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Viking_Mage
2010-07-14, 02:18 PM
Have you ever gotten a PC to sign their soul away in a Faustian Pact?
I managed to, by overselling, but I did it.
Here's the problem, now the players want to see the contract to find a loop hole, but I'm not a lawyer. How should I proceed here?

Viking_Mage
2010-07-14, 02:21 PM
This is a rough draft, and general outline, of the contract. <Translated from Infernal>

The Baatezu of the Nine Hells of Baator promises, in exchange for one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan)'s soul, delivery of Keshou Takei on (fulfilled date), guaranteed survival to delivery of said Keshou Takei to the Ox Clan in Balfsharia, and a magical upgrade to a weapon of choice of one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan).

a.) Delivery of Keshou Takei: Keshou Takei will be delivered to one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan) on [specified and fulfilled date]. However, Keshou Takei will be under an illusion to appear as a different type of sword in order to remove any legal interferences of the Material Plane. One Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan) will be written into the owner of Keshou Takei (Maximus Crassus)'s will. Upon the owner's (Maximus Crassus) death, of which the infernal powers of the nine hells will have no part, that is, the owner (Maximus Crassus) will die of either: natural causes, material plane interference, interference of the deities from (Olympus, Hades, Asgard, Jotunheim, Muspelheim, Niflheim, Vanaheim, or Tartarus), interference from the other planes of existence (the Far Realm, Celestia, Bytopia, Elysium, Beastlands, Arborea, Ysgard, Limbo, Pandemonium, Abyss, Carceri, Hades, Gehenna, Archon, Mechanus, Arcadia, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, the Plane of Shadow, the elemental plane of fire, the elemental plane of water, the elemental plane of air, the elemental plane of earth, or the Outlands), none of which the infernal powers of Baator will sponsor or instigate into action, a regular sword, under an illusion to appear as Keshou Takei, will be bequeathed to one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan). Instructions on how to exchange the illusions will be included with both the real Keshou Takei and the fake Keshou Takei.

b.) Guaranteed Survival: One Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan) will not be stopped from delivering Keshou Takei to the Ox Clan in Balfsharia by death. Either his death will be prevented by infernal intervention or he will be immediately raised from the dead upon his death.

a. Signing this contract waives one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan)’s right to refuse a resurrection from the infernal powers.

c.) Magical upgrade: As a one-time gesture, the Baatezu of the Nine Hells will magically enchant a single weapon of one Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan)’s choice. One Karasu Choi (Choi Karasu of the Ox Clan)’s choice of weapon is his manriki-gusari <spiked chain>. The enchantment of choice is a harmonious enchantment, enabling the weapon to better work with ally’s of the wielder in combat.


The Keshou Takei is a minor artifact plot coupon which is mechanically useless to the person who made the deal. Not only is its main purpose, the kill goblins basically as a free action, useless in this campaign (goblins are no where to be found), but it also requires the wielder to be Lawful Good, the signee is Chaotic Good.

Interestingly, due to a large, complex (multi-campaign) plot from the lawful entities of several planes, the devils merely want the plot coupon delivered to the Ox Clan referenced in the contract. The individual soul harvester devil, given nearly carte blanche to make sure the devil's plan is fulfilled, angled for the soul, both to increase his own personal quota and as a knowledgable salesman - never give someone something for nothing. The mark usually refuses the gift.

Volomon
2010-07-14, 02:22 PM
Depends what did he receive for his soul? I would say its ultimately up to you you can have him roll an Int check to see if he's even smart enough to find a hole. Whatever he rolls doesn't matter ultimately it's up to you. The rolls just to give you a reason to say no or yes. In other words I wouldn't bother actually writing one out.

If what he received was ridiculous I would make him pay for it.

Beorn080
2010-07-14, 02:22 PM
You can request to view a copy of the Faustian deal on the 8th circle of the Abyss. For our clients lacking in planar traveling abilities, simply speak the name of your representative devil three times while standing in a circle of powdered silver. We will provide complimentary travel to the first circle of the Abyss.

Thank you for selling your soul to Devil, Inc. We appreciate your business.

Kylarra
2010-07-14, 02:22 PM
Depending on how spiteful you want to be, I'd possibly put a clause that prevents them from reading the contract after signing, since they were dumb enough to sign without reading it first...

woodenbandman
2010-07-14, 05:13 PM
I bartered for the exchange of a soul that wasn't mine, promising to provide a suitable replacement soul within one week's time, and put forth my own soul as collateral. So... yeah, I guess you could say I've entered a faustian pact.

Stompy
2010-07-14, 06:05 PM
This may help (http://www.tabula-rasa.info/Roleplaying/BaatezuContract.html) with the contract writing.

I especially like these clauses:
* Any of the undersigned has the right to seek the advice and counsel of an external party regarding the contents of the Agreement before agreeing to the terms set forth in the Agreement. In the event that any undersigned party signs the Agreement without seeking such advice or counsel, it is because the undersigned has agreed to forgo such advice or counsel,

* The obligation of the Agreement extends through events such as, but not limited to, acts of war; insurrection; civil disobedience; natural and unnatural disaster; pestilence; plague; famine; bodily, spiritual or emotional change; bodily, spiritual or emotional transfer; bodily, spiritual or emotional domination; bodily, spiritual or emotional absence; bodily, spiritual or emotional death; insanity or poverty. However, acts of a being recognised as a divinity by the Eight or their legally designated representatives may nullify the Agreement.

PId6
2010-07-14, 06:54 PM
You can request to view a copy of the Faustian deal on the 8th circle of the Abyss Nine Hells. For our clients lacking in planar traveling abilities, simply speak the name of your representative devil three times while standing in a circle of powdered silver. We will provide complimentary travel to the first circle of the Abyss Nine Hells.

Thank you for selling your soul to Devil, Inc. We appreciate your business.
Fixed. And I agree with this method completely.

Another_Poet
2010-07-14, 10:50 PM
I wouldn't draft an actual contract unless you are a really good writer and can make it amusing.

Instead I would proceed through this process to determine if they find a loophole:

1) Would it make the plot awesome if there is a loophole? If yes, go to (6); if no, go to (2).

2) How many high-Int devils worked on drafting the contract?

a) Just 1! 5% chance of loophole.
b) 3 of course! 3% chance of loophole.
c) 500, and they double checked their work. 1% chance of loophole.

3) Roll the % chance. On a failure, go to (7). On a success go to (4).

4) Make a DC 20 Int check. On a failure, go to (7). On a success go to (5).

5) YOU FOUND LOOPHOLE!!!1

6) You don't find a loophole, but you have heard of a great cleric in (faraway quest destination) who has devoted his life to the study of devils. Perhaps he can help you....

7) There is no loophole except lichdom.

Thiyr
2010-07-14, 11:20 PM
Don't know what I can do to help you, but I have managed to get a player to do something similar to a Faustian Pact. I got him to "lend" me bits and peices of his soul. Using half-truths, I convinced him that it would give him power to help defeat the ultraloth which killed his wife (the major driving motive of the character. Otherwise he was something of a playboy, sleeping with anything that moved. Oh yea, he was also a Favored Soul of Sharess.) Convinced him that this wasn't quite the same as selling your soul. More like lending parts of it out for minor power, typically used as the "test run" for the full pact. Sharess would, indeed get the soul, full and intact, and in the meantime he would be getting a good boost. Of course, I didn't mention that Sharess would be getting the soul full and intact, but twisted into something much darker. Nor did I mention that Sharess would be getting it much longer after he died. But she would indeed be getting it, after it was used, abused, twisted, and recovered countless times. It would be whole and intact, but much worse off than it would be otherwise.

The best part: I was a player in the game, not the DM (though it was all DM approved, and the other player knew what I was trying to do). I was plaing a LE aasimar warlock. we both pay 1k exp and got a least invocation, and he got a little darker, constant nudges to do the thing that would be easier, even if it were morally reprehensible. Something I had wanted to do with the character from the start, in spite of none of the other characters having an easy-to-push motive. Just goes to show, the best lies are usually the truth.

Yukitsu
2010-07-15, 12:54 AM
The best way to avoid loopholes is ironically to keep it fairly simple, and avoid words with two meanings.

Fcannon
2010-07-15, 01:05 AM
If you're feeling lazy, you can always just abstract it away.

DM:Give me a Decipher Script check.
Player:19
DM:You don't find a loophole.

*player goes out, does as much preparation as possible, tries again*

Player:Okay, I got 47 this time
DM:You don't find a loophole.
Player:*glares*
DM:Come on, they've been at this for millenia.

Actually, "Find Loophole in Infernal Contract" sounds like a pretty good Epic Skill Use. (yes, I know that this isn't really what Decipher Script is for.

veovius
2010-07-15, 03:26 AM
This may help (http://www.tabula-rasa.info/Roleplaying/BaatezuContract.html) with the contract writing.

I especially like these clauses:
* Any of the undersigned has the right to seek the advice and counsel of an external party regarding the contents of the Agreement before agreeing to the terms set forth in the Agreement. In the event that any undersigned party signs the Agreement without seeking such advice or counsel, it is because the undersigned has agreed to forgo such advice or counsel,

* The obligation of the Agreement extends through events such as, but not limited to, acts of war; insurrection; civil disobedience; natural and unnatural disaster; pestilence; plague; famine; bodily, spiritual or emotional change; bodily, spiritual or emotional transfer; bodily, spiritual or emotional domination; bodily, spiritual or emotional absence; bodily, spiritual or emotional death; insanity or poverty. However, acts of a being recognised as a divinity by the Eight or their legally designated representatives may nullify the Agreement.

WIN! I love it! I have to use it sometime......But that's not the loophole, in case you haven't found it yet. It is amazing when you do see it, though! Took me a while, even while knowing the outcome.

Search for sight....

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-15, 07:46 AM
Two campaigns ago, I ran a game where devils were the main baddies. Around level 6 or so, the pyromaniac blaster sorcerer noticed he was becoming more and more useless, since their enemies were starting to adapt to the party and getting fire immunity or high resistance was easy. He was just starting to consider changing his focus when he happened upon a staff dropped by their enemies. These enemies had no other items whatsoever, but he didn't find that suspicious at all.

A few days later, it started talking to him. "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a staff of wealth and taste." :smallamused: It offered to power his spells with hellfire to ignore resistance and immunity to start with, no strings attached. Every few weeks in-game, it'd have another chat, offering him more benefits in exchange for a tiny drawback--one fewer cantrip per day, for instance, or -1 HP. The character started accepting these more and more readily while the player just kept giving me death glares, waiting for the other shoe to drop.

Eventually, the deal came to something like "get a Holocaust Disciple as a cohort for free [when he would need another level to pick that up with Leadership] and change from chaotic good to chaotic neutral," the character snapping it up and the player facepalming, and from there he quickly spiraled down. He never actually betrayed the party, though he came close, and when he revealed all this to pull the party out of danger one time, the other players had had no idea, IC or OOC. Their expressions made it all worthwhile. :smallcool:

Altarus
2010-07-15, 10:23 AM
That's a solid pact up there on the 2nd post.

You forgot Quasi-Elemental and Para-Elemental planes, and the Positive and Negative Energy Planes. Any interference from those is fair game.

Another way to escape. It only mentions prevention from death. Simply have his soul sucked out and placed somewhere, and keep the body alive. You'll be comatose but hey, your body is not dead. That doesn't violate the contract in any way. And they can't do anything about is since it only specifies that

a) They'll prevent your death.
b) They'll only deliver the word.
c) They'll enchant a weapon.

Beorn080
2010-07-15, 10:25 AM
Fixed. And I agree with this method completely.

Aye. The way I see it, the Nine Hells should be potentially safe. However, its is a bureaucratic hell where you need permits for everything, even getting permits. It should be possible to reach the contract office safely by getting the proper permits, but no mortal character lives that long. Plus, doing anything wrong or without a permit results in being attacked for violating the rules of the place.

Psyx
2010-07-15, 11:07 AM
My answer would be 'I'm a GM, not a contract lawyer' and for it to be settled via use of Decipher Script, Profession (lawyer) and a splash of Knowledge (planes).


"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a staff of wealth and taste."

Classy. :smallcool:

I'd have drop kicked it into the nearest volcano at that point, though!

PairO'Dice Lost
2010-07-15, 11:11 AM
"Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a staff of wealth and taste."

Classy. :smallcool:

I'd have drop kicked it into the nearest volcano at that point, though!

Oh, he really wanted to, but the staff had a respectable Ego score and politely told him that if he mentioned anything to the rest of the party, there would be...repercussions. The character being a low-Wis do-everything-for-power type, he never had a chance.

Viking_Mage
2010-07-15, 12:55 PM
Here is what has happened so far, the Devils have in fact carried out their part of the deal. Maximus Crassus died of old age. The swords were delivered. The spiked chain was enchanted. The signee has already been targeted by infernal intervention to keep him alive, though the devils are now going to be switching to simple raise dead spells.

This is what I'm thinking about salvaging the deal. Find the original contract in the 9th layer of the Nine Hells (Asmodeus is the archduke the soul harvester was working for) and find a way to destroy it (a pretty difficult task, obviously) -AND- destroy the copy in Mechanus where it is filed for the benefits of the Kolayrut.

Tyndmyr
2010-07-15, 01:51 PM
My players have learned not to take deals from known evil beings. Ever. The last offer involved being given 150,000 gold pieces for a lock of his hair. He refused...which is a shame. Simulacra shenanigans are always a blast.

You'd think the same philosophy would apply to wishes, but no. The last time, he wished for eyes that made him run faster. At least make an effort to come up with something that can't be screwed with...

NowhereMan583
2010-07-15, 01:56 PM
[...] "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a staff of wealth and taste." [...]

This whole thing is pretty brilliant. I might have to give one of my players a similar item next time I run a campaign.