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W3bDragon
2010-07-13, 05:37 AM
I'm blessed with a large group of friends that play D&D. We played many 4, 5, and 6 player games (plus DM) and had fun with them. But more recently, our attempts at large games that accomodates the whole group (all 8 of us) result in extremely slow and sluggish games that never last more than a few sessions. Those attempts put most of us off gaming for a while.

Eventually we picked it back up and split into two groups, each playing a different campaign with a different DM. That worked out well, but we kinda miss the chance of all of us getting together for the session.

So the two DMs (I'm one of them) decided to try a new campaign where both of us would help each other out in DMing and the rest will play. So it'll be 2 DMs and 6 players. The campaign will be an epic dungeon crawl. From 1st to 20th, or so we hope.

We (the DMs) decided to implement some houserules to speed up combat, with the hopes of doing 5 to 6 encounters per session as opposed to 1 encounter when we tried with 1 DM + 7 players.

Here's what we came up with so far:

* In combat, once initiative is determined, DM1 takes action declarations in turn while DM2 resolves these actions. So, PC2 cannot wait for PC1's full action to be resolved before declaring, but he'll know what PC1 declared he'll do.

* 30 second timer to declare your action or loose your turn (might be shortened later.) Get +1 on your action (attack, save dc, etc) if you declare within 10 seconds.

* No delayed actions.

* Immediate actions are treated as swift actions thus can only be taken during your turn.

* No cohort or summons.

* No polymorph (except for druids)

* Any attack or spell that does more than 3 dices of damage will instead always deal average damage.

* No offensive dispelling before 15th level (I'm dubious about this one. thoughts?)

There is more, but those are the big changes. The idea here is to streamline combat and keep things moving. Anything that can disrupt the "resolve two actions at once" setup has been adjusted. (Changed that)

I'd like to hear your thoughts on these house rules as well as any other suggestions you might have. Thanks!

Vitruviansquid
2010-07-13, 05:45 AM
Another idea is to split the groups out of game, but have them play in the same campaign world, though as two different parties. The DMs can collaborate to craft an intertwining campaign, where the parties have to deal with the consequences of each other's actions sometimes or compete against each other sometimes.

Every once in a while, when everybody has the day off, you can schedule extended sessions, where the two groups get together for an epic mission or something.

As for the rules bit... perhaps just timing people's turns would turn on the pressure for them to know what they intend to do before they do it? Give players about 10 seconds to tell the DM what they want to do.

Runestar
2010-07-13, 06:28 AM
One more is to take note of actions which require a lot of real time to resolve, and discourage players from using them, citing your desire to keep the pace flowing.

Some of the more serious offenders include dispelling, summoning, multiple attacks, anything which requires rolling a ton of dice, polymorph line of spells, lv drain, ability damage/drain and generally stuff which require you to recalculate stuff in the midst of combat.

Encourage them to decide what to do on their turn by the time it comes up (typically by planning beforehand on other players' turns).

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-13, 07:48 AM
Just try to make sure everybody is paying attention when it's not their turn. It really helps a lot not needing to re-explain the situation just because people don't know what's happened since their last turn.

valadil
2010-07-13, 09:20 AM
Two ideas. When calling out initiative announce whose turn it is now and who is on deck. That should give the next player a full turn to read the board and decide what to do. Really helpful if your players lose focus between their turns.

Give +1 for actions taken immediately at turn start. It rewards players who don't waste time reading through their powers when they're supposed to be acting.

sdream
2010-07-13, 09:37 AM
I'd suggest encouraging splitting the party. That way the whole party can be together sometimes, or a couple folks can head off with one GM, then remerge later.

kjones
2010-07-13, 09:41 AM
Instead of having everyone go in initiative order, take the highest initiative player and go clockwise. This has obvious problems but is the simplest and most effective solution.

Disallow anything that involves extra actions or acting out of turn. (summoning, cohorts, immediate actions, etc.) Think about whether or not you want this to apply to AoOs as well.

However, all this stuff is meant to speed up combat, which is important, but your game will really suffer when you're trying to have meaningful dialogue or interactions between eight players at once. What will happen is that the loud ones will do all the talking and the quiet ones will sit back and be ignored. The only solution that I know of to this problem is to play in smaller groups, which has the added bonus of solving all your other problems as well.

subject42
2010-07-13, 09:43 AM
When I've done large groups, I have a "state your action in six seconds or lose your turn" rule. I've even used a chess timer to make it happen.

If you can do that, combat goes smoothly and gets a real feeling of intensity, even in a large group.

prufock
2010-07-13, 10:04 AM
Instead of having everyone go in initiative order, take the highest initiative player and go clockwise. This has obvious problems but is the simplest and most effective solution.

If you do this, I'd suggest randomizing the seating order each session.

W3bDragon
2010-07-13, 10:17 AM
I like some of these ideas. I'll edit the first post with the ones I'll use. I'd love to hear from more people that have had personal experience with large group games that lasted a long time. More ideas are of course welcome as well.

I've also given further thought to the idea of initiative grouping and decided against it. Instead we'll have DM1 asking people to declare actions in initiative order (using the timer). Once PC1 declares, DM2 starts resolving his action and DM1 gets PC2's actions, etc. Once DM1 falls behind in action resolution, DM2 stops taking declarations and starts resolving actions as well. That way the players still have a semblance of what the people going before them are doing and can act accordingly.


Another idea is to split the groups out of game, but have them play in the same campaign world, though as two different parties. The DMs can collaborate to craft an intertwining campaign, where the parties have to deal with the consequences of each other's actions sometimes or compete against each other sometimes.

We tried that once. It never really worked out because maintaining pacing between to separate groups ended up being disruptive. Also, the point is for all of us to get together in one place and play together. As things stand, both groups have the weekly session on the same day, but in different places.


Two ideas. When calling out initiative announce whose turn it is now and who is on deck. That should give the next player a full turn to read the board and decide what to do. Really helpful if your players lose focus between their turns.

Give +1 for actions taken immediately at turn start. It rewards players who don't waste time reading through their powers when they're supposed to be acting.

I like those. I'll probably limit the +1 benefit to the first few sessions only, to get people in the habit.


If you can do that, combat goes smoothly and gets a real feeling of intensity, even in a large group.

Yeah I'm really hoping the timer spices up the game instead of making players feel pressured.

Fouredged Sword
2010-07-13, 10:20 AM
Pre-roll die. I have had a d20 future mecha game that had 12 players. We could run combat fairly quickly by cutting out all dicerolling during the actual character's turn. The rule was when your init came around you needed all your die rolled for your action, (so if you wanted to attack you rolled your attack roll, damage roll, and any other roll you thought may come up like miss chance.)

The DM used a computer to roll up a few 100 d20's and to quickly tally mass die rolls. Characters took less than 10-15 seconds to run thier whole action. That really saved the game.

You do need a lot of dice though.

Another option is the M&M card system. That works great, even if you draw one card at a time. Drawing a card is faster than rolling a die.

That system you remove all face cards then all red cards are thier face value and black cards are face value +10.

valadil
2010-07-13, 10:26 AM
I like those. I'll probably limit the +1 benefit to the first few sessions only, to get people in the habit.


I haven't actually used this technique myself yet. Hadn't heard of it until recently and my current group plays quickly enough. What I read about it though is that it will make players so eager to take their actions that they'll make flawed decisions. The +1 balances those out.

I also suggest you encourage your players to have their dice ready ahead of time. If your rogue requires 8d6 for his sneak attacks, he should have those in hand before you call initiative. The +1 for acting fast encourages this.

subject42
2010-07-13, 10:32 AM
It's not straight 3.5, but the stuff in the "Initiative Tips from the Gamemastery Guide" section in the Pathfinder SRD is globally useful.

http://www.pathfindersrd.com/gamemastering---final/combat---final

nedz
2010-07-13, 10:35 AM
I've found that higher level games often run more slowly (more rules to look up, more strange spell combos, more attacks etc).
So the obvious solution is to run the game at low level, E6 maybe ?

Jastermereel
2010-07-13, 11:47 AM
The group I'm with ran with 1 DM and 10 players for a while (we slowly grew from a smaller, but still oversized group) and splitting it in two was the best thing we could have done.

It isn't just that you need to be ready with your action, it's that, with 10 players, you're, at best, getting to really interact for 6 minutes every hour and so for 54 your attention tends to wander...which means it takes longer just to figure out what you should do since the field changes a lot after 9 other players and the DM get done with it.

So we split it up, 2 DMs with two groups, one of 4 and one of 5 players. We, like you, would still like to have cross-group events, or perhaps scramble the parties from time to time as it's still a big group of friends, but with a rift (albeit a friendly one) right down the middle. However, I'm not sure a big-party event would work all that well given that we'd be returning, even if just for a little while, to a painfully slow and cumbersome approach.


If, however, you're set on it then consider having 2 DMs. One in charge of the campaign and running the sessions, and the other deputy DM helping to move the turns along, settling rule disputes and generally moving the herd of players along. Sitting in initiative order or having initiative follow seating can work.

Use initiative cards, to keep the turn sequence clear and to give the DM easy instant access to the player's saves and ACs. Have any summoners declare in advance of a session what they expect to use so that initiative cards for the creatures can be prepared. Flipping through the MM for 2-3 minutes in the middle of the battle kills momentum. Same goes for spells. If it isn't "Touch attack for 3d6 fire", have it written out on a cheat-sheet.

Regarding pre-rolling, have a pool of dice handy independent of each player's personal set so that anyone in need of extra damage dice can quickly draw from there, rather than negotiating with their neighbors to borrow the D6s.

I'd be careful with the 30 second time rule. It's much easier for a barbarian to say "I thwack him" than for other more magical classes to explain the action they'll be taking. And certainly be forgiving with this rule when it turns out the player can't take the action they thought or when the situation changes. Unless the player knows in advance that their attack will kill a foe, they can't be expected to be prepared for what they do next.

W3bDragon
2010-07-14, 04:58 AM
The group I'm with ran with 1 DM and 10 players for a while (we slowly grew from a smaller, but still oversized group) and splitting it in two was the best thing we could have done.

It isn't just that you need to be ready with your action, it's that, with 10 players, you're, at best, getting to really interact for 6 minutes every hour and so for 54 your attention tends to wander...which means it takes longer just to figure out what you should do since the field changes a lot after 9 other players and the DM get done with it.

So we split it up, 2 DMs with two groups, one of 4 and one of 5 players. We, like you, would still like to have cross-group events, or perhaps scramble the parties from time to time as it's still a big group of friends, but with a rift (albeit a friendly one) right down the middle. However, I'm not sure a big-party event would work all that well given that we'd be returning, even if just for a little while, to a painfully slow and cumbersome approach.

Indeed, our first impression when we split up into two groups was that its the best thing we could have done, but its been close to two years since we've played together in one large group and it would be nice to give it a shot. I'm guessing that if it doesn't work out, then we'll just go back to two groups after a few sessions.


If, however, you're set on it then consider having 2 DMs. One in charge of the campaign and running the sessions, and the other deputy DM helping to move the turns along, settling rule disputes and generally moving the herd of players along.

That's what I want to do. Initially I was thinking of both DMs resolving actions together for 2 players at the same time, but instead decided on having one DM run the game while the other keeps track of player status (sneaking, invisible, has bear's endurance for another 2 mins, etc) and during combat, one DM will run the monsters and take action declarations from players while the other resolves player actions.


Use initiative cards, to keep the turn sequence clear and to give the DM easy instant access to the player's saves and ACs. Have any summoners declare in advance of a session what they expect to use so that initiative cards for the creatures can be prepared. Flipping through the MM for 2-3 minutes in the middle of the battle kills momentum. Same goes for spells. If it isn't "Touch attack for 3d6 fire", have it written out on a cheat-sheet.

Regarding pre-rolling, have a pool of dice handy independent of each player's personal set so that anyone in need of extra damage dice can quickly draw from there, rather than negotiating with their neighbors to borrow the D6s.

I'm thinking of using a dry erase board with magnets to track initiative, though I guess it would be very useful to have the players' important stats all written down somewhere. We'll also be banning summons. As for large dice damage, I'm thinking we'll just use average damage instead of rolling it.


I'd be careful with the 30 second time rule. It's much easier for a barbarian to say "I thwack him" than for other more magical classes to explain the action they'll be taking. And certainly be forgiving with this rule when it turns out the player can't take the action they thought or when the situation changes. Unless the player knows in advance that their attack will kill a foe, they can't be expected to be prepared for what they do next.

I'm planning to be flexible with the timer while still enforcing it. I've found that some players can act quickly whether they have a caster or a melee character, while some players take forever even using a simple barbarian with things like: "Umm.. I want to end up in that square, but don't want AoO, so umm, I go here, then.. okey that's 15ft, I have 25 left, I can cross there.. umm... uhhh.."

Jastermereel
2010-07-14, 06:52 AM
That's what I want to do. Initially I was thinking of both DMs resolving actions together for 2 players at the same time, but instead decided on having one DM run the game while the other keeps track of player status (sneaking, invisible, has bear's endurance for another 2 mins, etc) and during combat, one DM will run the monsters and take action declarations from players while the other resolves player actions. I think the latter approach is much safer. The former opens up all sorts of causality issues about what happens when unless each team has a different area of focus in the room, in which case, it'd still be two groups essentially.

That said, it could be useful to structure an adventure that way. The two groups are working together (and perhaps with their rosters scrambled a bit), but in parallel. So, in storming the castle, group A takes out the gatehouse guards, so B can sneak in and take out the local lord. Group B disables the doomsday device while A covers their progress, dealing with the monsters pouring in the door to stop them. They'll aid one another, and directly impact each other's goals, but without demanding a significantly larger initiative list.


I'm planning to be flexible with the timer while still enforcing it. I've found that some players can act quickly whether they have a caster or a melee character, while some players take forever even using a simple barbarian with things like: "Umm.. I want to end up in that square, but don't want AoO, so umm, I go here, then.. okey that's 15ft, I have 25 left, I can cross there.. umm... uhhh.."
Helping the slower players figure out those details is a perfect job for a Deputy DM.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2010-07-14, 08:07 AM
my own group has never really had a problem with big groups. we have one game right now with 9 players and 1 gm. . . things go pretty smoothly.

a few genreal rules we use that may help

1. dont argue with the gm in combat: you can talk to him about it at a break
2. know when your up and be prepared with what your going to do.
3. know all your spell efects, ability effects, and save dcs etc.
4. if you take too long your character will be skipped in initiative (ie okay your characer is preparing for what he's gonna do next round) not a problem for people who actually follow rule 2
5. have a back up plan that you can use if circumstances change before your turn comes up.
6. KNOW YOUR OWN CHARACTER. it drives the rest of us nuts when someone sits there going. oh shoot i cant find where I wrote my bonuses to damage. (you should not need to find them you should know them)
7. shut up and pay attention even when its not your turn. (This is both respect to the other players and so you know whats going on. its very rude to sit there talking with the guy next to you about how awsome that last thing you did was, when the person at the other end of the table is trying to do their awsome thing. And the distraction can slow everything down because the Dm will have to pause, or someone wont hear their cue.)

valadil
2010-07-14, 09:08 AM
I'm thinking of using a dry erase board with magnets to track initiative, though I guess it would be very useful to have the players' important stats all written down somewhere. We'll also be banning summons. As for large dice damage, I'm thinking we'll just use average damage instead of rolling it.


The best method I've seen for tracking initiative uses index cards and the GM screen. Fold each card in half. Write the players names on front and back of the folded card. Drape the index cards over your DM screen in order of initiative. The card farthest to the right goes next. Pluck it off the screen and add it to the left side of the queue.

This makes it very easy for the players to see the order of play. And it doesn't have any overhead if players delay their actions or otherwise shuffle initiative. Just pull their card off the screen, add it back on when they take their turns.

The only downside is that it requires use of a GM screen, which some people are opposed to.

Person_Man
2010-07-14, 09:33 AM
I also think that E6 would help a lot.

Another potential house rule would be to eliminate full attack actions, Quickened actions, and limit move actions to movement. If everyone uses Standard or Full Round action spells, powers, abilities, and strikes (Tome of Battle to the rescue!) things go much much faster.

Kroy
2010-07-14, 09:43 AM
My advice: Roll initiative at the beginning of the session, arrange seats from highest to lowest, and use that order for the rest of the session. Also helps with non-combat when players all want to screw around in different places.

Kaiyanwang
2010-07-14, 10:36 AM
All things above are good.. just to add..

- State clearly that they must pay attention more and chat less than the average.

- I generally prefer large combats, but in this case is better adjust enemies, even through homebrew, to be worthy even alone, because 10 monsters and 8 players can be a mess.

- moar talk RPG than evar.

WarKitty
2010-07-14, 11:15 AM
Also, keep initiative out of combat for dividing up loot, talking, etc. It's almost required to have some sort of "whose turn it is to talk" thing going, to make sure everyone gets the chance to talk.

obliged_salmon
2010-07-14, 11:44 AM
3.5 tends to be pretty lethal anyway, but you might try putting a mechanic in of bad guys make a will save when they're injured (circa 15), failure means they run away or surrender or the like.

Another_Poet
2010-07-14, 01:04 PM
This should help a lot (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109995) when designing boss encounters.

DracoDei
2010-07-14, 04:37 PM
I don't know that ALL Immediate actions need to become Swifts, only the ones that are pro-active. For instance, the 1st through 3rd level Diamond Mind counters don't slow the game down (and can, very rarely) speed it up.

Which reminds me... use the maneuver cards if you are using ToB.

Rixx
2010-07-14, 04:46 PM
I find this works well - reroll initiative every round, using 1d10 minus half your initiative bonus. Don't ask players to call out their initiatives - instead, count from 0 up to 10, and ask the players to call out when their number is called.

This way, higher initiative becomes more valuable (as you will go first more consistently), and players remain engaged in combat, as they will never be sure exactly when their turn will come or if they'll get to act before the enemy for sure.

All this, and the DM doesn't have to track initiative, either!

LibraryOgre
2010-07-14, 05:08 PM
If you have a whiteboard or something of the sort, write out initiative, so everyone can harass the people who are next in advance. YOu might also consider having everyone "take 10" on initiative, rather than rolling, and have people roll damage dice with their attacks (especially if making a single attack). If making two attacks, roll both dice at once, with an understanding of which is which (if it matters).