their own in a brawl with another third of the Order just wander around the Empire. This doesn’t seem to be the type of Empire to just ignore folks strong enough to be potential threats. So they must have something they think is strong enough to take on Gannji and Enor. And if something’s strong enough to take on those two, it’s probably strong enough to at least pose a significant threat to the Order.

[Miklus]

Thing is, if pressed, they can probably draw up the might to force a battle if they really wanted to. These guys are letting the very bounty hunters that were strong enough to take down half the Order and later hold their own in a brawl with another third of the Order just wander around the Empire. This doesn’t seem to be the type of Empire to just ignore folks strong enough to be potential threats. So they must have something they think is strong enough to take on Gannji and Enor. And if something’s strong enough to take on those two, it’s probably strong enough to at least pose a significant threat to the Order.

Like, say, a big fat red dragon?

[slayerx]

True, but the executive(as in manages law enforcement and armed services) arm of most governments has the ability to pardon criminals, and Tarquin, as general is head of this(especially in a totalitarian gov't, since they tend toward military law) .

True, however we must recall that Tarquin is lawful. As such he may see it too unlawful to exploit his position to get friends of the family off the hook for a crime. He might be willing to note some legal loopholes though; such as resurrection after death, or methods by which gladiators can win their freedom

[T.H. Everything]

Gladiators winning their freedom? That is, by gaining money? I doubt that convicts would be given pay for working as gladiators.

[deuxhero]

I've never heard of a state where the Ruler couldn't override a judge...

Pretty sure the US president can't (though the US has criminal guilt determined by juries unless the criminal waives that). In a society of the era OotS has a faux version of though...

Oh! That's an interesting idea

One of the regime changes mentioned happens. Perhaps lead by Gannji and Enor (who have just mentioned that bounty hunting is a tough way to make a living...).

[The Glyphstone]

Pretty sure the US president can't (though the US has criminal guilt determined by juries unless the criminal waives that).
Ummm...presidental pardons? They can technically be given to anyone. But that's politics.

[deuxhero]

Ummm...presidental pardons? They can technically be given to anyone. But that's politics.

A pardon doesn't make you not guilty, just not have to endure the punishment (ok, that is chosen by a judge...).

[T.H. Everything]

A pardon doesn't make you not guilty, just not have to endure the punishment (ok, that is chosen by a judge...).
Yes, but a pardon would be all that's needed for Roy and Belkar, wouldn't it?

[Shhalahr Windrider]

Like, say, a big fat red dragon?
Only if you assume her lack of spellcasting ability is due to lack of Charisma rather than age or she has a number of class levels to make up for her young age. But if she is too young to cast spells, then her Dragon abilities would only peg her as CR 5 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/dragonTrue.htm#redDragon). She’d need to have class levels to be a significant threat to a level 13-14 party.


Yes, but a pardon would be all that's needed for Roy and Belkar, wouldn't it?
Yep. :smallcool:

[Paŭlo]

A pardon doesn't make you not guilty, just not have to endure the punishment (ok, that is chosen by a judge...).
Technically, they are guilty of not having the required papers - it is not a mis-judgment here.

A pardon would lower their punishment, maybe letting them out when no other gladiators are left or so :-)

[slayerx]

Gladiators winning their freedom? That is, by gaining money? I doubt that convicts would be given pay for working as gladiators.

Eh who knows, they could have a system where if you win enough fights you can earn your freedom... or Maybe they even got some kind of voluntary Free-for-all with where the last man standing gets to go free... the idea behind the prison sentence is that you normally don't live long enough to exploit these

[Wymmerdann]

Or maybe it could be based off you know...actual gladiators, who were often slaves that were allowed to keep the money thrown to them by the crowd and could eventually use that to buy their freedom. (Doesn't factor in with a death sentence well, but that'd be the most sensible way for freedom to work in this scenario).

And while the sentence was technically valid, many people subscribe to the view that the only binding law is law that is morally sound "the only law is good law". So if the Empire of Blood has a system that fails to meet basic structural requirements then it cannot be morally binding law (see Nuremburg Trials).

[FrankNorman]

Judging by the extreme nature of laws and sentences, not to mention the aforementioned fast changing regimes in this part of town, I'm betting the Empire is under some sort or another of Martial Law. I'm betting Tarquin can do whatever the hell he wants around here and be within his rights. Not only that, but even if it wasn't technically legal, he's one of two with the direct ear of the queen. He could lean on her a bit and SHE could over rule the judge. I've never heard of a state where the Ruler couldn't override a judge...

I think that should be a given - there should always be someone with the authority to over-ride a judicial verdict, otherwise its the judge that would be effectively an unbridled despot.

[Voyager_I]

So far when interacting with Lawful societies, Durkon has largley chosen to remain lawful, and in a lawful Good Kingdom, this worked to their (arguable) advantage. But this is a Lawful Evil regime, and for the first time Durkon may have to bend his stiff lawful ass and give Good the greater importance....

Durkon lied straight to Miko's face after Haley picked the locks to their cells in Azure City, even after her little speech about trusting his honesty. The main reason he was so compliant was because he believed he was following the will of his Deity.

[T.H. Everything]

Or maybe it could be based off you know...actual gladiators, who were often slaves that were allowed to keep the money thrown to them by the crowd and could eventually use that to buy their freedom. (Doesn't factor in with a death sentence well, but that'd be the most sensible way for freedom to work in this scenario).

There were civilizations besides Rome that had something similar to gladiatorial combat, you know.

[tomandtish]

Durkon lied straight to Miko's face after Haley picked the locks to their cells in Azure City, even after her little speech about trusting his honesty. The main reason he was so compliant was because he believed he was following the will of his Deity.

Ahh, the joy of semantics. One could argue that Durkon didn't lie at all. After all, the 5 of them didn't leave their cells (only 4 did). And if he truly believes that a lock is mechanically defective if it can be picked by a rogue, then that is a true statement as well.

That's the annoying thing lawful characters do to intentionally mislead someone while technically telling the truth, and depending on the nature of the misleading some DMs count it the same as lying. After all, while the speaker may feel they've satisfied honor by telling the truth, I suspect the listener (even if LG, or perhaps especially if LG) won't feel the same way. It might be understandable in minor social situations ("Yes my lady, you look as lovely as ever" when she has a comeliness of -10), but becomes more questionable the more serious the issue is.

For example, let's say they retake Azure City (but O'chul is killed in the battle), figure out a way to reseal the rift, and discover that to reseal the rift they need the person (or remains of the person) responsible for destroying the original seal). Because O'Chul mislead Hinjo, they would try using O'chul instead of Miko (if they could find her). Point is, how the seal was destroyed could be very important information, and O'chul certainly intentionally mislead his superior by the way he answered the question.

[Dr.Epic]

Yup. Its "till the day you die" not the day you stay dead.. a perfectly lawful way out of the pits.

The conviction rate is 117%. I think law and order take a backseat to all-offenders-are-brutally-killed in the Empire.

As for the theories about Belkar fulfilling the prophecy and coming back, the Oracle said he will draw his last breath ever. If he comes back, unless he can hold his breath for a really long time, he'll draw another breath.

[Morph Bark]

Belkar dying has no relevance to the prophecy if he just gets resurrected, that death has to be for reals.... or otherwise satisfy a very specific string of conditions that strongly implies permanant death including never drawing breath again, and the nature of the predictions will have a lot of people crying foul if something convoluted like that happens.

Undead Belkar, anyone?

[Kish]

Undead Belkar, anyone?
"...not long for the world..."

[Morph Bark]

"...not long for the world..."

Well unlike apparently everyone else on this board, I don't quite got the entire prophecy memorized, nor do I know the exact strip it is made in since I didn't find any posts citing the source, so perhaps you could be so kind as to provide me with a link to it or at least tell me what in the Infinite Layers you meant by that line?

[hamishspence]

The first parts show the Oracle implying Belkar "should savor his next birthday cake" and "not bother funding his IRA"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html

"Not long for this world" and "will draw his last breath- ever, before the end of the year" are here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html

[RMcMurtry]

Well unlike apparently everyone else on this board, I don't quite got the entire prophecy memorized, nor do I know the exact strip it is made in since I didn't find any posts citing the source, so perhaps you could be so kind as to provide me with a link to it or at least tell me what in the Infinite Layers you meant by that line?

No need to have it memorized. I regard the thread as an excuse to reread OotS and make sure I've got the prophecy accurate for commenting.