Yet another martial arts thread.

[Dvil]

Hi guys. I used to do a martial art, and once I go off to university I'm thinking of maybe taking up another one. I was wondering if you could help me in that regard.

I realise that it's highly dependent upon what's available nearby, but I haven't yet gone up to check out any of that kind of thing, as I thought it might be best to get opinions from you guys first.

My personal style would probably be based more around technique rather than actual force, so if you could avoid suggesting anything that's too devoted to grapples etc, I'd be appreciative.

If you need any more details, that's fine.

[Brother Oni]

Aikido?

Very technique based and very different from striking arts, so it helps round out your repertoire.

If you want something a little more aggressive, then jujitsu - similar techniques to aikido, but with a greater focus on incapacitating your opponent rather than immobilising.

[Lord Loss]

Ninjutsu seems to fit the bill. It includes weapons training (including shurikens!), defensive rolls, pressure points. You learn lots of self defense and technique is EVERYTHINg in this martial art. Very little physical strength is required. However, a dojo that teaches ninjutsu is a rare thing. Still look out for it, it'sloads of fun. Plus, you are officially a Ninja when you do this.:smallcool:.

[Castaras]

Wado Ryu is good for that. 'tis what I do.

[Exeson]

Ninjutsu seems to fit the bill. It includes weapons training (including shurikens!), defensive rolls, pressure points. You learn lots of self defense and technique is EVERYTHINg in this martial art. Very little physical strength is required. However, a dojo that teaches ninjutsu is a rare thing. Still look out for it, it'sloads of fun. Plus, you are officially a Ninja when you do this.:smallcool:.

Ninjitsu technically encompass things such as navigation by the stars and the mixing of herbs as well, so not totally combat orientated. Another plus! :smallbiggrin:

But yes, I would support suggestions of Aikido.

[valadil]

My personal style would probably be based more around technique rather than actual force, so if you could avoid suggesting anything that's too devoted to grapples etc, I'd be appreciative.


In my experience, ground fighting is about technique rather than force. The reason being, applying an armbar is technique. You can practice it at 10% strength, but you're doing the same exact technique as if you put 100% strength into it. I've heard theories that this is why BJJ is so effective in MMA. Sparring with it is better practice because you can hold back without affecting your training. Compare this to a striking martial art where you do have to train how hard you hit.

[Altaria87]

Just further informaiton about Ninjitsu:
I do know a place that teaches Ninjitsu as well as a few other martial arts (Iaido (sp?) and Taekwondo), but it does it in a way that doens't match up with all the pop culture stuff about Ninjas. For one thing, I've never seen them use shurikens or the like, the only weapons they do use are sticks- the philosophy being they are trianing in self defence with stuff you'd actually have. And the entire focus of their self-defence syllabus is pressure points, pretty much nothing else.
Not sure if this is typical of Ninjitsu, it may just be because they teach it along with two other Arts.

[Erts]

Can you say Jujitsu?
Also, Aikido is very good.

BJJ is good because if someone has no ground experience, they are screwed against you.

EDIT: What martial art did you do before specifically?

[Liffguard]

My personal style would probably be based more around technique rather than actual force, so if you could avoid suggesting anything that's too devoted to grapples

:smallconfused:Grappling is all about technique. Sure, strength plays a part. All else being equal a stronger guy will beat a weaker guy, but that's true of all forms of fighting everywhere. In my experience, grappling is more conducive to overcoming a strength disadvantage with technique than stand-up striking. I trained with Andre Monteiro (http://www.andretmbjj.com/) recently. He's not a big dude at all, I'd estimate him at about 75kg give or take, but he's been dominating some much bigger, stronger guys in professional competition.

[Spiryt]

"Technique" is the way in which you apply force in different ways.

Some things depends on the certain amount of force more than others, but that's the thing to write books about.

In short, proper technique in everything is most important, but the stronger you are, the better.

That's the reason why there are weight classes in any serious competition martial sport.

You can do wonders with B jiu jitsu with minimal amount of force, but against opponent with similar mind, agility, and BJJ experience, but much bigger it's no longer that way.

So "technique rather than actual force" is... well, not possible?


. I trained with Andre Monteiro recently. He's not a big dude at all, I'd estimate him at about 75kg give or take, but he's been dominating some much bigger, stronger guys in professional competition.

He seem like some seriously good mofo though, at least judging by achievements.

[Erts]

:smallconfused:Grappling is all about technique. Sure, strength plays a part.

True, but maybe he is thinking grappling as in, you know, wrestling? That requires a ton of strength.

[Dvil]

Right, ok. The grapples-relies-on-strength thing was just an assumption, apparently a wrong one. Sorry for the confusion.

In answer to Erts' question, I used to do Shotokan Karate, which is almost entirely based on punches and kicks. Some of the higher belts were also taught weapons training, but I was still too young to do that when I had to quit, so I don't know if that was the club branching out to a different style or Shotokan including weapons training.

Aikido and Jujistu seem to be popular choices, and Ninjistu has the whole rule of cool thing going for it.

[Exeson]

Grappling does rely on strength, but it also relies on technique. I do judo and I find it is about 3/4 technique and 1/4 strength. But this is because I'm quite strong for my weight and so use techniques that compliment that.

For standing work speed is my main asset. Power is force combined with speed, so the faster you are effectively the stronger the throw.

[Coidzor]

strength and technique follow a sort of parabola, as one and one's opponents get better.

But, then, that's a given, once your technique is equal, it's all down to the bodies at motion.

[Irenaeus]

If you need any more details, that's fine.What are your goals when it comes to training, and where are you going to study?

[Erts]

I tend to find a bunch of different things are important in martial arts, and they vary in importance between the art.

All are pretty equal in a fight IMO (which could vary well be wrong.)

Strength
Speed
Flexibility
Skill (Technique)
Judgement (Intelligence, doing the right thing strategically)
Endurance (physical)
Grit (mental endurance)

3 are physical, 1 is mostly physical (endurance) and 3 are mental.

EDIT: And experience. Mental thing.

[Prime32]

Just further informaiton about Ninjitsu:
I do know a place that teaches Ninjitsu as well as a few other martial arts (Iaido (sp?) and Taekwondo), but it does it in a way that doens't match up with all the pop culture stuff about Ninjas. For one thing, I've never seen them use shurikens or the like, the only weapons they do use are sticks- the philosophy being they are trianing in self defence with stuff you'd actually have. And the entire focus of their self-defence syllabus is pressure points, pretty much nothing else.
Not sure if this is typical of Ninjitsu, it may just be because they teach it along with two other Arts.Most "ninjutsu" schools just use the name to attract students. It's widely thought that ninjas didn't actually exist, and that most schools were founded fairly recently.

[Marillion]

Most "ninjutsu" schools just use the name to attract students. It's widely thought that ninjas didn't actually exist, and that most schools were founded fairly recently.

That's just what they WANT you to think.

[Liffguard]

Also, I'd be extremely sceptical of any school that claims to base their instruction around "pressure points."

[drakir_nosslin]

For actual self defense I'd go with Krav Maga any day, though it's probably not as technique focused as you'd like.

Otherwise, Ju-jutsu (or jujitsu or however you spell it in your part of the world :smalltongue:) is nice, as is Aikido, though I wouldn't trust either of them in a tough situation. Running is also quite nice self defense training...:smallbiggrin:

[Brother Oni]

Also, I'd be extremely sceptical of any school that claims to base their instruction around "pressure points."

Is that because you're sceptical of the effectiveness of pressure points, application of pressure point attacks in an actual fight, or the school's teaching method?

[katans]

How to find a martial arts school / training group you'll be happy with:

1/ Check what's available. No point in dreaming about Pencak Silat if the nearest school is 200 miles away.

2/ Define your own expectations. Give a mark from 1 (unimportant) to 5 (very important) to the following aspects:
- Street self-defence
- Fitness and health
- Tradition and culture
- Philosophy and meditation
- Weapon training
- Grappling
- Striking
- Competition
- Self-control

3/ Given your wish profile, we'll help you select a few options among what's available.

4/ Give every option a try. It may just be the right martial art with the wrong teacher or group. Or maybe not 100% what you want but with such a nice atmosphere that you'll want to go there anyway.

BR
Katans

[katans]

Is that because you're sceptical of the effectiveness of pressure points, application of pressure point attacks in an actual fight, or the school's teaching method?

This. Plus they simply don't work on 5-10% of the people.

[Erts]

Running is also quite nice self defense training...:smallbiggrin:

Parkour....

Pressure points can be effective, but the change so much from person that it's not worth your time.

[Liffguard]

Is that because you're sceptical of the effectiveness of pressure points, application of pressure point attacks in an actual fight, or the school's teaching method?

The first two. I don't believe that "pressure points" as they're usually talked about in martial arts discussions even exist. Sure, some areas are more vulnerable than others. I'd rather take a punch to the ribs than a punch to the kidney, for example. But that's worlds away from the one-touch knockouts that most pressure point enthusiasts talk about.

But even if we assume that pressure points do exist for the sake of argument, I don't buy that they're a useful concept for fighting. Skilled fighters have a hard enough time just hitting someone in the head or the abdomen. Trying to hit a small, specific spot on an opponent's body during a messy, unpredictable fight is simply not reliable.

[drakir_nosslin]

Parkour....

Yea, I'm doing that... I can probably outrun/outjump/outclimb most martial artists by now :smallbiggrin: If they can't catch me they can't hit me! (unless they use shuriken, but that's cheating!)

[Xuc Xac]

Most "ninjutsu" schools just use the name to attract students. It's widely thought that ninjas didn't actually exist, and that most schools were founded fairly recently.

Are you kidding? Ninjutsu as a martial art is an ancient secret tradition. It dates back at least as early as the mid-1980s if not the early 1980s.

[Erts]

Yea, I'm doing that... I can probably outrun/outjump/outclimb most martial artists by now :smallbiggrin: If they can't catch me they can't hit me! (unless they use shuriken, but that's cheating!)

If I may ask, where are you learning parkour?

[Lord Loss]

Just further informaiton about Ninjitsu:
I do know a place that teaches Ninjitsu as well as a few other martial arts (Iaido (sp?) and Taekwondo), but it does it in a way that doens't match up with all the pop culture stuff about Ninjas. For one thing, I've never seen them use shurikens or the like, the only weapons they do use are sticks- the philosophy being they are trianing in self defence with stuff you'd actually have. And the entire focus of their self-defence syllabus is pressure points, pretty much nothing else.
Not sure if this is typical of Ninjitsu, it may just be because they teach it along with two other Arts.

Where I do it, it is a lot like this, but we also learn how to use knives, how to get out of ropes, how to disarm people, how to disarm people with a rope, shurikens, etc.

EDIT: Ninjutsu is an ancient martial art used by rebels and assasins. It was largely used to thwart the samurai and their warlord leaders. It originates from japan.

[drakir_nosslin]

If I may ask, where are you learning parkour?

Yes you may.



:smalltongue:



And I'm training outdoors, normally with friends, receiving and giving advice (I got a background in gymnastics, but they've been traceurs for a longer time), at whatever spots we find. Now in the summer, I'm working abroad, so now I'm on my own, though youtube is a great help. Lots of inspiration and tutorials :smallsmile:

[Brother Oni]

The first two. I don't believe that "pressure points" as they're usually talked about in martial arts discussions even exist. Sure, some areas are more vulnerable than others. I'd rather take a punch to the ribs than a punch to the kidney, for example. But that's worlds away from the one-touch knockouts that most pressure point enthusiasts talk about.

But even if we assume that pressure points do exist for the sake of argument, I don't buy that they're a useful concept for fighting. Skilled fighters have a hard enough time just hitting someone in the head or the abdomen. Trying to hit a small, specific spot on an opponent's body during a messy, unpredictable fight is simply not reliable.

I agree that most pressure point enthusiasts tend to over-exaggerate their effectiveness, but there are still some specific points that are more vulnerable than others, and I view these vulnerable areas as 'pressure points', which include things other than nerve clusters, like tendons, structural weaknesses, etc.

Take the most obvious one - the solar plexus. Taking a good hit there will generally wind you due to the nerve and vein combination just behind the stomach.

For a more traditional analysis, there's the kung fu 'centre line', which is an imaginary vertical line running down from the centre of your forehead to your groin. A lot of kung fu styles emphasise defending this line, simply because of the number of vulnerable spots along it - starting from the top, you have the nose, throat, centre of the sternum, solar plexus and groin.

A lot of these vulnerable spots are fairly self explanatory as to why they're bad if you get hit there (the sternum is a structural weakness and while it's not painful to the point of incapacitation, it still stings like a... very stingy thing if that gets hit properly), and a lot of kung fu initiation attacks (biu sau for example) aim to get the opponent into a fixed position so that you know exactly where to place your next attack to hit a vulnerable spot.

I agree in an actual fight with bottles, knives and other improvised weapons involved, you don't mess about with trying to hit that special point half an inch to the left of their right nipple that will stop their heart - you get out of there as quick as possible and if you're forced to fight, you put them down asap, using any means possible.
In a 'less' dangerous situation where you have the luxury of restraining the person rather than injure/kill them, then you can try some of these techniques.