Warhammer 40K Char in DND [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Volomon

2010-07-14, 11:14 AM

The Emp would probably be an epic level Psychic Warrior/Psion

I don't think even that would cover the Emperor, I think it would be the equivalent of a god or demigod and could not even be reproduced. His will and power influences not only space travel, by his will alone is travel possible, he can bend time and space, and use his powers through the galaxy even in a undead state. Just by range alone his level would have to be astronomical.

His power is so great that in order to fill it billions must be sacrificed each month and each of these billions must possess some psychic power. So each one is at least level 1 or more in some psychic class.

If we were going off this he would be level infinite billion.

I also donno about the librarian being represented, D&D is mortals becoming powerful. Warhammer are superhumans (I would say they possess between 20-30 in each state starting off, with the possibility of becoming more powerful later), with the possibilities of tapping into the warp (a plane of supernatural beings), sort of like a Cleric. Maybe a high level (20) psion or cleric would represent him, but it really wouldn't do justice to the sheer force of destruction a Warhammer Librarian of that magnitude would possess.

In order to be represented I think he would have to be level 20 fighter/level 20 psychic class to represent how long he's been alive, if not more. Warhammer is a bit more brute, a fire ball is something that comes out of some dudes pistol, it would be laughable to the Librarian.

awa

2010-07-14, 11:27 AM

or its just an epic spell powered by an insane material component all the psychics that has got to drop the cost by a lot.

Volomon

2010-07-14, 11:28 AM

or its just an epic spell powered by an insane material component all the psychics that has got to drop the cost by a lot.

The sacrifice is to fuel the emperor not a spell. As he is dying the sacrifice of lives keep him alive. Just by his mere presence is space travel possible because his psychic energy is like a Star in the sky without the stars you can't navigate, or in the case of a compass the magnetic poles. I think this all just goes to show how much potential power a single individual in Warhammer 40k can possess. To remake these people in D&D you would have to start them out as demigods.

Meta

2010-07-14, 11:34 AM

Just a 6-7 level wizard-fighter-eldritch knight with a +1 armour :smalltongue:

DnD stuff is nasty, characters from other backgrounds are fairly low level.

Characters in DBZ need a power level of around 9 billion to be a godlike entity. The equivalent on the same power scale would be no more than 100,000 in DnD.

Also, there's a cyborg abomination in the 40k universe that has 1300 star systems as psychic thralls. Trillions of people. Basically it makes leadership look like waste of a feat slot. When it's killed, by space marines btw :P, its psychic death wail kills billions of psykers across the galaxy.

Maybe it's just me, but that seems to one up the lady of pain

The Glyphstone

2010-07-14, 11:36 AM

Maybe it's just me, but that seems to one up the lady of pain

Not within the boundaries of Sigil.

But that's off topic...and technically, the Emperor isn't dead, he's under the effects of an epic Temporal Stasis that leaves his mental capacities functional.

Volomon

2010-07-14, 11:39 AM

Not within the boundaries of Sigil.

But that's off topic...and technically, the Emperor isn't dead, he's under the effects of an epic Temporal Stasis that leaves his mental capacities functional.

That's true, hes in a state of dying though. And his body is all but a corpse anyway, thats why they call him the Carrion God. Else it wouldn't make much sense to keep someone alive who is dead, hence undead state, cause without that machine he would just instantly die.

Meta

2010-07-14, 11:41 AM

Not within the boundaries of Sigil.

But that's off topic...and technically, the Emperor isn't dead, he's under the effects of an epic Temporal Stasis that leaves his mental capacities functional.

Vecna would be considerably less powerful than this creature, and he had her on the edge of defeat. The lady is extremely powerful in her domain, but not all powerful

And alas, the throne is starting to fail

Anonomuss

2010-07-14, 01:40 PM

I think this all just goes to show how much potential power a single individual in Warhammer 40k can possess. To remake these people in D&D you would have to start them out as demigods.

Are you being serious? There are ships in DnD who wield the power to find direction is a desolate void without the need for such wasteful spell components. A wizard can easily eclipse such powers, move fleets of star craft, raise the dead, and stop time, before he needs to take a bit of a breather. While the emperor is so taken up with being a compass that he basically has a Con of 0. He's not really god-like by DnD standards. But that's really the point isn't it.

There are different standard in the two worlds, and different things hold different weights and risks. Wizards and psions face little risk in wielding their powers in DnD, whereas Psykers take enormous risks in Warhammer, and their powers hardly compares to the technology of the world. The "rules" of the worlds don't really pass across. In warhammer the inherent risks are seldom worth the rewards, and odrinary folk can seldom aspire to more than being cannon fodder, where in DnD ordinary folk can wield the power of Gods, be stabbed several times, destroy large fantastical beasts, and it is regarded as being the norm.

It is not a slander to say that Mephiston, Space Marine Librarian, is a medium level creature. Warhammer is meant to be gritty and dark, and so death is not meant to be far off, even from it's most powerful heros. The primarchs, themselves were not gods or even demigods, and the emperor was killed by one. Also, it's meant to be on a scale. Mephiston couldn't really take on a Balor/Bloodthirster without support.

Prime32

2010-07-14, 02:09 PM

I would point out that space marines are superhuman as well particularly if you go from the fluff not the war game rules. There no superman but they would easily fit into a mid power superhero game. I think just level 6-7 is not quite right.Level 6-10 is the power range of most superheroes. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

Meta

2010-07-14, 02:26 PM

Oslecamo

2010-07-14, 03:02 PM

Honestly, it's hard to make these comparisons to a system like 3.X because frankly it's not a balanced system at all. Wizards go from house cat bait to time-stopping, reality shifting, monsters. And heck if you're pun pun, you can experience the roller coaster ride of pretty insignificant to godly all in one level!

That's D&D for you. Start a villager, end up as a god. We don't call high level play epic for nothing.:smallwink:

The ONLY reliable way to gauge how strong DnD characters are to other fictional characters is to use famous NPCs. Just like the characters in 40k or other fictional universe's are. The gulf between cheesy, optimized, and overpowered PCs and 'the norm' is too large.

The problem here it's that many authors are biased, and in 40K in particular they're VERY biased, making the fluff vary wildly. SM are being stabbed to death by normal humans with wooden sticks in one novel and walking trough concrete walls like they weren't there in other.

Elminster makes a good benchmark.
Drizzt makes a good benchmark.

Vecna, who started as a lowly wizard and ended up ascending to godhood makes a better benchmark.:smallamused:

How can I put this? Half the D&D gods were lowly mortals at one point or the other.

In 40K, how many managed that? The emprah is a rotting corpse, stabbed to almost death by his own creations and Slanesh demanded the sacrifice of trillions of eldars to make just one god.

Volomon

2010-07-14, 03:12 PM

Level 6-10 is the power range of most superheroes. (http://www.thealexandrian.net/creations/misc/d&d-calibrating.html)

That's one just some random website, and two an opinion at best. The problem with saying a "superhero" fits in the game by a measure of levels is again at best ludicrous. A level is a measure of experience not of raw talent or power, which would be the case for a "superhero". A hero of any magnitude would be like a race and would probably come with a +level adjustment.

A space marine is super human, he for instance has two hearts, one of 19 extra organs. I can see it working but he would easily have a +level adjustment of 4 or 5. This is if you were using a neophyte space maine (meaning no experience no armor). Even after the adjustment for the modification of the human body, you would then have to adjust for the levels they had before becoming a Space Marine, for instance on some worlds they recruit from they are very similar to D&D, with all kinds of beasts from sea serpents to dragon like creatures to even magic (in Warhammer is Psychic power though). Only the best of the world are recruited and turned into space marines. So imagine some level 20 guy who gets recruited then turned into a super human. Now granted level 20 is usually beyond normal for a lot of campaigns and maybe level 6-10 is more appropriate.

I would compare it as taking a D&D character at whatever level they happen to be and adding +10 to all stats except mental stats (INT, WILL, CHA), if the character possess low Will power the character will die in training. Then giving them power armor that gives them insane AC and even more strength.

I think this is comparable because Warhammer 40k has a Warhammer Fantasy version. In the Dark Heresy book the power armor gives +10 str the average human strength is 10 already. However the Space Marine already has enhance str giving him around 20+, at the end he would have 30+.

If I sat here long enough I could probably write up a Space Marine "race".

I would say Elminster and a unique powerful Librarian are comparable.

Killer Angel

2010-07-14, 03:15 PM

I don't think even that would cover the Emperor, I think it would be the equivalent of a god or demigod and could not even be reproduced. His will and power influences not only space travel, by his will alone is travel possible, he can bend time and space, and use his powers through the galaxy even in a undead state.

Sounds to me like a "standard" 20° wizard lich. Only, The Emperor is stuck on a chair, that isn't neither wheeling. :smalltongue:

Volomon

2010-07-14, 03:15 PM

Vecna, who started as a lowly wizard and ended up ascending to godhood makes a better benchmark.:smallamused:

How can I put this? Half the D&D gods were lowly mortals at one point or the other.

In 40K, how many managed that? The emprah is a rotting corpse, stabbed to almost death by his own creations and Slanesh demanded the sacrifice of trillions of eldars to make just one god.

Ya but you have to take in to account that the gods in Warhammer 40k tend to be actual gods, compared to D&D gods they tend not to be world devouring gods. When a Warhammer 40k Dark God yawns billions die and entire planets explode, in D&D they never quite beat the PCs of a campaign, let alone any other god. I think you could compare the D&D gods to the mere demons (who were also once mortal) that devour a planet here and there for fun.

Meta

2010-07-14, 03:16 PM

That's D&D for you. Start a villager, end up as a god. We don't call high level play epic for nothing.:smallwink:

The problem here it's that many authors are biased, and in 40K in particular they're VERY biased, making the fluff vary wildly. SM are being stabbed to death by normal humans with wooden sticks in one novel and walking trough concrete walls like they weren't there in other.

Vecna, who started as a lowly wizard and ended up ascending to godhood makes a better benchmark.:smallamused:

How can I put this? Half the D&D gods were lowly mortals at one point or the other.

In 40K, how many managed that? The emprah is a rotting corpse, stabbed to almost death by his own creations and Slanesh demanded the sacrifice of trillions of eldars to make just one god.

I wouldn't compare gods, since they're so unique to a particular fictional setting, some walk around with the mortals, some are never seen, some are omnipotent, others a glorified archduke.

Hence why I suggested drizzt and elminster.

I wouldn't recommend using 40k novels, the fluff from the rule book and codices will be your best shot at a cohesive whole.

Space Marines killed with sticks? Really? I feel like that author just loss a rough game against the Emperor's finest and was nursing a bit of a grudge.

And the emperor in his current form is harder to measure, his accomplishments and powers are better measured when he's an extremely powerful human alongside Horus and the other primarchs.

Edit: +1 to poster above me. That cyborg alien i described earlier in the thread? Even that thing isn't a god in 40k. The gods of 40k are (imo) much more traditionally godlike than the dnd's

Killer Angel

2010-07-14, 03:30 PM

Edit: +1 to poster above me. That cyborg alien i described earlier in the thread? Even that thing isn't a god in 40k. The gods of 40k are (imo) much more traditionally godlike than the dnd's

...but a D&D wizard can devastate a planet better than an Exterminatus.

Ravens_cry

2010-07-14, 03:40 PM

40K fluff is worse then reading the Batman and God Wizard guides, it takes ego stroking to downright ludicrous levels. Everything in the Codices is the ultimate best at what it does and has complete advantage over everything else.

Oslecamo

2010-07-14, 03:42 PM

I wouldn't compare gods, since they're so unique to a particular fictional setting, some walk around with the mortals, some are never seen, some are omnipotent, others a glorified archduke.

Doesn't matter. Vecna started as a lowly lv1 mortal and went all the way to deity. He gave the Lady of Pain a run for her money. He slayed avampire Balor before ascending. After it tried to backstab him.

Meanwhile, the emprah had trouble dealing with warbosses, wich even a lowly commisar can defeat with a single hand!:smallcool:

Space Marines killed with sticks? Really? I feel like that author just loss a rough game against the Emperor's finest and was nursing a bit of a grudge.

And who's to say it isn't the other way around, and that the novel where the space marine busts trough concrete walls isn't frustation after seeing his termie killed by a grot?:smallwink:

And the emperor in his current form is harder to measure, his accomplishments and powers are better measured when he's an extremely powerful human alongside Horus and the other primarchs.

Again, the emprah had trouble dealing with warbosses.
Comissar Yarrick kills Warbosses with a single hand.

Edit: +1 to poster above me. That cyborg alien i described earlier in the thread? Even that thing isn't a god in 40k. The gods of 40k are (imo) much more traditionally godlike than the dnd's

Really? Then why did the emprah needed city-sized ships to travel? D&D wizards teleport their armies directly to the target.:smallamused:

A 7th lv cleric can ressurect people. In 40K only the greater chaos gods can do that.

Bharg

2010-07-14, 04:00 PM

Again, the emprah had trouble dealing with warbosses.
Comissar Yarrick kills Warbosses with a single hand.

Wasn't that in the good old time when warbosses were real warbosses and people actually knew how their technology worked and stuff?

Oslecamo

2010-07-14, 04:10 PM

Wasn't that in the good old time when warbosses were real warbosses and people actually knew how their technology worked and stuff?

Emprah with the best equipment the imperium ever saw and psionic powers.

Yarrick with one basic power sword, one arm and his guts.

I rest my case.

Prime32

2010-07-14, 04:19 PM

That's one just some random website, and two an opinion at best. The problem with saying a "superhero" fits in the game by a measure of levels is again at best ludicrous. A level is a measure of experience not of raw talent or power, which would be the case for a "superhero". A hero of any magnitude would be like a race and would probably come with a +level adjustment.Um... what? A character with one character level and a level adjustment of +5 is a 6th-level character. :smallconfused:

A space marine is super human, he for instance has two hearts, one of 19 extra organs. I can see it working but he would easily have a +level adjustment of 4 or 5. This is if you were using a neophyte space maine (meaning no experience no armor). Even after the adjustment for the modification of the human body, you would then have to adjust for the levels they had before becoming a Space Marine, for instance on some worlds they recruit from they are very similar to D&D, with all kinds of beasts from sea serpents to dragon like creatures to even magic (in Warhammer is Psychic power though). Only the best of the world are recruited and turned into space marines. So imagine some level 20 guy who gets recruited then turned into a super human. Now granted level 20 is usually beyond normal for a lot of campaigns and maybe level 6-10 is more appropriate.A level 6-7 D&D character can break world records. I'm not sure whether or not WH40K allows normal humans to surpass real-world levels - if it doesn't, the best of the best would be 4th to 5th level, who are a match for at least four normal soldiers in a fight.

I would compare it as taking a D&D character at whatever level they happen to be and adding +10 to all stats except mental stats (INT, WILL, CHA), if the character possess low Will power the character will die in training. Then giving them power armor that gives them insane AC and even more strength.

I think this is comparable because Warhammer 40k has a Warhammer Fantasy version. In the Dark Heresy book the power armor gives +10 str the average human strength is 10 already. However the Space Marine already has enhance str giving him around 20+, at the end he would have 30+.A dragonborn water orc barbarian with the Reckless Rage feat can have a Str and Con of 28 at 1st-level. Cheap templates like feral and half-minotaur push it up way higher, and that's before we add magic items. Incidentally, such a character was transformed into a more powerful form and has access to a PrC which boosts his strength while giving him the ability to spit acid. And if he has the right equipment... (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cw/20070212a)

I'll admit I haven't seen much of the Warhammer d20 game, but what I remember seemed... oddly balanced to say the least.

MachineWraith

2010-07-14, 04:23 PM

Doesn't matter. Vecna started as a lowly lv1 mortal and went all the way to deity. He gave the Lady of Pain a run for her money. He slayed avampire Balor before ascending. After it tried to backstab him.

Meanwhile, the emprah had trouble dealing with warbosses, wich even a lowly commisar can defeat with a single hand!:smallcool:

Again, the emprah had trouble dealing with warbosses.
Comissar Yarrick kills Warbosses with a single hand.

Really? Then why did the emprah needed city-sized ships to travel? D&D wizards teleport their armies directly to the target.:smallamused:

Pretty sure the Emperor never had trouble dealing with much of anything, other than Horus + Chaos Gods. Unless you have access to some source I haven't read...

The fact that a D&D cleric can resurrect people has more to do with the setting and gameplay mechanics. Not really a measure of power. It wouldn't be much of a novel if resurrection of the dead heroes was as easy as it is in D&D.

Grumman

2010-07-14, 04:27 PM

A level 6-7 D&D character can break world records. I'm not sure whether or not WH40K allows normal humans to surpass real-world levels - if it doesn't, the best of the best would be 4th to 5th level, who are a match for at least four normal men in a fight.
It's not the sort of thing they have world records for, but how about "Iron Hand" Straken, who had half his chest bitten off by a land shark, but didn't let that stop him tearing its throat out?

Prime32

2010-07-14, 04:29 PM

It's not the sort of thing they have world records for, but how about "Iron Hand" Straken, who had half his chest bitten off by a land shark, but didn't let that stop him tearing its throat out?Depends on how damage is represented. I'd say he has the Diehard feat.

jguy

2010-07-14, 04:31 PM

Didn't the Emperor break the back of a C'Tan, essentially a techno-organic god who is billions of years old? Its in the middle of Mars right now, 40,000 years later, nursing its wounds.

The Gods of 40K are more anthropomorphic emotions powered by trillions of lives, and there are 4 of them, while D&D gods run the gambit from "guy who watches roads" to the "The Sun"

I think the problem with D&D gods is we only see them influence the one world, the one the characters are on, while 40K has the Chaos gods conquer solar systems as a matter of course...and the Emperor scared the ever living c**p out of them.

Bharg

2010-07-14, 04:43 PM

Isn't the question... what are the stats of a basic spacemarine and what level would this special character look like?

High Strength, Constitution (25-30+)
Large Size
No Aging?

What else?

hamishspence

2010-07-14, 04:47 PM

Would they be Large, or Medium with Powerful Build?

8 ft and 500 lb is the normal minimum for Large (with a few rare exceptions)

Though I might count Terminator Armour as giving them true Large Size, with Reach and everything.

Bharg

2010-07-14, 04:55 PM

Meta

2010-07-14, 04:57 PM

lol @ emperor not being able to kill a warboss.

And the above posters have demonstrated EXACTLY why you cant compare gods among settings. Sure Vecna looks awesome when compared to a space marine but hes nothing in comparison to the the strongest denizens of the 40k universe.

Read all the codices and rulebook to receive a balanced view of things. That's obvious. Not doing so is like watching one news channel and espousing everything you see as absolute truth.

And I have already said that wizards do things out of line with the power level of Dnd but that's because its an extremely flawed system. The fact is, each warhammer faction has some amazing characters on their histories. In dnd the best characters are these conceptual spell casters. No one the boards thus far has mentioned well look what a level 20 fighter can do!

It's not that DnD has an amazing relative power scale, it's that wotc is just bad as balancing within it's own system. Hence why using NPCs is the right way to go as already posted.

hamishspence

2010-07-14, 05:02 PM

They are like 3 meters tall anyway, right? And a lot heavier with their implants, enhanced muscles and so on. (+bulky armor) I guess large would be appropriate.
I am sure they're capable of wrestling an ogre without a problem.

Most of the novels, artwork, etc- depicts Space Marines as between 7 and 8 ft tall. Power armour doesn't add much to this- though Terminator armour might.

The 40K equivalent of Ogres are Ogryns- a bit taller than a Marine or a Terminator, take up twice as much space as Marines in a transport- just as Terminators do.

In the Tau codex, an armoured Marine, Tau, and Imperial diplomat are shown standing next to each other- and the Marine, while big, certainly doesn't look anywhere near 10 ft.

Bharg

2010-07-14, 05:06 PM

Are they wide enough at least?

I think Ogryns would be stronger than Ogres :\

hamishspence

2010-07-14, 05:09 PM

Terminators are- Marines are rather narrower though.

Warhammer Ogres are roughly the same shape as Ogryns- 9-10 ft tall- and very wide.

The Inquisitor scale models are probably better at representing the size difference between Marines and normal humans, though. In that, the Marine is about a head taller than most of the others- and very broad.

Hence me thinking the Goliath in Races of Stone, or the Half-Giant in Expanded Psionics Handbook (Powerful build) make better analogs than the Half-Ogre (Large).

Bharg

2010-07-14, 05:12 PM

What other modifications does a Space Marine need to be a spacemarine?
How powerful would their armor be?
What does the OP want?! :smallfrown:

Meta

2010-07-14, 05:18 PM

What other modifications does a Space Marine need to be a spacemarine?
How powerful would their armor be?
What does the OP want?! :smallfrown:

Well they have the ability to do the whole 'i don't need to sleep thing.' Cuz they can rest halves of their brains at different times and switch em on and off like a light switch so basically like any race that can just mediate instead of sleep.

They've got a ton of muscle and skeletal enlargements that something like 75% of recruits don't survive.

They should prob have a resistance to if not immunity to fear effects.

There's really a ton but like above poster said, dunno what the OP wants :smalltongue:

Ravens_cry

2010-07-14, 05:18 PM

What other modifications does a Space Marine need to be a spacemarine?
How powerful would their armor be?
What does the OP want?! :smallfrown:
They appear to want to translate a Warhammer 40k unit into D&D mechanics.

hamishspence

2010-07-14, 05:19 PM

Power Armour should probably be a bit above Full Plate in quality.

Maybe something like:

+15 AC, Armour Check Penalty -2, Light Armour, Max Dexterity Bonus +6. Maybe grants a +2 enhancement bonus to strength, +6 with Black Carapace.

A Black Carapace might make it a little better- since Marines are able to use it to make the most of power armour- whereas Sisters, who don't have it, aren't as strong (though the armour does boost their jumping and strength).

Prime32

2010-07-14, 05:32 PM

Oslecamo

2010-07-14, 05:32 PM

Didn't the Emperor break the back of a C'Tan, essentially a techno-organic god who is billions of years old? Its in the middle of Mars right now, 40,000 years later, nursing its wounds.

Nah, he's been spreading his influence trough the imperium all this time. The adeptus mechanicus are pretty much his puppets by now. He's just waiting for his brothers to show signs of life.

The Gods of 40K are more anthropomorphic emotions powered by trillions of lives, and there are 4 of them, while D&D gods run the gambit from "guy who watches roads" to the "The Sun"

I think the problem with D&D gods is we only see them influence the one world, the one the characters are on, while 40K has the Chaos gods conquer solar systems as a matter of course...and the Emperor scared the ever living c**p out of them.

The puny 40K gods limit themselves to a couple planes of existence and are indeed scared of one puny human who can't even deal with an oversized ork.:smallbiggrin:

D&D gods make their will known across multiple infinite planes of existence.:smallwink:

Bharg

2010-07-14, 05:33 PM

Well they have the ability to do the whole 'i don't need to sleep thing.' Cuz they can rest halves of their brains at different times and switch em on and off like a light switch so basically like any race that can just mediate instead of sleep.

Wow, so they're like dolphins... I see.

Ravens_cry

2010-07-14, 05:39 PM

Wow, so they're like dolphins... I see.
Let's see, are they vicious baby killing murderers?
Wow, they ARE just like Dolphins!

Meta

2010-07-14, 05:40 PM

Nah, he's been spreading his influence trough the imperium all this time. The adeptus mechanicus are pretty much his puppets by now. He's just waiting for his brothers to show signs of life.

The puny 40K gods limit themselves to a couple planes of existence and are indeed scared of one puny human who can't even deal with an oversized ork.:smallbiggrin:

D&D gods make their will known across multiple infinite planes of existence.:smallwink:

Ughh instead of just a derail and making things up, now you're trolling too?

And I didn't know dolphins could do that, awesome!

Edit: out of all the forces most likely to kill babies SMs are pretty low on that list in 40k

And Idk what you're talking about with the ego stroking either. I just read the first stories I saw in SM and Dark Angels Codex and theyre about the loss of the first chapter and the fallen respectively

Bharg

2010-07-14, 06:00 PM

Prime32

2010-07-14, 06:11 PM

So medium with powerful built works meaning that Space Marine Weaponry like Bolters, Heavy Bolters must be large... How much damage would they do?! Would a Bolter do splash damage? They work like an "assault" mgl, right?There's an explosive enchantment which could be applied to a repeating heavy crossbow or great crossbow (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.msg15068#msg15068).

MachineWraith

2010-07-14, 06:17 PM

The puny 40K gods limit themselves to a couple planes of existence and are indeed scared of one puny human who can't even deal with an oversized ork.:smallbiggrin:

Where exactly are you even getting this from? The Emperor never lost a battle until Horus, and even then, it was against the second most powerful human ever with the Chaos Gods backing him. And even then, Horus died too.

faceroll

2010-07-14, 06:44 PM

Meta

2010-07-14, 07:41 PM

Where exactly are you even getting this from? The Emperor never lost a battle until Horus, and even then, it was against the second most powerful human ever with the Chaos Gods backing him. And even then, Horus died too.

Yeah, and he pretty much won the fight straight up, but was too merciful and Horus made him pay. The Emperor's fluff is pretty awesome. I forget where I saw it but one of the pics in a book had pre heresy Emperor and it looked just like Jesus.

Also IIRC Ghazkull (sp?) Thraka is the most powerful warboss of all time and he's nowhere near any of the primarch's level. I remember taking him down with Calgar in game actually :smallwink:

Killer Angel

2010-07-15, 02:39 AM

Yeah, and he pretty much won the fight straight up, but was too merciful and Horus made him pay. The Emperor's fluff is pretty awesome.

Yeah, but fluff in WH40K is pretty contradictory between the various sources, so a lot of it, while good to read, it's unreliable.
Take the SM: they have access to thousands of years of military knowledge, storing data regardin fought battles. They are told to be masters in tactic and strategy.
And curiously, the favourite tactic of these smart guys, is often a mindless front charge.
Even if you don't consider DoW videos as an official source, we have the chaos codex depicting such a charge by a SM squad against a Soul Grinder. Guess who won?
At what point, the fluff is a valid source?

In most of cases, we have stories. Depicted to exalt one side.
Is the same dead end we ancounter when we trust too much D&D fluff (for example, Salvatore's books, are official fluff?).
If we consider EVERY PRINTED WORD, the absolute truth, we won't escape alive from the discussion... :smallwink:

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 02:43 AM

Where exactly are you even getting this from? The Emperor never lost a battle until Horus, and even then, it was against the second most powerful human ever with the Chaos Gods backing him. And even then, Horus died too.

In the Black Legion Index Astartes, there's the claim that a powerful warboss grabbed the Emperor by the throat, and he was only saved by Horus.

Of course, the Black Legion have a vested interest in saying that :smallbiggrin: "Our primarch is so tough he can beat guys that give the Emperor himself trouble"

Bharg

2010-07-15, 04:37 AM

"All Orks is equal, but some Orks are more equal dan uvvas."

Of course, these gamesworkshop people have to make all the factions equally attractive to people (ending in the popular spacemarines having a bazillion codexes and other people like orcs only a few and no new models).

There is two ways to translate Warhammer 40k Space Marines into D&D I can think of:
Comparing the game stats of a Space Marine and a mere Imperial Soldier as an example for a normal human. Rather since it uses d6s and other twisted rules I don't know.
Or tanslating fluff into gametermsto make it more precise or realistic. The question here is what is game relevant?

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 04:41 AM

The orks got a lot of new models fairly recently. It's Dark Eldar players who look wistfully at their ten year old models.

40K to D20 conversion- maybe going through D20 modern and D20 Future on the way- to get an idea of what the various laser and missile weapons should compare to?

As to Marines' level of power when compared to "ordinary men" that's a bit harder to calibrate- maybe use more detailed systems, like Inquisitor, to calibrate how strong the average Marine is supposed to be, and what extraordinary abilities he should have?

Bharg

2010-07-15, 04:55 AM

They were waiting a looong looong time.

Inquisitor? Is that something like Dark Heresy?

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 05:00 AM

It is- think of it as Dark Heresy but much more combat-centric and with nothing in the way of mechanics for out-of-combat stuff.

It was played with minis that were just over twice the size of standard ones.

Generally, it was an inquisitor and his allies, vs various enemies, like Chaos cultists, daemons, genestealers, or rival inquisitors.

So- not quite the "You play one character" principle of Dark Heresy- more like a missing link between Dark Heresy and 40K.

I think the Dark Heresy series doesn't really have mechanics for Marines yet- though the next main rulebook, Deathwatch, will.

That's why I thought Inquisitor might be more helpful.

Alleran

2010-07-15, 06:28 AM

The Emp would probably be an epic level Psychic Warrior/Psion
The Emperor is way, way more than an epic level Psion. He'd have so many divine ranks packed onto him that he'd be hitting whatever ranking there is beyond Overgod (and because there isn't one, we'd be making one for him). There's a giant warp storm (called the Storm of the Emperor's Wrath) about as big as a solar system that has been raging for the past five to ten thousand years. And he started that. From Terra. On the other side of the galaxy. His will projects the Astronomicon, focusing millions of slain psykers into a beacon that moves through the Warp and allows the Imperium to function (think an immensely huge Epic ritual - you're powering a massive psychic beacon all day every day across an entire galaxy). His presence in the Warp (his physical body is a mere shell, the last fragment tying his essence to the physical plane) is so powerful that the Chaos Gods were (and are) scared of him. And he does this while "fencing" mentally with the Tyranid Hive Mind, dividing up his consciousness into millions upon millions of different aspects so he can monitor the entire Imperium. As far as psychic classification goes, he would be an Omega Plus. Which is super-high-end Warp God levels. It goes back down the alphabet to Alpha Plus (the highest I think any mortal has ever been depicted as in books... and these sorts of people are truly terrifying) and there down to Alpha, then Beta, and so on. Inquisitor Eisenhorn might have reached low Beta by the end of his series, and he was utterly terrified of the raw power of heavily sedated, half-asleep Alpha Plus level psykers. You can't go above a Beta and be considered sane, either.

Part of the Emperor's power also goes into keeping the Webway sealed, because the Golden Throne is a gateway to a human-built Webway (unfortunately, Chaos managed to break into it, so the Emperor has to hold it shut or there'll be a daemon incursion onto Terra). He has literally perfect clairvoyance and understanding of the future. The only reason he didn't see Horus betraying him is, well... he did see it. He just refused to believe (out of love for his son) that Horus would betray him. His failing was that he still had human emotions at his core. And no longer is that the case, because he cast off that when he "ascended" to the Golden Throne. There's some background that states that all of his will, power, and strength (including the souls of all those who died venerating him, plus the belief of those still living) is currently coalescing in the Warp, just waiting for his mortal body to finally expire and sever the link, at which point he will rise up as a Warp God and destroy the Chaos Gods once and for all. If you believe it. The cool thing about all this? The Emperor actually represents the endpoint of human evolution. It's possible that, one day long into the future (if everybody survives), that every single human will be just like the Emperor in power.

By the way, the average weapon of a Space Marine (the bolter) is a rocket launcher. Or, rather, it is a machine gun that fires rockets (rocket-propelled grenades, technically) at the speed of bullets. They have bulletproof bones, spit acid, are seven to eight feet tall with some being even bigger (there's a comic somewhere that actually has a page of a "regular" human compared to a Black Templar in power armour... the difference is sizeable), with corresponding muscular mass to go with it (think super bodybuilder), have superhuman strength, can go without sleep for weeks on end and little food or rest, have two hearts, three lungs, an extra liver, superhuman stamina, immune to most poisons (and if you could get one drunk, I would be extremely surprised), have a healing factor that heals wounds extremely quickly, and lots of other cool toys (both built into them and that they wear and use). 40K is really an incredibly over the top grimdark universe, and the only reason humanity doesn't steamroll over everything is because everything else in the galaxy is just as over the top as they are. Have a look at the defenses surrounding Terra some time.

The problem with all this is that different authors of the background prefer to glorify their own pet projects. It's why the Tau are so amazingly good and fast-growing, and why the Ultramarines (or Smurfs, depending on your opinions of them) are so perfect.

Is the same dead end we ancounter when we trust too much D&D fluff (for example, Salvatore's books, are official fluff?).
If you mean his Drizzt novels, then yes. They're all official.

It was played with minis that were just over twice the size of standard ones.

Generally, it was an inquisitor and his allies, vs various enemies, like Chaos cultists, daemons, genestealers, or rival inquisitors.
And Space Marines were overpowered in that, too. If played right, just one could wipe out everything your opponent had.

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 06:33 AM

40K to D20 conversion- maybe going through D20 modern and D20 Future on the way- to get an idea of what the various laser and missile weapons should compare to?

I must point out in the homebrew section there was a recent atempt to make 40K d20 jut the other week.

It kinda failed because nobody could agree on the power level of all the things in 40K. Wich is perfectly understandable in a seting where we have instances of pointy pre-historic sticks on the hands of savages defeating technology ffrom 38.000 years in the future.

As to Marines' level of power when compared to "ordinary men" that's a bit harder to calibrate- maybe use more detailed systems, like Inquisitor, to calibrate how strong the average Marine is supposed to be, and what extraordinary abilities he should have?

I personally prefer that primarch quote that if he couldn't have 100 marines, then give him 1000 other troops. Wich implies that your average marine is roughly worth 10 regular soldiers. The novels of Cephias cain also point to that as he and half dozen soldiers are capable of holding off a single chaos marine.

Rockets and melta guns also kill a space marine dead on most of the fluff. Only terminator armor is capable of resisting heavy weaponry.

I think the Dark Heresy series doesn't really have mechanics for Marines yet- though the next main rulebook, Deathwatch, will.

Dark Heresy has mechanics for spech merines as enemies. Their unarmed punches hit harder than plasma guns (wich for the record punch trough space marine armor and bionic enanchments like it was paper). You can also pretty much unload all your ammo on them and only piss them off. Another sad instance of extreme biasis, meaning in Dark Heresy a single space marine is basically a TPK.

Alleran:For the record, there's no proof whatsoever that the emprah actualy did 90% of that stuff you pointed out. Warp storms appear and disappear all over the place all the time. The storm of the emprah's wrath just hapened to pop up over a chaos fleet heading to Terra so it was credited to the emprah. But meanwhile plenty of imperium planets are lost to warp storms poping over them. Lots of people claim they hear the emprah's voice and guidance, but as far as we know they may just be crazy, fanatic or the chaos gods tricking them. Besides being a giant beacon that needs to be feeded with souls every day, the emprah shows no clear signs of activity whatsoever.

Alleran

2010-07-15, 06:40 AM

I must point out in the homebrew section there was a recent atempt to make 40K d20 jut the other week.

It kinda failed because nobody could agree on the power level of all the things in 40K. Wich is perfectly understandable in a seting where we have instances of pointy pre-historic sticks on the hands of savages defeating technology ffrom 38.000 years in the future.
Well, if it was pointy sticks built with an STC, then that would be entirely unsurprising. A STC... *sigh*

You could do anything with those things. If you were on a planet with nothing but rocks and grass, you could ask the STC how to build a Baneblade. And it would tell you. How to make a Baneblade from rocks and grass. And it would be far, far superior to any other Baneblade ever made elsewhere in the Imperium. The Imperium found a planet that had Dark Age of Technology levels of civilisation once, and spent ten years or so trying to destroy it. They failed, and eventually just quarantined the place and left. Pity there aren't really any STCs left. There are blueprints, of course, though (a few people found a STC blueprint for a knife once, and each of them received an entire planet as their personal reward for it - after they had a fleet come and pick them up). For a fully-functioning STC, the Adeptus Mechanicus would probably strap giant rockets onto Mars and fly the planet to you.:smallcool:

Only terminator armor is capable of resisting heavy weaponry.
A Space Marine with Terminator Armour survived getting stepped on by a Titan.

Another sad instance of extreme biasis, meaning in Dark Heresy a single space marine is basically a TPK.
Or, depending on your perspective, exactly the way it should be.:smallwink:

Oslecamo: Not so. For one, Inquisitor Jaq Draco (in the "Inquisition War" trilogy) came to speak with the Emperor once, and he stopped time while they were there to speak with them, and pretty much confirmed that the Tarot etc. is all in fact him - just many fragments of him all focusing on different things at once. It is also fact that when Void Dragon came to Earth in 1300BC, the Emperor curbstomped him, build a rocket (...yes, in 1300BC) and fired him to Mars, where he hit so hard that it took forty thousand years for him to start coming out of his coma.

Prime32

2010-07-15, 06:43 AM

The Emperor is way, way more than an epic level Psion. He'd have so many divine ranks packed onto him that he'd be hitting whatever ranking there is beyond Overgod (and because there isn't one, we'd be making one for him).An Overdeity is one who is so removed from things that he has no effects on the world, only showing up once every eon or two to interact with the greatest of gods... if they're lucky. :smallconfused:

A greater deity can cause any number of mortals anywhere in the multiverse to die instantly, or restore any number of mortals to life, with no saving throw.

An intermediate deity can know everything.

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 06:45 AM

Well, if it was pointy sticks built with an STC, then that would be entirely unsurprising. A STC... *sigh*

You could do anything with those things. If you were on a planet with nothing but rocks and grass, you could ask the STC how to build a Baneblade. And it would tell you. How to make a Baneblade from rocks and grass. And it would be far, far superior to any other Baneblade ever made elsewhere in the Imperium. The Imperium found a planet that had Dark Age of Technology levels of civilisation once, and spent ten years or so trying to destroy it. They failed, and eventually just quarantined the place and left. Pity there aren't really any STCs left. There are blueprints, of course, though (a few people found a STC blueprint for a knife once, and each of them received an entire planet as their personal reward for it - after they had a fleet come and pick them up). For a fully-functioning STC, the Adeptus Mechanicus would probably strap giant rockets onto Mars and fly the planet to you.:smallcool:

Yes, STC are extra imba and there's even the stories of feral worlds building spaceships from rocks and sticks, but I'm talking about regular pointy sticks, not some super STC weapon.

AOne named legendary biased Space Marine with Terminator Armour survived getting stepped on by a Titan when he was in muddy terrain and then had to be dug out.

Fixed that for you.

Or, depending on your perspective, exactly the way it should be.:smallwink:
If that perspective was correct we wouldn't have space marines being overrun by savages with pointy sticks evar.:smallamused:

Oslecamo: Not so. For one, Inquisitor Jaq Draco (in the "Inquisition War" trilogy) came to speak with the Emperor once, and he stopped time while they were there to speak with them, and pretty much confirmed that the Tarot etc. is all in fact him - just many fragments of him all focusing on different things at once.

Biased novel for all we know. If we were to trust everything they say blood angels can read and manipulate minds wich begs the question how the hell didn't they see Horus preparing to betray them.

It is also fact that when Void Dragon came to Earth in 1300BC, the Emperor curbstomped him, build a rocket (...yes, in 1300BC) and fired him to Mars, where he hit so hard that it took forty thousand years for him to start coming out of his coma.

Again, he isn't in coma. He has been poisoning mankind's mind with technological dreams and it's from there that came. For all we know the Age of Strife, where mankind was at it's strongest was thanks to him. And bionics are just his plan to slowly turn mankind into soulless machines like he did with the necron race.

Alleran

2010-07-15, 06:48 AM

An Overdeity is one who is so removed from things that he has no effects on the world, only showing up once every eon or two to interact with the greatest of gods... if they're lucky.
I'm talking power scale, not necessarily the definition of what they are. Greater Deities have "millions" of worshippers. This doesn't apply to the Emperor, who has uncounted trillions and was already beyond the need for worship before he actually started getting the worship boost in the first place.

Fixed that for you.
But you broke it!

If that perspective was correct we wouldn't have space marines being overrun by savages with pointy sticks evar.
Which book/fluff are you talking about there? One of the feral worlds that the SMs recruit from? I did mention above that the problem is different authors exalting their own pet projects, and cited the two most egregious examples of it (Ultramarines and Tau).

Grumman

2010-07-15, 06:49 AM

Rockets and melta guns also kill a space marine dead on most of the fluff. Yes, but they also kill main battle tanks dead in most of the fluff.

Lots of people claim they hear the emprah's voice and guidance, but as far as we know they may just be crazy, fanatic or the chaos gods tricking them.
Crazy doesn't bring people back from the dead, ala Saint Celestine.

Bharg

2010-07-15, 06:51 AM

Aren't Rockets and Melter Guns are Space Marine Weaponry and the equivalents the Imperial Army uses heavy stationary weapons?

Doen't Ork Weaponry work totally different? Some kind of based on genetic knowledge pre-installed psi-powered sticks and stones?

Alleran

2010-07-15, 06:55 AM

Biased novel for all we know. If we were to trust everything they say blood angels can read and manipulate minds wich begs the question how the hell didn't they see Horus preparing to betray them.
Horus had all four Chaos Gods backing him. Sanguinius didn't have the stuff ('cause, y'know, he died). It took the Emperor, and he knew. He just didn't believe it because he had one, fatal flaw. He was still, at the heart, human, with human emotions.

Oh, and you can see the quote in question at Lexicanum. I'd copy it out of the book myself, but why bother when I can just link to somebody else's typing (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor)? :smallsmile:

Emperor is overpoweredly broken, man. Jus' roll wid' it. :smallcool:

Again, he isn't in coma.
Yeah, like I mentioned. He's coming out of it.

For all we know the Age of Strife, where mankind was at it's strongest was thanks to him.
Now you're stepping into pretty sketchy speculation.

Bharg

2010-07-15, 06:56 AM

He looks like a manly viking jesus in golden power armor! Awesome...

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 06:58 AM

I'm talking power scale, not necessarily the definition of what they are. Greater Deities have "millions" of worshippers. This doesn't apply to the Emperor, who has uncounted trillions and was already beyond the need for worship before he actually started getting the worship boost in the first place.

Still doesn't explain how he gets beaten up by warbosses and betrayed by his son.

For all we know, all the worship of the emprah goes directly to the chaos gods. That's why he lied and said that there were no gods, to try to completely eliminate worship. Because fanatism and worship fuel Chaos, not the emprah.

Also, he can't teleport by himself. Or plane shift Or ressurect people. Or even heal himself. Or just wipe out the chaos hordes assaulting his palace with a word, sending his own sons to die. Really, if he's a deity, where are his deitific powers? He has some psionic powers and is good at building stuff if he has lots of time. D&D deities can instantly craft stuff.

Which book/fluff are you talking about there? One of the feral worlds that the SMs recruit from? I did mention above that the problem is different authors exalting their own pet projects, and cited the two most egregious examples of it (Ultramarines and Tau).

There was one instance in a chaos hulk. Most others were fighting rioting populations in several instances. So I cant really seem them being favoritism.

Oh, and you can see the quote in question at Lexicanum. I'd copy it out of the book myself, but why bother when I can just link to somebody else's typing (http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor)? :smallsmile:

Emperor is overpoweredly broken, man. Jus' roll wid' it. :smallcool:

If by "overpoweredly broken" you mean "rotting corpse betrayed by his son and watching everything he worked for slowly crumble" yes I roll with it.:smallbiggrin:

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs41/f/2009/054/7/8/40_k_emperor_by_DESTRAUDO.jpg

Where's your god-emprah now?:smallamused:

Alleran

2010-07-15, 07:07 AM

He looks like a manly viking jesus in golden power armor! Awesome...
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/3f/Emperor_VS_Horus.jpg

I always liked that one. Particularly the diorama that one guy made from it about a decade or so ago now (I think I still have the White Dwarf where it was first published somewhere...). Also, the parallel to Jesus is intentional.

Still doesn't explain how he gets beaten up by warbosses and betrayed by his son.
I already mentioned how Horus betrayed him, though. The Emperor had perfect future clarity. He saw Horus betraying him. Cold hard fact. The issue was that he refused to believe it, because it was his own son.

For all we know, all the worship of the emprah goes directly to the chaos gods. That's why he lied and said that there were no gods, to try to completely eliminate worship. Because fanatism and worship fuel Chaos, not the emprah.
Well, no. That's not how the Aethyr works. The Chaos Gods are the four biggest warpstorms that draw worship, belief and emotion to them (Khorne being Rage, Nurgle Despair/Decay, Slaanesh Pleasure and Tzeentch Hope). However, if you direct belief and worship at the Emperor, then it goes to the Emperor. Not to the Chaos Gods. Yes, his Doctrine of Imperial Truth denied the existence of the divine because it causes ripples in the Warp. If he could deny the belief in gods, then they would dwindle. Unfortunately, that didn't work because Lorgar got all fanatical about it and wound up falling to Chaos.

Also, he can't teleport by himself. Or plane shift Or ressurect people. Or even heal himself. Or just wipe out the chaos hordes assaulting his palace with a word, sending his own sons to die. Really, if he's a deity, where are his deitific powers? He has some psionic powers and is good at building stuff if he has lots of time. D&D deities can instantly craft stuff.
Teleport to where? He has to maintain his vigil over the Golden Throne. He can teleport through the Warp if necessary via his power, but if he leaves the Throne, then Terra has daemons attack.

Plane Shift to where? There's only one other plane (the Warp), and he already exists on that one anyway.

Resurrect people? Saint Celestine. That's his power working through her there. He stripped Draco down as well, then put him back together again.

Wipe out the Chaos hordes? He was busy at the time, as I recall. Partly with the Webway, partly with hitting back at the Chaos Gods over their attempt to block his future sight (the attempt didn't work, IIRC, though I haven't read the Heresy books in a while), and trying to avoid having to kill his most beloved son. He only took that option when it was the only path left to him. He knew that it would happen. He knew what he would have to do.

If by "overpoweredly broken" you mean "rotting corpse betrayed by his son and watching everything he worked for slowly crumble" yes I roll with it.
Well, whether it's actually going to crumble or not is still unsure. I don't think the timeline is getting advanced anytime soon. :smallwink:

(Also... HERESY!)

Where's your god-emprah now?
Directing the Imperium with the force of his Will. Who needs STR, DEX and CON when reality is your canvas and your Mind and Will the paint and brush? :smallbiggrin:

Bharg

2010-07-15, 07:15 AM

Anyone there who knows about Ork technology and the Brain Boyz?

Alleran

2010-07-15, 07:19 AM

Anyone there who knows about Ork technology and the Brain Boyz?
Ork technology works because the Orks have a gestalt psychic consciousness that imprints itself on the Warp. Some Orks are able to grasp and sort of manipulate that psychic energy into the resultant effects. Similarly, the mass belief of that consciousness also results in effects in the material world. That's why Ork buggies go faster when they're red. The Orks collectively believe that red goez fasta! (and, of course, it does, and you should all remember that when choosing what colour your car is and who to drag-race at traffic lights), leading to the result that red does go faster.

It's a pretty brief overview, but that's part of the basic stuff.

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 07:22 AM

Alleran

2010-07-15, 07:24 AM

Shouldn't that be "Oddboyz" for the various castes (Mekboy, Painboy, and so on)

The Brainboyz were the ancient leaders of the ork race- who, it is rumored, may have degraded into Snotlings.

Or are possibly the term the Orks use for the Old Ones.
You saw nothing! :smallwink:

Psyx

2010-07-15, 07:30 AM

An Overdeity is one who is so removed from things that he has no effects on the world, only showing up once every eon or two to interact with the greatest of gods... if they're lucky. :smallconfused:

... In a single crystal sphere. The galaxy is a little larger.

I must point out in the homebrew section there was a recent atempt to make 40K d20 jut the other week.

Why on earth not just buy DH? It's not like d20 is GOOD or anything!

Space Marines are supposed to be mankind's ultimate warriors, and 40k does 'downpower' them to make them a usable army. They are supposed to be considerably more effective than their tabletop counterparts, and one of them should indeed result in a TPK.

Really, if he's a deity, where are his deitific powers?

Apart from creating a psionic beacon with a range of 100,000 light years? Being able to grant miracles at any place in the galaxy to saints and other gifted people? Forseeing the future of the galaxy and the rise of Slaanesh? Steering mankind's destiny for over 30,000 years?

And there's the chaos gods? They're gods, right? You'd agree? If the Emperor is just a big wuss, then why did all four of them have to gang up to defeat him, and why does the efforts of all four of them to bring him down still constantly get twarted?

And curiously, the favourite tactic of these smart guys, is often a mindless front charge.

Depends on the Chapter, of course. And to be honest; if you have the best armed, trained, dangerous troops, which create enormous shock and awe, a frontal assault is usually the best tactic to employ. It's how we use MBTs today. It's essentially how most of the greatest armies in history have employed their shock units, too. Pick the enemy unit that is viewed as undefeatable by their own side, or holding the primary objective and then crush it utterly and contemptuously, decapitating their command structure, and your foe's will to fight is utterly destroyed.
Marines are assault troops. It's what they're for. You call in Marines when everything else has failed to break a stalemate. If you want to crawl around stealthily, then you can use the Imperial Guard. EVERY battle ever fought falls into one of two categories: Manoeuvre or Attrition. Now there are some Marine Chapters that use manoeuvre warfare, but they are the finest attrition troops around, and that's the kind of battle that they are best at fighting.

One Step Two

2010-07-15, 07:54 AM

Olescamo: 40k's fluff is inconsistent. We know. We all need to take our Grim Darkness with a measure of salt, grin and bare it.

Alleran: Love the synopsis, but something someone pointed out to me which was very poigant, and more importantly relevant: 40k is a setting, as much as we love the idea of change, it won't. The Emperor could become a god, Horus might have won, but all that won't amount to anything because the game is being made to sell the way it is. Changing it would be a very very massive face-lift. Especially the Emperor becoming a god. No matter how interesting that might be.

Now, for the topic at hand:

Something to consider when you look at a stat-line in 40k in actual games terms, an imperial guards man has Strength 3, Toughness 3, and Initative 3. This represents a well trained military individual, the best that huamnity can offer for the Hammer of the Emperor.
An Eldar Guardian has Strength 3, Toughness 3, and Iniative 4, this represents the Eldar's racial speed and reflexes.

As a simple segue, Eldar are Elves in space. And a Human is as Human as can be. In DnD terms, an Elf is differentiated from humans with a +2 Dex, -2 Con.
This is of course a very, very, very, oversimplified way to derive stat differences. Now Mephiston specifically has a bunch of 6's in alot of his stats, 2 points higher than your average space marines, this could be interpreted as a +4 to things like Str, Con, Dex, etc. But dark Heresy gives a much better appropriation.

When I have a little time tomorrow (I really shouldnt be posting even now, I am a little strapped for time), I will grab my Dark Heresy Rulebook and sit down with it, the DnD 3.5 book, and my copy of Purge the Unclean Adventure suppliment, which has space marine stats in it. I'll attempt some comparative scores based on what each rule book says about certain ranks (such as what an Agility Characteristic of 45 represents, compared to Dexterity 16), and See if I can give you a more accurate portrayl. If anyone else has the books and more time on hand, by all means, take a stab. :smallbiggrin:

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 07:55 AM

Space Marines are supposed to be mankind's ultimate warriors, and 40k does 'downpower' them to make them a usable army. They are supposed to be considerably more effective than their tabletop counterparts, and one of them should indeed result in a TPK.

Adeptus custodes would like to have a word with you. They're the ones that are indeed in a completely diferent league (comparing a custodes to a marine is like comparing a marine to an humie).

Their tabletop rules are simply "your oponent deploys first, then you can knock out as many of his troops as you want".:smalltongue:

Apart from creating a psionic beacon with a range of 100,000 light years?

Needing a full world's worth of technology and daily fresh sacrifices.

Being able to grant miracles at any place in the galaxy to saints and other gifted people?

Like what? Making them die by pointy wooden sticks despite wearing power armor and having bionics? That's kinda of a lousy miracle!:smalltongue:

Forseeing the future of the galaxy and the rise of Slaanesh?
He didn't foresee as much as he bidded his time for an oportunity where humanity colapsed and then he could make himself supreme leader and pick up the pieces. Better to be Lord of Hell than be a servant in Paradise.

Otherwise why didn't he do anything before Slaanesh and mankind was divided?:smallamused:

Steering mankind's destiny for over 30,000 years?

Some would call it "Ruthlessly conquer what's left of mankind for his own profit" but yes they're pretty much the same. Except you don't need divine powers for that really.

And there's the chaos gods? They're gods, right? You'd agree? If the Emperor is just a big wuss, then why did all four of them have to gang up to defeat him, and why does the efforts of all four of them to bring him down still constantly get twarted?

Because they don't need or even want to take him down. The emprah provides an endless source of war, stagnation, conflict and scheming that keeps the chaos gods fat and happy. By forcing him to kill his son and being turned into an idol the chaos gods actualy won the chaos heresy. Chaos isn't really interested in conquest. Chaos is interested in Chaos. They just did the Horus Heresy because the emprah was awfully quiet while studying the eldar Webway.

It's like the orks capturing comissar Yarrick only for releasing him. Chaos needs constant conflict as well and the imperium is quite willing to provide it. Space marines also make great collection troops for your demonic armies once you open their eyes!:smallbiggrin:

Alleran

2010-07-15, 07:56 AM

40k is a setting, as much as we love the idea of change, it won't.
Oh, I know - I pointed out that it's unlikely that there'll ever really be a major timeline progression, because stagnation brings money to Games Workshop.

Psyx

2010-07-15, 07:57 AM

^Purge the unclean was written before Ascension, and before PCs had the option of unnatural (x2) stat modifiers and stuff. So the Space Marine stats based on PtU are going to be rather underpowered.

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 08:00 AM

Adeptus custodes would like to have a word with you. They're the ones that are indeed in a completely diferent league (comparing a custodes to a marine is like comparing a marine to an humie).

If you go by Tales of Heresy- custodes are about equal to marines of the time in physical capability. Slightly bulkier, but not stronger. They may qualify as better trained though.

The best of the present-day Custodes (going by Inquisition War) do wear power armour, and not just ceremonial armour, though.

Bharg

2010-07-15, 08:02 AM

One Step Two

2010-07-15, 08:04 AM

^Purge the unclean was written before Ascension, and before PCs had the option of unnatural (x2) stat modifiers and stuff. So the Space Marine stats based on PtU are going to be rather underpowered.

Ah yes, I recall that now, I'll keep that on hand too.

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 08:05 AM

In the Necron Codex, the Old Ones create "the green-skinned Krork" as soldiers to fight the Necrons, and in Nightbringer's description it says "Only the Krork were spared the fear of death"- a possible hint that the Krork are the Orks.

Hence, if the Brainboyz created the Ork races, and the Old Ones created the Ork races, this would imply that the Old Ones are the Brainboyz.

Though the Brainboyz could have been an intermediary between the Orks and the Old Ones, just as the Slaan were intermediaries between the Old Ones and the Lizardmen, in Warhammer Fantasy.

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 08:06 AM

If you go by Tales of Heresy- custodes are about equal to marines of the time in physical capability. Slightly bulkier, but not stronger. They may qualify as better trained though.

Yes I've heard of that version and honestly it doesn't seem very plausible (in particular that they walk around half naked).

That's because custodes are described as being the first super soldier model created by the emprah, and altough very powerfull, they were way too expensive to mass produce, so the emprah designed the "inferior" space marines as his vanguard force, keeping the custodes as his personal bodyguards

Bharg

2010-07-15, 08:10 AM

It's like the orks capturing comissar Yarrick only for releasing him. Chaos needs constant conflict as well and the imperium is quite willing to provide it. Space marines also make great collection troops for your demonic armies once you open their eyes!:smallbiggrin:

Yarrick wasn't released. He escaped. Ghazghkull just claimed that he let him go later to be able to continue fighting him. (Not a very reasonable decision for an orc that is as smart as him.)

hamishspence

2010-07-15, 08:11 AM

Yes I've heard of that version and honestly it doesn't seem very plausible

It's still the most recent version of the Custodes fluff:

Dan Abnett's Blood Games, however, provides a different version of the relationship between the Astartes and Custodes. Abnett claims that, though Custodians are slightly larger, on average, than Space Marines, their fighting skills are more or less equal. Abnett also points out that while Space Marines don their armour ritually and in the presence of their squadmates in order to focus themselves entirely on their martial calling, Custodians arm themselves alone and in silence, reflecting on the varied duties they must perform in the service of their master. As bodyguards, the Custodes not only protect the Emperor's person but also maintain scrupulous surveillance on all the Imperial factions, infiltrate the households of suspicious individuals, and enter deep cover to test the tightness of their own security net, an exercise known as a Blood Game. Furthermore, Abnett states that each Custodian's name consists of numerous components typically awarded for feats of arms; Valdor's full name, for instance, is over nine hundred components long.

Of course, it's possible that Heresy-era marines were significantly tougher and more powerful than modern ones- and that Marines have "degraded" in level of power, whereas Custodes haven't.

Bharg

2010-07-15, 08:19 AM

About the Savages fighting Space Marines. I think in a Sci Fi Universe there are more than plenty of reason why something that would make this possible. Humans on prehistoric worlds or high gravity worlds would be much stronger than normal Humans. Maybe the atmosphere is poisonous. Maybe the planet offers an other kind of ressource to craft weapons with. Something the imperium doesn't use and will not be able to use since they don't know how to make Space Marine Armor anymore. And last but not least numbers. Space Marines are very few while a prehistoric savage world could be inhabited by thousands and millions of warriors...

Killer Angel

2010-07-15, 09:24 AM

Depends on the Chapter, of course. And to be honest; if you have the best armed, trained, dangerous troops, which create enormous shock and awe, a frontal assault is usually the best tactic to employ. It's how we use MBTs today. It's essentially how most of the greatest armies in history have employed their shock units, too. Pick the enemy unit that is viewed as undefeatable by their own side, or holding the primary objective and then crush it utterly and contemptuously, decapitating their command structure, and your foe's will to fight is utterly destroyed.
Marines are assault troops. It's what they're for. You call in Marines when everything else has failed to break a stalemate. If you want to crawl around stealthily, then you can use the Imperial Guard. EVERY battle ever fought falls into one of two categories: Manoeuvre or Attrition. Now there are some Marine Chapters that use manoeuvre warfare, but they are the finest attrition troops around, and that's the kind of battle that they are best at fighting.

Leaving aside the different approach to battle, wich effectively depends on Chapter, I don't agree with your analysis.
Yes, you use your best troops to achieve the result, to conquer difficult positions, and so on, and to do so, you put them in the better starting conditions possible. A frontal assault, is absolutely the worst thing to do, especially in a world with fire weapons. A charge is GREAT from a badassery point of view and for bards/poets/propaganda, so it's often presented in fluff, but in reality, it's nearly suicidal, and even when successful, it comes at a staggering cost of some of your best troops... a thing you usually try to avoid.
There is indeed a difference between attrition and manoveur, but the best soldiers, are the best exactly because they know how to manoveur: they minimize their losses and hit hard.

Tiki Snakes

2010-07-15, 09:55 AM

Leaving aside the different approach to battle, wich effectively depends on Chapter, I don't agree with your analysis.
Yes, you use your best troops to achieve the result, to conquer difficult positions, and so on, and to do so, you put them in the better starting conditions possible. A frontal assault, is absolutely the worst thing to do, especially in a world with fire weapons. A charge is GREAT from a badassery point of view and for bards/poets/propaganda, so it's often presented in fluff, but in reality, it's nearly suicidal, and even when successful, it comes at a staggering cost of some of your best troops... a thing you usually try to avoid.
There is indeed a difference between attrition and manoveur, but the best soldiers, are the best exactly because they know how to manoveur: they minimize their losses and hit hard.

You're not wrong. Of course, the individual chapters handle the specifics differently due to their differences in ability and dogma. The Space Wolves in particular do like to get up close and personal, but the Blood Angels especially have some awesome shock troop stuff going on, with the practically unstoppable (Frenzied Berserker style) Death Companies and their airborne jet-pack assault guys.
Direct brutal assaults are certainly what those two are for.

The manouvering part comes when you hold back on that assault until the most appropriate time, and smash them into the foe at the most beneficial point.

Deadmeat.GW

2010-07-15, 11:59 AM

Hum, if we are talking about the marines getting killed by 'sticks' by 'primitives', does it by chance happen to be from the Space Wolf novels?

Where marines got dragged down by numbers (well, Blood Claws, young, inexperienced marines with a tendency to brawl instead of think...) and...some of these 'sticks' were in fact magical and able to bite straight through armour to the extreme surprise of Ragnar Blackmane...

So these 'sticks' might not be just that.

There are some stories about humans killing marines with basic weapons but it ussually involves massive amounts of hits or getting very, very lucky and hitting a joint, an eye-piece or the a marine who took his helmet off for unknown reasons (damaged, as shown in some stories, or access to better sensory perception like in the case of Space Wolves who do not even do it all the time as they are not stupid when they are in a massive battle).

Btw...Spave Wolves also sneak around if needed and they are infamous for the 'headlong charge at things'.
Heck, Space Wolves and indeed most chapters use camouflage when fighting enemies that are equiped well enough that a blitzkrieg style war is not going to break things.
It just is that most of the time they are clearly visible as a obvious and potent reminder who is boss in the neighbourhood.

Also, keep in mind that camouflage is not used against certain enemies as it is utterly pointless, demons for instance 'see' souls, not the fleshy blobs we carry those souls around in and the rest of the materium as the standard real world is called is a haze of shades of grey to them.
Utterly and totally annoying to use for precision.

Think of it kinda like the Predator vision modes, unless you have the right mode on things are rather indistinct and blend into each other.

Psyx

2010-07-15, 12:27 PM

A frontal assault, is absolutely the worst thing to do, especially in a world with fire weapons. A charge is GREAT from a badassery point of view and for bards/poets/propaganda, so it's often presented in fluff, but in reality, it's nearly suicidal, and even when successful, it comes at a staggering cost of some of your best troops... a thing you usually try to avoid.
There is indeed a difference between attrition and manoveur, but the best soldiers, are the best exactly because they know how to manoveur: they minimize their losses and hit hard.

It's not the worst thing to do when your armour is all but impervious to your foe's firepower, and your troops are insanely tough.

I'm not talking about tactics when discussing attrite/manoeuvre: It's a strategy thing. Section manoeuvre is a rather different thing to manoeuvre warfare. Of course Space Marines would understand fire and manoeuvre tactics.

By our own standards, an assault requires at least 3:1 numerical superiority to succeed [Warsaw Pact likes 7:1...]. Use Space Marines and that might very well completely reverse that ratio. That's what they are for: Assault and shock. Got a siege to break? Send in Marines. Impervious castle? Send in Marines. Boarding action? Send in Marines.

From quite a lot of the fluff, their strategy is often essentially a blitzkrieg: Find a weak point and hit it with everything you have, breakthrough, demoralise and make a gap for the regular forces to breakthrough. That's an assault. It doesn't have to mean charge in daylight over a minefield. Assaults aren't stupid or strategically dumb; they are a necessity. Blitzkrieg works spectacularly well if you have the mobility, firepower and shock units to achieve it. And that's what marines are. Did blitzkrieg tactics come at a massive cost in personnel in WW2? Not when carried out effectively.

Not every battle comes down to cunning moves and flanking. Sometimes there is no flank. Sometimes you need a really big hammer. That's what Marines are.

Killer Angel

2010-07-15, 03:22 PM

Marines and blitzkrieg

Probably we're speaking the same thing, without understanding.
Blitzkrieg was specifically the art of move your forces, find the weak point, and concentrate your assault, havin gained the 3:1 in your favor, in that specific point. Shock and Awe. The Ghost division, etc.
Of course, there's a HUGE difference between a direct assault ala blitzkrieg/WWII, and a mass frontal charge ala WWI.
In D&D there are specific kind of demons breed to frontal charge and to suffer carnage, who cares for them?
SM are builded for the strong assault type, but the fluff sometime shows them more ala "bayonets! out of the trenches... CHARGE"!
and they can be heavy armoured, but chaos SM arent precisely equipped with bows (see the codec example of the soul grinder)

Meta

2010-07-15, 03:48 PM

Yeah, but fluff in WH40K is pretty contradictory between the various sources, so a lot of it, while good to read, it's unreliable.
Take the SM: they have access to thousands of years of military knowledge, storing data regardin fought battles. They are told to be masters in tactic and strategy.
And curiously, the favourite tactic of these smart guys, is often a mindless front charge.
Even if you don't consider DoW videos as an official source, we have the chaos codex depicting such a charge by a SM squad against a Soul Grinder. Guess who won?
At what point, the fluff is a valid source?

In most of cases, we have stories. Depicted to exalt one side.
Is the same dead end we ancounter when we trust too much D&D fluff (for example, Salvatore's books, are official fluff?).
If we consider EVERY PRINTED WORD, the absolute truth, we won't escape alive from the discussion... :smallwink:

I literally just read the entire 5th edition codex and there are no stories about mindlessly charging except one and they lose that charge and the force commander has to blow himself up to salvage the retreat.
The blood angels and some space wolves have a rep for being bloodthirsty but really you're exaggerating evidence to fit your claim.

SM's are usually on the DEFENSIVE, since their opponents rarely have home planets that are easy to storm.

EDIT: Also, The Emperor absolutely knew of Horus's betrayal. It's in one of the elder codices (3rd i think) because Eldrad Ulthran warned him and he dismissed it then too. This is pretty much the biggest bone the Eldar have to pick with the Imperium, because they were doing so well and it went wrong.

And the emperor has still never lost to a warboss. He beat the physically most powerful primarch (who later broke the back of of another) with his bare hands. In the rulebooks (the neutral side if you will) they paint the age of Emperor as a golden age cuz that makes a great story. He's a tragic hero, he's SUPPOSED to be pretty much perfect except for that fatal flaw.
AKA trusting Horus

Oslecamo

2010-07-15, 04:01 PM

I literally just read the entire 5th edition codex and there are no stories about mindlessly charging except one and they lose that charge and the force commander has to blow himself up to salvage the retreat.
The blood angels have a rep for being bloodthirsty but really you're exaggerating evidence to fit your claim.

Not really, the 5e codex is a little better at that, but the other codexes have plenty of stories of mouthfoaming charges (cough black templars cough).

40K 5th edition rulebook has the story of "The Beheading", where the grand master of assassins kills the high lords of terra, and a force of space marines goes to hunt him down (instead of, say, just nuking the country where he was hiding). Only one marine lives to tell the tale.

SM's are usually on the DEFENSIVE, since their opponents rarely have home planets that are easy to storm.

Well in the Imperial Armor codexes it's the IG doing most of the job and the marines are used for sneak attacks at weak points, since as already mentioned they're too expensive to risk on the meatgrinder.

For obscure reasons, the enemy planet is always immune to orbital bombardment, but will happily let you land troops en mass for massive ground battles.:smalltongue:

And the emperor has still never lost to a warboss. He beat the physically most powerful primarch (who later broke the back of of another) with his bare hands.

The other primarch was with his bare hands as well. And had considerably less training. And didn't have psionic powers or bionics.

In the rulebooks (the neutral side if you will) they paint the age of Emperor as a golden age cuz that makes a great story. He's a tragic hero, he's SUPPOSED to be pretty much perfect except for that fatal flaw.
AKA trusting Horus

It's not trusting Horus that's strange. It's not trusting Magnus, Eldrad and everybody else who tried to warn him.

Also, emprah's agenda of KILL KILL KILL may have not been the best decision.

Meta

2010-07-15, 05:53 PM

Not really, the 5e codex is a little better at that, but the other codexes have plenty of stories of mouthfoaming charges (cough black templars cough).

40K 5th edition rulebook has the story of "The Beheading", where the grand master of assassins kills the high lords of terra, and a force of space marines goes to hunt him down (instead of, say, just nuking the country where he was hiding). Only one marine lives to tell the tale.

Well in the Imperial Armor codexes it's the IG doing most of the job and the marines are used for sneak attacks at weak points, since as already mentioned they're too expensive to risk on the meatgrinder.

For obscure reasons, the enemy planet is always immune to orbital bombardment, but will happily let you land troops en mass for massive ground battles.:smalltongue:

The other primarch was with his bare hands as well. And had considerably less training. And didn't have psionic powers or bionics.

It's not trusting Horus that's strange. It's not trusting Magnus, Eldrad and everybody else who tried to warn him.

Also, emprah's agenda of KILL KILL KILL may have not been the best decision.

I would say the decision to not nuke a continent is showing restraint rather than a need for mouth-foaming charges. And yes the blood angels, black templar, and space wolves, are more aggressive than probably healthy, but they're not mindless.

If the emperor had listened to Magnus and Eldrad it wouldnt be as a good story would it. :smallsmile:

He needs that flaw to set up the dark age to come.

And The SW primarch lived on fenris which is enough training in itself and he was long considered the physically strongest aside from Horus.

And the emperor hardly had a Kill Everything policy. That doesn't make sense. The CURRENT Imperium policy can be pretty close to 'kill everything' but it's been a pretty big decline for humanity, and that's kind of the point. It was a golden age with the emperor not a bloodbath.

Also, the 5e codex is pretty blunt at saying that Ultramarines are basically feudal knights with their set up in Ultramar and all. Basically they have a little slice of what the rest of the galaxy wishes it could have. I really wish they'd have included a story from a regular person's perspective but the one about Roboute probably counts since he did some amazing stuff before the Emperor even found him. Sounds like a pretty good person to let structure the socio-economic plans for a bunch of star systems.

It LOOKS like the citizens there are pretty grateful for the SMs. Though I admit it's kinda pointless to argue how a fictional and unnamed person feels

Ravens_cry

2010-07-15, 06:16 PM

It's not trusting Horus that's strange. It's not trusting Magnus, Eldrad and everybody else who tried to warn him.

Ever hear the phrase, "blood is thicker then water"?
Familial ties can trump common sense.

Bharg

2010-07-15, 06:21 PM

It had nothing to do with trusting these peopl since he knew what was going to happen anyway.

terrashand

2010-07-15, 07:11 PM

Ok Space Marine in 3.X My group have already pretty much done this.

Race:
Super human
medium
30 ft.
powerful build
+6 to str, dex, con
+4 to int, wis, cha
immune to fear, natural poisons, and death from massive damage, (and other things to if I remember right...resistance to cold, heat and such can't remember the values)
+4 to will
+2 to reflex
+6 to fort

Bolter: heavy repeating crossbow. explosive, distance, and self-loading (pulled from a specific weapon)

Bolt pistol: hand crossbow with the same as above.

Power Armor: Adamantium full plate +5 (crap can't find it...in one of the FR regional sourcebooks there is a set of armor that enhances str. something to do with an exoskeleton that uses steam power)

SM Scouts: Fighter 5/Scout 2

SM Assault: Fighter 5/Scout 2/Barb 2

SM Devastor: Fighter 5/Scout 2/Barb 2/Ranger 2 (Bow)

SM Tactical: Fighter 7/Scout 2/Barb 2/Ranger 2 (Bow)

I will see if I can find that text file I made for it. A group of 3 or 4 of us worked on this. 2 of us have played both games since they were each made.

btw the Emp. didn't lose to the Warboss. They were in the chaos of melee and the warboss had an unblockable swing on the emp from his side. Horus stepped in and saved him.

Meph should be just about epic level. maybe 21st.

Killer Angel

2010-07-16, 02:03 AM

The blood angels and some space wolves have a rep for being bloodthirsty but really you're exaggerating evidence to fit your claim.

Don't we all do this, when we're discussing something? I like more to see it as "Citing evidences that support my case". :smalltongue:
But anyway, point taken: It don't always happen and to pretend so, it's exaggerating. But sometime yes, and not so rarely to be considered an unfortunate exception.
But in the end, who cares? After all, it makes sense: propaganda's work is also to turn bad mistakes in heroic acts.

And the emperor has still never lost to a warboss.

As Hamishspence pointed out, it's cited in the Black Legion Index Astartes.
This is an example of the contradiction between fluff I was talking.
Both are official, but do we take for good Imperial fluff (Emperor is God), or his enemies' (Emperor beaten by warboss)?
Both have good reason to conceal the truth... (Unless we're speaking of CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. In that case, he's badassitude made flesh)

Meta

2010-07-16, 09:20 PM

Don't we all do this, when we're discussing something? I like more to see it as "Citing evidences that support my case". :smalltongue:
But anyway, point taken: It don't always happen and to pretend so, it's exaggerating. But sometime yes, and not so rarely to be considered an unfortunate exception.
But in the end, who cares? After all, it makes sense: propaganda's work is also to turn bad mistakes in heroic acts.

As Hamishspence pointed out, it's cited in the Black Legion Index Astartes.
This is an example of the contradiction between fluff I was talking.
Both are official, but do we take for good Imperial fluff (Emperor is God), or his enemies' (Emperor beaten by warboss)?
Both have good reason to conceal the truth... (Unless we're speaking of CAIN, HERO OF THE IMPERIUM. In that case, he's badassitude made flesh)

As was stated, the Emperor never lost, he MAY have taken a hit by the warboss had Horus not stepped in.

That's not the same as losing, its saying that a warboss may have hit the emperor. ONCE, no way he would have died even IF that blow went unblocked

If horus couldn't kill the emperor in 1 shot I know random warboss couldn't.

GW hasn't statted out the emperor but pretty sure he has more than 1 wound and eternal warrior :smallwink: