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Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 05:14 AM
In my current campaign I am hopfully going to be hitting level 6 soon and I was going to take the leadership feat. Now I seem to be picking up a common belief that leadership is broken and over powered. Can someone explain why ?

In the game world it seems libaries are rare and owned by either mage guilds or private nobles. Books however seem plentiful. Now my character has a plan to bring reading and books to the masses. The plan is to open a library. I want leadership to get a cohort who can run the place while I am away searching for more rare books or off getting money to support the place.

If I am running a library, what abilities / spells would be usful to run the place, this is including any way to make sure I know where loaned books are to get them back ?

Any other ideas for security and such I should plan for ?

I am current a level 3 wizard / level 2 book seller (well ok a lvl 2 rogue, but its best not to tell people or they tend not to trust you).

pingcode20
2010-07-13, 05:18 AM
The reason people consider it overpowered is the cohort - with Leadership, you get a second character only a little bit weaker than you. Two levels weaker, in fact. So, for instance, you could get another wizard (Wizard 4) just as good at wizarding next level, essentially doubling your wizardly mojo.

But so long as you're not taking your extra character out adventuring on a regular basis and leaving them home to tend the shop except on special occasions, it should be fine.

Coidzor
2010-07-13, 05:26 AM
If I am running a library, what abilities / spells would be usful to run the place, this is including any way to make sure I know where loaned books are to get them back ?

Any other ideas for security and such I should plan for ?

I am current a level 3 wizard / level 2 book seller (well ok a lvl 2 rogue, but its best not to tell people or they tend not to trust you).

Nah. It's when you start passing notes with the DM that they start to distrust you. :smalltongue:

Well, some way to smother flames is going to be essential. Some reliable way to mark the books as the library's property, agreements from the local merchants guilds not to traffic in them. Some manner of overcoming/avoiding forgery use against you and your cohort.

I believe there are divination spells which can locate an object or a person via some object of theirs. So you'd need a secure place to put the collateral or what have you for a lending.

Hmm. Trying to think of the cheapest/simplest iminions to reshelve things, and all I can think of would be the 1st level followers overseeing hireling pages.

Skeletons aren't quite in your area yet, or that of your cohort, and they can't really shelve things... If you had a cloistered cleric... you could eventually buff his rebuke up and get some mummies for him. If Mirror Mephits didn't have such a powerful simulacrum ability, this might actually be a place where they could be used without being Munster Cheesington.

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 05:32 AM
Ooops my fault didn't give enough information.

I am wizard (spec dinvination, barred Necro) that would rule out undead helpers. I will get the leadership followers to help.

Getting agreements from local merchants is a good idea. Also hadn't even thought of marking books as libary property. I haven't been a libarian long.

Ravens_cry
2010-07-13, 05:33 AM
It's overpowered because of the action economy and the resources economy, potentially giving you, the player, more of everything.
For your library, I recommend putting your arcane mark on everything, that way you can prove the books are yours.

nedz
2010-07-13, 05:38 AM
I've run a couple of games where people (actually the same person) have played librarians. This character concept suprised me at first but can lead to some interesting side quests to recover some valuable tome, as well as allowing for library searches etc.

The issue of Leadership falls, like so many things, into two camps; with some people thinking the feat should be banned and others quite happy with it. This seems to depend upon the style of the campaign.

Coidzor
2010-07-13, 05:39 AM
Ooops my fault didn't give enough information.

I am wizard (spec dinvination, barred Necro) that would rule out undead helpers. I will get the leadership followers to help.

Getting agreements from local merchants is a good idea. Also hadn't even thought of marking books as libary property. I haven't been a libarian long.

Well, you've got arcane mark. I believe that's permanentish. But yeah. You definitely need to mark them somehow. After all, you said it yourself. You're a bloody rogue. Books are valuable.... If you're able to get them for less than what it would cost to buy them wholesale....???? Profit.

you'll want to make a lesser geas or geas trap ASAP though, as soon as you can. That'll make them have to return 'em.

You'll probably want to get a couple of locations for book drop off points as well if it's a larger city.

What're your cohort and followers going to be?


I've run a couple of games where people (actually the same person) have played librarians. This character concept suprised me at first but can lead to some interesting side quests to recover some valuable tome, as well as allowing for library searches etc.

The issue of Leadership falls, like so many things, into two camps; with some people thinking the feat should be banned and others quite happy with it. This seems to depend upon the style of the campaign.

In this case, depending upon how the library works and how the DM swings it.... it at least seems that it's not going to really be an abuse, more like... a way to further this part of the plot.

Kosjsjach
2010-07-13, 05:50 AM
Where do you stand on magic traps? If your ultimate goal is the proliferation of knowledge through the written word, then you could consider setting up a printing press of sorts in the form of an auto-reset Amanuensis "trap". (The spell is a cantrip found in the Spell Compendium; here are the the magic trap crafting rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost).)

Each "trap" can copy 1440 pages per day (one page per minute); you could "rent" texts from others, copy them, then return them to their owners and have a copy for your library. Hire some people with ranks in Craft: bookbinding and voila!

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 06:12 AM
What're your cohort and followers going to be?


I am thinking wizards, of course this is negotiable. To be honest I just need more libarians, I would be happy with NPC experts.

Loren
2010-07-13, 06:44 AM
note that acccording to the SRD followers can only have NPC classes, so while the cohort can be a wizard the rest can't without DM fiat.
One other concern is that your proposed use of the feat sounds underpowered. For the reasons explained above the feat is often considered overpowered, and clearly it is worth more than say a +1 on an attack. However, if you don't get any use out of it beyond the pleasure of knowing that people are reading more, well, why are you taking it?
Now don't get me wrong, I applaude the RP potential. It's just that more D&D I've seen is about combat and trapfinding (with a bit of diplomating thrown it to tie it all together). What you propose will require an investment of a substantial amount of capital (you need a building, furniture, and a collection, among other things) and a feat which will produce little to no return in what are the key aspects of the game. However, if the other players are doing similar things you won't be falling too far behind in terms of power, so all is good (in fact, it'd sound like you have a really interesting group to play with).

Psyx
2010-07-13, 07:02 AM
Why use a feat for this? Could you not simply hire a few trustworthy people.

The Leadership feat harks back to the bad old days of people dragging NPCs around the dungeon with them, so you're paying a premium for that service.
That's not what you're looking for; you need someone who can look after books and be trusted not to spill burning wax everywhere. Spend GPs; not feats!

Eldan
2010-07-13, 07:05 AM
Leadership is, in my opinion, really broken. Now, it can be broken in two ways:

If you intend to use it in combat, it's somewhere between "annoying" and "overowered", probably both. Why?
Imagine you are level 17. Your cohort is level 15, and you are both casters. What happened? You now control two characters. Your cohort can cast level 8 spells, which are very powerful, and essentially not only gives you more slots perday, it allows you to cast a second spell every round.

Outside of combat, I find that Leadership is either quite nice or useless, depending on how the DM handles it. Usually, when my players want to do something like this, say, build a library, I let them do a few missions for it. Look for like-minded individuals. Acquire capital. Speak to people and get them to help you. Nothing of that, in my opinion, should require a feat.
If the DM thinks a feat is worth it, then yes, getting it is okay.

Just never take your followers with you into combat. Rolling for 20 pieces of cannon fodder is very annoying.

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 07:10 AM
Where do you stand on magic traps? If your ultimate goal is the proliferation of knowledge through the written word, then you could consider setting up a printing press of sorts in the form of an auto-reset Amanuensis "trap". (The spell is a cantrip found in the Spell Compendium; here are the the magic trap crafting rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/traps.htm#magicDeviceTrapCost).)

Each "trap" can copy 1440 pages per day (one page per minute); you could "rent" texts from others, copy them, then return them to their owners and have a copy for your library. Hire some people with ranks in Craft: bookbinding and voila!

This is perfect for my character I am going to have to speak to the GM to allow it but it all should be fine. I honestly wouldn't have thought of making "traps" to repeatly cast spells but it all seems to make sense.

I can then go about "Borrowing" books from other libaries and making copies of them, I should hopfully be able to return the books before anyone knows they are missing.

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 07:16 AM
Why use a feat for this? Could you not simply hire a few trustworthy people.

The Leadership feat harks back to the bad old days of people dragging NPCs around the dungeon with them, so you're paying a premium for that service.
That's not what you're looking for; you need someone who can look after books and be trusted not to spill burning wax everywhere. Spend GPs; not feats!

I do see what you are saying but I want to be able to trust these people. If I am just paying GP I don't think I can (as a player, with my GM and) in character.

I am sure I can squeeze some use out of the wizard cohort for other usful things.

When reading the description of the feat leadership, it never occured to me that one player would run himself and the cohort, I would have always just thought the DM made an NPC and ran it along as a DMPC in the group.

Psyx
2010-07-13, 07:24 AM
"I can then go about "Borrowing" books from other libaries and making copies of them, I should hopfully be able to return the books before anyone knows they are missing."


Just rent. Historically; monasteries and suchlike rented books (for 1 year typically) so that they could be copied. Even if it costs 50gp, it's still a small amount to spend, compared to the comparative bother that could result in getting caught.

mpollack
2010-07-13, 07:36 AM
How your campaign runs might depend on what development period you are in. To make running a library easier, I will assume that the printing press has just been invented.

Prior to the printing press, there were only a few books in the world, all books were written by hand, and only by religious elites. The start of the printing press is seen much like how iPods are seen today: book producers think this will be the end of all media and maybe civilization, while the political and religious elites fear a threat to their power. As a result, printers guilds start to form. They get exclusive rights from the state to publish and sell books, and in return agree to self censor their materials.

In other words, starting a library could lead to some friction with authors, publishing guilds, and the state.

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 07:42 AM
In other words, starting a library could lead to some friction with authors, publishing guilds, and the state.

I am kinda hoping for this. Its always good to shake things up a bit isn't it. If they have a problem with me and my libary then they an bring it on. More plot hooks more adventure.

It seems to be asumed that magical copying of books is available in the world (I even know how it can be done. thanks to help in this thread) so I think there are books out there and simple copies too, just that knowledge seems to be kept from the masses. I aim to change that.

Earthwalker
2010-07-13, 07:45 AM
Just rent. Historically; monasteries and suchlike rented books (for 1 year typically) so that they could be copied. Even if it costs 50gp, it's still a small amount to spend, compared to the comparative bother that could result in getting caught.

I will mention renting books to my DM, but I am hoping that the libary and the search for books will bring up plot hooks and chances for my character do what he does best (namly borrow things). The main problem will be making sure the other PCs have things to do, or ways to help in my adventure.

Yora
2010-07-13, 07:50 AM
Outside of combat, I find that Leadership is either quite nice or useless, depending on how the DM handles it. Usually, when my players want to do something like this, say, build a library, I let them do a few missions for it. Look for like-minded individuals. Acquire capital. Speak to people and get them to help you. Nothing of that, in my opinion, should require a feat.
If the DM thinks a feat is worth it, then yes, getting it is okay.
As I see it, the difference between hired employes and followers is that the followers will stay with you, even when you can no longer pay them. They would not take bribes to betray you or work for someone else if he offers better pay and lodging.

Of course there's the problem that it's very easy to get a very high Leadership score at higher levels, so you can have a cohort of 2 levels lower. But I think the idea of the feat isn't that bad.

Lord Loss
2010-07-13, 07:50 AM
I am kinda hoping for this. Its always good to shake things up a bit isn't it. If they have a problem with me and my libary then they an bring it on. More plot hooks more adventure.

It seems to be asumed that magical copying of books is available in the world (I even know how it can be done. thanks to help in this thread) so I think there are books out there and simple copies too, just that knowledge seems to be kept from the masses. I aim to change that.

I'd make your cohort (And maybe even your followers)an archivist. It really fits the ''Librarian'' concept well, and they have acces to divine spells.

thompur
2010-07-13, 10:26 AM
Use the cantrip Amenuensis(I'm probably mispelling it) from the SC. It allows you to copy non-magical writings.

Mojo_Rat
2010-07-13, 11:16 AM
One reason i think people feel leadership is over powerede is i get the impresson alot of people when they take leadership basically get to design their own cohort.

Im pretty sure it isnt supposed to work that way, the DM decides who is attracted to following you and then presens them as interested in joining your cause.

But ultimately who and what you get is decided by the Dm obviously it should be a colaberation of ideas but the Dm in the end should bt ehw one making it.

Psyx
2010-07-13, 11:17 AM
"As I see it, the difference between hired employes and followers is that the followers will stay with you, even when you can no longer pay them. They would not take bribes to betray you or work for someone else if he offers better pay and lodging."


GPs are replaceable though. Feats aren't.

NowhereMan583
2010-07-13, 11:23 AM
One reason i think people feel leadership is over powerede is i get the impresson alot of people when they take leadership basically get to design their own cohort.

Im pretty sure it isnt supposed to work that way, the DM decides who is attracted to following you and then presens them as interested in joining your cause.

But ultimately who and what you get is decided by the Dm obviously it should be a colaberation of ideas but the Dm in the end should bt ehw one making it.

How we usually do it is that the player gets a say in the sort of personality they want their cohort to have, and often their race and class. However, the DM actually stats them out. And there's no rule that says the cohort HAS to be the maximum level allowed by the player's Leadership score, so if the DM doesn't want to add an NPC that powerful, he simply doesn't make the cohort that strong. And, of course, the cohort is an NPC, so the DM is the one that ultimately steers them around.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-13, 02:56 PM
There s rarely a problem with the leadership feat so long as the player remembers the golden rule of sidekicks. Sidekicks are sidekicks. They are great for guarding the horses and keeping the home safe. They help put whenever they can, but they ARE NOT A MAIN CHARACTER.

If you want a character to sit in town and make you magical stuff and reserch and create rare spells. Great, get a cohort. Do you want a guard to follow you around and guard things you need to be guarded. Great, get a cohort.

If you want a batman wizard to follow you around and dominate every combat then look elsewhere. A cohort needs to be just that. Someone who helps out without ever being in the spotlight.

Also look into the Heros of Battle for feats to double your followers and let your cohort be higher level.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-13, 02:58 PM
There s rarely a problem with the leadership feat so long as the player remembers the golden rule of sidekicks. Sidekicks are sidekicks. They are great for guarding the horses and keeping the home safe. They help put whenever they can, but they ARE NOT A MAIN CHARACTER.

If you want a character to sit in town and make you magical stuff and reserch and create rare spells. Great, get a cohort. Do you want a guard to follow you around and guard things you need to be guarded. Great, get a cohort.

A crafting wizard cohort with a few hundred level one experts can make a lot of stuff. That is a lot of +2's from aid other. A +1 int mod expert can take a ten and aid other on crafting skills he has and spellcraft for reaserch.

If you want a batman wizard to follow you around and dominate every combat then look elsewhere. A cohort needs to be just that. Someone who helps out without ever being in the spotlight.

Also look into the Heros of Battle for feats to double your followers and let your cohort be higher level.

Coidzor
2010-07-13, 03:29 PM
A crafting wizard cohort with a few hundred level one experts can make a lot of stuff. That is a lot of +2's from aid other. A +1 int mod expert can take a ten and aid other on crafting skills he has and spellcraft for reaserch.

Can... Can artificers benefit from Aid Another? :smallconfused: Can't...quite...recall... Then again, it's not like it's a very difficult roll...


Of course there's the problem that it's very easy to get a very high Leadership score at higher levels, so you can have a cohort of 2 levels lower. But I think the idea of the feat isn't that bad.

If you have anything approaching a decent leadership score when you first are able to take the feat (and do so) you get the cohort of the max level available to you, and then he levels up as you do, if he's participating. :smallconfused:


GPs are replaceable though. Feats aren't.

Nah, just more expensive if the DM doesn't allow retraining rules. Convoluted and annoying if he bans psionics.

Lothmar
2010-07-13, 04:14 PM
As I see it, taking the leadership feat is a short cut - basically a time saver that allows you to say 'yeah during my long journies i've meet like minded peopled etc who will answer my call and work for me if I ever send for them.'

Sadly though, just by taking leadership does not mean that all your followers are fanatically loyal to you - in fact, perceptions can very wildly between various individuals for various reasons - especially based on in game moments etc (ex: if you embarass-insult-abuse one of your followers repeatedly, they're likely not going to be that friendly even if they know you're the one in charge).

However, the one good thing about leadership is that... You dont have to pay them! ^^ Though, it likely helps to boost morale etc.

Leadership is also interesting since its 'as youre legend rises more people continue to flock to your grand library in hopes of joining your following!' angle automatically - then again, such things would normally have to happen regardless, but for the most part you can consider your cohort has handled the interview etc and has found them relatively trustworthy/useful if you didnt approve them yet.

But yeah, you probably want Acolytes as your NPC class for the bulk of your followers - though a few experts to handle trade, maintenance, etc would be useful as well.

As for building the library, It may be a little expensive to do it this way but I would suggest building it with the 'stronghold builders guide' and then at Level 9 taking the Feat in there (landlord or something like that?) that gives you alot of gold etc for the expansion and upkeep of the library itself. You can also use the money it gives to buy books since there are library components that you can buy - and they give bonuses to skill checks in their fields as well. ^^

But yeah, overall I dont really have much advice.

Coidzor
2010-07-13, 04:18 PM
But yeah, you probably want Acolytes as your NPC class for the bulk of your followers - though a few experts to handle trade, maintenance, etc would be useful as well. Acolytes? Do you mean Adepts (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/npcClasses/adept.htm)? Or is this an npc class I've just never encountered?


As for building the library, It may be a little expensive to do it this way but I would suggest building it with the 'stronghold builders guide' and then at Level 9 taking the Feat in there (landlord or something like that?) that gives you alot of gold etc for the expansion and upkeep of the library itself. You can also use the money it gives to buy books since there are library components that you can buy - and they give bonuses to skill checks in their fields as well. ^^

Point about the landlord feat. Though... I believe someone posted a fix of the stronghold builder's guidebook's prices... which if you're going to use it at all, you'll want to have, as otherwise landlord is entirely essential to get it to work with that book's vanilla ruleset at all.

If you're taking from that, try to get the fix too.

Yora
2010-07-13, 04:25 PM
If you have anything approaching a decent leadership score when you first are able to take the feat (and do so) you get the cohort of the max level available to you, and then he levels up as you do, if he's participating. :smallconfused:
A yes. That guy still gets XP until he's 2 level under you, forgot about that.