[3.5 E6] Help on Gish Builds

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I'm asking for help here, partially as a DM, and partially to help my players.

I'm decent at Martial builds, but I'm not a big fan of casters, and despite how much I know about the game, I'm still not that great at optimization.

So, what are some good, SRD-based (if possible) E6 gishes? Using magic or psionics, makes no difference to me.

Going outside the SRD is fine, but if possible, keep it to the Complete books, or the region books (Frostfell, Sandstorm, Stormwrack).

I'm interested in builds that use almost anything, but those are the primary references for how we play.

[Keld Denar]

Um, PHB has Duskblade, a gish in a can. 6 levels gets you 2nd level spells from a very select list.

Otherwise, most gish builds don't get off the ground until 7-8, and don't really come into full asskicking power until 12 or so.

Just sayin.

Alternatively, PsyWar6 would be a great gishy build. If you can get some way to increase your ML for a little (Overchannel + Talented works) you can hit ML7 Expansion for HUGE size.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

So, Gishing in E6, with the exception of the Duskblade, is generally considered to be pointless?

[Keld Denar]

I mean, technically you could do it with a straight wizard6 at that point, simply because no matter what gish build you use (other than Duskblade), you'll never get the iterative attack at BAB6. If you were just a wizard6, or a Fighter1/Wizard5, you could be pretty competant in E6 simply by prioritzing Str over Int, casting Enlarge Person, and PAing for 3 with Wraithstrike.

Heck, a Dread Necro6 ends up with 4/6 BAB, ok HP, 1 martial weapon, and the ability to heal himself with Charnal Touch + Tombtainted Soul (Libris Mortis).

I guess thats kinda the glory of E6.

[gorfnab]

Well, if you have access to Dragon Magazine you can make a decent gish with the Mystic Ranger variant(Dragon Magazine #336) and the feat Sword of the Arcane Order (Champions of Valor). This combo will net you 3rd level ranger and wizard spells, +6 BAB, and d8 HD. Combine that with the Wild Cohort (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031118a) feat, Wildshape Ranger ACF (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/resources/systems/pennpaper/dnd35/soveliorsage/unearthedCoreClass.html#simple-ranger) (Unearthed Arcana), Arcane Hunter ACF (Complete Champion), and possibly the Trapfinding ACF (Dungeonscape) and you'll basically be able to cover every role in the party.

[Endarire]

E6 Gish: Cleric6 or Druid6.

[Keld Denar]

Oh, actually, Bard6 would be a pretty decent gish. Optimize your Inspire Courage and you'll have a much higher to-hit than any other party member alone, except that your buff boosts them too! Get a nice 2hander and Power Attack for your whole +4 BAB!

Alternatively, if you have feats to burn, pick up Dragonfire Inspiration and hang out in the back with a whip while singing Devo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbt30UnzRWw) songs.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I see very little posted on building bards...

What sourcebooks are required to make Bards work well?

[Morph Bark]

E6 Gish: Cleric6 or Druid6.

Gish = arcane fighter though.

If it is moreso the concept of "melee fighter that can cast spells", sure. If you want something that feels a little gishy, but isn't at all, ToB works. If you want something that is gishy, but not necessarily arcane (since psionics can do some of the same stuff), Duskblade, Psychic Warrior and perhaps Hexblade can work.

[Keld Denar]

What sourcebooks are required to make Bards work well?

Sadly, lots. Bards are the crappiest in core, but outside of core get the most love of any other class in the PHB.

Google: Optimized Inspire Courage for all the details. There are a few good guides on this practice. You don't have to take it to that extreme, but having a +4 IC at level 6 is VERY doable and VERY helpful to yourself and your party.

Hope that helps.

[HunterOfJello]

The difficult obstacle I can see about becoming a Gish in E6 is that the best melee general and tactical feats require 6 BAB. That requires you to take 6 levels in a full BAB class.

The only Gish I can think of that does that is the Duskblade. Even Swordsages who are similar to gish, have 3/4ths BAB progression and won't hit 6 BAB at level 6.

You can make a very effective character by taking 6 levels of Duskblade and picking out some efficient feats.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

There's Battle Sorcerer (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererVariantBattleS orcerer), and you can add in the Stalwart Sorcerer variant from CM to get more HP and Weapon Focus for free in exchange for even fewer spells known and per day. Psychic Warrior also makes a decent single-class gish. Most gish prestige classes don't start until level 7+, so they're not usable in E6.

Mystic Ranger from Dragon 336 with Sword of the Arcane Order is probably the best E6 gish without kobold shenanigans. It gets the Ranger BAB, skills, saves, and HP, and at level 6 can cast 3rd level spells from both the ranger and wizard spell lists.

Otherwise, start with a Desert Kobold (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/environmentalRacialVariants.htm#desertKobolds), take the feat Dragonwrought to become a dragon, take the Loredrake archtype, get the Spellhoarding dementia/template, be venerable, and perform the Draconic Rite of Passage and get the feat Draconic Reserve to do the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, and go Stalwart Battle Sorcerer 6. That character gets a +4 BAB, 6d8+12+(6xCon) HP, and casts spells as a 9th level Wizard.

[Kosjsjach]

It has been said that one of the perks of E6 is that each character is well-defined in their role. As the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy so eloquently put it:
"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were REAL men, women were REAL women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry creatures from Aplha Centauri."
In the same spirit, at 6th level, casters are REAL casters, fighters are REAL fighters (the role, not the class), and tumbling backstabbing dexterous knife-wielders are REAL tumbling backstabbing dexterous knifewielders. Full casters have their 3rd-level spells, full-BAB classes have their iterative attack, rogues have 3d6 sneak attack.

If you want a melee-er that can cast spells, I'd also suggest Duskblade. Heck, even Paladin is a viable character option in E6 (though perhaps not for a full-blown "gish"). I guess my point is, I wouldn't even really bother with making a spellslinging bruiser; pick a role and fill it.

[Gan The Grey]

It has been said that one of the perks of E6 is that each character is well-defined in their role. As the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy so eloquently put it:
"In those days spirits were brave, the stakes were high, men were REAL men, women were REAL women, and small furry creatures from Alpha Centauri were REAL small furry creatures from Aplha Centauri."
In the same spirit, at 6th level, casters are REAL casters, fighters are REAL fighters (the role, not the class), and tumbling backstabbing dexterous knife-wielders are REAL tumbling backstabbing dexterous knifewielders. Full casters have their 3rd-level spells, full-BAB classes have their iterative attack, rogues have 3d6 sneak attack.

If you want a melee-er that can cast spells, I'd also suggest Duskblade. Heck, even Paladin is a viable character option in E6 (though perhaps not for a full-blown "gish"). I guess my point is, I wouldn't even really bother with making a spellslinging bruiser; pick a role and fill it.

Pretty much all of this, with a hefty portion of extra Duskblade.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The point of a gish is not to make a melee combatant who also throws spells, but to make a melee combatant who uses spells to make him a better melee combatant. Duskblade is lacking in the buffs department, its best offerings being Magic Weapon and Bull's Strength. Its ability to channel touch spells through a melee weapon is nice, but it can't even get Arcane Strike, and it cannot full attack when using Arcane Channeling. A Battle Sorcerer with Power Attack and Arcane Strike makes a better E6 gish than a Duskblade when you consider what goes into a 3.5 gish. Pick up Spring Attack and that iterative attack won't even matter, but again that's not compatible with Arcane Channeling. Duskblade is a good, playable class, but due to its limited spell selection it falls short of the title of gish.

[Escheton]

I would give some advice, but I do not know what e6 is.
Can someone link me?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would give some advice, but I do not know what e6 is.
Can someone link me?

http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=352719

[AvatarZero]

Battle Sorcerer is a good catch. BAB 4 and 3rd level arcane spell (just the one) is a decent sort of sixth level gish. Still, just one third level spell known...

Maximising casting probably isn't as important for a character that will never get the stuff that works on a larger scale than "this encounter" (ie. teleport, plane shift, planar binding, charm monster, animate dead, stuff that lets you control the terms of how you fight), so what about more fun stuff?

Paladin 2/Sorcerer4 has incredible saves and lots of first level spells per day, plus one second level spell (wraithstrike?). Paladin2/Wizard3/Sorcerer1 also gets good saves, a few second level spells, and a lot of first level spells, but with the advantage of being a scroll battery (arcane and divine, I think, but you might need Practiced Spellcaster: Paladin to be able to create your own divine scrolls).

Fighter 1/Wizard 5 and either Armored Mage, Still Spell, or a keen eye for spells that don't have somatic components could be interesting. Grab some full plate.

If you enjoy punching things, there's the Enlightened Fist PrC. It's suggested that players be allowed to pick up PrC class features as sixth level feats.

[Person_Man]

If you're going to use spells in E6, it's generally best to go Whatever 1/Wizard or Cleric or Druid or Archivist or Psion 5. If you're not going to use spells, then you want to avoid spells altogether. Look for the low level "gems" that can be augmented with feats, such as:

Paladin 2/4/5: Divine Grace/Turn Undead/Special Mount
Lion Totem Barbarian 1: Pounce and Rage
Binder 1 or 3: Dahlver-Nar or Paimon (!) Vestige
Totemist 2: Totem Chakra, +1 Totem essentia capacity
Incarnate 3: +1 essentia capacity
Crusader 4: Steely Resolve 10, maneuvers, stances
Swordsage 2: Wis to AC in light armor, maneuvers, stances
Rogue 2: Sneak Attack (opens several Feat combos), Evasion
Wildshape Ranger 5: Wildshape


So, what exactly do you consider a "gish" to be? Does it have to be arcane magic, or can it be "guy who uses supernatural-ish stuff to buff himself and kill enemies? Because if you believe in the later, some combination of the above will be a lot stronger then a traditional Fighter/Wizard build.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

A Battle Sorcerer 6 with Cha 16 gets 5/6/5/3 spells/day, and has 6/3/1/1 spells known. You can get a Runestaff for access to additional spells, for example a Runestaff with one 3rd, two 2nd, and two 1st level spells would cost only 5600 gp. One with twice as many (two 3rd, four 2nd, and four 1st) would be only 9600 gp. You could also get Eternal Wands of low-level buffs for fairly cheap to save on spell slots. A Circlet of Rapid Casting can help you get a buff out without sacrificing any attacks.

[Escheton]

5 lvls of wizard with 1 lvl of warblade is pretty sweet.
4 lvls of sorcerer with 2 lvls of crusader is pretty sweet.
5 lvsl of dread necro with 1 lvl of crusader is pretty sweet.
6 lvls of warlock is pretty sweet. And I advice it most.
1 lvl of factotum with 3 lvls of wizard with 2 lvls of warblade is pretty sweet.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

As for what I consider a Gish to be, it would be a character who is, by all appearances and proficiencies, martially capable, but who can also cast (specifically self-buffing).

Not sure if that's the currently accepted definition.

[true_shinken]

Looks like and eldritch claw based melee warlock would fare pretty well on E6. Considering you'd use things like leaps and bounds to augment your movement skills, I'd go out on a limb and even call it a true gish.
Warblade 1/Warlock 5 for BAB 4, utility from Warlock, boosts and counters from Warblade. You can either use eldritch claws to attack twice or eldritch glaive to threaten.
Sadly, E6 does not allow you to get Quicken SLA.
The extra feats you'll gain are pretty good for melee warlocks, this one in particular, since he has more than one combat style.

[jiriku]

Cleric 6 offers some interesting gish-type options. CoDzilla is viable in E6, and with a persistent wraithstrike (acquired via anyspell from the spell domain) and a two-handed weapon, or persistent ice axe (or moon blade or blade of pain and fear or flame blade or...you get the point), you can seriously lay down the pain even with only one attack per round. Feats like Law Devotion or Knowledge Devotion (excellent for a cloistered cleric) greatly improve your accuracy. And of course, clerics can self-buff like nobody's business, and use close wounds to heal a little without sacrificing an attack.

[Draz74]

As for what I consider a Gish to be, it would be a character who is, by all appearances and proficiencies, martially capable, but who can also cast (specifically self-buffing).

Ah, but what's the definition of "cast"? Does it have to be Vancian spellcasting? (And specifically Arcane, at that?) Or do Invocations, Incarnum, Vestiges, Psionic Powers, etc. count?

[Person_Man]

As for what I consider a Gish to be, it would be a character who is, by all appearances and proficiencies, martially capable, but who can also cast (specifically self-buffing).

Would a character with UMD count towards your definition? Treasure is a lot more plentiful then class levels in E6 games once you get to the 6th level. So buying a few Wands of Whatever with wand bracers and wand chambers is far more efficient then taking 1-4 levels of a caster class.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Ah, but what's the definition of "cast"? Does it have to be Vancian spellcasting? (And specifically Arcane, at that?) Or do Invocations, Incarnum, Vestiges, Psionic Powers, etc. count?

Anything supernatural would count, in my definition. I'd prefer to avoid Incarnum and Vestiges, as those bring in more books than I want to bother picking up, but Psionics and Invocations are fine.


Would a character with UMD count towards your definition? Treasure is a lot more plentiful then class levels in E6 games once you get to the 6th level. So buying a few Wands of Whatever with wand bracers and wand chambers is far more efficient then taking 1-4 levels of a caster class.

Sure, that would work just fine.

[Escheton]

Altough warlock5/tob class 1 is nice, full warlock gives you a lesser invocation.
What more conveys magic warrior then all day flight?

[Maeglin_Dubh]

Altough warlock5/tob class 1 is nice, full warlock gives you a lesser invocation.
What more conveys magic warrior then all day flight?

In the NWN PW I play in, epic level sorcerors and wizards get a special animation that shows them levitating and having their weapons float by them, fighting of their own volition.

It does a lot to indicate at a glance who is insanely magical.

[Person_Man]

Sure, that would work just fine.

OK then. Incarnum and vestiges would be my first suggestion. But since you prefer not to use them, consider:

Warlock 6: Can Take 10 on UMD checks, Detect Magic at will (useful for finding magic traps and treasure), gets one Lesser invocation, and allows you to take the Extra Invocation feat (which lets you fill up on as many Least invocations as you want).
Dragonfire Adept (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=2) 6: Basically the same as a Warlock, except you trade your ability to Take 10 on UMD and get a breath weapon that is vastly superior to Eldritch Blast.
Rogue 2/Swordsage 4: UMD, Evasion, Sneak Attack (for Sudden Strike feat), Wis to AC in light armor, and 3rd level stances and maneuvers.

[Maeglin_Dubh]

I don't have any balance issues with Incarnum or Vestiges, but they would require my entire group learning a whole new system on top of what's already in 3.5 for fighting and casting and psionics.

[Person_Man]

I don't have any balance issues with Incarnum or Vestiges, but they would require my entire group learning a whole new system on top of what's already in 3.5 for fighting and casting and psionics.

Binder is actually fairly simple, especially in E6. Each morning you pick 1 vestige from a relatively small list. That vestige provides 4 or 5 abilities. All of the abilities are continuous (like bonus feats or Uncanny Dodge) or can be used once every 5 rounds. Everything is Supernatural, so they don't trigger attacks of opportunity and can't be dispelled by anything less then an anti-magic field, which you should never encounter in E6. It's actually far simpler then vancian magic or psionics. It's just not as well known.

I won't argue that Incarnum would be easy to learn. But it is rewarding once you do.