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Eldan
2010-07-14, 06:18 AM
Recently, while digging through old AD&D books (for adventure ideas and fluff, I have no idea how the rules actually work), I stumbled upon the idea of spheres for cleric spell access. Since I didn't understand the term, I looked it up online.

Basically, for the uninitiated:
An AD&D cleric doesn't get every spell on the cleric list + his domain spells. Instead, every spell is in a sphere, which is similar to 3.Xs domains. The cleric only gets spells from his spheres.
So, if you where a cleric of Pelor, there would be a Sun sphere, a Healing Sphere and a Good sphere, and you would only get spells from those.


Would it be a good idea to bring that idea back to 3.X as a house rule? It would especially mean that non-war clerics aren't overpowered divine killing machines, and that all clerics would be more limited.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 07:29 AM
It's a good idea if you use the list of 3e domains as a jumping-off point to end up with lots of spheres as you suggested, rather than directly translating the system 2e had (since having only a handful of spheres doesn't change much), but the sheer number of spells is what usually holds back any attempt to do it. Unless you want to just say "Fire sphere gets all fire-descriptor spells, Plant sphere gets all plant-related spells," and so on, which is kind of a cop-out and either doesn't really allow for either some diversity within a sphere (getting all [Good] spells isn't too useful) or doesn't really limit them enough (what qualifies as a "war spell"?).

I've actually been working on such a project myself, because I'm going through all the 3e spells anyway for a revision project of mine and figured I might as well do spheres while I'm at it, but I haven't had a chance to work on it in a while and I'm still in the E's. I can attest to how time-consuming and complex it can be. It would be an interesting project for the Playground, though; give everyone a sphere, have each person go through several books and pick the spells that would go with their sphere, and you could cut down the time and effort drastically.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 07:32 AM
True, true.

I actually looked over the core cleric spells and domains only, at it seems there are only about two or three spells per level and domain in there. That's not enough, I'd think.

On the other hand, going through Spell Compendium is monstrous.

Perhaps a few people can work together on this? Everyone takes one letter, or so?

Edit: Note to self: finish reading posts before answering. Really.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 08:02 AM
True, true.

I actually looked over the core cleric spells and domains only, at it seems there are only about two or three spells per level and domain in there. That's not enough, I'd think.

Yeah, you really have to use 3 or 4 books before using this system of spheres becomes worth the effort. If you're just using the PHB, something like 2e's three or four major spheres and a few minor spheres would work better.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 08:05 AM
I usually use "all books" in my games anyway, so that should be okay.


So, anyone else up for this project?

Caliphbubba
2010-07-14, 08:12 AM
Are you going to do away with spontaneous cure/inflict under this system?

Are clerics going to get access to all their deities domains as spheres or will they have to choose 2?

Are you planning on doing a "Universal" Sphere? A sphere that includes a subset of spells that all gods can grant. I think in AD&D they called it the "All" sphere. if so, what types of spells would you include?

Eldan
2010-07-14, 08:19 AM
I'm still thinking this through, really.

Basically; I can't think of any spell that would have to be universal. Already not every cleric can cure, and why should they?

Now, something like spontaneous curing would make a nice domain power, however. Perhaps every domain could have another domain power, to balance the loss of versatility a little? Healing clerics could heal spontaneously.

Caliphbubba
2010-07-14, 08:40 AM
An added domain power could be pretty cool.

The more I think about this, the more questions pop up.

I guess I'm wondering at the intended power level you want clerics to end up at by doing a change like this. Because it seems like they'd be roughly equal to a Favored Soul if all Clerics were limited to 2-3 spheres, if you're going for a more straight domain to sphere conversion.

drakir_nosslin
2010-07-14, 08:41 AM
I think that Fax Celestis has been working on bringing back spheres with the d20r system. You should check it out.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 08:47 AM
Yeah... I dislike d20r for several other reasons, though.

nedz
2010-07-14, 09:19 AM
I've been thinking about doing this for a while; what has put me off is the enormity of the task. Maybe I'll do it next week :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2010-07-14, 09:29 AM
Now, something like spontaneous curing would make a nice domain power, however. Perhaps every domain could have another domain power, to balance the loss of versatility a little? Healing clerics could heal spontaneously.If the cleric spell list is limited to 2-3 spells of each level, then they're most likely spontaneous casters already.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 10:35 AM
Another question is whether you'd want to keep the major/minor access feature (minor access grants 1/2 the spells in the sphere, which in 3e would mean you can cast up to 4th level spells from that sphere). It helps differentiate gods a bit (several gods could have the Death sphere, for instance, but perhaps only the God of Death grants major access) and would open up the possibility of having two sphere powers, one major and one minor.


Now, something like spontaneous curing would make a nice domain power, however. Perhaps every domain could have another domain power, to balance the loss of versatility a little? Healing clerics could heal spontaneously.

The major/minor access feature would be a good way to do this. A cleric with minor access to Healing would be one who worships a god with the Healing sphere who happens to pick up Healing, so they'd get a minor benefit, whereas someone who picks up major access to Healing would be a dedicated healer and so would get spontaneous healing (or something like that).


If the cleric spell list is limited to 2-3 spells of each level, then they're most likely spontaneous casters already.

I don't see why it would be that limited; I thought the idea was to take the entire cleric list over all books and apply the sphere system to that. That's the sort of scenario where limiting the spell list would make more sense.

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 10:41 AM
So would you be killing of domains totally? I do like major and minor spheres though.. Gain an added power from each? Like dice said, where you major healing could still cast spontaneous.. But how many spells do they get per level? And do spells come from only a sphere or two they select? Or any sphere that their god can grant access to?

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 10:55 AM
So would you be killing of domains totally? I do like major and minor spheres though.. Gain an added power from each? Like dice said, where you major healing could still cast spontaneous.. But how many spells do they get per level? And do spells come from only a sphere or two they select? Or any sphere that their god can grant access to?

All spheres might be too much; the main benefit is focusing the spell list, and if a cleric of Obad Hai, for instance, has access to all of his seven or more spheres and most of the other gods have four or five, that sort of defeats the purpose. Personally, if we're using the major/minor system, I'd give each cleric a major and a minor sphere to start with, then when they get access to 5th level spells (and thus get fewer spells known due to having only 1 sphere with major access) they could add a second minor sphere.

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 10:59 AM
Ok.. that makes some sense. But once they gain access to the second sphere wouldn't they know all of its spells since it's a minor sphere and their level lets them know all their minor spells? I mean, that's a lot of spells a once to give someone.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-14, 11:18 AM
Yeah... I dislike d20r for several other reasons, though.

Like what? I like making things people like, so I generally want to hear about people's gripes with the system so I can address them.

And anyway, the d20r cleric class is pretty much usable in a regular 3.5 game, if you just remove the Prowess line and give it the old skill list.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 11:19 AM
A suggestion for an organization:


Major Spheres:
Every god has two major spheres which define them. Clerics can cast spells from the god's major spheres at the indicated level. Furthermore, they can choose one of these two spheres and gain the greater sphere ability of that sphere.


Minor spheres:
Furthermore, every god has a number of minor spheres depending on the god's power level. A cleric can select three (?) minor spheres belonging to their god. They can cast spells from those selected spheres at one level higher than indicated in the sphere (so a 3rd level spell would take a 4th level slot). Furthermore, the cleric gains the lesser sphere ability of the selected spheres, as well as his non-selected major sphere.


I decided to do it this way because it seemed strange to me that a cleric would cast minor sphere spells normally until level 7, at which point they no longer would get any new ones. This way, the minor sphere spells are always around, but weaker than major sphere spells.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 11:22 AM
Fax: I must admit I've not read a lot of d20r, and I can't comment on everything, but from what I've seen, my problem with it is quite simple:

There are a lot of abilities that are useful in combat, but very little utility, at least in the classes I've read. The sorcerer can fight, but not much else, and pretty much the same for the Cartomancer. I, on the other hand, prefer characters to be as versatile as possible, with a lot of trickery and abilities out of combat, and at least the classes I've read didn't have much of that.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-14, 11:29 AM
Fax: I must admit I've not read a lot of d20r, and I can't comment on everything, but from what I've seen, my problem with it is quite simple:

There are a lot of abilities that are useful in combat, but very little utility, at least in the classes I've read. The sorcerer can fight, but not much else, and pretty much the same for the Cartomancer. I, on the other hand, prefer characters to be as versatile as possible, with a lot of trickery and abilities out of combat, and at least the classes I've read didn't have much of that.

It's funny you should mention those two classes specifically: they're actually on the chopping block for 'initial release' as they have some intrinsic problems that I want to address. I'm probably going to be bumping them back to a second release (sort of like the PHB-II, I suppose).

gallagher
2010-07-14, 11:40 AM
It's funny you should mention those two classes specifically: they're actually on the chopping block for 'initial release' as they have some intrinsic problems that I want to address. I'm probably going to be bumping them back to a second release (sort of like the PHB-II, I suppose).

is the dreadnaught going into the initial release?

anyway, i think that as far as spheres go, a big part of being a cleric is still healing and dealing with undead. i think that nomatter what, a cleric should be able to spontaneously cast heal/inflict spells.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 11:43 AM
And I ask: why?
As a cleric of Obad-Hai, you majored in trees and herbs, with a minor in fire and weather patterns. Why should you be able to heal? Wizards can't spontaneously cast fireball, and that's just as iconic.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 11:58 AM
Ok.. that makes some sense. But once they gain access to the second sphere wouldn't they know all of its spells since it's a minor sphere and their level lets them know all their minor spells? I mean, that's a lot of spells a once to give someone.

They would; the increased number of lower-level spells compensates for having fewer higher-level spells available. Like I said, it's only what I'd do; it's not the only possibility.


A suggestion for an organization:


Major Spheres:
Every god has two major spheres which define them. Clerics can cast spells from the god's major spheres at the indicated level. Furthermore, they can choose one of these two spheres and gain the greater sphere ability of that sphere.


Minor spheres:
Furthermore, every god has a number of minor spheres depending on the god's power level. A cleric can select three (?) minor spheres belonging to their god. They can cast spells from those selected spheres at one level higher than indicated in the sphere (so a 3rd level spell would take a 4th level slot). Furthermore, the cleric gains the lesser sphere ability of the selected spheres, as well as his non-selected major sphere.


I decided to do it this way because it seemed strange to me that a cleric would cast minor sphere spells normally until level 7, at which point they no longer would get any new ones. This way, the minor sphere spells are always around, but weaker than major sphere spells.

The reasons I like the minor spheres stopping at a certain level are (A) that's how AD&D did it (just putting that out there :smallwink:) and (B) it makes more sense from a portfolio standpoint, since the God of Healing would probably be much better than others at granting healing and there would be some healing powers that other Healing gods just can't grant, as opposed to being able to use all but 9th level spells at a spell level cost.


anyway, i think that as far as spheres go, a big part of being a cleric is still healing and dealing with undead. i think that nomatter what, a cleric should be able to spontaneously cast heal/inflict spells.

Yes, the cleric was almost defined by turning undead and healing. The priest, however, the class in 2e of which the cleric was a sub-class, was not. :smallcool:

With the way spheres and sub-classes worked, if you took spheres that let you cast anti-undead spells, hit things with maces, and heal, you were a cleric and gained some other minor benefits. (And, by the way, there was no spontaneous casting in AD&D, so always needing to be able to spontaneously cast isn't a big deal, whether you're spontaneously healing or doing something else.) If you took spheres that let you grow plants, control the weather, and manipulate animals, you were a druid and gained some other minor benefits. There are far more archetypes to cover with a sphere system than just the undead-smiting team-healing mace-wielding warpriest.

mrcarter11
2010-07-14, 12:02 PM
Well thank you dice for clearing that up.. I now like this idea more.. Perhaps we can move forward with it? Like decide as to how many spells per level per sphere. How many spheres, some say two or three and some want more. Should we grant a power to them for minor spheres or only major spheres?
Lots of questions to making this.. But I do think it would work a lot better.

gallagher
2010-07-14, 12:02 PM
And I ask: why?
As a cleric of Obad-Hai, you majored in trees and herbs, with a minor in fire and weather patterns. Why should you be able to heal? Wizards can't spontaneously cast fireball, and that's just as iconic. well, since you are trying to bring back the old spheres to 3.X, you are changing a spell list, and also removing a major class feature. most parties, especially low level ones, have a cleric for the healing (everything else is a great plus, but someone needs to at least be able to use a wand of Cure (X) wounds)

what if cure spells were also not on the spell list, but a good cleric can spontaneously do a cure spell and evil can spontaneously inflict? that would still prevent a good cleric from preparing an inflict spell, and vice versa

Eldan
2010-07-14, 01:15 PM
One of my main problems with that is that cosmologically, positive and negative energy are neutral forces. That's a fluff problem, though.

Really, though: if you need a party healer, can't your cleric just take a god of healing? I think they should be more versatile than that. I've seen parties of four rogues working well, not everyone needs a healbot.

Caliphbubba
2010-07-14, 01:35 PM
Any thoughts on where you want the Cleric to end up power-wise in the Tier system?

I mean I think we can all agree that using this varient will be a nerf. I think it would be useful to have a power range in mind when we talk about granting sphere powers et al.

At the moment if you are restricted to having one Major, and one Minor sphere that you still have to memorize spells for, I'd have to say you're probably weaker than a Favored Soul. Favored Souls sit at what, Tier 2?

Eldan
2010-07-14, 01:42 PM
Well, aiming at 2 or 3 is probably the best idea. Favoured souls are tier 3.

And how weak they are really depends on how many spheres they get. If they get only one each, they'll only have a handful of spells to memorize. I don't think that's enough.


As for the level 4 vs. spell level cost thing: what I dislike about the whole level 4 max aspect is that a low level cleric is unaffected by it. And quite a few people play low-level only.

Caliphbubba
2010-07-14, 01:51 PM
Well, aiming at 2 or 3 is probably the best idea. Favoured souls are tier 3.

And how weak they are really depends on how many spheres they get. If they get only one each, they'll only have a handful of spells to memorize. I don't think that's enough.


As for the level 4 vs. spell level cost thing: what I dislike about the whole level 4 max aspect is that a low level cleric is unaffected by it. And quite a few people play low-level only.

Ok that sounds good to me as far as power level, and of course you are correct when you say it depends on many spheres they get. In AD&D Classic Clerics got quite a few spheres. The Specialty Priests that came out later often had wide difference in the number and quality of Spheres they had access to.
I seem to remember that having minor access to the Astral Sphere was useless, since the lowest level Astral Spell was 5th level. lol

In my opinion the first thing to do would be to decide how many spheres the cleric will end up having access to.
As a compromise with what you said a few posts ago, how about letting them Meta-magic Minor Access Spheres into higher spell slots for "free". Similar to what a Beguiler gets (different thematic metas, of course).

Hawriel
2010-07-14, 03:35 PM
Bringing back the Spheres is somthing Ive always wanted to do. having a cleric character have instant access to all divine spells is way to OP. Yes I know druids have their own spells, but then agian the druid was, and still should be, an alternat form of cleric.

Not only do I think it would work better for the system in general it fits with how I think divine magic should work. Back in AD&D we let clerics cast any spell they wanted. No memorizing. They where not exactly a spell powerhouse and its damned silly of a cleric is asking their god for preset spells for a day. A cleric does not 'cast spells', they pray to their god(s). Every 'spell' should be seen as a prayer.

For context use only I refer to Moses and the twelve aposltes. They did not prepare spells they asked for gods assistance when they needed it.

Now D&D's god system uses polytheistic god system. For lack of better phrasing. This is in the style of greek, egyptian, and norse myth. Every god had their domanes. Some had very few some and many, and they often shared. Ethina and Aries shared war for example.

For the past year my group is trying to enforce the prepared spells for clerics agian. 3rd ed's way of doing clerics makes this mandatory just to run a fair game.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 03:45 PM
Okay.

Two questions to answer then:

How many spheres should a cleric get?
How many spells of each level should a sphere have?


I think that a total of about a dozen spells known per level should be decent: gives some choice, but isn't too strong compared with spontaneous casters, since they still need to prepare.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 04:06 PM
As for the level 4 vs. spell level cost thing: what I dislike about the whole level 4 max aspect is that a low level cleric is unaffected by it. And quite a few people play low-level only.

Actually, I see that as a feature, not a bug, which may be where we differ. As I see it, the PHB cleric is mostly fine at low levels; you have few enough spells per day that you're likely to prepare spells along a theme anyway, and turn undead is nice but neither a major anti-undead weapon nor a divine-feat-fueling powerhouse. Higher levels are when the cleric starts to have issues: buffing itself with many, possibly thematically-unrelated spells; grabbing spells of many types from many sources every day to handle every possible contingency; and so forth. Basically, it's like the wizard problem (weaker than average at lower levels, way above at higher levels), so a solution which leaves the low levels pretty much alone and eschews higher level options in favor of more lower-level ones is a good idea in my book.

In fact, if we go with Hawriel's idea to have many spheres with fewer spells each but let the cleric cast spontaneously from among all those he can access, that might actually improve the lower-level cleric while further restricting the higher-level cleric, nicely flattening out the power curve. Not sure yet if that's a good idea, though, as we'd really have to have the spheres mostly finalized before looking at the casting progression.


Okay.

Two questions to answer then:

How many spheres should a cleric get?
How many spells of each level should a sphere have?


I think that a total of about a dozen spells known per level should be decent: gives some choice, but isn't too strong compared with spontaneous casters, since they still need to prepare.

Putting aside the issue of whether we go with X major/Y minor spheres and how that works exactly, I think two to three spheres would be best. It's enough so that you can be a cleric of Pelor, say, rather than being narrowed down to a fire-throwing cleric or a healbot, but not enough so that all clerics of the same god have precisely the same list.

As to number of spells in a sphere...well, if we were to take all of the good existing 3e domains (i.e. those that aren't overly-specific like Scalykind or Hunger), turn those into spheres, and allocate cleric and druid spells to those, that means about 1500 spells in about 40 broad spheres (out of 130 possible spheres), which works out to ~37 spells per sphere or on average 4 spells per level. That means a cleric with three spheres would hit your 12/level target, so I'd say around 4 per level per sphere is a good goal.

lsfreak
2010-07-14, 04:31 PM
While this is smaller-scale than it looks like you're going for, something to look at might also be this (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?PHPSESSID=a2g1a8hc0k39g9uteab1862t05&topic=2096.msg60696#msg60696).

Hawriel
2010-07-14, 04:34 PM
A sphere is a domane. So like the Domanes of third ed they have a sentral theme. Like The domane of fire. 2nd ed didnt have a sphere of fire, however its no problem making one.

Here are some spheres in 2nd ed.
Some spells are in more than one sphere.

All
These spells are not of a particular sphere. Any god may or can grant these spells. Example: Bless

Animal
These spells effect animals. Nature and agriculture gods for example.
Charm animal

Divination
Gods who favor wisdom, knowledge, or trueth.
Spells like Detect X or scrying.

Weather
Again Nature gods.
Call lightning

Elemental
spells deriving from the four elements. A war god may have this for its distructive capacity. Or a nature god. This sphere can, I think it should, be eather split up into its four elements or restricted to what the god does. For example a god of lakes and rivers would have the water aspect only. A storm god would have air and water.

Spells such as wind wall and flame strike would fit.

Sence gods use multaple sheres you shouldnt worry about restricting some spells to only one or two of them. Flame strike can be an elemental spell as well as a combat/war spell.


Baiscily if it fits with a theme stick it in there. Some sheres have more total spells than others. Some spheres have more spells in a particular level than others. One of the reasons I never devided 3rd end into spheres is because I wold have to sit down and do it. Then convice my group to use it.

I cant find my 2nd ed book for gods but if memory serves I think most gods had 3 to 4 sheres. If you think a 5th or even a 6th would fit eather make the hard call and cut it, or limit it.

A nature god could have Weather, Animal, Plant, Sun, Summoning (animals only) and ALL. Thats six spheres. however the summoning is limited to natural animals, and the all sphere is rather small.

A god of Justice could have Sun, Divination, and Combat. Not as many as the nature god although a justice god is a little more focused.

Tyrmatt
2010-07-14, 05:02 PM
This sounds like a nifty way to turn clerics from the game breaking titans to a powerful party member who doesn't outshine everyone else totally.

I shall watch this thread with interest. And also go check Fax's stuff. He's clearly been busy since I last looked.

Eldan
2010-07-14, 05:07 PM
How about 2 major and 2 minor spheres? That seems balanced, I think, if there's the right number of spells per spheres.

Spontaneous casting: well, how about you can spontaneously cast your major spheres, but have to prepare your minor ones?


Anyway, perhaps we should really start looking at distributing spells on spheres first, then check how many there are per sphere.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 06:29 PM
How about 2 major and 2 minor spheres? That seems balanced, I think, if there's the right number of spells per spheres.

Spontaneous casting: well, how about you can spontaneously cast your major spheres, but have to prepare your minor ones?

Agreed on both counts; the half-prepared/half-spontaneous split will nicely reinforce the theme.


Anyway, perhaps we should really start looking at distributing spells on spheres first, then check how many there are per sphere.

And first first, we should decide which spheres to use. I'm all in favor of simply choosing from among the domains, as mentioned before, because they cover a lot of ground and we won't have to worry about coming up with a sphere no spells will really fit in or vice versa.

There's a list of all the 3e domains at the D&D database (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/Index_LevDom.php) (though I think one or two of those are unofficial material from the WotC devs). Here's a list of the 45 that I think would make good spheres:
Air
Animal
Balance
Chaos
Charm
City
Cold
Community
Corruption
Creation
Darkness
Death
Destiny
Destruction
Dragon
Dream
Earth
Evil
Family
Fey
Fire
Force
Good
Healing
Illusion
Knowledge
Law
Life
Luck
Magic
Mind
Ocean
Oracle
Plant
Protection
Storm
Sun
Time
Transformation
Travel
Trickery
Truth
War
Water
Wealth
Thoughts?

El Dorado
2010-07-14, 06:39 PM
If you can find them, the 2E Forgotten Realms books Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons could be a good resource as far as figuring which gods get which spheres.

You could also restrict the spontaneous healing based on major and minor access. For example, a cleric with minor access to the healing sphere might only be able to spontaneously cast cure spells up to 4th level.

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-14, 07:01 PM
If you can find them, the 2E Forgotten Realms books Faiths & Avatars and Powers & Pantheons could be a good resource as far as figuring which gods get which spheres.

I have both in my collection (somewhere...) so I should be able to assist with sphere allocation when the time comes.

nedz
2010-07-14, 07:43 PM
I think that its probably easier to use the Spontanious casting rules from UA and then have the player justify their choice of spells (in downtime) given their choice of deity.

However, if you want to do this via the spheres route you could consider something like this :-
The cleric starts with 1 minor sphere which matches their 1 domain.
At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the choose to do one of the following
- Choose a new domain
- Expand an existing domain into a minor sphere
- Expand an existing minor sphere into a major sphere

The numbers may need tuning, but they could end up with 2 major spheres and 1 minor sphere with the values given.

Notes:
A domain gives you a granted power and the knowledge of 1 spell per spell level.
A minor sphere gives you the ability to prepare spells from a wider set of related spells of 4th level or less.
A major sphere gives you the ability to prepare spells from a wider set of related spells of any level.

Caliphbubba
2010-07-15, 07:35 AM
How about 2 major and 2 minor spheres? That seems balanced, I think, if there's the right number of spells per spheres.

Spontaneous casting: well, how about you can spontaneously cast your major spheres, but have to prepare your minor ones?


Anyway, perhaps we should really start looking at distributing spells on spheres first, then check how many there are per sphere.

I can get behind this idea. that's a good variety of spells and a nice perk for your Major spheres.

Coplantor
2010-07-15, 08:41 AM
Maybe you could use a pont buy for spheres, much like 2nd ed Players Option: Skills & Powers did. Major spheres cost X, Minor cost Y and you can even adjust cost for spheres that are obviously stronger than others.

Theodoxus
2010-07-15, 08:55 AM
I think that its probably easier to use the Spontanious casting rules from UA and then have the player justify their choice of spells (in downtime) given their choice of deity.

However, if you want to do this via the spheres route you could consider something like this :-
The cleric starts with 1 minor sphere which matches their 1 domain.
At 3rd level, and every 3 levels thereafter, the choose to do one of the following
- Choose a new domain
- Expand an existing domain into a minor sphere
- Expand an existing minor sphere into a major sphere

The numbers may need tuning, but they could end up with 2 major spheres and 1 minor sphere with the values given.

Notes:
A domain gives you a granted power and the knowledge of 1 spell per spell level.
A minor sphere gives you the ability to prepare spells from a wider set of related spells of 4th level or less.
A major sphere gives you the ability to prepare spells from a wider set of related spells of any level.

Ooh, I like this. I'm already looking to borrow Fax's cleric - I think I'll just slide this right in there too. More options for my players :)

Zovc
2010-07-15, 09:02 AM
Well, aiming at 2 or 3 is probably the best idea. Favoured souls are tier 3.

And how weak they are really depends on how many spheres they get. If they get only one each, they'll only have a handful of spells to memorize. I don't think that's enough.

I think you should give the d20r cleric a good look. I have the feeling you will save yourself a lot of time an effort making a few minor tweaks.

To me, memorizing spells just doesn't seem like something a cleric should have to do mechanically.

Eldan
2010-07-15, 01:27 PM
As for the question which spheres to use:
I suggest we start with the core domains: those are the ones which will show up most often, and are probably most necessary. Then we can still tackle non-core ones.

Caliphbubba
2010-07-15, 01:57 PM
As for the question which spheres to use:
I suggest we start with the core domains: those are the ones which will show up most often, and are probably most necessary. Then we can still tackle non-core ones.

I'll likely start working on some domain>sphere conversions soon, but probably not before the start of next week.

Just to be clear, we're shooting for 4-ish spells per level?

Eldan
2010-07-15, 02:15 PM
I guess for a start, just going through all the books and writing down spells that fit a given sphere would be good.

Eldan
2010-07-17, 01:06 PM
Since I don't want this project to die, I started with one of the easiest spheres: Fire.

Here's all the fire cleric spells I could find:


Fire Sphere

Level 1:
Burning Hands (Core), Endure Elements (Core), Summon Monster I tww
Detect Fire (Frostburn)

Level 2:
Produce Flame (Core), Resist Energy (Core)
Aura against Flame (SpC), Balor Nimbus (SpC), Energized Shield, Lesser (SpC, Fire only)
Elemental Dart (DLCS, Fire only)
Lava Missile (Serpent Kingdoms)

Level 3:
Resist Energy (Core, Fire or Cold only), Continual Flame (Core)
Darkfire (SpC), Energized Shield (SpC, Fire only), Energy Vortex (SpC, Fire only), Flame of Faith (SpC), Resist Energy, Mass (SpC, Fire or Cold only), Weapon of Energy (SpC, Fire only)
Energy Aegis (PHBII, Fire only), Energy Vulnerability (PHBII, Fire only)
Palyn's Pyre (DLCS)

Level 4:
Wall of Fire (Core), Planar Ally, Lesser (Core, Fire subtype creatures only), Summon Monster IV (Fire, Magma or Steam Mephit only, Core)


Level 5:
Fire Shield (core), Flame Strike (Core), Summon Monster V (Fire elemental only, core)
Dragon Breath (SpC, fire only)
Wall of Magma (Sandstorm),
Blistering Radiance (CAr),
Lava Splash (SK)
Dispel Cold (Frostburn)
Stonefire (Shining South)


Level 6:
Fire Seeds (Core), Planar Ally (Core, Fire subtype creatures only), Summon Monster VI (Large Fire elemental only, Core)
Energy Immunity (SpC, fire only)

Level 7:
Fire Storm (Core), Summon Monster VII (Huge Fire elemental only, Core)

Level 8:
Incendiary Cloud (Core),
Summon Giants (Frostburn, Fire only)

Level 9:
Elemental Swarm (Core, Fire only), Summon Monster IX (Elder Fire elemental only)
Summon Elemental Monolith (SpC, Fire only)
Mantle of the Firey Soul (Sandstorm)
Divine Retribution (DLCS, fire only)
Erupt (Serpent Kingdoms)



Some levels (1, 4, 7, 8) clearly don't have enough spells, while level 3 has too many. Still, not a full and useful sphere, yet. Any ideas where to find more fire spells for clerics?


Books checked: Core, SpC, Complete Champion, Complete Mage, ECS, Magic of Eberron, Cityscape, Sandstorm,

Eldan
2010-07-17, 03:07 PM
The most iconic cleric one, perhaps: Healing.


Healing Sphere


Level 1:
Cure Light Wounds (Core), Deathwatch (Core)
Faith healing (SpC), Healthful Rest (SpC), Vigor, Lesser (SpC)

Level 2:
Cure Moderate Wounds (core), Remove Paralysis (core), Restoration, Lesser (core), Status (core)
Shared Healing (Magic of Eberron)
Conduit of Life (Complete Champion)
Close Wounds (SpC), Healing Lorecall (SpC), Protection from Negative Energy (SpC), Stabilize (SpC)

Level 3:
Cure Serious Wounds (core), Remove Blindness/Deafness (core), Remove Curse (core), Remove Disease (core)
Soul of Light (Dragon Magic)
Spark of Life (SpC), Vigor (SpC)


Level 4:
Cure Critical Wounds (core), Death Ward (core), Neutralize Poison (core)
Seed of Life (Complete Champion)
Channel Divine Health (Complete Mage)
Delay Death (SpC), Positive Energy Aura (SpC), Sheltered Vitality (SpC)


Level 5:
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (core), Raise Dead (core)
Revivify (SpC)
Darts of Life (complete champion), Healing circle (complete champion)
Renewed Vigor (PHBII)

Level 6:
Heal (core)
Revive Outsider (SpC), Vigorous Circle (SpC)

Level 7:
Regenerate (core), Resurrection (Core)
Renewal Pact (SpC), Restoration, Mass (SpC)

Level 8:
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (core)
Death Pact (SpC), Death Ward, Mass (SpC),

Level 9:
Heal, Mass (core), True Resurrection (Core)

[/SPOILER]

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-17, 04:05 PM
Some levels (1, 4, 7, 8) clearly don't have enough spells, while level 3 has too many. Still, not a full and useful sphere, yet. Any ideas where to find more fire spells for clerics?

Complete Divine has flame of faith (3rd), energy vortex (fire only, 4th), and dragon breath (5th). This site (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndLive/FindSpell.php) should help with searching for spells for various spheres.

Eldan
2010-07-17, 04:11 PM
Yeah, I already have those, from the Spell Compendium. I've added a few more books, so that's better. Still, levels 7 and 8 only have 1 spell each, and levels 1 and 4 only 2.

Fax Celestis
2010-07-17, 04:12 PM
When I made spell lists per domain for the d20r cleric, I went with three spells for first through fourth, two spells for fifth through eighth, and one spell for ninth.

Eldan
2010-07-17, 04:39 PM
Actually, I thought I could perhaps offer a few more than strictly necessary, because not everyone might have all books, then add a clause:

"If more than X spells of level Y are offered, choose X of that level."

Gadora
2010-07-17, 05:20 PM
I found some more Cleric spells for the Fire sphere. Also, you might want to include Summon Monster III-IX as they can summon elementals (except IV, which summons mephits).


Level 1
Detect Fire (Frostburn)

Level 2
Elemental Dart (DLCS, fire only)
Lava Missile (SK)
Aura against Fire (MaFR)

Level 3
Palin's Pyre (DLCS)
Darkfire (MaFR)

Level 5
Blistering Radiance (CAr)
Lava Splash (SK)
Dispel Cold (Frostburn)
Dispel Fire (Frostburn)
Stonefire (Shining South)

Level 8
Summon Giants (Frostburn, Fire Giant only)

Level 9
Divine Retribution (DLCS, fire only)
Erupt (SK)


Books checked: Underdark, Complete Arcane, Races of the Wild, Races of the Dragon, Races of Destiny, DragonLance Campaign Setting, Heroes of Battle, Complete Adventurer, Libris Mortis, Heroes of Horror, Tome of Magic, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, Serpent Kingdoms, Lords of Madness, Magic of Faerun, Dragon Magic, Races of Faerun, Frostburn, Miniatures Handbook, Races of Stone, Unapproachable East, Shining South, Savage Species

Eldan
2010-07-17, 05:29 PM
Thanks, that helps with some of the holes.

Set
2010-07-17, 07:37 PM
To fill in holes, there's always that cheap tactic used by the Domains themselves of saying 'Summon Monster or Nature's Ally X (only to summon fire elementals / mephits / fire subtype critters / etc.)'

Eldan
2010-07-18, 08:01 AM
Hmm. True enough. Added.

Eldan
2010-07-20, 05:09 AM
Don't have my books with me, but some free time right now, so I'll just go over the core spells and fill in non-core later.

Air Sphere

Level 1:
Obscuring Mist (core), Endure Elements (core, electricity only)
Updraft (SpC)

Level 2:
Wind Wall (core), Resist Energy (Core, electricity only)
Lesser Energized Shield (SpC, electricity only)
Thin air (Frostburn)

Level 3:
Gaseous Form (core), Protection from Energy (Core, electricity only), Summon Monster III (Core, Small Air elemental only)
Air Breathing (SpC), Downdraft (SpC), Energized Shield (SpC, electricity only), Energy Vortex (SpC, electricity only),
Energy Aegis (PHBII, electricity only), Energy Vulnerability (SpC, electricity only)

Level 4:
Air Walk (core), Summon Monster IV (Core, Air, Dust or Ice mephit only), Lesser Planar Ally (Core, air only)

Level 5:
Control Winds (core), Summon Monster V (Core, Medium Air elemental only),
Boreal Wind (Frostburn)
Flaywind Burst (Sandstorm)

Level 6:
Chain lightning (core), Planar Ally (Core, Air only), Summon Monster VI (core, large air elemental only)
Energy Immunity (SpC, electricity only)

Level 7:
Control Weather (core), Summon Monster VII (core, huge air elemental or Invisible stalker only)

Level 8:
Whirlwind (core), Greater Planar Ally (core, air only), Summon Monster VIII (Greater Air elemental only)
Stormrage (SpC9

Level 9:
Elemental Swarm (core, air only), Summon Monster IX (core, elder air elemental only)
Summon Elemental Monolith (SpC, air only)


Animal Sphere:

Level 1:
Calm animal (core), Summon nature's ally I (core, animals only)

Level 2:
Hold animal (core), Bear's Endurance (core), Bull's Strength (core), Cat's Grace (core), Summon Nature's ally 2 (core, animals only)

Level 3:
Dominate animal (core), Summon Nature's Ally III (core, animals only)

Level 4:
Summon Nature's Ally IV (core, animals only), giant vermin (core)

Level 5:
Commune with nature (core), Insect Plague (core), Summon Nature's Ally V (core, animals only)

Level 6:
Summon Nature's Ally VI (core, animals only), Mass Bear's Endurance (core), Mass Bull's Strength (core), Mass Cat's Grace (core)

Level 7:
Summon Nature's Ally VII (core, animals only), Animal Shapes (core),

Level 8:
Summon Nature's Ally VIII (core, animals only)

Level 9:
Shapechange (core),