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BladeofOblivion
2010-07-13, 04:28 AM
The Runeblade

Some warriors believe that the path to power lies in the sharpness of the blade and the strength of their arm. Some believe that lightning strikes before the opponent can react are the key to victory. The Runeblade understands that the most powerful force in the multiverse is command over the mysteries of the Arcane. However, the Runeblade is loath to completely surrender his martial talents to the study of magic, so he found a compromise. He uses an array of mix-and-match runes that allow him to change the magical properties of his weapon on the fly, giving him more sheer versatility than any fighter and more martial prowess than any wizard. He also uses his knowledge of Arcana to divine the strengths and weaknesses of his enemies. A well-equipped and supplied Runeblade is never caught without a solution.

Race: Humans find the adaptability of the Runeblade attractive and thus are the most common race to become Runeblades. However, any member of any race could join.

Alignment: Any. The runes can be used by those of any level of virtue or vice.

Hit Die: d10. A worthwhile Runeblade needs to defend himself while he sizes the enemy up and alters his weapon accordingly.

Skills: 2 + Int modifier (X4 at first level)

Class Skills: Climb(Str), Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Intimidate(Cha), Swim(Str), Spellcraft(Int), Jump(Str), Craft(Int), Profession(Wis), Use Magic Device(Cha);

Weapon/Armor Proficiencies: Simple, Martial, and Runic(see below) weapons and light, medium, and heavy armor, but not shields.

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Class Abilities

1st|
+1|
+2|
+0|
+2| Runic Power +1, Runestrike, Mold Runic Energy

2nd|
+2|
+3|
+0|
+3|Replacement, Runes of Control +1

3rd|
+3|
+3|
+1|
+3|Analyze Weakness

4th|
+4|
+4|
+1|
+4| Runic Power +2, Runes of Control +2

5th|
+5|
+4|
+1|
+4|Improved Replacement

6th|
+6/+1|
+5|
+2|
+5|Runic Power +3, Runes of Control +2

7th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+2|
+5|Improved Analysis

8th|
+8/+3|
+6|
+2|
+6|Runic Power +4, Runes of Control +4

9th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+3|
+6|Greater Replacement

10th|
+10/+5|
+7|
+3|
+7|Runic Power +5, Runes of Control +4

11th|
+11/+6/+1|
+7|
+3|
+7|Greater Analysis

12th|
+12/+7/+2|
+8|
+4|
+8|Runic Power +6, Runes of Control +6

13th|
+13/+8/+3|
+8|
+4|
+8|Efficiency

14th|
+14/+9/+4|
+9|
+4|
+9|Runic Power +7, Runes of Control +6

15th|
+15/+10/+5|
+9|
+5|
+9|Instant Replacement

16th|
+16/+11/+6/+1|
+10|
+5|
+10|Runic Power +8, Runes of Control +8

17th|
+17/+12/+7/+2|
+10|
+5|
+10|Skill Focus(Knowledge(Arcana))
18th|
+18/+13/+7/+3|
+11|
+6|
+11|Runic Power +9, Runes of Control +8

19th|
+19/+14/+8/+4|
+11|
+6|
+11|Perfect Analysis

20th|
+20/+15/+10/+5|
+12|
+6|
+12|Runic Power +10, Runes of Control +10[/table]


Runic Power: Runic weapons are specially weighted and shaped to properly channel the raw energy emanating from the runes. This makes them unstable and unusable by a person with too little runic power. As the runeblade's experience with this effect grows, he becomes progressively more able to use this effect without shattering his bones. He can wield a runic weapon with a maximum number of sockets equal to his runic power score. Thus, a 10th level Runeblade can use a +5 or lower Runic weapon. Attempting to use a Runic weapon that has too much enhancement for a given person to handle is exceedingly dangerous. Any attempt to hold it deals 1d6 damage to the wielder times the difference of the weapon's enhancement bonus and the character's Runic power. This damage is repeated at the beginning of the wielder's action and at any time they attempt to make an attack with it until the weapon is dropped.

Runestrike: A Runeblade can channel raw magical energy originating from the Astral Plane through his touch or a Runic Weapon. If the runeblade succeeds on a touch attack (Or a normal attack if a runic weapon is used), He may choose to inflict one of the following effects upon the target:
Disjoining Rune: The target takes force damage equal to 1d6 + 1d6 /three class levels. The affliction continues for one additional round/three class levels, dealing the same amount each round this effect persists.
Cancerous Rune: The target takes 1d4 Con Damage + 1d3 Con/four class levels. A successful Fortitude save halves the damage.
If applicable, save DC is equal to 10 + Runic Power + Int modifier. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Runeblade's Runic Power Score.

Mold Runic Energy: At first level, The Runeblade gains the Mold Runic Energy Feat for free as a bonus feat.

Replacement: As a full-round action, the Runeblade can replace one rune in his weapon with another rune on his person.

Analyze Weakness: The Runeblade, as a standard action, can inspect an opponent within his line of sight that is directly related to Arcane Magic (Constructs, Abberations, Fey, and Dragons) and try to find it's weaknesses. If the Runeblade makes a successful Knowledge(Arcana) check (DC = 10 + HD of inspected creature), then the player is told the creature's weaknesses, if applicable. Weaknesses include elemental weaknesses and types of attacks that bypass Damage Reduction.

Improved Replacement: As Replacement, but any number of runes can be replaced in one full-round action.

Improved Analysis: As Analyze Weakness, but also describes any immunities or resistances that the Analyzed opponent may have. This ability cannot detect immunities and resistances that exist because of magic items.

Greater Replacement: As Improved Replacement, except that this ability now requires only a standard action.

Skill Focus: Skill Focus(Knowledge(Arcana)) is gained as a bonus feat.

Efficiency: With all his practice at hitting where it hurts, the Runeblade now gains an automatic +1d6 damage bonus/ten class levels when bypassing Damage Reduction. The bonus damage is of the same type as the weapon dealing the damage.

Instant Replacement: As Greater Replacement, except that this ability can now be used as a free action.

Greater Analysis: As Improved Analysis, but can analyze creatures with a less direct connection to arcane magic (Undead, Magical beasts, Oozes, Outsiders, Elementals, and Monstrous Humanoids). This ability cannot detect immunities and resistances that exist because of magic items.

Perfect Analysis: As Greater Analysis, except that any existing creature can be analyzed, Immunities and resistances from magic items are detected and described as such, Special and Spell-like abilities are detected and described, and this ability is now usable once per round as a swift action.

Runes of Control: Once each time an even level of Runeblade is reached, The Runeblade learns a single one of these unique runes, which function as at-will spell-like abilities. Caster Level is equal to the Runeblade's Runic Power score. Save DCs, if applicable, are equal to the Runeblade's Int modifier + 10 + His Runic Power score. The runes that can be learned at a given level are determined by runic power:

+1 Runic Power

Runes of Amusement
The hero lifted his hand and traced some ancient symbol into the air. Suddenly, the dishes were clean.
This ability functions in all ways like a Prestidigitation spell.

Brilliant Rune
The hero makes a quick wave of his hand and a bright light suddenly begins to glow from his fingertips.
This ability functions in all ways like a light spell.

Rune of Distraction
The caster stares at his opponent and makes a gesture at him. The target suddenly has difficulty thinking as small flashes of archaic text permeate his vision and his very thoughts.
This ability is identical to a Daze spell.

+2 Runic Power

Rune of Instability
The ground suddenly flashed in the bright light of some arcane sigil, and the very ground it appeared on was like ice in the difficulty to pass it.
This Ability is identical to the Grease spell.

Rune of Accuracy
The Runeblade gestures and suddenly sees every chink in the armor, every unprotected point on his foe's body. He feels the arcane energy guiding his blade.
This ability is identical to the spell "True Strike," except that it lasts a number of rounds equal to half of the Runeblade's Caster level or until discharged with an attack attempt.

Rune of Sealing
The opening suddenly grows cross-braced adamantine supports and a more complex lock. No one is coming through for a few minutes at least.
The door or other opening that this ability affects becomes nigh-impossible to get through. Any attempts to break down the door take a -20 penalty to the strength check. Any attempts to pick the lock on the door take a -10 penalty on the check. The door's Hardness is multiplied by a factor of four.
This ability is otherwise identical to Arcane Lock.

Antirunes
He passes his hand over a block of text and it simply disappears.
This ability is identical to the Erase spell.

+4 Runic Power

Runes of Blindness
The target sees only a brightly flashing and quickly fading rune that blocks all vision.
This ability is identical to Blindness/Deafness, with the exception that it cannot inflict deafness.

Rune of Shattering
He eyes the lock and traces something in its direction. The complex device explodes, leaving shards of metal all over the room.
This ability is identical to the Shatter spell, with the exception that it cannot be used to target crystalline creatures.

Rune of Altitude
He gestures at the Barbarian standing in front of him. The Barbarian panics as he rises into the air, unable to help his allies as they are slaughtered before him.
This ability is Identical to the levitate spell, except that the Caster cannot be targeted.

Adhesive Rune
A huge sigil appears on the ground, and the warriors standing in it suddenly realize that they cannot lift their feet off the ground.
This ability is identical to the web spell.

+6 Runic Power

Explosive Runes
I prepared Explosive Runes this morning.
This ability is identical to the spell of the same name.

Rune of Paralysis
The caster gestures at the rogue, who he doesn't want to let sneak around. The Rogue feels his limbs stiffening but cannot resist.
This ability is identical to the spell Hold Person.

Rune of Protection
A sigil surrounds the caster, comforting, protecting him.
This ability is identical to the spell Magic circle against Alignment.

Rune of Dissipation
The caster traces a rune and the mirror images of his enemy suddenly fade.
This ability is identical to the spell Dispel Magic, Though the Runeblade's effective caster level for the caster level check is doubled.

+8 Runic Power

Rune of Binding
The wizard, horribly injured, saw the bolt hit him, but he was so numb by now that he couldn't feel it. He was focused on his teleport spell to escape and live. The spell fizzled and he realized what exactly the Runeblade had cast.
This ability is identical to the spell Dimensional Anchor.

Rune of Resistance
A fog suddenly drifted up. It was like wading through modeling clay.
This ability is identical to the spell Solid Fog.

Rune of Sudden Travel
The Runeblade traced a Rune and vanished... ...and then appeared right behind the enemy wizard.
This ability is identical to the spell Dimension Door.

Rune of Caging
The Runeblade was sick of the enemy Fighter, so he pinned him down for later.
This ability is identical to the spell Otiluke's Resilient Sphere.

+10 Runic Power

Wall of Inpenetrable Runes
A gigantic vertical Sigil appeared in the hallway, leaving the enemy wizard alone with the Runeblade in melee.
This ability is identical to the spell wall of force.

Rune of Pain
Just viewing that accursed Rune caused searing agony among the warriors.
This ability is identical to the spell Symbol of Pain.

Rune of Manipulation
Just as the Fighter seemed to get the upper hand, his opponent lifted the swords in the armory with his mind and threw them at him.
This ability is identical to the spell Telekinesis.







Runic Weapons

Runic Weapons are simple and martial weapons uniquely redesigned to channel the power of runes. In order to use a runic weapon, you must have proficiency with them, enough runic power to maintain control of it, and proficiency with the base weapon. Every runic weapon has an enhancement bonus to attack and damage equal to the number of rune sockets it contains. You need runic power equal to or greater than this enhancement bonus to use the weapon. In addition, runic weapons act as exceptions to the usual rule limiting enhancement bonuses to +5 and can instead go all the way up to +10. However, they can no longer be enchanted normally. Instead, these slots are filled with runes (Each Sold Separately) that provide set bonuses. For example, the Rune of Flame uses one Rune Slot and provides +1d6 fire damage on a successful hit. Runes can be removed from the weapon. The cost of a runic weapon is calculated as 1.25 times that of an equal enhancement bonus, plus the cost of the masterwork weapon and any material-based modifiers. For example, A +2 Greatsword costs precisely 8350 gold pieces, so the +2 component costs 8000 gold pieces. A runic +2 component would cost 10000 due to the 25% price increase for a total of 10350 gold pieces. Ranged Weapons cannot be runic.


Runes

Rune of Flame
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d6 fire damage
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Frost
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d6 cold damage
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Shock
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d6 electrical damage
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Corrosion
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d6 acid damage
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Thundering
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d6 sonic damage
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Ghost Touch
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: Ghost Touch
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Bane(Creature Type)
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +2d6 damage against Type
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Keen Edge
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: As a Keen Edge spell cast upon the weapon, though piercing and bludgeoning weapons are affected as if they were slashing weapons.
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Vampirism
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: +1d4 Negative Energy, +1d4 Healing on Wielder
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Bleeding
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: Opponent must make DC 15 Reflex save or suffer 1 point of bleeding damage per round until healed magically. Multiple effects are cumulative.
Cost: 500 gp

Rune of Silversheen
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: As long as this rune is active, the weapon is treated as alchemical silver for all purposes.
Cost: 500

Rune of Iron Cooling
Uses 1 Rune Slot
Effect: As long as this rune is active, the weapon is treated as cold iron for all purposes.
Cost: 500

Rune of Dulling
Uses 1 Rune Slots
Effect: Thickens and Dulls the weapon, making it deal bludgeoning damage instead of it's original type. Damage is unchanged.
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Thinning
Uses 1 Rune Slots
Effect: Thins and Sharpens the weapon to a point, making it deal piercing damage instead of it's original type. Damage is unchanged.
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Sharpening
Uses 1 Rune Slots
Effect: Flattens and Sharpens the weapon on the edges, making it deal slashing damage instead of it's original type. Damage is unchanged.
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Power
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: All damage-boosting runes currently on weapon are treated as one die size higher, e.g. +1d6 becomes +1d8.
Cost: 4500 gp

Rune of Adamantine
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: As long as this rune is active, the weapon is treated as Adamantine for all purposes.
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Anarchy
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +1d6 vs Neutral, + 2d6 vs Law, Adds [Chaotic] Descriptor
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Order
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +1d6 vs Neutral, + 2d6 vs Chaotic, Adds [Lawful] Descriptor
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Profanity
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +1d6 vs Neutral, + 2d6 vs Good, Adds [Evil] Descriptor
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Holiness
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +1d6 vs Neutral, + 2d6 vs Evil, Adds [Good] Descriptor
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Wounding
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +1 CON damage on hit
Cost: 2000 gp

Rune of Greater Flame
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +3d6 fire damage
Cost: 11000 gp

Rune of Greater Frost
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +3d6 cold damage
Cost: 11000 gp

Rune of Greater Shock
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +3d6 electrical damage
Cost: 11000 gp

Rune of Greater Corrosion
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +3d6 acid damage
Cost: 11000 gp

Rune of Greater Thundering
Uses 2 Rune Slots
Effect: +3d6 sonic damage
Cost: 11000 gp

Rune of Death
Uses 3 Rune Slots
Effect: Vorpal Weapon
Cost: 4500 gp

Rune of Energy
Uses 4 Rune Slots
Effect: Brilliant Energy effect, as in the Dungeon Master's Guide.
Cost: 8000 gp





New Feats

And as I edit this, I give you these feats. Thanks, Community!

Mold Runic Energy
You have learned the art of forging unique weapons that make use of runes, as well as the runes themselves, bending raw arcane energy to your Indomitable Will.
Prerequisites: BAB +1, Runic Power +1 or higher
Benefit: You can use the craft(Runecrafting) skill to create runes and runic weapons, spending one-third of the base price in gold and 1/25 of the base price in XP.
Normal: Without this feat, you must buy any runes you want at the grocery store.

Outmaneuver
Your keen wit and steady hand allow you to trick your foes right into your actual blow.
Prerequisites: BAB +3, Runic Power +1 or higher, Dex 13+
Benefit: If your intelligence modifier exceeds your strength modifier, you may use it to calculate Melee attack bonus and damage instead.
Normal: Melee attack bonus is based on strength.

Lix Lorn
2010-07-13, 05:11 AM
I like this a lot, though more runes would be good. <3

Venardhi
2010-07-13, 06:13 AM
Overall this concept seems like it would suit a 10-12 level Prestige Class better, with the requirements being based around BAB, Crafting and Awareness Skills.

The runeblades and runes seem like they should just be class features rather than items they'll be picking up from the grocery store.

The runes themselves could be like spells in that they pick from a list which ones they want to learn at each level, and can craft a certain amount of them to carry at any one time, when discarding a rune in favor of another, the discarded rune would be destroyed. I like specialization.

This would also give them a good reason to seek out other Runeblades to trade/buy higher level (more specialized) runes for specific encounters they expect to come upon but not often enough to warrant it as one of their limited choices.

The weapons could be created with the use of a bonus crafting feat that allows them to upgrade their previous weapons themselves as long as they keep their crafting skills up. Each upgrade shouldn't be so freakishly expensive that the player spends most of it just trying to get cash to be able to use the extra rune he earned the ability to slot two levels ago. Maybe I just play with stingy DMs more often than not, but I don't like seeing classes require so much money as a requirement to progression.

Certain weapons might also have their own runic properties. Slicing weapons giving +1 bonuses to all damage runes, Stabbing weapons +1 to DC of all rune saves, whatever.

I think there is a lot more you can do with this concept than this writeup suggests. I heartily approve of the idea though.

lesser_minion
2010-07-13, 08:06 AM
While this might be an interesting concept, at the moment it's seriously underpowered and too poorly defined to be worthwhile.

The ability to use a special kind of weapon that you still have to pay for is not a good starting point for a new base class.

The other ability -- to see the strengths and weaknesses of creatures you encounter -- is fairly nice, but still nowhere near worthwhile.

Now, as a concept, a class that works by applying nifty effects to equipment is pretty interesting, but you really need to expand on that a lot before you have a base class.

And I certainly wouldn't implement runes as something you have to buy. Let them learn a large number of different runes, and give them runes that do things other than mess around with weaponry. Maybe they can draw a rune on the floor to make nearby objects levitate?

Or a rune over a doorway to make it impassable?

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-13, 04:38 PM
At the moment, this is more of a proof of concept, as I am still working on it. The idea was to make a big NON-stupid fighter that can actually stand somewhat near the rest of the party in damage capability and versatility. Also, I checked the wealth by level guidelines and you are correct that the equipment costs more than it probably should. I will work on fixing that, but the reason for it to be so pricy is that without that limit, this can do WAY more damage than even an optimized Fighter. Then again, this is the same system where the developers actually consider the Wizard, Cleric, and Druid balanced with the rest...

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-13, 05:40 PM
I've got it! Set Runic weapon cost increase to 25% instead of 50%, making them much more affordable, cut rune costs to Half Price and maybe add a list of Rune-Flavored Spell-like abilities (Thanks for being helpful, lesser minion!) that you can choose one from every 5 levels or something like that. Also, being a little underpowered at low level is fine. It isn't like there are any uber-powerful classes that are weaker than Fighters at level 1. (Cough "Wizard" Cough)

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-13, 07:55 PM
I like this a lot, though more runes would be good. <3

Coming Right up! (As soon as I think of a few new effects and how to price them.)

Fizban
2010-07-14, 03:28 AM
Uh, I hate to say it, but this class is even worse than the Soulknife. The Soulknife's only class feature is having a magic weapon. This class's only class feature is being able to use an overpriced weapon. Having an uncapped enhancement bonus and being able to change weapon properties on the fly does not make a class, and being able to identify weaknesses that you cannot exploit does not make up for it. Even if you could stack the runes (I'm assuming you can't) the extra damage wouldn't make up for a lack of useful class features. A fighter will have more cash to spend on wondrous and charged items to give him the abilities he needs in combat at the drop of a hat, and will at least have bonus feats to let him choose how to fight his opponent.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or anything, dudes with magic swords are always good. But at the very least, if you're making a class that is focused on having a magic weapon, they need to get it for free, and it has to come as more of a perk on top of an otherwise solid class. If all the class does is give you a free magic weapon, it should be a prestige class like the Kensai.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-14, 04:21 AM
Uh, I hate to say it, but this class is even worse than the Soulknife. The Soulknife's only class feature is having a magic weapon. This class's only class feature is being able to use an overpriced weapon. Having an uncapped enhancement bonus and being able to change weapon properties on the fly does not make a class, and being able to identify weaknesses that you cannot exploit does not make up for it. Even if you could stack the runes (I'm assuming you can't) the extra damage wouldn't make up for a lack of useful class features. A fighter will have more cash to spend on wondrous and charged items to give him the abilities he needs in combat at the drop of a hat, and will at least have bonus feats to let him choose how to fight his opponent.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea or anything, dudes with magic swords are always good. But at the very least, if you're making a class that is focused on having a magic weapon, they need to get it for free, and it has to come as more of a perk on top of an otherwise solid class. If all the class does is give you a free magic weapon, it should be a prestige class like the Kensai.

You make some great points, but allow me to make some counterpoints:

1: This one is more my problem, but I have no idea what a soulknife is. The comparison is useless to me.

2: The Weapon isn't overpriced anymore. In fact, it is sometimes cheaper than an equivalent NORMALLY enchanted weapon: A +1 Runic Greatsword with a Flame Rune added costs a total of 3350 gp. The equivalent normal weapon is a +1 flaming greatsword, which has a price of 8350 gp.

3: You can exploit these weaknesses if the monster actually has any of them. Being versatile enough to always break DR is useful. In addition, the "Efficiency" ability at level 13 further encourages Runeblades to play this way, giving 50% extra damage when he bypasses DR or exploits a true weakness, like using fire attacks on a Mummy. With that ability, DR actually can become a liability.

4: You can stack the runes. After all, the point is that you are augmenting the device with energy-producing runes. Since you are releasing twice as much heat with two flame runes, does it not make sense that it does twice as much damage?

5: A fighter may carry around wondrous items, but the Runeblade has UMD, which is alot better anyway on average.

6: Also, past the first few levels, Fighters don't have many useful feats remaining to take. Some of the better ones (like weapon focus) give a +1 bonus to hit. Let's face it, most of these feats are pathetic at above level 6 or so. It's like someone at WOTC nerfed them because he thought they would overpower full casters.

7: I am aware that Runic Weapons are generally not available at level 1 unless your DM is very generous. There is a reason I gave them regular simple and martial proficiency. At these first few levels the Fighter is stronger, indeed. But, in these early levels, the Fighter is also stronger than the wizard. (And we all know how that turns out by level 20.)

In conclusion, I believe the Runeblade as written is significantly more powerful than the average Fighter if played correctly. Also, I wonder how this thing would do against a Skindancer from MM3...

Edit: Oh, one more thing. If anyone has ideas for new runes or rune-flavored abilities, go ahead and post them. I'm open to new ideas.

lesser_minion
2010-07-14, 08:51 AM
Fizban's right. This class would be underpowered even if the runes were free.

Fax posted a guide to what makes a good character class, and how. It's a little subjective, and I've seen it argued that some of the points are a little off, but I recommend you read it and the accompanying discussion:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=55902

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 09:27 AM
For rune ideas.. Any chance on a greater form of the basic +1d6 of damage. So that instead of using two slots for +2d6 fire, they could a have rune of greater flame that adds 2d6 of fire.. Might be workable. Also, is there any chance on the runes becoming an ability that the class manifests. Maybe a rune of reach, giving the weapon 5 ft reach. Perhaps a vampire like effect? Or even a wound effect?

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-14, 09:31 AM
I am still working on a list of at-will spell-like abilities that you can choose from once every two to four levels, whichever seems right. CL equals Runic Power and DCs if applicable are 10 + runic power + Int mod. There will be more runes available and more custom feats to allow some help along the way.

By the way, I took Venardhi's advice on one thing and made a crafting feat. As this is an Int-dependent class, why not add an extra craft skill to sink some points on? Anyway, they can make their own runes and runic weapons for a significantly reduced price and a small xp cost. Actually, the fact that the party Tank is crafting gives the casters the opportunity to craft around a bit too without worrying about slower leveling than the rest of the party.

One more thing. You guys seriously think that the average FIGHTER is stronger than this class? Is it at least better than an unoptimized Truenamer?

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 09:36 AM
I think this would be stronger then the fighter as it leveled.. At first it wouldn't be since it only gains abilities tied to rune weapons for the first two levels. And as your post said, it would take a few levels to get a rune weapon so this classes chief ability is useless until then. But I have no doubt it's stronger then the fighter taken to lvl 20. And any thoughts on what I posted for rune ideas?

lesser_minion
2010-07-14, 09:40 AM
You're worse off than this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/classes/soulknife.htm).

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-14, 06:41 PM
Yes, I agree that the soulknife is Ineffective, but comparing it to this is a low blow. One, this class can alter abilities on the fly, making that ability actually useful. The intention of how this class is played is to use analyze to find a weakness, Alter your weapon to properly deal effective amounts of damage, and, if level 13 or higher, enjoy that +50% damage just for hitting them with something they can't defend against. I am still planning on adding those spell-like abilities, allowing more combat options. In addition, with the Outmaneuver feat I added, the class is almost entirely SAD(Int), the only other important stats being Dex for AC and to qualify for said feat, and Con, for obvious reasons.

Mrcarter11, yes, I like your rune ideas. I plan on adding as many of those ideas as I can at the same time I finish and add the Spell-like abilities.

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 11:51 PM
While I may not know a lot about balance and what not.. I would still say that this class is better then some core classes. So I honestly don't see the problem with it. I like it and think it would work well in most games. More so ones that start at higher levels though.

DaragosKitsune
2010-07-15, 12:21 AM
I can honestly say I like this class. It has good flavour, has some good (not gamebreaking, but still effective) abilities, and honestly looks fun to play. The only problem is that the Runic Weapons themselves make the class unplayable at lower levels. The two major issues with the runic weapons are as follows:

1. The cost means that you can't start a Lvl.1 to x campaign as a Runeblade if you want to be a major player before Lvl.3.

2. The cost increase of the Runic Weapon, while meaning well, will cause players to ignore this class. No player wants to pay more for an item that only gets really good because of class features, especially when their friends are finding better items. Also, you have to keep paying to upgrade your runic weapon or you will quickly be overshadowed.

I would rather see the runic weapon be given to the class at first level as an ordinary weapon with one avalible rune slot. The runic weapon can be made masterwork or enchanted like any other weapon with the Runeblade adding a new rune slot to it whenever their runic power increases to warrant it.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 01:56 AM
I like the input! Keep it up!
By the way, I added Mrcarter11's rune ideas, which had good flavor and were fairly well balanced. I also finally added those spell-like abilities, focused around battlefield control.

Level 20 Wall of Force at will = Win.

If Lesser Minion STILL thinks this is underpowered, I give up.

mrcarter11
2010-07-15, 02:06 AM
Never give up.. As long as someone likes it isn't it worth it?

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 02:45 AM
I meant that I give up trying to make him/her happy with it. I'm beginning to think that underpowered actually means "not wizard/incatatrix multiclass."

lesser_minion
2010-07-15, 08:21 AM
The half spellcasting is certainly an improvement, although it's still not much, and it's not unique either (warlocks can do almost exactly this)

Remember that at-will isn't particularly significant -- the main cost of any given spell is the time it takes to cast.

And no, underpowered doesn't mean "not wizard/incantatrix", it means underpowered.

The usual consensus is that an ideal power level is about the same as a wilder or a psychic warrior, both of which are stronger than this.

Lix Lorn
2010-07-15, 08:40 AM
How about a couple of abilities like this:

Runestrike (Sp): With but a touch of his finger, the Runeblade forms a powerful rune on his opponent. They must succeed on a touch attack, in which case one of the following runes is formed on their opponent where they were struck.
Alternatively, they may use this in combination with a weapon, in which case it does damage as the weapon and applies the rune, but is not a touch attack. (Unless the weapon used is.)

(These would probably need minimum levels.)

Flame Rune
The foe is set alight. They suffer 1d6 fire damage, plus an additional 1d6 fire damage/three class levels. In addition, the flames continue to burn for one round/three class levels, doing the same damage each round.

Affliction Rune
As Contagion.

Rune of Wounding
The rune burrows into the targets flesh, causing agony and severe damage. 1d3 Con damage, + 1d3/three class levels. Fortitude negates(?)

Runic Preperation (Su)
The Runeblade can apply runes to himself and his allies (Allies? Hmm, maybe, maybe not. Thoughts?) that enhance their abilities.
Lasting... I don't know, an hour/two class levels? An encounter? Uses per day? (Shrug)
They probably need caps as well. I dunno.

Rune of Might
+1 Strength/two class levels enhancement bonus..

Rune of Leadership
+1 Charisma/two class levels enhancement bonus.

Rune of Fortune
+1/class level luck bonus to all saves

Rune of Iron
+1/two class levels enhancement bonus to armour.

Rune of Safety
+1/two class levels Deflection bonus to armour class.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 04:40 PM
Runestrike (Sp): With but a touch of his finger, the Runeblade forms a powerful rune on his opponent. They must succeed on a touch attack, in which case one of the following runes is formed on their opponent where they were struck.
Alternatively, they may use this in combination with a weapon, in which case it does damage as the weapon and applies the rune, but is not a touch attack. (Unless the weapon used is.)

(These would probably need minimum levels.)

Flame Rune
The foe is set alight. They suffer 1d6 fire damage, plus an additional 1d6 fire damage/three class levels. In addition, the flames continue to burn for one round/three class levels, doing the same damage each round.

Affliction Rune
As Contagion.

Rune of Wounding
The rune burrows into the targets flesh, causing agony and severe damage. 1d3 Con damage, + 1d3/three class levels. Fortitude negates(?)

Runic Preperation (Su)
The Runeblade can apply runes to himself and his allies (Allies? Hmm, maybe, maybe not. Thoughts?) that enhance their abilities.
Lasting... I don't know, an hour/two class levels? An encounter? Uses per day? (Shrug)
They probably need caps as well. I dunno.

Rune of Might
+1 Strength/two class levels enhancement bonus..

Rune of Leadership
+1 Charisma/two class levels enhancement bonus.

Rune of Fortune
+1/class level luck bonus to all saves

Rune of Iron
+1/two class levels enhancement bonus to armour.

Rune of Safety
+1/two class levels Deflection bonus to armour class.

I like this. I really do. Rune of Affliction is too powerful early on and doesn't scale well, so that one needs some changes. Other than that, setting Runestrike to (Runic Power)/per day and handing it to the player at level 1 helps to mitigate the relative weakness at first level, and then giving them Runic Preparation with the same restriction at level two would only add to the class' versatility. These are, for the most part, scaled to be useful at every level. Thanks!

Also, Lesser Minion, Is there an "Ideal power level" In core? That's all I really have access to.

Lix Lorn
2010-07-15, 04:48 PM
Glad to help!
Those were just off the top of my head, you'd need more.

mrcarter11
2010-07-15, 05:03 PM
Does rune of power effect any of the following: Bleeding, Wounding, Vampirism.

lesser_minion
2010-07-15, 05:28 PM
Also, Lesser Minion, Is there an "Ideal power level" In core? That's all I really have access to.

Right between a rogue and a sorcerer.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 05:34 PM
Lesser Minion: Thank you for installing some lights. I am no longer shooting in the dark. So that puts "Ideal" at about tier 3, right?

Mrcarter11: Vampirism is affected, and positive energy is very technically a form of damage. Wounding and Bleeding are not affected, as they are not hit point damage. That would be quite scary, however. Way to think outside the box!

mrcarter11
2010-07-15, 05:34 PM
My favorite two classes in core.. But rogue sits like mid tier 3 and sorcerer is like high tier 2

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 05:39 PM
At least according to the guide, Rogue is high tier 4, but depending on how it is played, I think it can pass into tier 3 territory.

lesser_minion
2010-07-15, 05:41 PM
Lesser Minion: Thank you for installing some lights. I am no longer shooting in the dark. So that puts "Ideal" at about tier 3, right?

Yes, that's right.

mrcarter11
2010-07-15, 05:44 PM
Okay.. I thought tier 3 was deemed to be something that was great at what it was supposed to do and decent at other things.. Which IMO fits rogue beautifully. I mean rogues are great at doing what they were meant to.. And they are decent fighters, both in melee and can work good at range as well. With their skills they work as good faces and monkeys..

EDIT: I see myself using a rune of power with vampirism and one of the greater runes.. That could be effect..

lesser_minion
2010-07-15, 06:45 PM
Okay.. I thought tier 3 was deemed to be something that was great at what it was supposed to do and decent at other things.. Which IMO fits rogue beautifully. I mean rogues are great at doing what they were meant to.. And they are decent fighters, both in melee and can work good at range as well. With their skills they work as good faces and monkeys..

EDIT: I see myself using a rune of power with vampirism and one of the greater runes.. That could be effect..

A rogue is tier 4. Its most useful option is to stab stuff a load of times with twin daggers, and it's a few levels before it can even manage that.

Being able to do stuff out of a fight as well is nice, but it doesn't make the class into any real powerhouse.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-15, 08:33 PM
A rogue is tier 4. Its most useful option is to stab stuff a load of times with twin daggers, and it's a few levels before it can even manage that.

Being able to do stuff out of a fight as well is nice, but it doesn't make the class into any real powerhouse.

That sounds right. A wand of Greater Invisibility and UMD can allow some frightening amounts of damage though...

Fizban
2010-07-16, 03:32 AM
2: The Weapon isn't overpriced anymore. In fact, it is sometimes cheaper than an equivalent NORMALLY enchanted weapon: A +1 Runic Greatsword with a Flame Rune added costs a total of 3350 gp. The equivalent normal weapon is a +1 flaming greatsword, which has a price of 8350 gp.
Okay, so in some situations it's not overpriced. You still have to spend gp in order to use your class abilities, and you still have to buy all the extra runes in order to exploit weaknesses... or at least try to.


3: You can exploit these weaknesses if the monster actually has any of them. Being versatile enough to always break DR is useful. In addition, the "Efficiency" ability at level 13 further encourages Runeblades to play this way, giving 50% extra damage when he bypasses DR or exploits a true weakness, like using fire attacks on a Mummy. With that ability, DR actually can become a liability.
I don't see any ways to bypass DR at all. No way to alter your weapon's material or gain an alignment descriptor, and if you're using a sword there's no way you're ever going to get past a lich's 15/magic and bludgeoning.


5: A fighter may carry around wondrous items, but the Runeblade has UMD, which is alot better anyway on average.
Okay, so it has UMD. So does everyone else who's serious about their job. Anyone can take it cross-class, and it's worth buying an item to boost it if you have to.


6: Also, past the first few levels, Fighters don't have many useful feats remaining to take. Some of the better ones (like weapon focus) give a +1 bonus to hit. Let's face it, most of these feats are pathetic at above level 6 or so. It's like someone at WOTC nerfed them because he thought they would overpower full casters.
Weapon focus is not a good feat. It is widely considered to be one of the worst feats there is, and even with just the core books it's still only filler when you run out of other feats. While it's true that there aren't many high level feats, and fewer still that are worth taking at a high level, the fighter is still going to have all the good ones while a Runeblade isn't.


7: I am aware that Runic Weapons are generally not available at level 1 unless your DM is very generous. There is a reason I gave them regular simple and martial proficiency. At these first few levels the Fighter is stronger, indeed. But, in these early levels, the Fighter is also stronger than the wizard. (And we all know how that turns out by level 20.)
Not everyone plays from 1 to 20 in every game, and in any game where that doesn't happen the "balancing factor" never comes into play. And even if it does, it's not fair to say "hey, you had your fun last month, now it's my turn!". Not everything is going to be balanced against everything else at all levels, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try.


In conclusion, I believe the Runeblade as written is significantly more powerful than the average Fighter if played correctly.
I'm pretty sure you're basing this assessment on pure damage output. The fighter can already deal plenty of damage. A well built fighter can deal enough damage to drop the most powerful foes in the game to half hp easily, or completely dead with a few dips and/or the right magic items. Damage is not the fighter's problem. The Runeblade (especially with the edits you've made since I posted), can deal out some ridiculous damage without even trying, which I guess means it at least has a role better than the Soulknife, but that doesn't make it better than a fighter. Of course, +30d6 sonic damage on all attacks will do that. So, yay overcompensating? I'd still take a fighter any day.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-16, 04:21 AM
I don't see any ways to bypass DR at all. No way to alter your weapon's material or gain an alignment descriptor, and if you're using a sword there's no way you're ever going to get past a lich's 15/magic and bludgeoning.

Actually, there is a "Rune of Dulling" that changes the damage type to bludgeoning. There are also equivalents for piercing and slashing. There is no way to add an alignment descriptor at the moment, but only because I forgot to add it to the "Rune of Holiness" and family. I will fix that in a minute.
And thanks for the Material Transmuting Rune Idea!




I'm pretty sure you're basing this assessment on pure damage output. The fighter can already deal plenty of damage. A well built fighter can deal enough damage to drop the most powerful foes in the game to half hp easily, or completely dead with a few dips and/or the right magic items. Damage is not the fighter's problem. The Runeblade (especially with the edits you've made since I posted), can deal out some ridiculous damage without even trying, which I guess means it at least has a role better than the Soulknife, but that doesn't make it better than a fighter. Of course, +30d6 sonic damage on all attacks will do that. So, yay overcompensating? I'd still take a fighter any day.

Actually, the Runes of Control are meant to help out with Battlefield Control. The main problem with a Fighter is that yes, he can take a ridiculous amount of damage, but unless you get some spiked chain cheese or the like, there is nothing really stopping enemies from just walking past him and wailing on the softer targets. Runes of Control changes all that. By level 4, you can more or less have an at-will grease spell, meaning that enemies have a much harder time just walking past him. By level 8, you can add an at-will web spell to make it even harder to deal with him. At level 12, you can have Hold person or Magic Circle against Alignment. By Level 16, You have near-total control with your choice between Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Dimension Door, and Solid Fog. At level 20, If you really want to, you can get Wall of Force. You. Win. Period.

The Fact that you WILL have more skills than the Fighter is Icing on the Cake.

Lix Lorn
2010-07-16, 05:43 AM
Oh, I agree that you shouldn't have to pay for your abilities. Just... no.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-16, 06:57 PM
The half spellcasting is certainly an improvement, although it's still not much, and it's not unique either (warlocks can do almost exactly this)

Remember that at-will isn't particularly significant -- the main cost of any given spell is the time it takes to cast.

Except for Rune of Pain with its ten minute casting time, all of the spell-like abilities have a casting time of 1 action. I'm fairly sure that the "at-will" simply means that you don't run out.

Quarian Rex
2010-07-17, 03:39 PM
Some thoughts.

Perhaps adding a variant of the Artificers' Retain Essence ability where a deconstructed magic item of any type adds the Xp used to create it, as well as half of the gold used in the magical empowering, to a split Craft Reserve (separate pools for Xp and Gp). This would mitigate having item powered class abilities and allow the Runeblade to make use of his share of magical loot.

Also, the Mold Runic Energy feat needs to be a class feature available at first level. This is intrinsic to the class and the player should not be forced to blow a feat to be capable of using his class (tis like requiring a Wizard to blow a feat to craft his spellbook).

I like what you have done with the Runes but if they are stackable they have to be modified. Perhaps removing the 'Rune of Improved X' line and having the 'Rune of Greater X' line use 2 Rune Slots. This would allow a damage boost at substantial cost but keep things a little further away from crazytown (this would leave a +10 Runeblade focused on elemental damage doing +28d6 instead of +42d6). In fact, just drop the Rune of Power. It makes DMs cry.

In regards to damage you should drop the Efficiency ability. Tis a cumbersome mechanic (determining which types of damage it might apply to in varying situations will give DMs a headache) and the class is doing more than fine in the damage department. Again, best to veer away from crazytown. Or, if you want to preserve the spirit of the ability, just change it to add a flat +1d6 or 2d6 damage when an attack bypasses Damage Reduction. Simple, easy to determine when it applies, and meshes well with established rules (elemental and weapon damage are considered separate for modifiers/mitigation).

Overall I like the class quite a bit. Once you overcome the necessity to devote all of a characters wealth to his class abilities it seems pretty solid. The damage capabilities on the blade runes may need some further tweaking to not have the DM throw a book at you.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-18, 02:13 AM
Actually, you have some very good points, but nerfing the potential damage is simply falling into the trap of every melee character in existence. +42d6 damage at level 20 is a pittance compared to the things a wizard or even a sorcerer could do at that level. Yes, you can do a truly frightening amount of damage in a single slash. A wizard at that level can Chain-gate infinite CR 21 Titans in the same amount of time. Or Major Creation Anti-Osmium for over 195 Quadrillion damage. Or just abuse Wish.
On the other hand, the altered mechanics idea for efficiency seems reasonable, as, ironically enough, the current mechanic is less efficient and elegant than I would like. I would go for a scaled boost though, probably based on Runic Power.
Adding the craft feat as a class feature is no problem, really.

About the Artificer Ability, I am not sure how to describe it or even what exactly an artificer does. Based on the name, it sounds like a crafting class, but I don't know much else. If you would word such an ability for me, I would be glad to add it.

Thank you for the input!


requiring a Wizard to blow a feat to craft his spellbook
To be fair, that would help to balance him out. Only slightly, but every little bit counts.

ADDENDUM: If anyone tries to playtest this in an actual adventure, tell me how it goes! Please!

Quarian Rex
2010-07-19, 11:52 PM
+42d6 damage at level 20 is a pittance compared to the things a wizard or even a sorcerer could do at that level. Yes, you can do a truly frightening amount of damage in a single slash. A wizard at that level can Chain-gate infinite CR 21 Titans in the same amount of time. Or Major Creation Anti-Osmium for over 195 Quadrillion damage. Or just abuse Wish.


o.0

Yeah... Perhaps you should reread that little section there. And no. No wizard can do that. Not without the DM slapping said player upside the head with a chair.

Convoluted Rules-As-Written stupidity found in the theoretical optimization forum should not be used as the measuring stick to balance a class.

Again, I implore you to reconsider the damage capabilities of the class. As is, you currently have a full BAB class that gains Epic weaponry at level 12, some unlimited use at-will utility spell-like abilities, and unrestricted sustained/burst damage capabilities that are 5x stronger than that of a Rogue (by unrestricted I mean that you do not need to flank/have target denied Dex./etc. Elemental damage may be countered by resistance/immunity but Analyze Weakness effectively negates that limitation and becomes an advantage in the case of a target with an elemental weakness) that is available on all iterative attacks.

Don't let the earlier posts saying that the class is weak go to your head. Currently, the potential damage capabilities (at all levels) are such that any sane DM would ban it from his game. Please note my caution in my previous post to avoid crazytown.

P.S. I noticed the change to Efficiency. Please note what I have already mentioned. You just added additional damage equal to the full sneak attack damage of a same leveled Rogue. Think real hard on that.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-20, 02:27 AM
o.0

Yeah... Perhaps you should reread that little section there. And no. No wizard can do that. Not without the DM slapping said player upside the head with a chair.

Convoluted Rules-As-Written stupidity found in the theoretical optimization forum should not be used as the measuring stick to balance a class.


Fair Enough. The Abuse of Wish is still valid though. In fact, a suicidal Wizard could simply Wish the universe out of existence, especially if he was to word it in a way so as to bypass a clever DM/Genie.



Again, I implore you to reconsider the damage capabilities of the class. As is, you currently have a full BAB class that gains Epic weaponry at level 12, some unlimited use at-will utility spell-like abilities, and unrestricted sustained/burst damage capabilities that are 5x stronger than that of a Rogue (by unrestricted I mean that you do not need to flank/have target denied Dex./etc. Elemental damage may be countered by resistance/immunity but Analyze Weakness effectively negates that limitation and becomes an advantage in the case of a target with an elemental weakness) that is available on all iterative attacks.


Actually, the entire point of this class exercise was to create a "Sturdy Brawler" that will not be entirely overshadowed by the local Full Caster or CoDzilla by 20th level without turning it into a Gish. Granted, the spell-like abilities are pushing it a bit, but there is still much less bookkeeping involved.

To be fair, he gains ACCESS to Epic weaponry at level 12. Technically, A Fighter could use epic weaponry at level 1 if he could get his hands on it. As for the sustained/burst damage, I am not sure what you are referring to. If you speak of Runestrike, it is limited in uses per day and by level. If you speak of the Rune of Power... ...I see your point, that one needs a nerf, or perhaps simple removal.



P.S. I noticed the change to Efficiency. Please note what I have already mentioned. You just added additional damage equal to the full sneak attack damage of a same leveled Rogue. Think real hard on that.
:smalleek:Good Catch! I suppose that is what PEACH is for. I'll fix that in a jiffy.

Quarian Rex
2010-07-20, 05:28 PM
Fair Enough. The Abuse of Wish is still valid though. In fact, a suicidal Wizard could simply Wish the universe out of existence, especially if he was to word it in a way so as to bypass a clever DM/Genie.

Really, the brokenness of Wish is way overblown. Seriously. Crack open the Phb and re-read the spell. It cannot even duplicate a 9th level spell without the DM warping it. Any attempt to make Wish do more than what has strictly been laid out means that the DM is obligated to mess with both you and your character in direct proportion to the shenanigans that you are trying to pull. Trying to out-wit the DM with some half-baked legalese in the Wish wording merely adds to said shenanigans and will be appropriately punished. The DM is never the dumbest guy in the room. Assuming that one could use a spell with clearly defined limitations to break his game is somewhat silly.

In any campaign that I have ever played the Wish spell is generally feared by all casters and rightly so. Not to mention that no mater what you do with it it will cost you 5,000 xp a crack. And I haven't seen a game yet where a Thought Bottle was allowed (ie. no getting around the cost).

But I digress.




Actually, the entire point of this class exercise was to create a "Sturdy Brawler" that will not be entirely overshadowed by the local Full Caster or CoDzilla by 20th level without turning it into a Gish. Granted, the spell-like abilities are pushing it a bit, but there is still much less bookkeeping involved.


I understand your goal here, I really do, but you have really overshot your mark. You have a character who, by 20th level, has the potential equivalent of a +50 (or higher, total bonus) epic weapon (due to the undervaluing of Rune Slots). In other words, you can pack a metric crap-ton into that blade. Tis too much.




To be fair, he gains ACCESS to Epic weaponry at level 12. Technically, A Fighter could use epic weaponry at level 1 if he could get his hands on it.


Now you are just trying to be silly. Epic weapons do not exist pre-epic because the DM hasn't put them in the world. If, somehow, said fighter gained access to an epic weapon it would not be merely part of his adventuring gear, it would be the center of the entire campaign. Kings would demand it as tribute, churches would demand their artifact back, and everyone else would be looking to kill the PC to take what he is incapable of holding onto.

As to merely gaining access, I'll address that in a minute.



As for the sustained/burst damage, I am not sure what you are referring to. If you speak of Runestrike, it is limited in uses per day and by level. If you speak of the Rune of Power... ...I see your point, that one needs a nerf, or perhaps simple removal.


By sustained/burst damage I mean the raw damage capabilities of this class over both the long-term and short-term. Lets take a look at and example of what can be done with what you have so far. We'll call him Bob.

Bob is a 12th level Runeblade. Lets be conservative and say that Bob started with an Int of 16 (future level increases going to Int of course) and took the Outmaneuver feat. As a 12th level character Bob had Wealth-By-Level of 88,000 gp (see the DMG for the WBL table). Bob decides that he wants to max his damage and ramps up his Runeblade to +6 with six Runes of Greater Thundering. This costs Bob (in total)...

30,000 (1/3 the base cost of 90,000 for a +6 Runeblade since he is making it himself) + 11,000 (the creation cost of six Runes of Greater Thundering) = 41,000 gp (note that this is even cheaper if he uses the Rune of Power, only costing 37,000 gp)

This is less that half of his WBL. With the rest he can get a Headband of Intellect (16,000 gp), +4 Armour (16,000 gp), +3 Shield (9,000 gp and blowing off a feat or two for proficiency), Amulet of natural armor +1 (2,000 gp), +1 Ring of Protection (2,000 gp), and still have 2,000 gp left over for miscellaneous.

He would have an AC of 29 (assuming dex of 12, Full-plate, and Buckler) and Bob now has an attack sequence that looks like +24/+19/+14 doing 2d6 (greatsword) +15 (Enhancement bonus + 1.5xInt bonus) + 18d6 Sonic + 3d6 (Efficiency - if DR is penetrated) = 23d6+15

That is averaging 96 damage per hit (153 damage max, not counting criticals). Considering the ACs of CR-equivalent foes it can be assumed that he hits with most of his attacks (even his tertiary attack has a better than 50% hit chance on most tough foes). So this 12th level character can easily do between 300 and 450 damage per round. He can shatter any threat in his CR range in one round.

This is without optimizing or party buffs at all! And saying that this is only a potential is incorrect as well. As can be seen, this damage can be accomplished without really sacrificing the other basic equipment.

Again, as is, this is a class that with never ever be allowed into any game. Unless the DM is running the D&D equivalent of Dragon Ball Z.



:smalleek:Good Catch! I suppose that is what PEACH is for. I'll fix that in a jiffy.

Again though this is still too high. You are looking at minimum of an extra 20d6 damage per round at 20th level (+5d6 damage per each of 4 attacks). This is the sort of mechanic that entire Classes/PrCs are based on. And you have just added it on as an unneeded bonus (thematically, it is not integral to the concept of the class). If you want to keep it lower it to +1d6 (or scale it up to +2d6 at the absolute most). Having a mechanical reason to go to the trouble of penetrating DR is good. Having the bonus for penetrating the DR be several times greater than the base damage of the weapon itself? Way too much.

If you want to fix this I suggest completely removing the 'Rune of Improved X' line and the Rune of Power, and having the 'Rune of Greater X' line use 2 Rune Slots and cost double (they are too cheap and far too easy to stack and this would put them in line with your alignment runes). Currently there is absolutely NO reason whatsoever to add runes to the blade that are not Greater elemental runes. You have a beautiful array of options (the other runes) and mechanics designed to allow those options to be used to best effect (Analyze Weakness) but they will never be used. No-one will go to the trouble of changing their weapons damage type/material/alignment when they look at the fist-full of d6's that they have to give up to do it. Removing a players choice (by making one option so good that all others pale in comparison) is poor game design. We try to avoid such things.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-20, 07:17 PM
If you notice, I did significantly nerf the Rune of Power, but I can see your point. On second thought, ditching the Improved line and crippling the Greater line really helps balance a bit. I was going for Tier 3, not 1.

Quarian Rex
2010-07-20, 08:23 PM
If you notice, I did significantly nerf the Rune of Power

Sorry. I didn't notice at the time. Much better. In fact, I would suggest dropping the Rune Slots used from 3 to 2. This will make the new version more attractive without making it a no-brainer.

After taking a look through the runes again here are some thoughts...

Rune of Keen Edge - Perhaps state here that it is as per the Keen Edge spell with the exception that it effects the weapon regardless of its damage type (piercing, bludgeoning, etc.)

Rune of Bleeding - You just need to state whether this stacks with itself (ie. three failed Bleed saves equals 3 damage per round).

Rune of Dulling, Rune of Thinning, and Rune of Sharpening - Should probably drop the Rune Slot cost from 2 to 1. You get no real mechanical benefit from switching damage type other than to bypass rare types of DR. The character is already paying a time/action cost in detecting the DR and switching out runes, no need to make the loss of weapon power too painful.

Rune of Death - Personally I think this one is way overpriced. Vorpal tends to be over-rated as it only triggers on an natural 20, not a crit. Its usefulness is highly situational. Nonetheless, it does have the potential to lop off the BBEGs head on the first round of combat. I'd drop the Rune Slot cost from 5 to 3. Still not very attractive (to me anyway) but at least you aren't wasting the majority of your blades power on something that will only affect 1 out of 20 swings.


On second thought, ditching the Improved line and crippling the Greater line really helps balance a bit.

Remember, it's not crippling. It's putting things in line with what you have already established as balance. If you compare the Rune of Greater Thundering (at a cost of 2 Rune Slots) and the Rune of Holiness they should be about equivalent in a players eyes. On the one hand you have 3d6 sonic damage and on the other you have 2d6 untyped damage (cause lets face it, just about everything a player fights is evil) and the DR penetration component [Good]. The decision is no longer so obvious. Making the player have to choose between multiple good options is exactly what you want.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-21, 08:09 PM
There, your suggestions have been implemented. I can say, I like this a lot better. Rather than just inflicting Inane (And Insane) amounts of damage, it actually seems to allow versatility and Ingenuity, something virtually no Fighter-type class can seem to do.

Quarian Rex
2010-07-22, 06:58 PM
It looks damn good. While I was rereading the class I noticed something that could be fleshed out a little...



Runic Power: ... As the runeblade's experience with this effect grows, he becomes progressively more able to use this effect without shattering his bones.


Perhaps add an effect where if anyone attempts to wield a Runic Weapon with Runic Power greater than they can handle they suffer a number of d6 untyped damage equal to the Runic Power of the weapon minus the Runic Power of the wielder (ie. 6d6 when a commoner grabs a +6 Runic Weapon, and 2d6 then an 8th level Runeblade has the same weapon), when the Runic Weapon is picked up, at the start of each the wielders turns, and with every attack made with the Runic Weapon.

The bit of fluff there seems like it needs a bit of crunch behind it. What do you think?

Drothmal
2010-07-22, 08:51 PM
This class is awesome! thanks for sharing!

How about a rune that increases the weapon size by one step or a power that is like enlarge or expansion?

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-22, 11:52 PM
Quarian Rex: I like the idea, but you just have to feel sorry for that poor 1st level commoner with a d4 hp that takes 6d6 untyped damage. EDIT: Done.

Drothmal: Thanks for the praise, but those thoughts are scary. Enlarged Grease and Wall of Force at will are frightening things. A huge-sized spiked chain with monkey grip is also rather scary.


By the way, I was thinking of perhaps whipping up a PrC or two designed especially for Runeblades who want to try alternate routes to power but do not want to give up Runic Power progression. What do you guys think? (Meaning, of course, whomever answers rather than just these two acknowledged here.)

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-25, 04:28 AM
No comments? At all?

Quarian Rex
2010-07-25, 04:29 PM
Well, that depends on what you had in mind for the PrCs. What kind of alternate progressions were you thinking of?

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-25, 06:47 PM
Perhaps something that sacrifices progression of the runes of control and the replacement and analysis trees for the ability to mess around with their armor the same way a normal runeblade modifies his weapon properties. Or something else along that track.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-27, 05:28 PM
No more comments? It's been a couple of days.

BladeofOblivion
2010-07-31, 11:03 PM
It's Been Six Days. I'm getting lonely down here.

mrcarter11
2010-07-31, 11:49 PM
I tried helping.. And my suggestions got nerfed.. So I am not the best person to try and help you any.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-01, 03:45 AM
Ah, but the idea, the root of the mechanic, was kept. The idea is the value that may later be rebalanced as is seen fit. Your ideas were indeed helpful. Getting it perfect initially is so rare that refinement is a normal part of any process.

mrcarter11
2010-08-01, 11:29 AM
Fair enough. I'd play it as is. If just once to see how I like it. After that I can tell you more, the main problem is finding a DM who likes homebrew and then finding one who'll let me have a rune weapon. And also give me access to the runes. In any case, it should be playable. If nothing else, make the PrC's you seemed to want so much. My guess would be an armor version and maybe a forger version. Or could try making a rogue-ish PrC class for the stealthy Runeblade.

Lix Lorn
2010-08-01, 02:22 PM
I still think that charging them for the runes is really, really a crippling weakness.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-01, 04:05 PM
If you say so. They are dirt cheap past level 5 if you craft them with the feat. And there is no good reason not to on an INT-based class.

Cainen
2010-08-01, 04:21 PM
As nice as the concept is, you really don't need to be giving a class stronger at-will Grease and other spellls like it, especially a class that already benefits from dropping Strength. I know the intent's to make it a semi-anti caster class, judging from the more powerful Dispel Magic and the like, but a lot of its abilities are better at shutting down non-casters instead.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-01, 05:31 PM
It is supposed to combine the roles of DPS and battlefield control into one. It is capable of shutting down almost any character with the correct selection of feats and abilities.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-02, 12:13 PM
This Post Reserved For First PrC
Still a Work in progress.

Skills: 2 + Int modifier

Class Skills: Knowledge(Arcana)(Int), Spellcraft(Int), Craft(Int), Profession(Wis), Use Magic Device(Cha);

Runecaster
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|Mana

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Runic Arcana +1, Formation|10

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|Runic Arcana +2|20

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Runic Arcana +3|30

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Runic Arcana +4|40

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Runic Arcana +5, Runeshape|50

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Runic Arcana +6|60

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Runic Arcana +7|70

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|Runic Arcana +8|80

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|Runic Arcana +9|90

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Runic Arcana +10, Competence|100 [/table]

Runic Arcana(Ex): As the Runecaster becomes more competent in his area of expertise, His mental power becomes greater and more able to handle the strain of complex Formation. The Runecaster's Runic Arcana Score determines the maximum amount of Mana he can expend in a single spell.

Formation(Sp): A Runecaster is capable of forming new spells spontaneously using a unique seed-based mana-based casting system. Each seed has a Mana Cost that determines the relative power of the seed. The combined Mana Cost of each seed makes up the total Mana Cost of the spell. A spell's Mana Cost cannot exceed the character's Runic Arcana Score. The Character has a set amount of Mana available per day, and casting any spell using this ability subtracts the Mana Cost of the spell from the total mana pool for the day. Only one spell may be cast each round, as a standard action. Like other spellcasters, 8 hours of uninterrupted rest replenishes the Mana Pool. There are Four types of seeds: Target Seeds, Effect Seeds, Duration Seeds, and Range Seeds, though the latter may not be applicable depending on the particular Target Seed. Further, Effect Seeds are divided into the categories of Destructive, Entropic, Morphic, Generative, Fortifying, and Manipulating. Multiple Effects can be applied to a single spell, but using effects from multiple categories causes the spell to suffer a cumulative +1 Mana Cost for each school used. For example, using fire and cold in the same spell has no penalty, as those effects are both destructive. However, using fire and miasma in the same spell has a +2 penalty, as fire is destructive whereas miasma is Entropic.

Target Seeds:

Touch Seed:
Range Seed Applicable: No
Effect: Spell is cast on target as a melee touch attack.
Mana Cost: +0

Self Seed:
Range Seed Applicable: No
Effect: Spell is applied to caster.
Mana Cost: +0

Ray Seed:
Range Seed Applicable: Yes
Effect: Spell is cast at target as a ranged touch attack.
Mana Cost: +1

Blast Seed:
Range Seed Applicable: Yes
Effect: Spell is cast on any point within range. Spell is cast on all targets in a 5ft radius burst from that point. Additional Mana can be spent to increase the radius of the blast by 5 ft for every point of Mana expended this way.
Mana Cost: +2


Effect Seeds:

(Seed Name)
Effect Type: (Destructive, Entropic, etc.)
Duration Applicable: (Yes, No)
Effect: (What exactly happens to the target)
Mana Cost: +(Whatever)

Duration Seeds:

Short Duration Seed:
Effect: Affected Spell lasts a number of rounds equal to the caster's Runic Arcana Score.
Mana Cost: +0

Moderate Duration Seed:
Effect: Affected Spell lasts a number of minutes equal to the caster's Runic Arcana Score.
Mana Cost: +1

Long Duration Seed:
Effect: Affected Spell lasts a number of hours equal to the caster's Runic Arcana Score.
Mana Cost: +2

Persistent Duration Seed:
Effect: Affected Spell lasts 24 hours.
Mana Cost: +3


Range Seeds:

Close Range Seed:
Range: 25ft + 5ft/2 Runic Arcana
Mana Cost: +0

Medium Range Seed:
Range:100ft + 10ft/Runic Arcana
Mana Cost: +1

Long Range Seed:
Range:400ft + 40ft/Runic Arcana
Mana Cost: +2




Runeshape(Sp): The Runecaster gains the ability to shape his spells to his desire. However, each 5 ft square affected by the spell must remain in contact with another affected 5 ft square. He cannot increase the total area of the spell, nor can he make the effects of the spell go beyond its range.

Competence(Ex): The Runecaster gains bonus mana equal to five times his INT modifier.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-04, 02:49 PM
Any Ideas for Effect Seeds are Welcome!

This is the format:

(Seed Name)
Effect Type: (Destructive, Entropic, etc.)
Duration Applicable: (Yes, No)
Effect: (What exactly happens to the target)
Mana Cost: +(Whatever)

If you want to make it interesting, try making it scalable so that the exact strength of the effect is proportional to the Mana Spent on it. For example, the Mana Cost could be +X, with an effect of "Target takes Xd6 fire damage."

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-08, 12:44 PM
Does no one Care?

mrcarter11
2010-08-09, 12:43 AM
You take many things to heart man. I wouldn't mind trying to help you some more if you want. I like the class for the most part. Let me know if you want the help.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-09, 02:21 AM
I'd be glad to have it.

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 12:36 AM
Okay, I will try my best to help you with this, since I really do like this class. But help will be slow, RL decided to act up and get people arrested. So, effect seeds. How many of each type would you like to have? If it is a small number, we can get them from other sources like spells, psions, and maneuvers. And are you still browsing for ideas for the other PrC's? Or more runes? I was thinking for runes, what if you had one that allowed people to heal someone for the damage dealt usable a number of times equal to class level? Or a weakening rune, granting a -1 to attack or damage of the people it strikes.

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 12:40 AM
And I have a feeling this was answered before, but can range weapons or double weapons be rune weapons? If so returning would be nice for range. And if double weapons are usable, does each side get the rune bonus?

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 12:54 AM
You can't have Ranged Runic weapons, but you can have runic double weapons. Cost is for each side though. On the bright side, you can have sides that do different things.

Effect seeds are supposed to be variable enough to create a multitude of spells.

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 01:11 AM
Okay, so double weapons wouldn't be cheap at all. So, do you think you could gain your seed effects from spells and maneuvers. And thoughts on rune ideas.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 01:14 AM
Spells are fair game, and I am not really clear on what maneuvers are. (mechanically)

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 01:18 AM
From ToB. I mean,those would give you lots of possible ideas and whatnot. And if you really want, I can sit down and try to stat out some tomorrow maybe. I might have to go to court so, not sure yet. But I can try to stat them out or we can do together. Up to you as the OP.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 01:27 AM
You do as you desire. You are not beholden to me in any way. That said, whatever you can do would be helpful.

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 01:29 AM
I know that, I am just trying to assist you. As I like your class. So, I shall see what I can work out tomorrow. And are you doing another prestige class and do you still want more runes?

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 01:38 AM
Preferably both. Versatility is good.

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 01:43 AM
Okay, well you can make a PrC that focuses on the Runes of Control. Runes... Never heard any comment on either idea, could use a blinding rune, a rune that adds something static to a roll. Or could scrap power attack as a feat and make a 3 slot rune.

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 01:50 AM
Those last three are a little dangerous to put in the hands of players. I might make some updates next time I have access to an actual computer rather than typing on my Itouch

mrcarter11
2010-08-11, 01:53 AM
I think a rune of blinding would be nice. +4 slots. Each successful attack in the encounter induces another +10% miss chance for a max of say 50%?

BladeofOblivion
2010-08-11, 02:09 AM
That is cruel and yet awesome.

nhbdy
2010-10-01, 04:09 AM
*thread necromancy*

I saw this thread a while ago, and decided to look it up, a lot of it has changed since then, it seems much more powerful than it was before (which is good, because when I saw it last, it was neat, but really weak). Now it looks pretty good, but I don't know how it balances/stacks up against/with other classes.

So my question is this, has anyone playtested it in it's current form? If so, how does it stack up and how balanced is it?

Qwertystop
2010-10-05, 08:50 PM
I am going to DM a game soon, and I'll try to get one of my players to use this. I'll tell you my results as well as I can.

(Neither I nor the players have ever played D&D before, and none but me have done any research on it. This essentially eliminates all cheap rules exploits.)

Edit: I would have thought the prestige class would be something closer to the first Runeblade, but with armor instead of weapons. This spell one isn't very related to the Runeblade, its just super-spontaneous spellcasting. It's a good idea, just not very Runeblade-y.

Also:

An effect seed based on Suggestion, but better (maybe it makes your foe into your ally, so they are not bound into one specific command), and only on enemies who are unable to resist (from hold person, hypnosis, confusion, etc) or taken by surprise (from caster being invisible, behind a wall, etc). If cast on yourself, some kind of save against fear, being shaken, any other thing that is essentially convincing you to stop, but not physically enforcing it (Cause Fear would be stopped, not Hold Person)

Qwertystop
2010-10-24, 12:44 PM
Here are my first results for using the Runeblade (still in character generation):
We are starting at Level 3, and I have found it to be very expensive. The Recommended Wealth Level for a 3rd Level character is 2700 gp, and a +1 runic weapon (the weakest Runic weapon allowed) adds 2800 to the cost. I had to raise the starting gold of my players 300 above RWL (to 3000) so that he could afford a +1 Runic Warhamer and scalemail, plus a few gp on the side. He still can't afford any runes, even if he had no armor. I am therefore planning to put a low-level runeblade as a foe, so that he can loot some runes and see why not to multiclass immediately, as he cannot afford that much equipment.

BladeofOblivion
2010-10-24, 12:51 PM
Here are my first results for using the Runeblade (still in character generation):
We are starting at Level 3, and I have found it to be very expensive. The Recommended Wealth Level for a 3rd Level character is 2700 gp, and a +1 runic weapon (the weakest Runic weapon allowed) adds 2800 to the cost. I had to raise the starting gold of my players 300 above RWL (to 3000) so that he could afford a +1 Runic Warhamer and scalemail, plus a few gp on the side. He still can't afford any runes, even if he had no armor. I am therefore planning to put a low-level runeblade as a foe, so that he can loot some runes and see why not to multiclass immediately, as he cannot afford that much equipment.

Yeah, that's a problem I saw coming. You must remember that a +1 Runic Weapon is an adaptable equivalent of a standard +2 weapon. I really couldn't justify making it cheaper.

Runestrike is useful at level 3 though, even if you can't use it with a weapon yet.

It is possible to get a runic weapon by level 3 if you offer crafting xp, but not otherwise.


...And I don't believe two months is quite thread necromancy yet.

monkman
2010-10-24, 01:11 PM
it would help if you wrote the abilitys
The runeblade need X(str,con,dex,intel,wis,cha) abilty beacuse of X(powers,attack,hp,etc) thing

Lix Lorn
2010-10-24, 01:13 PM
I said from the start, the ENTIRE POINT of the class is that it gets runes. If you make them cost money, the class is not great. Look at the Soulknife: It's weapons come for free, and it still SUCKS.

Rennard
2010-10-26, 01:03 AM
I said from the start, the ENTIRE POINT of the class is that it gets runes. If you make them cost money, the class is not great. Look at the Soulknife: It's weapons come for free, and it still SUCKS.

I agree with the above poster.

I think what's happening here is that you are looking at this wrong. The reason for charging PCs for their magic items is that they give the players additional powers - powers that they can customize to fit the role their class combination plays. They are force multipliers. When combined with existant class features, they quickly spin out of control, and balance is lost, so the cost was implemented to reign it in.

But in this class' case, the magic IS the class feature. That's the same as charging the wizard gold to cast his spells. He is charged for scrolls and the like because they enable him to become more effective than the basic class accounts for. The runes are not a force multiplier for any class features, because the primary feature of the class is the runes. Charging money for them (even nominal amounts) does not balance the class, because the magic isn't additional power added on to class abilities, it's the ability the class gets.

Toxin605
2010-10-30, 08:17 PM
Awesome Class! gimme five!