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View Full Version : [3.5] Highest uses of Monk



dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 03:33 PM
Inspired by a quote (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8902992&postcount=61) from Doc Roc to Schneeky regarding this build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8899161&postcount=31), I ask you, playgrounders, "What are your highest uses of this much maligned class."

In other words, what builds benefit from a monk dip, that would not benefit more from another choice?

PId6
2010-07-13, 03:41 PM
Monk 2/Ardent 18 with Tashalatora comes into mind immediately. Same for Monk 2/PsyWar 18.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 03:42 PM
Dangit PId6, that was going to be mine. Sacred Fist then.

Da Beast
2010-07-13, 03:42 PM
1 level of monk on a druid might be ok. I'm too lazy too look up whether or not monk and sworsage wisdom to AC bonuses stack which would be neat but probably doesn't work.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 03:44 PM
1 level of monk on a druid might be ok. I'm too lazy too look up whether or not monk and sworsage wisdom to AC bonuses stack which would be neat but probably doesn't work.

RAW they don't, because the former requires no armor, while the latter requires light armor only. (Hopefully the ToB errata will clear up the latt- never mind.)

Amphetryon
2010-07-13, 03:52 PM
Monk 10/Sigh Rager 10//Druid 20?

Fax Celestis
2010-07-13, 03:52 PM
I like Monk 2 before heading into Incarnate. Gonna have a rockin' Wis score anyway, might as well make use of it. If you're good, you can even finagle Monk/Incarnate/Ur-Priest/Sacred Exorcist/Sapphire Hierarch.

Boci
2010-07-13, 03:55 PM
I like Monk 2 before heading into Incarnate. Gonna have a rockin' Wis score anyway, might as well make use of it. If you're good, you can even finagle Monk/Incarnate/Ur-Priest/Sacred Exorcist/Sapphire Hierarch.

What about swordsage? Or do they not exist for the purpose of this thread.

PId6
2010-07-13, 03:57 PM
Monk 1 or Monk 2 are decent dips for Shapeshifter Druids. The last two levels don't get that much, while Wis to AC, flurry, and bonus feats are nice when shapeshifting. Losing spell slots can be a pain though, so it's overall probably a nerf.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-13, 03:58 PM
Swordsage works just as well there, but then I'm tempted to go RKV rather than Sapphire Hierarch and just drop the Incarnate but incarnum is so blue and pretty so I'm temped to drop the swordsage and go Sapphire Hierarch rather than oh no I've gone cross-eyed. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AustinPowers)

Also, I enjoy Monk 2 before Wildshape Ranger/Nature's Warrior

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 03:58 PM
What about swordsage? Or do they not exist for the purpose of this thread.

They exist. If you are doing Monk just for the AC bonus, then Swordsage or Monk's Belt do it better (probably). The build has to justify taking Monk levels.

PId6
2010-07-13, 04:03 PM
In Gestalt, monks are very nice (as 1 or 2 level dip) for the save boost, bonus feats, and AC bonus. Wis-based casters might be better off with swordsage, but Int casters can use monk with Carmendine Monk for Int to AC while Cha casters can use Aesthetic Mage for Cha to AC (however, it's quite easy to houserule those feats to apply to swordsage too).

Keld Denar
2010-07-13, 04:04 PM
Don't forget the Sacreligeous Fist build....

Monk2/Duskblade3/UrPriest2/SacredFist10/OrdainedChampion3

Assuming you can ignore the slight disconnect between UrPriest (I steal magic from the gods) and Ordained Champion (I steal magic from every god BUT you, oh mighty Hextor).

And yes, I did just Arcane Channel a Harm spell into your face. Doesn't that just suck...

Fax Celestis
2010-07-13, 04:07 PM
And yes, I did just Arcane Channel a Harm spell into your face. Doesn't that just suck...

I prefer using Enlightened Fist's Hold Ray ability with Spellwarp Sniper's Spellwarp ability. I turn fireball into a ray, which I turn into a touch attack, which I poke you in the face with.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 04:12 PM
I prefer using Enlightened Fist's Hold Ray ability with Spellwarp Sniper's Spellwarp ability. I turn fireball into a ray, which I turn into a touch attack, which I poke you in the face with.

I'd karate chop with Slashing Dispel. :smallamused:

Cespenar
2010-07-13, 04:34 PM
I had a weird-ass build that went something like Monk 1/Sorcerer 4/Enlightened Fist 3/Abjurant Champion 5/Marshal 1/Tattooed Monk 5.

PId6
2010-07-13, 04:45 PM
Overwhelming Attack monk also does something unique, giving you Power Attack and Improved Bull Rush in 2 levels while ignoring the Str requirement. It's a nice way of getting Shock Trooper on pretty much anyone regardless of your Str score.

gorfnab
2010-07-13, 05:00 PM
Don't forget the Sacreligeous Fist build....

Monk2/Duskblade3/UrPriest2/SacredFist10/OrdainedChampion3

Assuming you can ignore the slight disconnect between UrPriest (I steal magic from the gods) and Ordained Champion (I steal magic from every god BUT you, oh mighty Hextor).

And yes, I did just Arcane Channel a Harm spell into your face. Doesn't that just suck...
For Sacrilegious Fist I usually recommend
Monk 2/ Duskblade 3/ Ur-Priest 2/ Sacred Fist 10/ Enlightened Fist 3
Although your build is also amuzing

On the flip side
Warforged Monk 2/ Druid 3/ Landforged Walker 5/ Sacred Fist 10
is quite entertaining

lsfreak
2010-07-13, 05:14 PM
I like a 2-level dip for ninja-like builds, thanks to Invisible Fist ACF in EoE. Once every 3 rounds, go invisible as an immediate action. Since it doesn't reference the spell, I believe you can attack while invisible without breaking it.

Gametime
2010-07-13, 05:27 PM
Do the rules allow 10 foot ladders to stack?

If not, optimizing jump is probably the way to go.

Dipping Monk can also get you Weapon Finesse, from one of the UA styles, along with a +2 bonus to Hide. Most people will probably prefer Swashbuckler, but Monk does grant you some other benefits that might make it worth it for some builds.

nedz
2010-07-13, 06:50 PM
Faux Ranger
Monk 2/Spirit Shamen 18
Human, pump Int a little for skills (12 say)
Start with Track and Able Learner (For Hide and Move S)
Plan is to flurry with QStaff which is buffed by the usual Druid spells.

It would be nice to exit into a PrC but there arn't any out there really.

Monk 2/Druid 18 with free Imp Grapple for Wildshape is probably more powerful, but I like the flavour of SS more.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 06:53 PM
Start with Track and Able Learner (For Hide and Move S)

Eh? Monks get those two as class skills, you don't need Able Learner.

Stompy
2010-07-13, 07:04 PM
Misread the rules for a vampire's slam attack so that you deal a negative level on each punch. In my defense, it was a vampire campaign setting, we both misread it, and my monk still died first.

Masaioh
2010-07-13, 07:08 PM
Druid with 2 levels of monk for bonus feats and Wisdom to AC.

Yorrin
2010-07-13, 07:11 PM
The most Monk I ever use is on my Changeling Unarmed TWF tripper build

Chaos Monk 6/Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/Tempest 5/Warshaper 2

With stuff like Superior Unarmed Strike and Improved Natural Weapon to get the damage die up to a decent level (3d6, as I recall) and getting 4+1d4 attacks on each charge (which thanks to a basic dungeoncrasher combo can rack up quite a bit of damage).

It's actually one of my better non-cheesy builds, in my opinion.

BRC
2010-07-13, 07:12 PM
I had lots of fun with a Monk 1/Rogue x (Okay, Rogue 1/Monk1/RogueX) with the feat from Comp Adventurer that lets you stack Monk and Rogue levels from Unarmed Strike damage. By the end of the game, I was TWFing a pair of 2d10 light weapons with plenty of sneak attack dice to spare. It was a great mental image.

Also, at one point when fighting super powered skeleton things I finished one off by kicking it's skull off (I got lots of overkill), hit the other one and finished it off as well.

SurlySeraph
2010-07-13, 07:50 PM
Monk 2/ Wizard/ Enlightened Fist with Carmendine Monk. Use Fell Drain Chill Touch and punch everyone in the face with negative levels. Using Fell Animate to punch people so hard they become zombies is fun but sub-optimal.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-13, 08:16 PM
I had lots of fun with a Monk 1/Rogue x (Okay, Rogue 1/Monk1/RogueX) with the feat from Comp Adventurer that lets you stack Monk and Rogue levels from Unarmed Strike damage. You're really better off with two Monk levels because of the Invisible Fist ACF, as lsfreak pointed out. Being invisible for a full round every 3 rounds is going to let you get in a lot of sneak attacks.

Any Monk levels will let you train with a Sparring Dummy of the Master (Arms and Equipment Guide) to have a choice between 5' and 10' steps. That's a big tactical advantage when you can full attack, step 10' back, and keep the enemy from making full counterattacks. Without the Monk levels you'll need a +20 Use Magic Device modifier

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 09:49 PM
Wow, I honestly didn't expect so many different responses -- so many nice things anyway. That Invisible Fist ACF looks cool, I hadn't ever heard of it. I had always been tempted to try an Enlightened Fist with the Carmendine or Ascetic feats, but it seemed like a lot of Monk. Nice to know there are builds that work. I knew about the Overwhelming Attack variant (I thing PId6 was the one that told me about it before, too.), but I never caught the low strength access to Shock Trooper.

Good job making Monk-ade.

Fishy
2010-07-13, 10:37 PM
I like to use Monk instead of Barbarian for my Horizon Tripper:

Unarmed Strike means you threaten the area around you while guisarme-ing, without the use of those ridiculous Armor Spikes. The bonus feats help out, particularly if you're using the Fighting Styles variants. If you get all the way to Planar Terrain Mastery: Shifting, you can grab the Sun School feat for free attacks while you Bamf all over the place, which is nice.

urbanpirate
2010-07-14, 12:06 AM
In Gestalt, monks are very nice (as 1 or 2 level dip) for the save boost, bonus feats, and AC bonus. Wis-based casters might be better off with swordsage, but Int casters can use monk with Carmendine Monk for Int to AC while Cha casters can use Aesthetic Mage for Cha to AC (however, it's quite easy to houserule those feats to apply to swordsage too).

if you used either the alternate int or cha to ac would that allow the monk ac and ninja ac bonus to stack?

Curmudgeon
2010-07-14, 12:14 AM
if you used either the alternate int or cha to ac would that allow the monk ac and ninja ac bonus to stack?
No, that's never going to happen because the source of this is the same: AC Bonus. From the FAQ:
Does the Armor Class bonus ability from the monk,swordsage, and ninja stack?
No, each of these abilities provides the same bonus. You are not able to benefit from multiple sources that have the same name more then once.

urbanpirate
2010-07-14, 01:50 AM
figured as much, just wanted to put another slice of cheese on my charachter sammich

Maeglin_Dubh
2010-07-14, 02:12 AM
I like to use Monk instead of Barbarian for my Horizon Tripper:

Unarmed Strike means you threaten the area around you while guisarme-ing, without the use of those ridiculous Armor Spikes. The bonus feats help out, particularly if you're using the Fighting Styles variants. If you get all the way to Planar Terrain Mastery: Shifting, you can grab the Sun School feat for free attacks while you Bamf all over the place, which is nice.

I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

What is the Sun School feat?

zugschef
2010-07-14, 06:31 AM
start as a human and have your buddy caster enlarge you and cast greater magic weapon on your kamas.

build: monk7/disciple of the eye4/initiate of the draconic mysteries9

feats
normal: (1)power attack, (human)alertness, (3)intuitive attack/weapon finesse, (6)roundabout kick, (9)superior unarmed strike, (12)improved natural attack, (15)snap kick, (18)two-weapon fighting
monk: (1)improved unarmed strike, (1)improved grapple/stunning fist, (2)combat reflexes, (6)improved trip

items: gloves of the balanced hand, monk's belt, 2*scorpion kama, 2*scabbard of keen edges

=> bab 14, flurry+snap kick+2wf 10/10/10/5/0+10+10/5, saves 17/17/17, spell resistance 24
unarmed=kama damage: 12d8 19-20/x3 bludgeoning/slashing

12d8 makes 54 damage on average. you have 8 attacks with a flurry+snap kick+2wf and threaten a crit 10% of the time. if you crit you deal 162 damage by rolling dice allone and get to make another attack with the same attack bonus.

the biggest problem is hitting things, but intutive attack helps to dump dex and focus on wis and str. you could also take weapon finesse for more dex synergy (combat reflexes), you'd probably lose some damage though.

you would be more powerful (for an hour per day) on level 20 if you took all ten levels of the initiate for the dragon shape ability, but you would lose greater flurry.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-14, 07:22 AM
16th level Monk abilities, 9th level arcane spells at caster level 20, +12 BAB:
Monk 1/ Wizard or Sorcerer 4/ Enlightened Fist 5/ Master of the East Wind 10
Use Carmendine Monk for Wizard or Ascetic Mage for Sorcerer. Haste up and cast a touch spell during a full attack flurry, buff with (Greater) Mage/Luminous Armor, Greater Magic Weapon, Greater Mighty Wallop, and eventually legit-cast Persistent Shield, Wraithstrike, Displacement, etc. With a Monk's Tattoo from Magic of Faerun you'll get 20th level unarmed damage, AC, and speed, or with a Monk's Belt you'll have 20th level unarmed damage and AC, and 16th level speed. You could forget both of those and take Superior Unarmed Strike for 20th level unarmed damage and 16th level AC and speed. It gets 18th level spellcasting at caster level 20 with Practiced Spellcaster. Also note that you can use Arcane Strike with your unarmed strikes.


Untouchable Stealth Monk:
Halfling, Cobra-Strike Monk 7/ Shadowdancer 1, then whatever else you want. Use the Halfling Monk 1 substitution level in Races of the Wild, and the Dark Moon Disciple substitution levels (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060327a) at Monk 3 and 7, along with the Wall Walker ACF from Dungeonscape and the Spell Reflection ACF in Complete Mage. Feats should be Darkstalker (LoM), Weapon Finesse, and Improved Natural Attack. Put max ranks in Hide and Move Silently, and you'll need a few ranks in Perform for Shadowdancer. You'll constantly have total concealment from Shadow Blend, along with Hide in Plain Sight. Spring Attack allows you to attack then move, so opponents would have to beat your hide check to pinpoint your location and would still suffer a 50% miss chance against you. Hire an NPC Cleric to cast Deeper Darkness, preferably Heightened, on a bauble you wear on a string around your neck. Hold it in your mouth blocking the effect, if confronted with a Daylight spell you can 'drop' it as a free action by spitting it out, thus overwhelming any light effect of equal or lower level and plunging the room into darkness. It's not particularly powerful, but it's extremely difficult to pose any threat to this character.

Psyx
2010-07-14, 07:43 AM
"Monk 1 or Monk 2 are decent dips for Shapeshifter Druids. The last two levels don't get that much, while Wis to AC, flurry, and bonus feats are nice when shapeshifting. Losing spell slots can be a pain though, so it's overall probably a nerf."

Eh? I didn't think you could flurry with natural attacks: Only unarmed attacks.

But yeah: If you are in a campaign that will never see shiftable armour, it's worth considering.


Erm...

Monk 3 for Bane of Clockwork if you're playing a sneak attack character in a campaign heavy on constructs.

I'm struggling to think of more...

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2010-07-14, 08:00 AM
"Monk 1 or Monk 2 are decent dips for Shapeshifter Druids. The last two levels don't get that much, while Wis to AC, flurry, and bonus feats are nice when shapeshifting. Losing spell slots can be a pain though, so it's overall probably a nerf."

Eh? I didn't think you could flurry with natural attacks: Only unarmed attacks.

Your primary attack routine has to be unarmed strikes and monk weapons to use flurry, but you can still use natural weapons to make secondary attacks. For example, a Druid 1/ Monk 1 in predator form with Str 18 would get two unarmed strikes at +2 each for 1d6+4, and a secondary bite at -3 for 1d6+2. Definitely get a level of druid first, then one or two levels of monk, and go back into druid afterward. You could take Multiattack so your secondary attacks take only a -2 to hit instead of -5, and Improved Multiattack negates the penalty altogether, though you'd still add only half your strength bonus to the secondary attacks.

Also remember that natural weapons don't get iterative attacks, but unarmed strikes do. At Monk 2/ Druid 8 in ferocious slayer form with Str 22 (+6, with a +7 BAB and a -1 to hit for size) and Multiattack with Flurry you'd have three primary unarmed strike attacks at +10/+10/+5 for 1d8+6, a secondary bite at +8 for 1d8+3, and two secondary claws at +8/+8 for 1d6+3.

Jarveiyan
2010-07-14, 06:29 PM
Monk 3 recently in Pathfinder(haven't finished playing the character). Although I originally intended to go all 20 levels, I have now decided to Prestige 3 levels into Shadowdancer. The other character was Mnk 2 / Sor 3 / EnlightenedFist 10 along with Ascetic Mage.

Riffington
2010-07-14, 06:33 PM
Monk is pretty helpful because of its class feature that allows you to buy partially-charged wands.

Fishy
2010-07-14, 07:21 PM
I am intrigued by your ideas and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

What is the Sun School feat?

Sun School is from Complete Warrior: It's a tactical feat that requires Flurry of Blows, and can only be taken by Monks. It's supposed to give more power to Flurry, Stun and Abundant Step, but what it actually does is give you a standard attack immediately after coming out of a dimension door. It's basically the poor man's Shadow Pounce.

Not fantastic, but now Horizon Walkers 'get back' the standard action they used to teleport, which you want to do as often as humanly possible, because it's nifty.

nedz
2010-07-14, 08:08 PM
Sun School is from Complete Warrior: It's a tactical feat that requires Flurry of Blows, and can only be taken by Monks. It's supposed to give more power to Flurry, Stun and Abundant Step, but what it actually does is give you a standard attack immediately after coming out of a dimension door. It's basically the poor man's Shadow Pounce.

Not fantastic, but now Horizon Walkers 'get back' the standard action they used to teleport, which you want to do as often as humanly possible, because it's nifty.

This is the Horizon Tripper build surely ?
Bamf to the enemies rear, sun-school to get an attack, Trip & Imp Trip for an attack.

WeeFreeMen
2010-07-14, 08:28 PM
In my current campaign, I'm running one of my favorite characters I've ever made thus far. Just so happens to be monk.

Setting: Diablo-esk/Horror - Low Magic

Monk 4/ Saint 2/ Shinto Monk 10 / Sigh Rager 4
(Obviously not in that exact order, however, for simplicity sake.)

Being Saint gives me some crazy abilities, the +Wis is nice for monk/rager things and +Cha is nice for the Shinto.

The Shinto class abilities are EXTREMELY nice for a low-magic campaign and its easy to get into. Since we're using PF, I get some fun combos too. Medusa Wrath with a Falling Star. Monk "Robe" , Monk Belt, Cobra Set.
Fun stuff.
Im no Pun-Pun, but Ill be damned if he isn't at least 2nd strongest in the party. Good damage, great saves, good control abilities.

Overall, I give him a solid 9/10

Prodan
2010-07-14, 10:41 PM
No mention of a certain beard based monk build yet?

For shame.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-15, 12:08 AM
Monk is pretty helpful because of its class feature that allows you to buy partially-charged wands.
Don't go there, please. That attracts some undesirable elements. :roach::roach::roach::roach::roach:

Gametime
2010-07-15, 12:18 AM
This is the Horizon Tripper build surely ?
Bamf to the enemies rear, sun-school to get an attack, Trip & Imp Trip for an attack.

Don't forget Snap Kick. Snap Kick makes everything better.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-15, 12:21 AM
Actually, Doc Roc was referring to my use of Monk in a build, and my response which was something along the lines of "I don't just use Monk2 for Evasion, I use EVERY SINGLE class feature it gives me", and then proceeded to demonstrate how I did so, and how I leveraged every aspect of Monk2 into my build.

So basically, the build did something the base monk class cannot do: use all it's class features.

Which is what probably prompted that comment.

dextercorvia
2010-07-15, 12:55 AM
Which is why I asked for builds, such as yours, that benefit from Monk in a way that could not be achieved in any other way. Your Suel build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8899161&postcount=31) is awesome. You've squeezed so many complementary class features out of that character, I just had to shake my head.

I should have mentioned this in the first post.... Indeed, I think I shall have done so.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-15, 01:11 AM
Which is why I asked for builds, such as yours, that benefit from Monk in a way that could not be achieved in any other way. Your Suel build (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8899161&postcount=31) is awesome. You've squeezed so many complementary class features out of that character, I just had to shake my head.

I should have mentioned this in the first post.... Indeed, I think I shall have done so.

It's okay, but can easily be improved upon.

For another build which wrings the best out of monk, I highly suggest taking a look at Solo's Fistbeard Beardfist (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7814.msg257943#msg257943), the dwarfiest dwarf who ever dwarfed.

zugschef
2010-07-15, 01:30 AM
isn't it generally accepted that it's impossible to advance a class feature beyond the point the class would normally allow (because it has only got that many levels)?

Runestar
2010-07-15, 01:33 AM
isn't it generally accepted that it's impossible to advance a class feature beyond the point the class would normally allow (because it has only got that many levels)?

Not necessarily. Some abilities simply state DC=10+class lv+stat mod, so if you somehow get to count as extra of that class lv, there would be some benefit.

I think the 2 more commonly accepted ways are legacy champion and bloodlines from UA (of which has been used to obtain 9th lv maneuvers by 10th lv). :smallsmile:

Beorn080
2010-07-15, 01:39 AM
I recall a build that started with monk and ended I think with either Ur-Priest or Beholder Mage. Probably both.

zugschef
2010-07-15, 01:44 AM
Not necessarily. Some abilities simply state DC=10+class lv+stat mod, so if you somehow get to count as extra of that class lv, there would be some benefit.

I think the 2 more commonly accepted ways are legacy champion and bloodlines from UA (of which has been used to obtain 9th lv maneuvers by 10th lv). :smallsmile:
yes and i'm pretty sure, that this doesn't work since you cannot improve a class which only has 5 levels beyond 5 levels. and a prc which has 10 levels cannot be advanced pre-epic.

Rixx
2010-07-15, 02:11 AM
Monk 20, ya killjoys.

Prodan
2010-07-15, 02:19 AM
yes and i'm pretty sure, that this doesn't work since you cannot improve a class which only has 5 levels beyond 5 levels. and a prc which has 10 levels cannot be advanced pre-epic.

Legacy Champion

Tshern
2010-07-15, 03:16 AM
Legacy Champion
And Uncanny Trickster.

zugschef
2010-07-15, 04:51 AM
you two do realize that you've just posted the topic of the mini-debate as an answer/argument to the mini-debate? nevermind. i already regret that i have brought it up.

***

hm... aren't there some thri-kreen 2wf+flurry builds with an assload of attacks around?

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-07-15, 07:56 PM
yes and i'm pretty sure, that this doesn't work since you cannot improve a class which only has 5 levels beyond 5 levels. and a prc which has 10 levels cannot be advanced pre-epic.

The wording of the Prestige Classes Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster explicitly state it advances class features of another class at given levels. Not spellcasting, all class features. It is this which allows you to advance the class features of another class beyond it's normal maximum.

You aren't taking more than 5/10 levels of the PrC in question, pre-epic. You are, instead, advancing the class abilities of that class to a point which would normally require more than 5/10 levels of that class.

It's a fine distinction.

zugschef
2010-07-15, 08:39 PM
The wording of the Prestige Classes Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster explicitly state it advances class features of another class at given levels. Not spellcasting, all class features. It is this which allows you to advance the class features of another class beyond it's normal maximum.

You aren't taking more than 5/10 levels of the PrC in question, pre-epic. You are, instead, advancing the class abilities of that class to a point which would normally require more than 5/10 levels of that class.

It's a fine distinction.
so i work for someone and get a salary which won't increase anymore, and then i leave. afterwards i take a new job and work for a guy who actually works for my former employer. my new boss pays me with the money my old boss gives him (for the same work) and still i get payed more than before. it's called 'the wondrous increase in currency'. gotta try that one out.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-15, 08:41 PM
so i work for someone and get a salary which won't increase anymore, and then i leave. afterwards i take a new job and work for a guy who actually works for my former employer. my new boss pays me with the money my old boss gives him (for the same work) and still i get payed more than before. it's called the wondrous increase in currency. gotta try that one out.

This is a little off-target.

The "+1 level of existing class features" ability explicitly indicates that class features that progress on a patterned level-by-level basis are continued. This means a rogue's sneak attack (every other), a fighter's feats (every other), an assassin's Death Attack DC (since it's based on your class level), or a spellwarp sniper's spellwarp ability (since it's capped at your class level).

zugschef
2010-07-15, 09:00 PM
This is a little off-target.

The "+1 level of existing class features" ability explicitly indicates that class features that progress on a patterned level-by-level basis are continued. This means a rogue's sneak attack (every other), a fighter's feats (every other), an assassin's Death Attack DC (since it's based on your class level), or a spellwarp sniper's spellwarp ability (since it's capped at your class level).
that's fine. a rogue is a class with 20 levels, as is the fighter, thus you can advance them (though bloodlines don't work in this case) without any trouble.

it's something else with the assassin, however. the death attack dc would cap at 10+10+mod pre-epic, because class features stop to advance since you simply cannot take any more levels in this class. since the class levels stop at 10 or five, respectively, you simply cannot advance beyond this point.

the wording itself is perfectly clear:
At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
you simply cannot gain another level in this class, and in effect this class feature cannot do anything for a class in which you have already taken all levels.

well, i know that i won't ever convince you guys. raw means "rules as wanted" after all.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-15, 09:29 PM
that's fine. a rogue is a class with 20 levels, as is the fighter, thus you can advance them (though bloodlines don't work in this case) without any trouble.

it's something else with the assassin, however. the death attack dc would cap at 10+10+mod pre-epic, because class features stop to advance since you simply cannot take any more levels in this class. since the class levels stop at 10 or five, respectively, you simply cannot advance beyond this point.

the wording itself is perfectly clear:
At each level after 1st, you gain class features (including spellcasting ability) and an increase in effective level as if you had also gained a level in a class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level.
you simply cannot gain another level in this class, and in effect this class feature cannot do anything for a class in which you have already taken all levels.


That "as if" means you can still stack it on top. It's a fake level. CustServ and the FAQ have both answered this.

Telonius
2010-07-15, 10:03 PM
Monk1/ScoutX. One level of Monk makes you eligible for the Sparring Dummy of the Master. 10-foot adjustment plus full attack equals happy Scout.

Curmudgeon
2010-07-15, 10:49 PM
Monk1/ScoutX. One level of Monk makes you eligible for the Sparring Dummy of the Master.
You can use a Sparring Dummy of the Master with 1 level of Monk, but you can't afford one until quite a bit later. If you've got a big party with available funds, and someone with enough Diplomacy to Haggle for a 10% price reduction, the earliest you could possibly afford the training is level 6. As a solo character it's level 11.

urbanpirate
2010-07-16, 12:17 AM
where does one find Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster?

PId6
2010-07-16, 12:24 AM
where does one find Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster?
Legacy Champion: Weapons of Legacy
Uncanny Trickster: Complete Scoundrel

Curmudgeon
2010-07-16, 12:34 AM
where does one find Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster?
Useful WotC links:

character (base) class index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/class)
prestige class index (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc)