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Shademan
2010-07-13, 06:57 AM
so my brother wants me DM for him and some firnds and he wants to play a sorcerer. However, he finds the Verbal component for sorcerers to be, in his words "gay"*. And in a way I agree... I mean, sorcerers have magic in their blood. why would they need verbal and material components? would it imbalance the game if I let him NOT use those two components?
game is E6 low fantasy BTW







*) note that this is not meant to be slanderous towards homosexuals

Dracons
2010-07-13, 07:01 AM
However, he finds the Verbal component for sorcerers to be, in his words "gay"*

*) note that this is not meant to be slanderous towards homosexuals

Then why even mention it? You could have just said you dislike the idea of it.



It's up to you. Your the DM. I give my sorcerers Eshew Materials at level 1, and not increase the casting time. (Seems alot of DM's do).


Up to you for the free Silent Spell feat. If you like the idea of him being able to cast magic while gagged, or him being immune to deafen spell and silence spell, go ahead.

(Immune in the sense he'll be perfectly able to cast the spells with no peneties. Just yep. Cast. Hazaah*

Livingdead
2010-07-13, 07:03 AM
One of the reasons i imaginet hey need those components is to bring the magic out of their blood to shape the magic that is inherent within them. Without such components they could not shape a spell and would spew raw energy about. That is my opinion though.

As for unbalancing the game, it would. Imagine if he were tied up to a tree. Without Somatic components he could use any spell even despite hi mbeing tied up. Now imagine a field of silence. Without Verbal components he would be the most effective caster out of anyone in that field.

Snake-Aes
2010-07-13, 07:05 AM
As for unbalancing the game, it would. Imagine if he were tied up to a tree. Without Somatic components he could use any spell even despite hi mbeing tied up. Now imagine a field of silence. Without Verbal components he would be the most effective caster out of anyone in that field.

Hellooooo psionics!

Dracons
2010-07-13, 07:06 AM
As for unbalancing the game, it would. Imagine if he were tied up to a tree. Without Somatic components he could use any spell even despite hi mbeing tied up. Now imagine a field of silence. Without Verbal components he would be the most effective caster out of anyone in that field.

Note: If he is tied up, he couldn't do anything Somatic, as that still requires movement. He wants to do it without material compantants, and without speaking.


He just wants to wave his hand.

On the other hand, he can no longer do the awesome speaking of "Surrond by enemies with the flames of hell itself! Burst With the power of the stars itself, FIREBALL!"

Dracons
2010-07-13, 07:07 AM
Hellooooo psionics!

*cough overpowered*

Yeah yeah, even with the PP point limit, which ALMOST makes them kinda balanced compared to wizards for their free handsfree, voice free, everything free, they're still massivelly overpowered.

Take away their pp limit and be like wizards? Yeah. Godlike.

Livingdead
2010-07-13, 07:11 AM
Sorry, my bad. Read incorrectly.

Any sorcerer I make I always just take the eschew materials feat. I have never really found it unbalanced as sorcs don't get as many feats as wizards.

Devils_Advocate
2010-07-13, 07:13 AM
Why would sorcerers need spell components? Well, why would they have the same spell list as wizards? Why would they use spell slots? In short, why aren't they psions instead of sorcerers? :smalltongue:

To paraphrase someone or other, a sorcerer is like someone who can design a working nuclear reactor despite having no training and having no real clue how he does it.

Sometimes mutant superpowers just don't make sense like that.

Dracons, Wizards are more powerful than Psions. Even in core, Wizard spells are cheesier than Psion power.

Runestar
2010-07-13, 07:13 AM
Well, if the sorc never finds himself in a situation where silent/stilled spells are crucial, then removing those components won't really do any harm, right?

I say, yeah, just give it to him. :smallsmile:

Amphetryon
2010-07-13, 07:14 AM
*cough overpowered*

Yeah yeah, even with the PP point limit, which ALMOST makes them kinda balanced compared to wizards for their free handsfree, voice free, everything free, they're still massivelly overpowered.

Take away their pp limit and be like wizards? Yeah. Godlike.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means. :smallwink:

Telonius
2010-07-13, 07:14 AM
Personally I give all Sorcerers free Eschew Materials. But free Silent is another thing altogether. To put it in perspective, a Lesser Rod of Metamagic (silent) is 3,000 gp. You're essentially giving that to a first-level character for free, and letting him use another rod at the same time if he finds one - and letting him trade up to regular and greater rods for free as soon as he can cast spells of that level.

If I were a Sorcerer with this, I'd have a friendly Bard or Cleric cast Silence on me as often as possible, then park myself next to enemy spellcasters and blast away.

Shademan
2010-07-13, 07:18 AM
Yeah, I'm giving it to him. he's gonna need it with his 4HP :smallbiggrin::smallwink::smalltongue:

Psyx
2010-07-13, 07:21 AM
If he doesn't like the idea, then let him spend his feats on silent spell, and maybe (if you are really generous and don't mind fudging the rules) easy metamagic with it.

He's just spent two feats, but he's got the character he wants. It's only fair; if I want my character to not be bad at spotting things because I think it's 'gay' not to be able to spot things then I buy ranks in spot. I don't expect it for free.

Hendel
2010-07-13, 07:22 AM
Pathfinder gives Sorcerers the Eschew Materials feat for free and it does not seem to me to be overpowering at all. I would hesitate to give them Silent Spell for free. Rather, I would not mind giving them the Silent Spell feat for free at some point, but I would not just make ALL sorcerer spells with no verbal component.

One of my favorite tricks when I grapple, then pin someone, is to make them not be able to speak and so they cannot cast verbal only spells like teleport or d-door. My DM always used to get mad when my Psion would still manifest from within a grapple. Not a very common occurance but it does happen.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-13, 07:32 AM
Hellooooo psionics!
*cough overpowered*

Yeah yeah, even with the PP point limit, which ALMOST makes them kinda balanced compared to wizards for their free handsfree, voice free, everything free, they're still massivelly overpowered.

Take away their pp limit and be like wizards? Yeah. Godlike.

Either your games are very low-powered, or you have no idea what you're talking about. The ability to cast "spells" while completely bound and gagged just isn't that powerful, and psionic powers are generally more versatile but not as strong as the equivalent arcane spells.

Psions are comparable to Sorcerers. They're both just behind the Wizard.

Roland St. Jude
2010-07-13, 07:53 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please avoid using "gay" as a pejorative - even as a quote of others.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 09:26 AM
...Is this still open?

You don't need to give him Silent Spell for free. It's E6, he'll have plenty of feats to get it if he needs to, and Still Spell as well. Just be sure to pick up Rapid Metamagic from Complete Mage and he'll be good to go.

If it's indeed low fantasy as you say, then you'll want him to make the effort to make his spells undetectable. Perhaps it's just my definition of "low fantasy" but casters should have more challenges, not less.

Also, it's in your best interests to listen to Roland, as we have a very diverse group of posters here in the Playground. *points to sig*

Ravens_cry
2010-07-13, 10:09 AM
Man, I must be tired, I read the title first as soccer questions.
Dang, and here I was hoping for rules for footie in D&D.

Dracons
2010-07-13, 12:57 PM
Any sorcerer I make I always just take the eschew materials feat. I have never really found it unbalanced as sorcs don't get as many feats as wizards.

You do know that since it's changed by metamagic, it's now a full round action to cast those spells, right? (Not that I ever follow that rule with metamagic and sorcerers, but RAW, they are required to use a full round action to use that feat)



Dracons, Wizards are more powerful than Psions. Even in core, Wizard spells are cheesier than Psion power.
Yep they are. That's why I said that the PP limit ALMOST makes them balanced to wizards, not more powerful.


Either your games are very low-powered, or you have no idea what you're talking about. The ability to cast "spells" while completely bound and gagged just isn't that powerful, and psionic powers are generally more versatile but not as strong as the equivalent arcane spells.

Psions are comparable to Sorcerers. They're both just behind the Wizard.

Again, almost as equal. If you took AWAY the PP limit, then they will be far mroe powerful then any wizard. That is what I was stating, not that psions are gods straight out. Though for the most part, any psion in the game, rapidly becomes the most powerful with utter ease, even though I do arcane/psion are the same rules. They fart and kill the person. They do another fart and they heal themselves. They race through the dungeon, kill everyone with ubber power, and still have dozens of power points left over at the end to planeshift to a nice relaxing plane for vaction.

El Dorado
2010-07-13, 01:02 PM
You could always give him Silent Spell for free but forbid him from taking (or otherwise benefiting from) Still Spell.

Beorn080
2010-07-13, 01:10 PM
Remember, if he gets it free, all sorcerers get it for free. No easy identification of Sorcs for the party, at least with Listen checks.

HunterOfJello
2010-07-13, 01:14 PM
You do know that since it's changed by metamagic, it's now a full round action to cast those spells, right? (Not that I ever follow that rule with metamagic and sorcerers, but RAW, they are required to use a full round action to use that feat)

Eschew Materials is a general feat, not a metamagic feat. It doesn't effect casting time.

~

Giving a Sorcerer Eschew Materials for free makes sense. Giving them Silent Spell Metamagic doesn't make sense.

Silent Spell Metamagic is a valid feat to grab for a character. The metamagic improves several spells signifigantly enough to increase their spell slot 1 higher. Some spells only have Verbal components anyway.




Verbal, Somatic, Material and Focus Components of spells are important to keep to limit spells to their proper uses. Spellcasters are already the most powerful classes in the game and Sorcerers are Tier 2. Some spells deserve to have higher material costs and shouldn't be cast for free. Having expensive material components limits players from casting the most powerful spells too often or in situations that don't deserve the cost.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 02:01 PM
You do know that since it's changed by metamagic, it's now a full round action to cast those spells, right? (Not that I ever follow that rule with metamagic and sorcerers, but RAW, they are required to use a full round action to use that feat)

Eschew Materials (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#eschewMaterials) is [General], not [Metamagic].

Frog Dragon
2010-07-13, 02:15 PM
For the psion discussion, see here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/18833134/Myth:_The_XPH_is_overpowered). Psionics is not overpowered in the least when compared to spellcasting. It's just overpowered when compared to fighter, but so is wizard.
But, yeah, introduce him to psionics. That should be about what he wants.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-13, 05:36 PM
Yep they are. That's why I said that the PP limit ALMOST makes them balanced to wizards, not more powerful.

That's not what you said at all.


Again, almost as equal. If you took AWAY the PP limit, then they will be far mroe powerful then any wizard. That is what I was stating, not that psions are gods straight out. Though for the most part, any psion in the game, rapidly becomes the most powerful with utter ease, even though I do arcane/psion are the same rules. They fart and kill the person. They do another fart and they heal themselves. They race through the dungeon, kill everyone with ubber power, and still have dozens of power points left over at the end to planeshift to a nice relaxing plane for vaction.

Again, what you originally said was that psionics is massively overpowered even WITH the PP limit (which is false).

As for running through a dungeon and still having enough power to go on vacation, a wizard can do it just as easily (or, more likely, even easier).

Dracons
2010-07-13, 05:49 PM
As for running through a dungeon and still having enough power to go on vacation, a wizard can do it just as easily (or, more likely, even easier).

Not so much. Only if their prepared. Once you used up your few attack spells and containment spells, your out of luck. Unless you have scrolls, which do use XP.

Psions can choose to blast, then heal, then kill some more. They can adapt their energy attacks to the creatures weakeness, where as if the wizard prepared a fireball compared to an iceball, well they are just out of luck if they're against some fire creatures in that regard. Psions can adapt to what they need to do much like sorcerers, except they also get far more ability choices and massive amount of PP compared to set level of set spells. Psions want to do the whole big deal of highest level powers? Sure. They can do all they want til they run out. Equal level wizard gets their 1 highest level spell, or maybe 2.

Again, just in my games, each psion character quickly proved to be the most powerful, and other players usually just gave up and moved on to playing psions themselves, seeing as it was the only way to be equal.

lsfreak
2010-07-13, 05:58 PM
Your wizards just didn't know how to choose spells, then. By 5th level or so, a FS wizard has roughly 17 non-0th-level spell slots available to him, more than enough to prepare for practically anything he could face. That's also enough that he should never really run out. Prepare at least two of each Reflex save-or-lose, Will save-or-lose, and Fort save-or-lose, plus a few no-save-just-sucks rays (ray of enfeeblement), a few good damaging spells, and a few good buffs (haste), and he's got something for any, ANY situation.

EDIT: This is not meant to be disparaging. In very low-op groups, psions can appear overpowered, but they definitely aren't.

KillianHawkeye
2010-07-13, 06:12 PM
I'm definitely not arguing that a Psion isn't strong. But just being versatile doesn't make it overpowered. (Just being strong doesn't make it overpowered, either.)

As I said before, if this happened in your game, then your game was likely low-powered.

Felyndiira
2010-07-13, 07:03 PM
Not so much. Only if their prepared. Once you used up your few attack spells and containment spells, you cast rope trick. Or magnificent mansion. Or greater teleport out with your friends and scry-and-die that darned enemy tomorrow. Unless you have scrolls, which do use XP.

Fixed for you XD. Note that once a psion uses up all of his PP, he is awol as well, and no psion type is as versatile as...well, conjuration.


Psions can choose to blast, then heal, then kill some more. They can adapt their energy attacks to the creatures weakeness, where as if the wizard prepared a fireball compared to an iceball, well they are just out of luck if they're against some fire creatures in that regard.
You mean the wizard didn't learn orb of force/melf's unicorn arrow and is traditionally preparing fireball, cone of cold, and the likes =p?

And a wizard is not out of luck if they face a fire creature. Grease the thing, cloudkill it, solid fog, aviscerate, and all of a sudden it's pretty horrible.


Psions can adapt to what they need to do much like sorcerers, except they also get far more ability choices and massive amount of PP compared to set level of set spells. Psions want to do the whole big deal of highest level powers? Sure. They can do all they want til they run out. Equal level wizard gets their 1 highest level spell, or maybe 2.
I actually would not play spell point variant of the wizard if I'm going for a blaster. They have the same system (with SP in place of PP), although the extra points spent on "augmenting" quickly becomes a chore for pure damage.

Psions do not have the sheer versatility of wizards. A wizard can bar evo, enchant, and something else and still have both of their primary schools (metacreate, psychometabolism), divination (clairsentience, telepathy), and two other schools for prosperity. And they get at least 4 of their highest level spells, assuming no int bonuses.


Again, just in my games, each psion character quickly proved to be the most powerful, and other players usually just gave up and moved on to playing psions themselves, seeing as it was the only way to be equal.

If I were to play a Psion and someone else on the forums play a wizard, that person would very likely prove to be much more powerful than me. It's just like how a wizard with all of his slots filled with heightened dancing lights will not outperform a fighter.

Malakar
2010-07-13, 07:09 PM
Not so much. Only if their prepared. Once you used up your few attack spells and containment spells, your out of luck. Unless you have scrolls, which do use XP.

Psions can choose to blast, then heal, then kill some more. They can adapt their energy attacks to the creatures weakeness, where as if the wizard prepared a fireball compared to an iceball, well they are just out of luck if they're against some fire creatures in that regard. Psions can adapt to what they need to do much like sorcerers, except they also get far more ability choices and massive amount of PP compared to set level of set spells. Psions want to do the whole big deal of highest level powers? Sure. They can do all they want til they run out. Equal level wizard gets their 1 highest level spell, or maybe 2.

Why would you have such a limited amount of containment and attack spells? Those are your bread and butter.

As for changing damage type, fire or ice, both monsters fall to the power of stinking cloud. Or slow. Or web. Or whatever.

But let's compare Psions to Sorcerers to Wizards in spells per day and known.

Level 8 Psion with a +2 Int item, +2 Int from levels, a +2 Int race, and starting 18 Int has Int 24. Assume same Int Wizard and Same Cha Sorcerer.

Psion has 58+28=86 power points and 17 powers known.
Sorcerer has 6/6/5/3 + 2/2/2/1 per day, and 5/3/2/1 spells known (11 total).
Wizard has 4/3/3/2 + 2/2/2/1 per day, and minimum 22 spells known.

Now, ignoring for the moment:
1) Spells are better than equivalent powers.
2) Wizard and Sorc have more support, thus even more powerful spells.
3) Wizard and Sorc have more support, and thus more options to increase spells per day or spells known (PrCs that grant spells known, FS, ect.)

Psion clearly has more options than a Sorcerer.
Wizard clearly has more spells known than Psion.
Spells per day convert to power points at (spell level X2) -1, so:

Wizard PP: 4+9+15+14 + 2+6+10+7 =67 power points.
Sorcerer PP: 6+18+25+21 + 2+6+10+7 = 95 power points.

So clearly the Psion has more versatility of spell choice than a Sorcerer, but less spells per day and staying power.

In fact, the staying power issue is compounded by the fact that Web is still awesome at a level 2 slot, but most Psionic powers have to be fully augmented to be that good.

If it weren't for the fact that Sorcerers get better PrCs and cool things like Wings of Flurry or Fleshshiver, that Psions never get, I would say Psions are better than Sorcerers. However, since they do get those things, they are pretty much about even.