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DrewVolker
2010-07-13, 09:23 PM
Hey, I resently stumbled apon the battle sorceror from unearthed arcana, and I must say, I am very tempted to give it a try.
For thouse who dont know what it does heres the jist of it.
It increases HD to d8, increases base attack bonus to that of a cleric, removes bluff from the class skill list, and adds intimidate.
It gives them proficience with any light or one handed martial weapon of your picking, and gives prof with light armor (Witch no longer interfiers with spellcasting). All of this, for the cost of subtracting one spell per fay for each spell level and subtracting one spell known for each spell level.
To be honest, I never played a sorceror in tabletop, so I dont know if thats a fair trade or not, but it kinda makes me wanna give the class a try.

My big question(s) would be, is that a good trade off? Also, is there a other class that pulls off warrior-caster better than that?

Thanks in advance (Sorry if I made any typos)

Kylarra
2010-07-13, 09:25 PM
It's not worth it. You're losing a lot of power, especially with loss of spells known.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-13, 09:25 PM
A battle sorcerer isn't a sorcerer, it's a fighter with a bag of magical tricks. You can make it work, but it's hard, and you generally need to get multipurpose spells.

Coidzor
2010-07-13, 09:30 PM
You're better off multiclassing and then taking the Abjurant champion PrC at first opportunity.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 09:34 PM
Just be a Wilder I say. You get all the fun of casting in armor, the same BAB and have actual class features. Oh, and shields too.

You also get both Bluff and Intimidate, instead of one or the other. (not to mention Tumble and Autohypnosis.)

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 09:36 PM
If you want your sorcerer to be a bit hardier, I'd recommend Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage instead.

You get proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with any martial weapon, and 2 extra HP per level. The only thing you give up is one spell known of your highest level. It's still a bit of a cost, but it's worth it for the type of character that would be considering Battle Sorcerer.

BTW, about the extra 2 HP, it may not seem like much, but it is. Average roll for 1d4 is 2.5, and average roll for 1d8 is 4.5. Notice how the d4 result is 2 lower than the d8 result? The only thing you miss is light armor proficiency, which is done better by spells anyway. It's a much, much better idea.

Thurbane
2010-07-13, 09:39 PM
One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 09:44 PM
One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

Suel Arcanamach gives lower level casting power to classes that don't have it. Battle Sorcerer takes casting power away from a class that does have it.

Suel Arcanamach gives you something, Battle Sorcerer takes it away. People tend to focus on the sacrifices rather than the gains, especially when the latter happens to be a lot less valuable.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 09:46 PM
One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

If you really do want to be a gish, you can get all the good points of the Battle Sorcerer (BAB, proficiencies, armor etc.) with Abjurant Champion or Sorcadin, without losing 10 spells known.

If you don't want to be a gish, then you wouldn't benefit from Battle Sorcerer anyway.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-13, 09:46 PM
One thing confuses me a little - people seem to like the Suel Arcanamach a lot, yet loathe the Battle Sorcerer. On 10 level comparison, the classes seem to be similar in terms of BAB and casting power...not to mention that BS can (eventually) get 9th level casting, from a wider pool of spells.

I'm obviously missing some key point here?

Arcanamach is only ten levels long, so you can do other things with your gishly career.

To be perfectly honest, if you want to be a gish, just play a duskblade: it is so much simpler than Pal 2/Sorc 3/PrC 4/Other PrC 1/Moar PrC 2/Moarer PrC 4/EVEN MOAR PrC 2.

mrcarter11
2010-07-13, 09:49 PM
I second fax.. Why do all builds have to look so complicated ..

DrewVolker
2010-07-13, 09:55 PM
Thanks for all the good advice guys ;D
You really helped me make a disesion,
I am going to go with normal scorc, nothing special,
I might take the dragon desiple PRC though,
Thanks again everyone.

Optimystik
2010-07-13, 09:55 PM
Or a Psywar - who instead of saying for its first 7 levels "Hey guys, you can wear armor and carry a shield now!" says instead "So, who wants free feats?"

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 09:56 PM
I second fax.. Why do all builds have to look so complicated ..

Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 4-5/Swiftblade 9-10.

BAB +17, casting of a level 16-17 Sorcerer. The last level is interchangeable depending on if you want the Swiftblade capstone or the extra level of spellcasting. It might not get 9th level spells, but the standard Sorcadin only gets one of those anyway (probably Shapechange in most cases). With the Swiftblade capstone, you pretty much have Time Stop with lower slots.

EDIT:
Thanks for all the good advice guys ;D
You really helped me make a disesion,
I am going to go with normal scorc, nothing special,
I might take the dragon desiple PRC though,
Thanks again everyone.

Don't do it! It's even more of a trap than the Battle Sorcerer!

Zovc
2010-07-13, 09:57 PM
The biggest problem is that you can get nearly as much as you lose by using Prestige Classes and multiclassing.

The Battle Sorcerer also suffers when multiclassing or prestige classing, because they lose EVERYTHING* they gained and still have to put up with all they lost.

*When taking levels in another class, the HD you would have got from a level in sorcerer doesn't matter. Nor does the BAB. You also don't get all that much for having gained proficiency with Light Armor or one martial weapon.

The biggest advantage Battle Sorcerer gets is being able to cast in light armor, and that's not so special. A dip in Spellsword allows you to wear Padded Armor no questions asked, and you can reduce Arcane Spell Failure on armors by using special materials/enhancements.

You can gain BAB with prestige classes (and if you don't mind losing a little bit of spellcasting oomph, multiclassing), all the while losing essentially nothing from your sorcerer levels.

Prestige Classes to look at: Abjurant Champion, Sacred Exorcist (Essentially gives you 10 levels of Battle Sorcerer+!), and the first level of Spellsword. If you can manage to take 16 levels of prestige classes before level 20, you're probably doing something very right.

DrewVolker
2010-07-13, 10:06 PM
What is a good combonation for a gestalt scorc?
Gestalt = Leveling basicly two classes at each level.

Loren
2010-07-13, 10:13 PM
If you're interested in the battle sorceror you might want to check out the war mage from complete arcana. Many people poopoo this class, but if you want a character that blasts and wears armour this may be an option.

here's a quick comparision
-WM has same number od spells/day as a normal sorce (except at level 20 according to the SRD), so more than a BS
-full list caster, the WM knows all the spells on its list. Here in lies its biggest issue. It's spells basically all deal direct damage, which excludes the WM from batman style play. However, it does give far more spells known that a reg sorce, let alone a BS. The WM also gains access to some spells of the player's choice, but not many.
-d6 hp, so less than BS
-WM has basically the same skill plus History
-same saves
-WM's BAB only advances at the same rate as a normal sorce
-WM adds into bonus to damage. this can really add up when you're adding +3 or even +4 to your Acid Splashes at first level. (since few of the WM's spells allow saves you don't need to maximize your Cha, although a good dex also helps land those ranged touches)
-WM has a little MAD going on Cha grants spells, int improves damage, and dex helps land hits
-WM does, however, gain some metamagic class features.

Wm certainly isn't the most optimal choice, but it can deliver a similar character to a BS, depending on the direct you want to take it.

edit,
for gestalt mix MW with a sorce (regular or battle) for an ungodly number of spells/day. Probably not optimal, but but I'd love to see a D's recation when you tell him you can cast 10 1st level spell a day at level 1.

edit 2
when it comes to gestalt you need to consider what you want to get out of it. Do you want a tougher character, a more magical, more of the feel you already have? gestalt allows you to either emphasis the focus of your character, or make a character with a wider range of talents.

edit 3
a WM/scout should give you the casting of a sorce, armour, and damage bonuses, and a pretty good bab, and a tonne of class features. Tag on a reserve spell feat and you can blast away at you enemys all day. Again, not optimal, but it looks like it'd be fun to play.

faceroll
2010-07-13, 10:15 PM
Go dragonwrought kobold, take 20 levels of battle sorcerer, then apply the spellhoarding dragon psychosis template. You now cast as a wizard.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 10:26 PM
Go dragonwrought kobold, take 20 levels of battle sorcerer, then apply the spellhoarding dragon psychosis template. You now cast as a wizard.

If you're going to pull out Spellhoarding, you may as well go all the way. Venerable Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You gain all of the aging bonuses with none of the penalties, and you get the advantages of both Sorcerer ACFs, but instead you cast as a Wizard 3 levels higher than you.

faceroll
2010-07-13, 10:29 PM
If you're going to pull out Spellhoarding, you may as well go all the way. Venerable Dragonwrought Spellhoarding Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer with Loredrake and Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. You gain all of the aging bonuses with none of the penalties, and you get the advantages of both Sorcerer ACFs, but instead you cast as a Wizard 3 levels higher than you.

I could post an entire build here for a cheese-wizard, but I think my post was sufficiently demonstrative of one way to make battle sorcerer useful.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 10:31 PM
I could post an entire build here for a cheese-wizard, but I think my post was sufficiently demonstrative of one way to make battle sorcerer useful.

So the way to make a useful Battle Sorcerer is "be a wizard instead."? Spellhoarding is already sufficiently cheesy by itself.

EdroGrimshell
2010-07-13, 10:32 PM
For armor i just get +1 twilight githcraft studded leather or +1 twilight mithral chain shirt

Zovc
2010-07-13, 10:32 PM
edit,
for gestalt mix MW with a sorce (regular or battle) for an ungodly number of spells/day. Probably not optimal, but but I'd love to see a D's recation when you tell him you can cast 10 1st level spell a day at level 1.

I'm sure a "D" would be shocked to see a GESTALT CASTER casting a lot of spells at any level.

I don't think you ever specified what a "WM" is. I'm assuming it's a Warmage.

faceroll
2010-07-13, 10:35 PM
So the way to make a useful Battle Sorcerer is "be a wizard instead."? Spellhoarding is already sufficiently cheesy by itself.

Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

CharOp is mot identifying the powerful mechanics, then finding ways to take a build and have it access the powerful mechanics.

Zovc
2010-07-13, 10:36 PM
Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

What did you just do?

Crow
2010-07-13, 10:37 PM
I have a level 21 Battle Sorcerer which was very fun to play and powerful enough for most games. Played her from level 1 to present. I will post the stat block a little later.

Don't listen to all the naysayers. Most of what they say is based on theoretical forum discussion, and has little bearing on actual games. Having played 21 levels of it in actual games, it's a fun class.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 10:40 PM
Yes. Just like the way you make a fighter useful is make it a wizard and call it a warblade.

CharOp is mot identifying the powerful mechanics, then finding ways to take a build and have it access the powerful mechanics.

I disagree. I think CharOp is about taking a character concept, and optimizing it. You can have an optimized Monk that isn't just using an Unarmed Swordsage and calling it a day. Optimal? No. Optimized? Yes. There's a reason no one runs around playing Pun-Pun.

junglesteve
2010-07-13, 10:40 PM
If you want your sorcerer to be a bit hardier, I'd recommend Stalwart Sorcerer from Complete Mage instead.

You get proficiency (and Weapon Focus) with any martial weapon, and 2 extra HP per level. The only thing you give up is one spell known of your highest level. It's still a bit of a cost, but it's worth it for the type of character that would be considering Battle Sorcerer.

BTW, about the extra 2 HP, it may not seem like much, but it is. Average roll for 1d4 is 2.5, and average roll for 1d8 is 4.5. Notice how the d4 result is 2 lower than the d8 result? The only thing you miss is light armor proficiency, which is done better by spells anyway. It's a much, much better idea.

Or be a bad ass and combine both templates! Pretty sure you can.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 10:44 PM
Or be a bad ass and combine both templates! Pretty sure you can.

You can, but it's probably not the greatest idea.

faceroll
2010-07-13, 10:48 PM
I disagree. I think CharOp is about taking a character concept, and optimizing it. You can have an optimized Monk that isn't just using an Unarmed Swordsage and calling it a day. Optimal? No. Optimized? Yes. There's a reason no one runs around playing Pun-Pun.

Yes, but an optimized monk is taking advantage of a suite of mechanics that anyone making many iteratives will likely take advantage of.

Much like how a battle sorcerer's spell selection is going to be virtually the same as a wizard's spell selection.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-13, 10:58 PM
Yes, but an optimized monk is taking advantage of a suite of mechanics that anyone making many iteratives will likely take advantage of.

Much like how a battle sorcerer's spell selection is going to be virtually the same as a wizard's spell selection.

Not really. Wizards can afford to pick situational spells. Sorcerers, especially Battle Sorcerers, cannot. The stuff that a Wizard can consider just another item in his bag of tricks is the entire core of the Battle Sorcerer. Besides, there are some spells that are really only good for gishes. When's the last time you saw a non-gish take something like Wraithstrike?

faceroll
2010-07-13, 11:03 PM
Not really. Wizards can afford to pick situational spells. Sorcerers, especially Battle Sorcerers, cannot. The stuff that a Wizard can consider just another item in his bag of tricks is the entire core of the Battle Sorcerer.

Uhhh, maybe. Wizards learn like 4 spells/level, anything after that requires buying access to spells. Those 4 spells are almost always going to be the first 4 spells a sorcerer learns- web, glitterdust, evard's, orb of something, gate, teleport, etc.


Besides, there are some spells that are really only good for gishes. When's the last time you saw a non-gish take something like Wraithstrike?

Shared it with a polymorphed familiar.

Kylarra
2010-07-13, 11:05 PM
150gp*spell level is a pittance though.

faceroll
2010-07-13, 11:12 PM
150gp*spell level is a pittance though.

Maybe I'm not being clear.
The top 5 wizard spells for any level will almost always be the same for a sorcerer.

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 11:23 PM
Maybe I'm not being clear.
The top 5 wizard spells for any level will almost always be the same for a sorcerer.

6th level spells and above, a Battle Sorcerer will never know more than 2.

Malakar
2010-07-13, 11:25 PM
Maybe I'm not being clear.
The top 5 wizard spells for any level will almost always be the same for a sorcerer.

But a Sorcerer doesn't get 5 spells of a level when it's important. A level 6 Sorcerer gets one level 3 spell. So he can have either Stinking Cloud, or Slow, or Haste, or whatever.

A level 6 Wizard has those three and one other without paying a cent.

It's even worse for a battle sorcerer, because a level 6 Battle Sorcerer gets no 3rd level spells known at all. So he actually just gets 3 more Glitterdusts a day, either stilled or heightened.

Kylarra
2010-07-13, 11:26 PM
Maybe I'm not being clear.
The top 5 wizard spells for any level will almost always be the same for a sorcerer.If there's 5 good spells of any level, it's really too bad that a sorcerer only gets 5 spells of first and second level isn't it? And ye ol' battle sorcerer will only get 4 of those, 3 of 3rd-5th and 2 of the rest. Not to mention delaying the acquisition of the second spell of any given level past 1st by 3 more levels...

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 11:27 PM
But a Sorcerer doesn't get 5 spells of a level when it's important. A level 6 Sorcerer gets one level 3 spell. So he can have either Stinking Cloud, or Slow, or Haste, or whatever.

A level 6 Wizard has those three and one other without paying a cent.

It's even worse for a battle sorcerer, because a level 6 Battle Sorcerer gets no 3rd level spells known at all. So he actually just gets 3 more Glitterdusts a day, either stilled or heightened.

A Battle Sorcerer gets a minimum of one spell known for each level he can cast. He just doesn't get the bump from 1 to 2 as quickly.


A battle sorcerer has fewer daily spell slots than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell per day from each spell level on Table: The Sorcerer (to a minimum of zero spells per day). For example, a 1st-level battle sorcerer may cast four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells per day (plus bonus spells, if any).

A battle sorcerer knows fewer spells per spell level than a standard sorcerer. Subtract one spell known from each spell level on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known (to a minimum of one spell per spell level). For example, a 4th-level battle sorcerer knows five 0-level spells, two 1st-level spells, and one 2nd-level spell. When she reaches 5th level, the battle sorcerer learns one additional 1st-level spell, but doesn't learn an additional 2nd-level spell (since two minus one is one).

Malakar
2010-07-13, 11:30 PM
A Battle Sorcerer gets a minimum of one spell known for each level he can cast. He just doesn't get the bump from 1 to 2 as quickly.

Fair enough, I was just going by what people had said. Personally, the three castings of one spell per day of highest level pisses me off about the straight sorc, to have that for two highest level spells at the same time would be atrociously bad.

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 11:36 PM
Fair enough, I was just going by what people had said. Personally, the three castings of one spell per day of highest level pisses me off about the straight sorc, to have that for two highest level spells at the same time would be atrociously bad.

But your strength lies in your ability to cast that one spell spontaneously.:smallbiggrin:

Zovc
2010-07-13, 11:51 PM
Or be a bad ass and combine both templates! Pretty sure you can.

This way, you can be proficient with two martial weapons and dual wield both of them! You'll be the most unstoppable, spell-and-feat-sacrificing gish ever known.

dextercorvia
2010-07-13, 11:53 PM
This way, you can be proficient with two martial weapons and dual wield both of them! You'll be the most unstoppable, spell-and-feat-sacrificing gish ever known.

I'm fairly sure we could stack enough variants/ACFs to make a fighter without bonus feats.

Not really, but it would be anti-awesome. Also, Zovc, your sarcasm was not lost on me.

Kylarra
2010-07-13, 11:54 PM
This way, you can be proficient with two martial weapons and dual wield both of them! You'll be the most unstoppable, spell-and-feat-sacrificing gish ever known.With your amazing one spell known of highest level. Make it count!

Crow
2010-07-14, 12:31 AM
Ok, so here is my Battle Sorcerer; Some of the spell choices and feats were dictated by the campaign, so I'll be the first to admit this isn't a greatly optimized build. She was built SRD-only as well...No idea how weapon focus got in there either, lol! Some epic spell usage in there as well for the stats (just enough to get rid of aging penalties...she's 88).

Elsa Sword-Moon, Female Human BatSor21: CR 21; Medium Humanoid ; HD 21d8+21(Sorcerer, Battle) ; hp 124; Init +4; Spd 30; AC:24 (Flatfooted:24 Touch:15); Atk +26/21/16 base melee, +17/12/7 base ranged; +32/27/22 (1d8+14, +5 Longsword); +32/27/22 (1d8+18, +5 Longsword); +26/21/16 (1d4+9, Dagger); AL N; SV Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +15; STR 29, DEX 10, CON 12, INT 15, WIS 14, CHA 35.
Skills: Concentration +26,Knowledge (Arcana) +27, Knowledge (History) +8, Knowledge (The Planes) +4, Perform (Oratory) +18, Spellcraft +29.

Feats: Armor Proficiency: light, Epic Spellcasting (Arcana), Eschew Materials, Extend Spell, Heighten Spell, Improved Counterspell, Improved Initiative, Leadership, Martial Weapon Proficiency: Longsword, Power Attack, Simple Weapon Proficiency, Weapon Focus: Longsword.

Spells Known (BatSor 5/8/8/8/8/7/7/7/7/6): 0 -- Acid Splash, Daze, Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand, Read Magic, Resistance, Touch of Fatigue; 1st -- Feather Fall, Grease, Shield, True Strike; 2nd -- Darkvision, False Life, Glitterdust, Knock; 3rd -- Haste, Sleet Storm, Slow; 4th -- Dimension Door, Enervation, Invisibility, Greater; 5th -- Hold Monster, Telekinesis, Wall of Force; 6th -- Dispel Magic, Greater, Heroism, Greater; 7th -- Scrying, Greater, Teleport, Greater; 8th -- Mind Blank, Moment of Prescience; 9th -- Mordenkainen`s Disjunction, Time Stop.

Possessions:
Weapons: Dagger (2 gp); +5 Longsword (50,315 gp).
Armor: +5 Mithral Chain shirt (26,250 gp).
Goods: Saddle, riding (10 gp); Explorer`s outfit (10 gp); Bedroll (1 sp); Coin: sp (75) (75 sp); Blanket, winter (5 sp); Case, map or scroll (1 gp); Flint and steel (1 gp); Pouch, belt (1 gp); Soap (per lb.) (5 sp); Waterskin (full) (1 gp); Whetstone (2 cp); Coin: cp (101) (101 cp); Coin: gp (210) (210 gp); Coin: pp (30807) (30,807 pp); Warhorse, light (150 gp); Bit and bridle (2 gp); Saddlebags (4 gp).
Magic: Wondrous: Cloak of Charisma +6 (36,000 gp); Scroll: Mount (1), Mirror Image (3) (175 gp); Scroll: Protection from Chaos (1), Hold Portal (1), Nystul`s Magic Aura (1) (75 gp); Wondrous: Belt of Giant Strength +6 (36,000 gp); Ring: Protection +5 (50,000 gp); Wondrous: Tome of Leadership and Influence +5 (137,500 gp); Ring: Sustenance (2,500 gp); Potion: Cure Serious Wounds (5) (750 gp); Wondrous: Manual of Gainful Exercise +5 (137,500 gp); Wondrous: Ioun Stone, Pale Green [Prism] (30,000 gp); Wondrous: Cubic Gate (164,000 gp); Scroll: Haste (5) (375 gp); Wondrous: Heward`s Handy Haversack (2,000 gp).

faceroll
2010-07-14, 06:08 PM
6th level spells and above, a Battle Sorcerer will never know more than 2.

But those two the battle sorcerer picks will most likely be of a subset of 5 spells that will be the first spells to show up on the character sheet of any character capable of casting those spells.

dextercorvia
2010-07-14, 06:17 PM
But those two the battle sorcerer picks will most likely be of a subset of 5 spells that will be the first spells to show up on the character sheet of any character capable of casting those spells.

Which means that the other casters have more options of equal caliber. Also note that a Battle Sorcerer spends 3 character levels only knowing one spell of that level. This means that at level 6,8,10,12,14,16,18 --where a BS gains a new level of spells -- they only know one spell of their highest TWO spell levels. Go spontaneity!

faceroll
2010-07-14, 06:23 PM
Which means that the other casters have more options of equal caliber. Also note that a Battle Sorcerer spends 3 character levels only knowing one spell of that level. This means that at level 6,8,10,12,14,16,18 --where a BS gains a new level of spells -- they only know one spell of their highest TWO spell levels. Go spontaneity!

ಠ_ಠ

While certainly true, I'm uncertain of its relevance to the discussion I was having with Private_Prinny.

dextercorvia
2010-07-14, 06:30 PM
ಠ_ಠ

While certainly true, I'm uncertain of its relevance to the discussion I was having with Private_Prinny.
I didn't realize it was a two party communication. My faux pas.

Take level 6 for instance. With your 1 2nd and 1 3rd level spell, can you really pick one that is situational? A wizard, on the other hand, at level 6 knows 4 3rd level spells and 4 2nd level spells without spending a sp. He definitely can afford to pick a situational spell at either of those levels, and still have plenty of powerhouse spells.

PId6
2010-07-14, 06:33 PM
What is a good combonation for a gestalt scorc?
Gestalt = Leveling basicly two classes at each level.
Load up as many Cha-synergy classes as possible. Paladin of Tyranny 2, Battle Dancer 1, Monk 1 (with Aesthetic Mage), Marshal 1, Hexblade 2, Blackguard 2, Wilder 2, and maybe Iaijutsu Master 2, all adds up to 2x Cha to saves (x3 vs arcane spells), 2x Cha to AC (x3 for touch), and 2x Cha to initiative (or Cha to initiative and Cha to checks vs SR). There are a bunch of other such classes too.

Coidzor
2010-07-14, 07:21 PM
Knowstones are no longer just nice to have, they're absolutely essential to not be a complete gimp.

Jergmo
2010-07-14, 07:32 PM
Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 4-5/Swiftblade 9-10.

BAB +17, casting of a level 16-17 Sorcerer. The last level is interchangeable depending on if you want the Swiftblade capstone or the extra level of spellcasting. It might not get 9th level spells, but the standard Sorcadin only gets one of those anyway (probably Shapechange in most cases). With the Swiftblade capstone, you pretty much have Time Stop with lower slots

So how do you get around the issue with this build that Abjurant Champion requires BAB +5?

Kylarra
2010-07-14, 07:34 PM
So how do you get around the issue with this build that Abjurant Champion requires BAB +5?If you're an elf or something else with racial proficiencies, you can get into swiftblade first.

Private-Prinny
2010-07-14, 07:43 PM
If you're an elf or something else with racial proficiencies, you can get into swiftblade first.

I personally just use Stalwart Sorcerer. It's slightly less restrictive.

Kantolin
2010-07-14, 11:34 PM
If you're permitted to do so and set on Battle Sorceror, consider taking the Stalwart Sorceror as well. Due to the way both are worded, you lose very little from taking Stalwart Sorceror once you've already taken Battle Sorceror, and it's not particularly unfair to have done so due to the comments other people above have stated.